paladin strength build how to do it? or should I just go with dex?

[Red Bear]

So I'm about to start a campaign and since I've never played a paladin and the party doesn't have any melee fighter / tank type character I thought about making a weapon and shield paladin, and I thought I should make a Strength build in order to have the plate but then I realized that if I make a dex build with a score of 20 I could get an AC that is just one lower with a studded leather without stealth disadvantage, with initiative bonus and with the dex save that is much more useful than a str save, also I could wear a plate armor with a dex build since I'm proficient and I would only loose 10 ft movement that does not matter if I decide to fight on horseback. In addition we are playing with firearms and I cannot use them with a str build. The only advantage I would get with str is using the lance.

Am I missing something? maybe I'm doing the wrong thing by trying to make a "tank" and I could do some damage without the shield with heavy weapons and the Great Weapon fighting style. I don't know. any advice?

Update: I played the first session with a str/ pole arm master/ sentinel/tunnel fighter build and it all went very well, I was very effective, I found out the other party members didn't go for stealth either and I didn't suffer for the low initiative or dexterity saving throw. So thank you all again for your advice. the only problem I had is that the DM told us that he uses the "facing" variant rule in the dmg (p.252), so I don't threaten the area behind me and several enemies attacked me from behind avoiding my attacks of opportunity. Do you have any advice for this? being a variant rule there probably isn't much I can do by RAW, can you think of something I can say to the DM that he should let me do the opportunity attacks behind me?

[trctelles]

STR build is good If you run Polearm with PAM and GWM or just a greatsword. DEX is good too, you won't lose much by running DEXadin. Yeah you lose plate armor, but as you said, in the end it's just 1 AC.
People like running STR on paladins for PAM and smiting with the bonus action attack, and PAM have some great feat combos with Sentinel and GWM.

In the end of the day, you could still get Tavern Brawler and smite using your shield If you really want to get another shot at smiting (Dont forget improved Divine smite).
Most of the damage from paladins come from smites anyway, so If you want you can run DEX and be quite good at It with better saves and initiative, but paladins dont really need to go First and already have good saves because aura os OP OP.

[Pex]

It would help to ask your DM if he would allow Great Weapon Style's effect to work on smite damage. By the book it does, but Sage Advice says no. If yes, there's your build. You wouldn't need Great Weapon Master feat. You will do plenty of damage. Doesn't hurt to have the feat, but you aren't in need of it for the damage. The game does not become unplayable if yes. It is the feature of allowing it that the paladin would dish out a great deal of damage in spike pattern. He already has the spike pattern with smites in general. This increases the peak. A fight against something you'd smite anyway ends one or two rounds earlier than without it. It's the paladin's turn in the spotlight.

If no, you're back to where you started. I'd recommend go for the stereotype. Take Dueling Style for the +2 damage. It is significant over the rounds. Use a shield and heavy armor for your AC. Initiative is good to have but not that important.

Your weakness is in range. You have none. If you were to go DX build you could do something with bows, but then you're not using a shield and still can't Smite. You could lump it and let other party members deal with range attacks. When you need to close in on the enemy but can't reach them yet, that's a good time to buff yourself with a spell or Channel Divinity. If reaching the enemy is not possible, this is where other members of the party get their turn in the spotlight. For these occasions you casting Bless while the cleric does something else might be the thing to do. If your lack of range is hurting the party due to your limited or no actions, consider Magic Initiate feat and pick up a couple of Cantrips. Variant Human gets that out of the way at character creation to focus on other things as you level.

[Nidgit]

There are a few advantages to going STR sword and board over DEX, two of which are also applicable to PAM and Great Weapon builds:

1) Higher max AC. As you point out, heavy armor has a max AC of 18 while light makes out at 17.

2) More AC faster. Drop a 16 in STR during character creation and your AC is set, leaving you free to focus on things like feats and pumping your CHA for as long as you want. A 16 in DEX gives you an AC of only 15, 17 with the shield, meaning that you'll probably want to max DEX as soon as possible and delay the other stuff.

3) Better Athletics. A key feature of good SnB builds is the ability to grapple or shove enemies, particularly by taking the Shield Master feat. A Dexadin will have much lower Athletics without a Rogue or Bard dip to grab Expertise, making this strategy less feasible.

Whether those pros outweigh the possibility of higher Initiative, better DEX saves, and stealth is up to you.

[Pex]

I overlooked your interest in Stealth. Apologies. I have no answer to that. If it's really important to you then it will influence your choices. I can only give an anecdote. I'm playing a mountain dwarf paladin, heavy armor, 10 DX. You'll hear him coming before he knows he's even going. The party was hunting orcs who were hunting paladins. We wanted to approach their camp stealthily but no way was that happening with me around. I made that work for us. The orcs were hunting paladins. Let them know I'm coming. I'm target. The rest of the party can hide out in the woods as we approach. They can be stealthy all they want. When the orcs come after me the rest of the party surprises them.

"Target" became my character's nickname, by my choice. When the DM asks for marching order I'm always up front because I'm target. I want the bad guys to attack me first so everyone else is safe. I'm not stealthy, so I don't pretend to be or worry about it. I don't care they know I'm coming.

[warsawwombats]

What's your party makeup? Are they reliably collaborative?

The big issue I've run into with all my STR paladins are Dex saves from traps and spells. Being an Ancients paladin helps in this regard.

If you have a really cooperative party, a lot of spellcasters can help cover up your stealth disadvantage (Silence, Pass Without a Trace, etc...). I once even jumped into a Bag of Holding to sneak past some guards once.

I've never played with homebrew firearms before, so if that tips the damage curve in favor of ranged characters, that would probably push me to play a DEX pally just so I can shoot things.

[Red Bear]

Thank you all for your answers, you made me more confident in my choice of str

STR build is good If you run Polearm with PAM and GWM or just a greatsword. DEX is good too, you won't lose much by running DEXadin. Yeah you lose plate armor, but as you said, in the end it's just 1 AC.
People like running STR on paladins for PAM and smiting with the bonus action attack, and PAM have some great feat combos with Sentinel and GWM.

In the end of the day, you could still get Tavern Brawler and smite using your shield If you really want to get another shot at smiting (Dont forget improved Divine smite).
Most of the damage from paladins come from smites anyway, so If you want you can run DEX and be quite good at It with better saves and initiative, but paladins dont really need to go First and already have good saves because aura os OP OP.

I never considered this, I really like this idea of using polearms, I fell it still makes me a bit tank-like because it gives me a little bit of battlefield control and defend someone next to me by attacking with reach

I overlooked your interest in Stealth. Apologies. I have no answer to that. If it's really important to you then it will influence your choices. I can only give an anecdote. I'm playing a mountain dwarf paladin, heavy armor, 10 DX. You'll hear him coming before he knows he's even going. The party was hunting orcs who were hunting paladins. We wanted to approach their camp stealthily but no way was that happening with me around. I made that work for us. The orcs were hunting paladins. Let them know I'm coming. I'm target. The rest of the party can hide out in the woods as we approach. They can be stealthy all they want. When the orcs come after me the rest of the party surprises them.

"Target" became my character's nickname, by my choice. When the DM asks for marching order I'm always up front because I'm target. I want the bad guys to attack me first so everyone else is safe. I'm not stealthy, so I don't pretend to be or worry about it. I don't care they know I'm coming.

I like this idea of being "the target" /decoy

What's your party makeup? Are they reliably collaborative?

The big issue I've run into with all my STR paladins are Dex saves from traps and spells. Being an Ancients paladin helps in this regard.

If you have a really cooperative party, a lot of spellcasters can help cover up your stealth disadvantage (Silence, Pass Without a Trace, etc...). I once even jumped into a Bag of Holding to sneak past some guards once.

I've never played with homebrew firearms before, so if that tips the damage curve in favor of ranged characters, that would probably push me to play a DEX pally just so I can shoot things.

yeah I guess If I really need to be stealthy I can use invisibility and other spells. We're using the (bad) rules in the dmg, basically the pistol is a loud hand-crossbow that deals 1d10 damage and the musket is a loud heavy crossbow that does 1d12 damage

[Arkhios]

Technically, and I'm not saying it's the most optimal thing to do, if you're sure you don't want to multiclass, you don't need str for anything, making it a reasonable dump stat.

However, by RAW, athletics checks (e.g. grapple and shove) - as well as melee attacks with improvised weapons, which lack ANY weapon properties; including Finesse - require strength, so shield master shove and/or tavern brawler are also out of the picture pretty much. IF you are playing by the book. If not, then go nuts.

Anyway, with DEX as your highest melee ability score, Medium Armor Master isn't all that bad feat to take, imho. Sure, you won't benefit from more DEX to AC than +3 but at least your AC would be on par with heavy and you wouldn't suffer a Stealth Penalty in medium armor. Plus, even the heaviest medium armor (half plate) has no STR requirement. But the point is, even though medium armor master lets you benefit from DEX as high as 16-17 it doesn't mean you couldn't have higher than that and benefit more for saves, initiative, AC, attack, and damage.

That said, I'd still choose STR and heavy armor over DEX and lighter armor as a paladin any day.

[lunaticfringe]

I don't think Stealth is worth worrying about too much if you guys are all going to be strapped.

Guns are like loud n' stuff. Though you could pull a Critical Role and ignore that like 99% of the time.

[Talamare]

A lot of Tank Paladin's I play with don't even get 20 STR first, they start with 16 STR and then get either Feats or go for 20 CHA

So being forcing a Paladin to get 20 Dex is a pretty inherent penalty.

[Red Bear]

Update: I played the first session with a str/ pole arm master/ sentinel/tunnel fighter build and it all went very well, I was very effective, I found out the other party members didn't go for stealth either and I didn't suffer for the low initiative or dexterity saving throw. So thank you all again for your advice. the only problem I had is that the DM told us that he uses the "facing" variant rule in the dmg (p.252), so I don't threaten the area behind me and several enemies attacked me from behind avoiding my attacks of opportunity. Do you have any advice for this? being a variant rule there probably isn't much I can do by RAW, can you think of something I can say to the DM that he should let me do the opportunity attacks behind me?

A lot of Tank Paladin's I play with don't even get 20 STR first, they start with 16 STR and then get either Feats or go for 20 CHA

So being forcing a Paladin to get 20 Dex is a pretty inherent penalty.

Really? I thought I should get str to 20 before cha, what are the useful class features that use cha?

[OldTrees1]

Really? I thought I should get str to 20 before cha, what are the useful class features that use cha?

Paladin 6: At all times, all allies (including myself) get +[my Cha modifier] on all saving throws (Death/Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/& Cha saves).

[Sception]

with polearm master / sentinel / tunnel master, you may be better in getting your strength up next, as actually hitting with opportunity attacks is a big deal for you, and you'll be making enough attacks that the extra damage matters a lot, too. Paladin definitely wants to get both their attack stat (whether str or dex) and cha up eventually. Your build makes a difference on which takes priority. Conquest pallies need their spells and channel divinities to land to power their tanking and control, so charisma is a higher priority. But a more physical paladin who spends more of their actions attacking and more of their spell slots smiting, as you probably will, will likely be better off boosting attack first. Yes, it means settling for no better than a +3 aura of protection for most of your career, but that's still a pretty amazing ability. And Dexadins of any type need to raise dex first, as it powers their AC as well.

Basically, primarily physical stratagies need to push the physical end first, while primarily magical strategies can push the magical side, and there will be times when both regret that choice, like when the physical paladin sees three party members drop to a banshee after failing their saves by only one or two points, or when the magical paladin barely whifs their attacks three turns in a row. Those moments are just going to happen.

Well, they're going to happen unless you dip hexblade. A level of hexblade, or three if you use polearms or great swords, will let you get around the split casting angle. Of course, there are sacrifices there, too. A physical paladin looses little and has several great jumping off points. A more magical paladin has a harder time fitting it in, as access to higher level spells actually matters beyond bigger smites. Conquest paladins in particular really have no dead levels that make good jumping off points.

Speaking of multiclassing, the Str13 requirement on paladins makes multiclassing another reason to favor strength-based over dexterity-based builds. Again, though, for single classed pallies, dex based builds have a lot of strong selling points. I wouldn't say one is better than the other.

[Arkhios]

Paladin 6: At all times, all allies (including myself) get +[my Cha modifier] on all saving throws (Death/Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/& Cha saves).

Not at all times. Get the paladin unconscious and there goes the aura

[Malifice]

Best advantage of Str build (on a class with heavy armor) is you can dump Dex to 8.

It's really not needed. Heavy armor compensates for AC, and Dex saves (while common) rarely do anything other than stop a bit of damamge (rarely save or suck).

In any event from 6th level you have Divine Grace +Cha to saves running so it's not that big a deal.

And stealth? Pfft. You're a paladin.

Initiative is the only place it hurts, and there is always the feat that grants +5 to initiative if you're really worried about it. Personally a -1 isnt that big a deal on a d20 spread.

[Red Bear]

Paladin 6: At all times, all allies (including myself) get +[my Cha modifier] on all saving throws (Death/Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/& Cha saves).

oh, right, that is a strong ability.

Well, they're going to happen unless you dip hexblade. A level of hexblade, or three if you use polearms or great swords, will let you get around the split casting angle. Of course, there are sacrifices there, too. A physical paladin looses little and has several great jumping off points. A more magical paladin has a harder time fitting it in, as access to higher level spells actually matters beyond bigger smites. Conquest paladins in particular really have no dead levels that make good jumping off points.

Speaking of multiclassing, the Str13 requirement on paladins makes multiclassing another reason to favor strength-based over dexterity-based builds. Again, though, for single classed pallies, dex based builds have a lot of strong selling points. I wouldn't say one is better than the other.

I will probably go with paladin 20, (oath of treachery by the way but I could still change it to conquest)

... Dex saves (while common) rarely do anything other than stop a bit of damamge (rarely save or suck).

I never considered that, you're right they are not save or suck

[Sception]

Treachery was very strong, there's absolutely no reason not to try it if your DM allows it, but that said there's plenty of reason for your DM not to allow it.
It was widely regarded as overpowered when introduce, thematically and conceptually it steps on the already printed oathbreaker's toes quite a bit (though treachery's mechanics are much more evocative of those themes), and these are likely both reasons why the developers have seemingly abandoned it. So again, if your DM allows it then a treachery paladin is fun and very strong, though potentially rather disruptive to a party, even an evil party.

By contrast, conquest is great, in its final form every bit as perfect a mechanical incarnation of its thematic elements as treachery is, without being quite so overpowered. But Conquest is a completely different character.

Both Oathbreaker and Treachery focus heavily on physical attacks and damage. You'll want to get your cha up eventually, but your physical attack stat, whatever it is, absolutely takes priority. Conquest is more control oriented, and needs the Cha maxed out as soon as possible, even if you're not attacking with it, to give enemies the best chance of failing saves against your fear effects. It ends up playing completely differently as a result.

if you want to dominate your enemies and leave them begging for mercy, dragging out combat for a few extra rounds while you bask in the helplessness of your foes, before maybe granting them mercy in exchange for serving you in the future, then Conquest is your choice. But if you just want to kill things as quickly and efficiently as possible, then Oathbreaker or Treachery will do that for you. The difference between them is that the oathbreaker kills fast but also gets killed fast, since enemy undead and fiends can use their aura against them, where as the treachery paladin kills fast and gets killed never because the second half of their ability set is all about slipping away whenever the odds are against them.

[djreynolds]

Update: I played the first session with a str/ pole arm master/ sentinel/tunnel fighter build and it all went very well, I was very effective, I found out the other party members didn't go for stealth either and I didn't suffer for the low initiative or dexterity saving throw. So thank you all again for your advice. the only problem I had is that the DM told us that he uses the "facing" variant rule in the dmg (p.252), so I don't threaten the area behind me and several enemies attacked me from behind avoiding my attacks of opportunity. Do you have any advice for this? being a variant rule there probably isn't much I can do by RAW, can you think of something I can say to the DM that he should let me do the opportunity attacks behind me?



Really? I thought I should get str to 20 before cha, what are the useful class features that use cha?

Yes it fair, because the tunnel fighter basically allows multiple reactions on a turn and you look like a ranger using whirlwind attack at maybe 8th level. I'm not sure it is fairly balanced with PAM and sentinel on top of it. Remember tunnel fight is UA material.

For stealth, I allow my players on a short rest the ability to downgrade plate armor into half-plate or breast plate or back again.

IMO, charisma affects your saves and everyone else within 10ft, and your spell DC and the number spells you can prepare and sacred weapon for oath of devotion

[Red Bear]

Treachery was very strong, there's absolutely no reason not to try it if your DM allows it, but that said there's plenty of reason for your DM not to allow it.
It was widely regarded as overpowered when introduce, thematically and conceptually it steps on the already printed oathbreaker's toes quite a bit (though treachery's mechanics are much more evocative of those themes), and these are likely both reasons why the developers have seemingly abandoned it. So again, if your DM allows it then a treachery paladin is fun and very strong, though potentially rather disruptive to a party, even an evil party.

By contrast, conquest is great, in its final form every bit as perfect a mechanical incarnation of its thematic elements as treachery is, without being quite so overpowered. But Conquest is a completely different character.

Both Oathbreaker and Treachery focus heavily on physical attacks and damage. You'll want to get your cha up eventually, but your physical attack stat, whatever it is, absolutely takes priority. Conquest is more control oriented, and needs the Cha maxed out as soon as possible, even if you're not attacking with it, to give enemies the best chance of failing saves against your fear effects. It ends up playing completely differently as a result.

if you want to dominate your enemies and leave them begging for mercy, dragging out combat for a few extra rounds while you bask in the helplessness of your foes, before maybe granting them mercy in exchange for serving you in the future, then Conquest is your choice. But if you just want to kill things as quickly and efficiently as possible, then Oathbreaker or Treachery will do that for you. The difference between them is that the oathbreaker kills fast but also gets killed fast, since enemy undead and fiends can use their aura against them, where as the treachery paladin kills fast and gets killed never because the second half of their ability set is all about slipping away whenever the odds are against them.

I wanted to play oathbreaker but then my DM told me there are no undead in this campaign so I switched, I thought about asking him to change his ability to something else like "control fey" but I just changed oath. Treachery is very powerful but if I feel if would fit better thematically with a dex build so I wasn't sure about it, but the abilities seemed too cool so I chose it anyway :) I didn't know it has been sort of abandoned by the developers, I'm roleplaying mostly as a conquest paladin though.

Yes it fair, because the tunnel fighter basically allows multiple reactions on a turn and you look like a ranger using whirlwind attack at maybe 8th level. I'm not sure it is fairly balanced with PAM and sentinel on top of it. Remember tunnel fight is UA material.

I guess you have point, still when it happened I was pretty surprised and disappointed

[Sception]

Even without undead in the game, oathbreaker is still strong. The fear CD is very good, and while no enemy undead means none to dominate, it also means none to take advantage of your aura while they beat on you and your companions.

That said, i think you'll enjoy treachery. It's as powerful as it is fluffy. The spell list is a lot of fun.

[Matrix_Walker]

Not at all times. Get the paladin unconscious and there goes the aura

As ridiculous as it is, I don't recall seeing anything in print that suggests an aura would go down, Unarmored Defense stops working or DX bonus doesn't add to your AC when you are unconscious.

[LudicSavant]

STR build is good If you run Polearm with PAM and GWM or just a greatsword. DEX is good too, you won't lose much by running DEXadin. Yeah you lose plate armor, but as you said, in the end it's just 1 AC.

Worth noting that in any campaign where you can buy magic items using DMG or XGTE guidelines, getting a +1 magic half-plate is considerably cheaper than getting full plate, which means that you don't even lose that 1 AC until the point where folks are upgrading to rarer items. You get the same AC plus extra cash.

[Arkhios]

As ridiculous as it is, I don't recall seeing anything in print that suggests an aura would go down, Unarmored Defense stops working or DX bonus doesn't add to your AC when you are unconscious.

I said nothing about Unarmored Defense or DX (DEX?) bonus, but I'm sorry to break it down for you: I think you should read the Paladin Aura description(s) again a bit more carefully:

AURA OF PROTECTION
Starting at 6th level, whenever you or a friendly creature within 10 feet of you must make a saving throw, the creature gains a bonus to the saving throw equal to your Charisma modifier (with a minimum bonus of +1). You must be conscious to grant this bonus.

AURA OF COURAGE
Starting at 10th level, you and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you can't be frightened while you are conscious.

AURA OF DEVOTION
Starting at 7th level, you and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you can't be charmed while you are conscious.

Emphasis mine. All auras continue with the same line that the radius increases to 30 feet at 18th level, so I left that part out from the quotes.

I must admit, though, I was rather surprised now that I was comparing these Auras, because Aura of Warding appears to be even better than I had thought:

AURA OF WARDING
Beginning at 7th level, ancient magic lies so heavily upon you that it forms an eldritch ward. You and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you have resistance to damage from spells.

So far, and I haven't looked up from elsewhere (yet), Aura of Warding is the only paladin aura that seems to keep functioning even if you are unconscious; arguably even after you've died.

Alright, apparently also Oathbreaker's Aura of Hate keeps functioning regardless of your status.

But, that's only two Auras out of seven total Auras (in print) that do. Even the Aura of Conquest functions only as long as you aren't incapacitated, and Aura of the Guardian (Oath of Redemption) is of any use as long as you (the paladin) are able to take reactions.

[Matrix_Walker]

My bad! Thanks for pointing that out! I just lumped it in there, sorry about that.