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  1. - Top - End - #421
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Disney Becoming Blander?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Prescriptive and Proscriptive rules, both are bad for art, for art in this situation is finite even if its uncountable, instead of infinite and unlimited. Creating a world where art is limited is by the very definition a dangerous type of world.
    Is Liquor Box doing either, though? Markets tend to fill situations where they're not specifically barred, and sometimes even if they are. "Markets should decide" can be framed as prescriptive, but it can also be considered, "proscriptive" in the sense that what it really means is "don't take actions that would prevent a market from thriving," and neither in the sense that the market is what happens and Liquor Box is merely acknowledging reality in his statement. Before Karl Marx, before Adam Smith, art was already driven by a market where someone with power or resources got to decide what art was made and who could spend their lives making it, perhaps based on personal choice, or maybe on his perception of what the community's will was on the topic. Or God's.

    Prior to its neolithic revolution, or whatever event allows a particular society to move towards specialization of labor, I suppose most places created art without market--everyone worked to live, and in their spare time they could create art solely for the sake of creating, solely to their own tastes. After that point, I think that the natural tendency would be that art, like everything else, becomes more specialized. Even if it isn't market driven in the modern economic sense of art as barter, once art is no longer just a thing everyone does in their spare time, it becomes harder to avoid the influence of the community in deciding what art is made or who makes it. Even if the currency is just praise or social pressure, it will nonetheless be a system that puts restraints on art, precisely the kind you're arguing against. And I honestly can't think of how we'd achieve a system where art is truly free, as you define it.

  2. - Top - End - #422
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Movies and television!

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Well, I think a better alternative would be to consult with Mrs. 2D8HP, who has a great interest in film making (but as she says "Unfortunately I'm not related to Francis Ford Coppola"), but then ask me so I don't have to watch something my wife likes but I can't stand like 24, (but please don't tell her), and then make some things our son likes (he really enjoyed Big Hero 6, so Disney!).

    Unfortunately the 2D8HP household doesn't have enough freetime to decide on every film and television project, so with that in mind maybe let folks make the art they want whether their motives are commercial or not, except for whomever makes Dexter, 'cause that show is just gross.
    Good idea - ask lots of people what they'd like to see. It's called a market focus group. it forms part of the market research film companies do when deciding what film to show.

    I am genuinely unsure if you disagree with what I am saying, or if you actually agree with me conceptually and just hate the use of the word 'market' to describe what most people would go and see.

  3. - Top - End - #423
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Disney Becoming Blander?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    In the status quo passion projects happen all the time. They may not be common but the system as it now allows passion projects, whether the passion is political, or artistic, or dozens of other things. I believe these passion projects are integral to the market success and when the passion projects are chased out due to trying to create some form of stigma where you should not make things that do not have a market history track record you are in fact distorting the market and creating only reductive forms of art.
    I have no objection to passion projects (if I understand the phrase correctly). I just don't think we have any objection if the industry decides not to fund or promote passion projects except to say "I would have liked to have seen that", which is really just another way of saying there was a market for the particular movie.

    This comment you made earlier is very prosecriptive (an imposed restraint or restriction : prohibition)
    Which comment did you take as being proscriptive?

    Whenever someone does proscriptive or prescriptive rules and saying these rules should be social norms, I think of this.
    I don't think I have done such a thing in this thread. I am not saying no film shall ever be made unless there is clear evidence that the market demands it, I am only saying that it is how the industry is guided in its movie choices, and is a reasonable way for it to be guided.

    Indeed I am opposing the prescriptive idea that the industry must make a certain quota of movies with each ethnicity, sexuality, gender etc.

    Prescriptive rules are rules that describe what participants can do, and what they should do.
    Proscriptive rules are the opposite of prescriptive rules, telling participants what they canít do.

    Prescriptive and Proscriptive rules, both are bad for art, for art in this situation is finite even if its uncountable, instead of infinite and unlimited. Creating a world where art is limited is by the very definition a dangerous type of world.
    You have spent significant post space lecturing me that the market is imperfect after I had already said in posts of mine you quoted that the market is imperfect, and are now are lecturing me on the pitfalls of setting rules for creators when I have not advocated for such rules anywhere in this thread. Can I suggest that next time your time would be better spent asking a couple of questions first?

    My question to you remains. Can you think of a better mechanism by which creators should choose what films to make (including the demographics of the characters within, than following the market.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2018-02-24 at 12:36 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #424
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    2D8HP's Avatar

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    Default Re: Disney Becoming Blander?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Good idea - ask lots of people what they'd like to see. It's called a market focus group. it forms part of the market research film companies do when deciding what film to show.

    Well yes some good films have been made that way, also some trash, and some great and some bad films have been made because the makers had a story they wanted to tell regardless of whether it would be commercial or not.

    I'm not saying that I don't think popular movies should be made (except for "Dexter" which is disgusting), I'm saying that other motives of filmmaking are valid as well.

    I am genuinely unsure if you disagree with what I am saying, or if you actually agree with me conceptually and just hate the use of the word 'market' to describe what most people would go and see.

    Well "market" is a bit of a "trigger word" for me because of some things that have been justified by saying some things should be "decided by the market", but I don't feel free to discuss those examples further.

  5. - Top - End - #425
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Disney Becoming Blander?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I'm not saying that I don't think popular movies should be made (except for "Dexter" which is disgusting), I'm saying that other motives of filmmaking are valid as well.
    I won't go so far as to assume "all," but given the generally community here I would guess that most people would agree completely with that last bit. We mostly like a genre that, for the longest time, wasn't done often because it wasn't thought of as mainstream popular, and when it was done, it was often done poorly due to lack of real support, and the poor showing was used as more evidence that there wasn't popular demand. Without people who had passion for projects and a willingness to disregard conventional thinking about financial viability, we'd be missing a lot of great movies.

    The obvious problem is that it costs money to make movies, and more money to achieve the higher production values that people often demand. This covers a huge part of the industry, but it doesn't exclude people with other motives for making a movie--it just forces them to also consider profitability, and sometimes to make compromises. But even if you level the playing field in that respect--which people do try to do, with government and private grants for independent films--the big structural problem is that people have limited time to watch a lot of potentially worthy films, and even if you take money out of the equation, you are nonetheless left with a free market of ideas competing for a limited resource.

    So what can we do about it, short of a socialist revolution? For one, maybe stop demonizing those who try to get their not-primarily-profit-motivated films done through the traditional, profit motivated system. Sure, if the compromise in order to accommodate the system, call them out for it, but maybe also give them credit for choosing to get their project done in some form at all rather than letting it languish while Transforms X plays. Also, because we haven't magically leveled the playing field financially, independent film makers have an even greater challenge in the free market for our attention, so maybe we do something to help them out? Become someone people take seriously (which, paradoxically, usually doesn't involve demanding to be taken seriously), and advocate for the sorts of films you want to see from the big producers, but don't.


    Well "market" is a bit of a "trigger word" for me because of some things that have been justified by saying some things should be "decided by the market", but I don't feel free to discuss those examples further.
    Is it? I never would have guess from the random other thread in which you screamed at the market like Elan at a guy who forced him to think.

  6. - Top - End - #426
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Disney Becoming Blander?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyril View Post
    [.....]I never would have guess from the random other thread in which you screamed at the market like Elan at a guy who forced him to think.

    Hey that would be mean to Elan! Thinking is hard!
    (I totally forgot that I embarrassed myself again on yet another thread. I'll hsve to do a search).

    Anyway, despite our differing points of view, @Liquor Box seems a good joe to me.

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