Disney Becoming Blander?

[Knaight]

Even then, it's iffy to me. I mean why draw the line at the race. When casting a movie to play, say.... Marthin Luther King Jr. Why not make it so that you have to be the Exact weight, height, same facial features.. make sure the person playing him went to the same school, high school, college. Same city, same neighborhood. Heck, why not have to have the same birthday.

Some of these things were very, very relevant to Martin Luther King Jr.'s life in particular, and the impact it had. Some of them were largely irrelevant - height, weight, facial features, birthday, these weren't particularly relevant. Some of these are visible to the audience, some aren't, such as where an actor is from and where they went to school. Emphatically not on either of these lists is MLK being black. It was more than a little relevant.

[Liquor Box]

Some of these things were very, very relevant to Martin Luther King Jr.'s life in particular, and the impact it had. Some of them were largely irrelevant - height, weight, facial features, birthday, these weren't particularly relevant. Some of these are visible to the audience, some aren't, such as where an actor is from and where they went to school. Emphatically not on either of these lists is MLK being black. It was more than a little relevant.

I agree, I think it is those things that are visible to the audience that matter.

So in non-animated television an actor who is portraying a real-life (or established in fiction) person should at least look like the ethnicity of the real life character. So they don't have to be the same precise ethnicity but they should at least look like that ethnicity - so black characters should usually be portrayed by black actors, whites by whites, etc.

But the ethnicity of the voice actor in an animated movie is not visible to the audience, so it seems to me that it does not matter so much, if at all.

Where I disagree with you is on some of the features that you suggest are irrelevant - like height and weight. If an actor is portraying a person who had a certain body shape, then the actor should have a similar body shape. For example, if a small black actor had portrayed Muhammad Ali (instead of Will Smith) then it would have detracted from the movie - because Ali was a reasonably big guy, and that was quite important to his character (it is kind of necessary to being heavyweight champion of the world).

[Knaight]

Where I disagree with you is on some of the features that you suggest are irrelevant - like height and weight. If an actor is portraying a person who had a certain body shape, then the actor should have a similar body shape. For example, if a small black actor had portrayed Muhammad Ali (instead of Will Smith) then it would have detracted from the movie - because Ali was a reasonably big guy, and that was quite important to his character (it is kind of necessary to being heavyweight champion of the world).

I described them as comparatively irrelevant to MLK in particular. Muhammed Ali was a top notch athlete, getting a big guy who's in really good shape is pretty key there.

[Liquor Box]

I described them as comparatively irrelevant to MLK in particular. Muhammed Ali was a top notch athlete, getting a big guy who's in really good shape is pretty key there.

Fair enough.

[Kyberwulf]

Lol. That's a pretty racist statement. Because they are in Africa.. they have to be black? There are no white people there? Because they are animals..from Africa... they have to be black?

[snowblizz]

Lol. That's a pretty racist statement. Because they are in Africa.. they have to be black? There are no white people there? Because they are animals..from Africa... they have to be black?

Yeah they do. Because Hollywood has a long and proud* history of taking white people and painting them to portray less outstanding examples of humanity (read: not white) who for some weird reason are being depicted, in the few cases where they just didn't outright ignore such niggling details and just pretended everyone everywhere was just white.


*YMMV, if nothing in the above statement upset you then you will not get why it was considered important to have the cast that way no

[Kitten Champion]

Lol. That's a pretty racist statement. Because they are in Africa.. they have to be black? There are no white people there? Because they are animals..from Africa... they have to be black?

They're also given names specifically taken from Swahili and Manazoto.

[Kyberwulf]

Lol. By that logic. It's okay for white people in America to cast everyone in all movies.. to be white.. or lighter skin.. Because America is majority white.

And what's in a name... Or whatever.. something something rose..

[Kitten Champion]

Lol. By that logic. It's okay for white people in America to cast everyone in all movies.. to be white.. or lighter skin.. Because America is majority white.

I feel like explaining things to you which exists outside your narrow worldview would be counter-productive. So I'll just agree and hope this ends with only moderate embarrassment for everyone involved.

And what's in a name... Or whatever.. something something rose..

The culture you're appropriating?

[Kyberwulf]

I can't stop laughing... what's your name
"Jason Lee" what? You can't have that name .. your an injun.. you need a name like
. Buckskin Beavertail. What's your name... my name is Kunta Kinte" .. what you can't have that name... your name is Toby. What's your name? "Uh.. Maria?" What.. no your Asian.. you need to have an exotic Asian name.. you name is Amiko..."but.. i am not even japanese.. I am chinese" nope I get to decide who has what name because I know .

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Fine, I'll explain why you're being a whiny **** here. Would there be anything wrong with a movie about a lion in Africa played by a white person? No, not really. Is there anything wrong with a movie about a lion in Africa played by a black person? Still no. Next question: in the current media landscape, where the standard is still having a white male lead doing all the important stuff, or maybe a white female lead doing all the important stuff if the movie is specifically about historic black minority problems, is that one big budget movie with a mostly black cast the one you should be singling out for being totally racist? Heck no.

I might see your point maybe if we white dudes were not being represented, if we were like "another fully black movie, and the excuse is 'because Africa' this time?" I might even have partially agreed if you had made some clever statement about all the white people playing bumbling idiots. But you're not saying anything clever. Your complaint translates to "too many black people", in that one specific movie that's not chockfull of white people. If you need help seeing what's wrong with that statement, good luck.

[Rodin]

Where I disagree with you is on some of the features that you suggest are irrelevant - like height and weight. If an actor is portraying a person who had a certain body shape, then the actor should have a similar body shape. For example, if a small black actor had portrayed Muhammad Ali (instead of Will Smith) then it would have detracted from the movie - because Ali was a reasonably big guy, and that was quite important to his character (it is kind of necessary to being heavyweight champion of the world).

Depending on who is being portrayed, physical appearance can not matter either.

Gary Oldman:


Winston Churchill:



Gary Oldman as Winston Churchill:



Different body shape, different weight, and very different facial features. Yet with makeup, costume, and acting ability he pulls it off.

Outside of massive differences (getting Peter Dinklage to play a basketball player ain't gonna work), the only real bar is race. Both because that's pretty hard to disguise with makeup and because of the representation issues underlying the casting.

[Chen]

Fine, I'll explain why you're being a whiny **** here. Would there be anything wrong with a movie about a lion in Africa played by a white person? No, not really. Is there anything wrong with a movie about a lion in Africa played by a black person? Still no. Next question: in the current media landscape, where the standard is still having a white male lead doing all the important stuff, or maybe a white female lead doing all the important stuff if the movie is specifically about historic black minority problems, is that one big budget movie with a mostly black cast the one you should be singling out for being totally racist? Heck no.

I might see your point maybe if we white dudes were not being represented, if we were like "another fully black movie, and the excuse is 'because Africa' this time?" I might even have partially agreed if you had made some clever statement about all the white people playing bumbling idiots. But you're not saying anything clever. Your complaint translates to "too many black people", in that one specific movie that's not chockfull of white people. If you need help seeing what's wrong with that statement, good luck.

The original Lion King had what, maybe 2 more white actors than this one? Simba and Scar were both voiced by white people in the original. I think the rest is more or less the same (maybe Ed was a white guy in the original, but he barely had a role anyways). I find it hard to say they chose only black actors here.

[zimmerwald1915]

Outside of massive differences (getting Peter Dinklage to play a basketball player ain't gonna work), the only real bar is race. Both because that's pretty hard to disguise with makeup and because of the representation issues underlying the casting.

Making up an actor to convincingly play a character of a different race is not beyond Hollywood's capabilities. It's not even beyond New York's or Atlanta's. The practice is, however, indelibly associated with minstrelsy and all the unfortunate implications that go along with that.

[JadedDM]

Lol. By that logic. It's okay for white people in America to cast everyone in all movies.. to be white.. or lighter skin.. Because America is majority white.

That is what we've been doing. For many, many years now. Even today, in the year 2018, the vast majority of movies star mostly white people. And then on the rare occasion where a movie is made without white people, people like you come in and start complaining about how this is somehow unfair.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Gary Oldman

Sure, if you pick the guy I'm half-convinced is an actual shapeshifter. Same with Daniel Day-Lewis. But most actors can't do that. No amount of make-up was able to turn Sean Connery into anything other than the first Scotsman to command a Russian Submarine. Since not every actor is as capable or insane as Day-Lewis, it's better to cast people that don't require as much makeup, costume, and acting ability.

GW

[Liquor Box]

Depending on who is being portrayed, physical appearance can not matter either.

Gary Oldman:

Different body shape, different weight, and very different facial features. Yet with makeup, costume, and acting ability he pulls it off.

Outside of massive differences (getting Peter Dinklage to play a basketball player ain't gonna work), the only real bar is race. Both because that's pretty hard to disguise with makeup and because of the representation issues underlying the casting.

I'm not sure that you are right about this. I'm not sure how old you are or if you are old enough to recall Winston Churchill when he was alive. But my grandmother commented that one difficulty she had watching English period drama The Crown was that John Lithgow who portrayed Churchill did not closely resemble him.

Another one is height - huge outcry when the short Tom Cruise was cast to portray the tall Jack Reacher. Another is age, one often hears complaints about the actor not being a similar age to the charzcter - that even happened on this forum in a theorietical casting of the OotS characters.

There are lots and lots of ways in which differences between established characters detract from a movie- not just race.

[Kyberwulf]

I don't care about who they cast. It's about the hypocrisy of the matter.

You can't really sit there and complain about all the injustice of something, then turn around and do the same thing and expect people to see "equality"

This isn't about social equality, it's about getting social revenge.

If they just came out and said Hey, this is the cast for the Lion King. Sure. But when they don't really say it, yet do a Zooming close up of a platter with someone looking in the screen. Winking while saying, "This is your cast, eat them up"... It doesn't matter to me if they are all white, women, black.. or anything.

Besides, I don't understand how you guys can't see how racist you are. Seriously, you guys are fine with black people playing "black" characters. Yet it doesn't bother you that the main cast aren't really African. I mean, African.. African. People born and raised in Africa, trained to be Actors, and trying to make it in a pretty big movie... and they give it to some American? Where is the justice in that. All that matters to you is the colour of the skin.


Also, I thought personal attacks were against forum rules. Calling me a whiny term... ? I was giving strikes for less then that. One was for a "Personal" attack that was more of a slight jab. Second the whole "******" I was given a strike for because I was trying to "Circumvent the board rules" Yet I see it all the time. Moderators?

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't care about who they cast. It's about the hypocrisy of the matter.

You can't really sit there and complain about all the injustice of something, then turn around and do the same thing and expect people to see "equality"

This isn't about social equality, it's about getting social revenge.

If they just came out and said Hey, this is the cast for the Lion King. Sure. But when they don't really say it, yet do a Zooming close up of a platter with someone looking in the screen. Winking while saying, "This is your cast, eat them up"... It doesn't matter to me if they are all white, women, black.. or anything.

Besides, I don't understand how you guys can't see how racist you are. Seriously, you guys are fine with black people playing "black" characters. Yet it doesn't bother you that the main cast aren't really African. I mean, African.. African. People born and raised in Africa, trained to be Actors, and trying to make it in a pretty big movie... and they give it to some American? Where is the justice in that. All that matters to you is the colour of the skin.


Also, I thought personal attacks were against forum rules. Calling me a whiny term... ? I was giving strikes for less then that. One was for a "Personal" attack that was more of a slight jab. Second the whole "******" I was given a strike for because I was trying to "Circumvent the board rules" Yet I see it all the time. Moderators?

My but you must have long arms to reach so far.

[Liquor Box]

My but you must have long arms to reach so far.

The actor that portrays him in the story of his life had better also have long arms then. Perhaps Michael Jordan?

[Chen]

Im still confused as to the issue here. The cast of the new Lion King isn't all black or anything. 2 main characters (Timone and Pumba) are white just like they were in the original. Zazu as well. Simba and Scar changed from white to black as did a Hyena (who they renamed oddly). But why is that suddenly some sort of "casting only black people" type thing? Rather than choosing actors they wanted to work with. I could see the argument if everyone was black but they clearly aren't.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Yeah they do. Because Hollywood has a long and proud* history of taking white people and painting them to portray less outstanding examples of humanity (read: not white) who for some weird reason are being depicted, in the few cases where they just didn't outright ignore such niggling details and just pretended everyone everywhere was just white.


*YMMV, if nothing in the above statement upset you then you will not get why it was considered important to have the cast that way no

Wait... WHAT? WTF do you mean with that???

[Leewei]

I'm pretty dang floored that we have a movie coming up with James Earl Jones, Beyonce, John Oliver, and Chiwetel Ejiofor (aka Mordo from Dr. Strange / The Operative from Serenity) as the big bad. In a freaking Disney movie. Incredible.

Of course you wouldn't get this stellar array of talent for a movie that was race-indifferent. Of course at the end of the day, we want a society which is fair. Of course casting actors based on their race has the appearance of working counter to that goal.

The problem of diversity is one that is hard to see when you are typical to your society. Our favorite movies may have occasional characters of color, perhaps even in a role where they're not merely a token friend. There's still a huge gap in representation.

But if we don't care about race at all, the problem vanishes, right? Unfortunately, no. Instead, the problem persists and is just not acknowledged as such. Inverting the formula, having an overwhelmingly black cast, with a few, plucky comic relief white actors, is something different. Sure, it has tones of social justice.

In addition, though, there's some real potential here for unexpected developments. We could see some cultural ideals that aren't typical in a Disney flick. Maybe even some notions that are genuinely African. Which would, of course, suit the acting talent.

[Kitten Champion]

The thing about the Lion King is, it wraps itself in Africa. Beyond just the setting, Africa's in the music - the movie literally opens in Zulu - the most popular song from the movie was probably Hakuna Matata which is Swahili, Swahili is used by various characters throughout the movie in various forms, the instruments used are associated most heavily with African cultures' folk music. Then there's the names for characters which I've pointed out, and some characterizations are pretty explicitly African in nature -- like Rafiki, whose name is also Swahili.

... and have you seen the musical? Or, at least seen commercials for the musical?

Point being, it's not trying to separate itself from Africa, it lavishes Africa upon itself. Saying "there are non-Black people in Africa as well so that doesn't matter" is sort of missing the obvious here.

How that translates into voice casting for its remake is an interesting question, but being blind to it is dumb.

[GreatKaiserNui]

The thing about the Lion King is, it wraps itself in Africa. Beyond just the setting, Africa's in the music - the movie literally opens in Zulu - the most popular song from the movie was probably Hakuna Matata which is Swahili, Swahili is used by various characters throughout the movie in various forms, the instruments used are associated most heavily with African cultures' folk music. Then there's the names for characters which I've pointed out, and some characterizations are pretty explicitly African in nature -- like Rafiki, whose name is also Swahili.

... and have you seen the musical? Or, at least seen commercials for the musical?

Point being, it's not trying to separate itself from Africa, it lavishes Africa upon itself. Saying "there are non-Black people in Africa as well so that doesn't matter" is sort of missing the obvious here.

How that translates into voice casting for its remake is an interesting question, but being blind to it is dumb.

Don't sally yourself with Kyberwulf's non-answers, he only cares about defending Whiteness.
He has no idea about Americas rich multiculturalism going all the way back to the 18th century.

[zimmerwald1915]

The thing about the Lion King is, it wraps itself in Africa. Beyond just the setting, Africa's in the music - the movie literally opens in Zulu - the most popular song from the movie was probably Hakuna Matata which is Swahili, Swahili is used by various characters throughout the movie in various forms, the instruments used are associated most heavily with African cultures' folk music. Then there's the names for characters which I've pointed out, and some characterizations are pretty explicitly African in nature -- like Rafiki, whose name is also Swahili.

This is, of course, disturbing for entirely different reasons. Africa's been strip-mined enough in the literal sense and in the material world without going into this metaphorical strip-mining.

[Reddish Mage]

This is, of course, disturbing for entirely different reasons. Africa's been strip-mined enough in the literal sense and in the material world without going into this metaphorical strip-mining.

Coming in at first, I thought you were referring to how the Lion King flattens Africa into a singular cultural agglomeration (like so many treatments) but here we are talking about using African Africans in a production that culturally places itself in Africa.

Of course their is limits to how “African” a Disney movie can be in be expected to be. The least surprising aspect of Disney’s cultural brand leaking in, is probably the lack of ethnically correct casting.

Racial disparity in casting is just a symptom of how Hollywood works. For Hollywood to be become representative, the industry really would have to hire actors and actresses on a meritocratic, relationship-blind system. As the movies are clearly all about star-power and getting hired based on pre-existing profiles and relationships, it seems unlikely that exotic outsiders have much of a chance of breaking into the system in a natural way.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

*rant missing the point*

Yeah, I said none of that. What I said is that I didn't have a problem with a single movie full of black people. Which is a thing I shouldn't have to say because why shouldn't I be fine with that? So first I was racist for not asking for these acting jobs to go to white Americans and now I'm racist for not wanting them to go to black Africans. The only thing in fact I can not be just fine with is those same gigs going to black Americans, because if we allow that we're all super racist. Right.

I honestly can't tell if your heart is in the right place and you are really trying to argue color shouldn't matter yet aren't very experienced with how the real world works yet or if you're just trying to be a sneaky racist arguing we should al be more racist because modern PC SJW culture is totally racist jo. Either way this is the last post I intend to spend on it. (Although I reserve the right to respond to other angles coming forth from it, like whether the African cultural and linguistic touches in The Lion King are a genuine good thing or just disrespectful themepark flavoring, now that is a subject we can sink our teeth into.) If it's the first case please come and revisit this thread in about five years and see how it looks to you then, that will provide some wonderful personal insights.

[snowblizz]

Wait... WHAT? WTF do you mean with that???

What I mean is that Hollywood routinely "whitewashes", I think is the term used now, a number of ethnic minorities in movies. Put bluntly casting white actors for other ethnithies, even going so far as to use make up to try and emulate skincolour. And then takes it even further if you go back long enough, i.e. blackface and minstreling.

Charlton Heston as Moses and Ben Hur, Elizabeth Taylor as Cleoptara, such things. And like I said there are really really bad literal blackface racial stereotypes in there too.

Stuff like the above is why it's ok to make a movie now and thne weighted the other way. And still be working on that equality thing.

But congratulations for being upset. You have a social consciousness unlike the person who the reply was directed at. Good on you.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

What I mean is that Hollywood routinely "whitewashes", I think is the term used now, a number of ethnic minorities in movies. Put bluntly casting white actors for other ethnithies, even going so far as to use make up to try and emulate skincolour. And then takes it even further if you go back long enough, i.e. blackface and minstreling.

Charlton Heston as Moses and Ben Hur, Elizabeth Taylor as Cleoptara, such things. And like I said there are really really bad literal blackface racial stereotypes in there too.

To be fair you can make a movie with racist stereotypes without doing any of that. As an example there's a buddy cop movie called National Security from 2003 which is almost literally painful to watch. Every negative black stereotype piled on to make the least likable character this side of Hitler, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. But he's played by an actual black dude (and not even one that doesn't really have any options, that director must have had a good lawyer to keep him on). (I'm trying not to name and shame too much so anyone who really needs to know who these people were can google it.)

For the purpose of the discussion it's also nice to separate whitewashing from blackface. Whitewashing is making stories that were not about white people be about white people, either by replacing characters, inserting new ones or changing the story around. The Last Samurai makes Japan be about a white dude, The Blind Side makes the football career of a black player be about a white woman, 21 makes the exploits of a bunch of Asian-American card counters be about a bunch of white kids. The Last Airbender probably counts as well.

Blackface is using makeup to change the race of an actor. Between the two of these I'd argue blackface is the lesser evil. It is a tool that has been used to great racist effect in say minstrel shows and Birth of a Nation (the old one), and to just plain dumb effect in movies like White Chicks (technically whiteface I guess, but that all goes in the same category), but apparently Robert Downey Junior in Tropic Thunder is really cool (haven't seen that one yet). There's a bunch of inherent problems with blackface, definitely, as over in the Netherlands we are reminded of every year during our scheduled bout of "Black Pete is Racism". And especially in America it's not a thing you should do if you haven't thought about the implications of what you're doing. But at least in itself it doesn't rewrite history to be all about white people, which whitewashing fundamentally does.