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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    MoutonRustique's Avatar

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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    Imo, the math works out better with the item bonuses following the same progression as for the other big 3 slots (+1 for every 5 levels). The problem is that other arm slot items don't provide a bonus on that same level, which is why I've honestly considered just making it a passive effect of all arm slot items (which works with the level math, because the IAoP and BoA are both level 6 items, effectively making them the arm slot equivalent of the generic magic armor/weapon).
    Something that's almost never talked about is embracing the [christmas tree] : remove from the neck-slot item the "all NADS" bonuses and distribute those amongst the other item-slots.

    Reflex bonuses come from boots and cloaks.
    Fortitude bonuses come from belts and bracers.
    Will bonuses come from amulets and head-gear.

    Or something - you could then spread more love around, with a built-in justification of having these items grant the "regular" bonus as a baseline (much like weapons).

    In a game where "power" comes from "acquisition", something like this could work (of course, it's pretty counter to the regularly accepted 4e-isms).
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    I've just given all arm slots a +1/2/3 (or 1/2/4) item bonus to damage rolls by tier.

    The ones that focus on it give an extra +1/2/3 (or (1/2/2), but that is a smaller benefit that other arm items become tempting.

    This also keeps items like the Radiant Sword interesting.

    ---

    Weapon Focus or the variants are boring but effective.

    If you are ok with minor homebrew, what I'd do is what expertise feats did. They have a boring yet effective part plus an slightly more interesting kicker.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by MoutonRustique View Post
    Something that's almost never talked about is embracing the [christmas tree] : remove from the neck-slot item the "all NADS" bonuses and distribute those amongst the other item-slots.
    I could see this working in an online game where the tracking is automatic, but I can see it being problematic by increasing the amount of tracking and potential for errors in bookkeeping. Of course, this could be solved with a smart character sheet that does the math for you.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    I've just given all arm slots a +1/2/3 (or 1/2/4) item bonus to damage rolls by tier.

    The ones that focus on it give an extra +1/2/3 (or (1/2/2), but that is a smaller benefit that other arm items become tempting.

    This also keeps items like the Radiant Sword interesting.
    This is far more appealing to me, but doesn't address the discrepancy of stacking static bonuses.

    Weapon Focus or the variants are boring but effective.

    If you are ok with minor homebrew, what I'd do is what expertise feats did. They have a boring yet effective part plus an slightly more interesting kicker.
    It's a thought.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post

    If you are ok with minor homebrew, what I'd do is what expertise feats did. They have a boring yet effective part plus an slightly more interesting kicker.
    The elemental +3/4 feats from HotEC all do that to some extent, but it's always predicated on taking damage from an attack of the right variety. But it does point in a direction you can go in.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    I could see this working in an online game where the tracking is automatic, but I can see it being problematic by increasing the amount of tracking and potential for errors in bookkeeping. Of course, this could be solved with a smart character sheet that does the math for you.
    If ALL the neck items give that bonus then you should be able to create a feat in Character Builder that will negate say 2 of the bonuses so you can distribute them on other items. Actually that one feat could create stat mods for all the item types you mentioned to offer the bonuses from other slots. If you want to keep it simple it is an all or nothing type of thing. You have to give ALL boots the + Ref bonus or ALL arm slots +Will (or whatever). Otherwise you could go through and modify each and every item to be custom, but nobody wants to do that.

    All that just to say that this can be done in a way that negates all the extra tracking you are talking about...with the tools we have now.

    Pretty sure this can all be done. I have not done exactly this, but I did create a feat that was earned by the rogue in our group to allow him to use a long sword as a light blade so now in char builder it will properly calculate his bonuses for a long sword and also qualify that item for use for any power that requires a light blade. That fixed a lot of book keeping issues with the powers for me.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    To answer the OP: I use the DM Cheat Sheet from Slyflourish for everything. I then adjust number of monsters and sometimes HP based no who shows up for the game / optimization level of my party. In my home game I don't use EXP because I don't like it as a method for leveling up, but online I do use EXP. I pretty rarely tinker around that much with the base math assumptions of the game as that tends to lead to issues with player choices being invalidated / drastically different from the base rules. One of the only exceptions to this is Boss fights, but that is a detailed enough topic that I don't want to discuss it here as it would be a tangent.

    I will note that you say that 'in my experience encounters take 5-8 rounds where I want it to take 4-6 rounds instead." A 4 round combat is EXTREMELY long in my games. Nearly every combat is done in 2-3 rounds. If you are taking 5-8 rounds it is likely a measure of optimization/experience of the players not matching your encounter design. There are a lot of things you can do to change some of the base assumptions of the game / houserule things but what you want to do and how well it works at your table will be pretty group specific.

    The thing that really speeds up game isn't math based, it is play based like others have suggested.

    A few things I use in my games:

    1) Initiative is openly displayed and everyone can see it at a glance. On R20 there is the initiative tracker, in real life I fold index cards in half, write a number on the card, and then pass them out to the players. That way a player can look and see we are on initiative 3 and they go on initiative 7.

    2) Expectations for why combat should be fast are made clear to the players. I sit my players down and have a chat with them. "So we all agree that we want to have combat and have the story constantly moving forward yes? We want to try to play combat with all the bells and whistles, but +1 damage here or there is really unlikely to make or break you, so don't sweat it." If you set the expectations that always moving forward through combat quickly is something everyone wants, everyone does what they can to try to achieve it.

    3) Especially in my higher level online games I have a certain statement that my players adhere to. "When your turn starts anything you say that isn't a description of your action, asking me a question, or hitting a macro/rolling dice comes into my ears as 'I delay'". If a player isn't ready to take their turn, they get delayed and we move to the next person. It sounds harsh, but if you did #2 well, you are unlikely to get any pushback and players will take their turns faster.

    4) 1 turn limit on 'but I forgot my Gloves of Ice damage bonus'. My players know that if it is initiative 6 and they forgot to add a damage bonus to the monster on initiative 3, don't ask to include it. Game altering, once a year style rewinds have happened before but are extremely rare and are exceptions to this rule made all the more notable by the fact that everyone is used to the rule.

    5) No calculating healing on your turn. Say you heal X and move on. You do not need the attention of the whole table while you roll healing word. If for some reason it becomes relevant that the next person in initiative order NEEDS to know how much health the heal healed for before taking their action, we might pause, but those situations are extremely rare.

    6) +Yes is openly displayed on the table. For example "+Yes for this fight is 45. That means the highest defense on the map is 45, so if you get above a 45 don't ask just assume you hit and if it is incorrect I'll interrupt you." You can also write a -No if you like, but frequently that is less important.

    7) Players have cheat sheets. I ask that every player have some form of keeping their math clear and concise. My wife has a single page spreadsheet that lists all of the math, conditionals and power uses of her level 30 barbarian. Another player has a grid he uses for all his conditional defenses. A third player has their typical 1st turns mapped out and a separate sheet for what to do after T1. All of those are acceptable.

    8) I do not use a DM screen and I use things like Burst dice that make the math quite transparent. Each of my PCs has a D20 they set next to their initiative flag. When I make a burst or blast or multiattack, I pick up their die and roll. "Ok, everyone, Close Burst 5, +21 vs Fortitude" and then roll a handful of dice. They can look at the dice as much as I can and do the math for themselves (especially if they have conditionals). I feel it also draws the player's attention in more because even if they aren't included they want to see if someone gets crit.

    9) As the DM I don't keep track of monster hit points, conditions on my monsters, what initiative flag goes with what monster, what conditions are on players, player hit points or player initiative. All of those things are either openly displayed or are duties split up around the party. One of the PCs tracks the damage different monsters have taken and will ask me 'is it bloodied or dead yet' if she feels the monster should be getting close. One of the players takes notes on what condition is applied to what monster and for how long. Another player tracks conditions on players and the player health (although she usually uses rough numbers for player health and the actual player does the detailed math). Another player keeps track of what monster goes on initiative 15 and which goes on initiative 6.

    Splitting up these roles within the party does 2 main things. First it allows for the players and the DM to not get dragged down by all of the different details and focus on moving forward. "How long is this daze on this guy?" is something I can ask if I have forgotten and someone at the table has a job that is just having an answer to that question. Secondly it keeps the players engaged when it isn't their turn. Everyone has something to do and so everyone keeps paying attention. There aren't as many moments where you forgot to interrupt two turns ago cause you spaced out, because you had to keep track of hp/conditions/initiative/etc.

    10) Once the dramatic question is answered, move on. If the combat in question was a matter of attrition, players can burn healing surges or powers to kill off remaining monsters. "Well, you guys have this in the bag, but those two soldiers are likely to take a chunk out of someone before they die. Someone burn me a healing surge and we will call this."

    11) As a DM my monsters all use the same dice for an encounter. If my monster has a d8 ranged weapon, d10 burst attack and a d12 melee weapon... yeah no. Everything in this fight uses d6s for damage, moving along. This is not important for online play. The correct correlation for online play is that all my monsters have clear monster math and all of their macros have all associated keywords.

    12) Handouts. I love them. If there is a complex skill challenge with 4-6 scenes, complications and varying goals, I am not explaining that verbally. I'm setting the scene and the stakes for them with description, handing them the handout and then answering questions. Complications are their own sheet of paper, cut up so I can hand them out one at a time to the party. Online this is even easier and I will change the handout as the players advance through whatever is going on. Any complicated terrain is introduced in a similar manner.

    13) Pre-rolls are more common the higher the level of the game gets IRL. I'm not going to look over your shoulder and make sure you ACTUALLY rolled that natural 20. If you want another PC to watch you do a huge batch of d20 rolls where you know you have like roll 3 times and take the higher and are likely to crit, ok. But if at any point I am worried that I NEED to watch you in order to make sure you aren't cheating, you have one foot out of the door of my game. Cheating isn't tolerated, and without that I don't need to worry nearly as much about the players and their dice rolls.
    Interested in giving 4e D&D a shot? All players, new and old, are welcome to join us over at the Guild Living Campaign on Roll20. Feel free to post on the thread or PM me for more information.

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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Wasteomana View Post
    8) I do not use a DM screen and I use things like Burst dice that make the math quite transparent. Each of my PCs has a D20 they set next to their initiative flag. When I make a burst or blast or multiattack, I pick up their die and roll. "Ok, everyone, Close Burst 5, +21 vs Fortitude" and then roll a handful of dice. They can look at the dice as much as I can and do the math for themselves (especially if they have conditionals). I feel it also draws the player's attention in more because even if they aren't included they want to see if someone gets crit.

    9) As the DM I don't keep track of monster hit points, conditions on my monsters, what initiative flag goes with what monster, what conditions are on players, player hit points or player initiative. All of those things are either openly displayed or are duties split up around the party. One of the PCs tracks the damage different monsters have taken and will ask me 'is it bloodied or dead yet' if she feels the monster should be getting close. One of the players takes notes on what condition is applied to what monster and for how long. Another player tracks conditions on players and the player health (although she usually uses rough numbers for player health and the actual player does the detailed math). Another player keeps track of what monster goes on initiative 15 and which goes on initiative 6.

    Splitting up these roles within the party does 2 main things. First it allows for the players and the DM to not get dragged down by all of the different details and focus on moving forward. "How long is this daze on this guy?" is something I can ask if I have forgotten and someone at the table has a job that is just having an answer to that question. Secondly it keeps the players engaged when it isn't their turn. Everyone has something to do and so everyone keeps paying attention. There aren't as many moments where you forgot to interrupt two turns ago cause you spaced out, because you had to keep track of hp/conditions/initiative/etc.
    Although my desire is actually math based, on top of the play-based slowdown that happens in all games with a lot of choices, these two are definitely things I'm considering adopting.

    (A bunch of the others I already do. Some won't mesh with my play style.)

    10) Once the dramatic question is answered, move on. If the combat in question was a matter of attrition, players can burn healing surges or powers to kill off remaining monsters. "Well, you guys have this in the bag, but those two soldiers are likely to take a chunk out of someone before they die. Someone burn me a healing surge and we will call this."
    Hmm... not sure about this one, but I may try it out.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    Although my desire is actually math based, on top of the play-based slowdown that happens in all games with a lot of choices, these two are definitely things I'm considering adopting.

    (A bunch of the others I already do. Some won't mesh with my play style.)



    Hmm... not sure about this one, but I may try it out.
    Making the Math clearer to the players by not using monster stat blocks / rolling in the open / them knowing roughly what hp/defenses look like in general does make things go faster and is tangentially math related.

    As far as the dramatic question thing is concerned, think of it like a movie. You can also take a note of when you feel the dramatic question has been answered and ask for the group to take a 5 min break. Write down everyone's health/surges remaining/etc. Then see if it changed drastically by the time they played it out. I find that it is basically a surge worth or maybe 2 surges worth of actual fighting left after the dramatic question is answered but that can take a ton of time and it lets the action die down a bit. The players typically notice when they have the upper hand and the playing out of the rest of the fight becomes routine.

    That said, it might go all the way down to the wire sometimes. Just depends on the fight. You also have to take into account the fact that "reduce all monsters to 0 hp" is frequently not the only win condition in my games.
    Interested in giving 4e D&D a shot? All players, new and old, are welcome to join us over at the Guild Living Campaign on Roll20. Feel free to post on the thread or PM me for more information.

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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    If combat goes on so long that the encounter can't be ended within player tolerances, why not just cut enemies hit points even further? Or introduce a morale system and have enemies flee when they lose a combined HP amount?
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Each Normal monster is worth 5 morale. Minions are worth 1, Elites 10 and Solos 25.

    When a creature is Bloodied or Shaken it no longer contributes morale. When a creature dies, it penalizes morale by an amount equal to its value instead.

    A Morale check (which is a saving throw) occurs when

    a) If at the start of a round morale is 0 or under and has decreased since the last round.
    b) The current commander or leader of a group is defeated.
    c) The first time an ally becomes Routed each round. Note that is usually triggered by one of the above conditions.

    On failure they become Shaken. Shaken creatures seek to safely disengage rather than attack. A Shaken creature who fails a morale save becomes Routed, and seeks to run away even at risk of opportunity attacks. Routed creatures who are cornered will attack.

    You can recover from morale status via a Rally check. A Rally check is a saving throw. On success, if you are shaken you are no longer shaken, and if you are routed you are instead shaken.

    A leader once per encounter can make a social skill check as an action and grant a Rally check to each ally with a bonus equal to 1/10th their check result.

    The first time you are healed past bloodied, a creature can Rally check. In addition, if the enemy side suffers a Morale Check you can make a Rally check first. This could prevent a simultanious Morale Check (for example, both sides are reduced below 0; each side has both a Morale Check and Rally Check. The Rally Checks cause Shaken creatures to recover, boosting each sides morale over 0. You now skip the Morale Check.)

    Soldiers and Defenders make each Rally/Morale check twice and pick the better result. Creatures who are enraged or similar ignore Morale checks.

    ---

    crufty still. Needs work.

    The idea is a half-defeated side starts crumbling. Half the standing creatures become shaken, then half the shaken become routed, unless the battle turns around.

    I am unhappy with it because it is a bit too much rolling and bookkeeping, and it doesn't scale well.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    I am unhappy with it because it is a bit too much rolling and bookkeeping, and it doesn't scale well.
    A good start for a morale framework for a game where there is no DM, but to me it seems like a good DM could easily make this call on the fly without any dice just by watching how things are going.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Is there a way to find a relationship between XP budget and HP shared between monsters? Like when half the encounters HP is lost and they don't have a leader they flee.
    "When we substitute reflection for emotion we find that the answer to the question is far from simple."
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  14. - Top - End - #44
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by natiels View Post
    A good start for a morale framework for a game where there is no DM, but to me it seems like a good DM could easily make this call on the fly without any dice just by watching how things are going.
    Yeah, unless the PCs have henchmen/hirelings/followers/troops that also need to check for morale, so that morale is an issue on both sides of the fight, systemizing morale instead of using ad hoc adjudication is unnecessary.

    On the other hand, if the PCs do have henchmen/hirelings/followers/troops then you do need a system for morale determination, because DMs shouldn't take away PC resources unpredictably (when the troops run away).

    And if you have a morale system for henchmen etc. you need it for team monster as well, to prevent unconscious bias from making team monster braver than the help.
    Last edited by Beoric; 2018-02-23 at 09:03 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Each Normal monster is worth 5 morale. Minions are worth 1, Elites 10 and Solos 25.

    When a creature is Bloodied or Shaken it no longer contributes morale. When a creature dies, it penalizes morale by an amount equal to its value instead.

    A Morale check (which is a saving throw) occurs when

    a) If at the start of a round morale is 0 or under and has decreased since the last round.
    b) The current commander or leader of a group is defeated.
    c) The first time an ally becomes Routed each round. Note that is usually triggered by one of the above conditions.

    On failure they become Shaken. Shaken creatures seek to safely disengage rather than attack. A Shaken creature who fails a morale save becomes Routed, and seeks to run away even at risk of opportunity attacks. Routed creatures who are cornered will attack.

    You can recover from morale status via a Rally check. A Rally check is a saving throw. On success, if you are shaken you are no longer shaken, and if you are routed you are instead shaken.

    A leader once per encounter can make a social skill check as an action and grant a Rally check to each ally with a bonus equal to 1/10th their check result.

    The first time you are healed past bloodied, a creature can Rally check. In addition, if the enemy side suffers a Morale Check you can make a Rally check first. This could prevent a simultanious Morale Check (for example, both sides are reduced below 0; each side has both a Morale Check and Rally Check. The Rally Checks cause Shaken creatures to recover, boosting each sides morale over 0. You now skip the Morale Check.)

    Soldiers and Defenders make each Rally/Morale check twice and pick the better result. Creatures who are enraged or similar ignore Morale checks.

    ---

    crufty still. Needs work.

    The idea is a half-defeated side starts crumbling. Half the standing creatures become shaken, then half the shaken become routed, unless the battle turns around.

    I am unhappy with it because it is a bit too much rolling and bookkeeping, and it doesn't scale well.
    Why not just use the old AD&D/D&D rules for morale and just come up with some fitting numbers to use for any given enemies morale value?
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  16. - Top - End - #46
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Is there a way to find a relationship between XP budget and HP shared between monsters? Like when half the encounters HP is lost and they don't have a leader they flee.
    This is pretty much the dramatic question thing.

    "Will the goblins band together and defeat the heroes?". If they don't think they can, then the dramatic question is done and you mop up and move on. The problem with having a system for it is that there are so many difficult to define variables that making a complex enough system to properly represent all the variables will likely cause the combat to slow down which sorta defeats the initial purpose of doing it at all.
    Interested in giving 4e D&D a shot? All players, new and old, are welcome to join us over at the Guild Living Campaign on Roll20. Feel free to post on the thread or PM me for more information.

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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by ScrivenerofDoom View Post
    Emphasis mine.

    This is the big problem: Players.

    Managing combat is about managing your players or, ideally, teaching them how to manage their character sheets. The really obnoxious ones, of course, blame it on 4E when they choose to ignore the simple fact that this is the only edition where ALL the information required to run a PC actually appears on the character sheet in front of them (and if you don't have the offline tools, you really need to ask for them - hint, hint).
    I've always found that a big part of it is setting the right character at the right level for the right player. I've even been known to create a custom-designed character sheet for players who resonated with relatively simple characters. Being able to see an Elementalist's entire combat block on an index card saved about thirty seconds to a minute per turn from that player - and that adds up fast. And generally the people who want simple characters find Slayers, Scouts, and Elementalists to be wonderful - but the presentation to be confusing.

    It's a huge timesaver especially when it comes to remembering conditions.
    We tend to just stick paperclips on the minis as a reminder - with red for blooded and most of the other colours being ad hoc.
    Currently in playtesting, now with optional rules for a cover based sci-fi shooter.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    Quote Originally Posted by neonchameleon View Post

    We tend to just stick paperclips on the minis as a reminder - with red for blooded and most of the other colours being ad hoc.
    We use soda rings. Like on a plastic 2 liter bottle, there is a little colored ring below the cap. Pop that off and its 1in in diameter. Easily loops around the arm or weapon of a mini and you can put it around a medium sized token for marking other things. I have a whole bag, they are great.
    Interested in giving 4e D&D a shot? All players, new and old, are welcome to join us over at the Guild Living Campaign on Roll20. Feel free to post on the thread or PM me for more information.

    You can also follow me on Youtube. I am currently working on a series of videos aimed at helping Dungeon Masters from all editions work at improving the craft that is being a DM with my series Beg Borrow and Steal.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Modifications for faster combat

    We used a program called 4e Turn Tracker (though you could probably do the same thing with an Excel spreadsheet), on a TV. Took a while for our DMs to get a hang of it, but having a list of all the conditions written out was definitely helpful.

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