Is Rick Sanchez CE according to 5e standards? Sure he is.

[Naanomi]

Rick's actions in an infinite number of universe's will be considered lawful good by thier standards. The will be said of the opposite

But when discussing ‘alignment’ in any meaningful sense, we don’t care about most infinite Universes... only the Greater Cosmology of the Great Wheel and its objective system of Alignment. Different Cosmologies have different rules, sure... no doubt about it. But it is next to irrelevant to the discussion of Alignment as a DnD construct

[Unoriginal]

I bet you believe my stance is that of "'Forced Sexual Acts' as Good" when I have repeatedly said that it isn't.

Oh?

Then why don't you tell us what your stance is?

Please, enlighten us, we blind dogmatic bigots. Please, tell us how, for you, having sex with the body of someone under the control of an outside entity does not qualify as rape.

but I don't doubt you feel that you have some moral high ground by attempting to frame me as holding that stance.

You've already declared the genocide, mass murder and slavery that Rick Sanchez inflicts on "people that don't matter" as good.

We don't need to attempt nor frame anything

[Suicune]

We live in the age of video games, but I realize that isn't exactly a justification.

However, when you present to your players that the information that the Tower over there is an Evil Lair of the Evil Guy. It's not an uncommon reaction to see the players kill most of them and attempt to get information from maybe 1 of them.

Just like it's is an extremely rare reaction for a DM to present that information of #467 to the players, as anything more or less than a joke.

The game is to have fun, and the game is arguably fairly combat driven. So screw, let's do the combat, to do the rolls, to get some crits, and give each other a few high fives.
Then afterwards, the Good PC can give like 5 gold to the Poor or some other cosmically good act.

If the DM doesn’t present the fact that Henchman #467 isn’t just a groundskeeper (e. g. “You open to door to the next room and see a man sweeping the floor, whistling to himself”), you can’t really blame the players for that, especially not if he doesn’t cry out in fear and tries to fight back with a weapon. Entrapping your players to make them do bad deeds is bad DM form unless they’re fighting a devil or something.

Either way, you’re sidetracking us and ignored the crux of my argument: that is, Good characters, more often than not, have good intentions with good results, and it’s pretty clear Rick does not fit that category.

[Scripten]

You're both borderline denying the existence of this scientific field of understanding. That is what is horrifying to me.
Essentially equivalent to the Religious forces from olden days that denied the existence of other sciences that are common place today.

No we're not. Pretending that the neurosciences invalidate basic morality is far more insulting to the field that stating that they are unrelated. And you can knock off the baseless comparisons to "Religious forces", especially since that is bordering on breaking the rules of the board.

And no one is insulting you personally, save for refuting your argument. We've done nothing but taken what you've said in context and made value judgements on it. That those judgements tend to sway toward "the values espoused by these arguments are disturbing" is on you, bud.

I presented you very easy to understand videos on the subject matter, and instead of taking any information into consideration you burned the books and attacked the informant.

I bet you believe my stance is that of "'Forced Sexual Acts' as Good" when I have repeatedly said that it isn't.
but I don't doubt you feel that you have some moral high ground by attempting to frame me as holding that stance.

Arguing against bodily autonomy with youtube videos about neuroscience is laughable. And yes, arguing for basic human(sentient) rights gives one a moral high ground. Sorry to break it to you. If you are going to argue that a fictional character like Rick Sanchez is "Good", then you've got a warped sense of what "Good" is. You can try to lawyer your way out of it, but there's really no other way about it.

[Talamare]

If the DM doesn’t present the fact that Henchman #467 isn’t just a groundskeeper (e. g. “You open to door to the next room and see a man sweeping the floor, whistling to himself”), you can’t really blame the players for that, especially not if he doesn’t cry out in fear and tries to fight back with a weapon. Entrapping your players to make them do bad deeds is bad DM form unless they’re fighting a devil or something.

Either way, you’re sidetracking us and ignored the crux of my argument: that is, Good characters, more often than not, have good intentions with good results, and it’s pretty clear Rick does not fit that category.

Wasn't intentional to ignore your argument's crux; I thought my response sort of addressed it.
"You sneak into the Lair and find several people around. They are just sweeping, tidying shelves, and a few of them are playing cards."
Tell me that a common response isn't "Ooh Surprise Round!"

Because people aren't overly concerned about the moral ramifications of their actions a majority of the time
It's only when truly heinous acts begin to pop up is when people start bringing it into consideration.

That circles back to Rick.
Rick performs a lot of acts that often end up with fairly Morally Good results without really considering that his specific actions might be Evil
When Rick performs a truly heinous, we often have Morty to point out that action to the Audience.
Morty is the conscious of the Audience, calling Rick out that his action is Evil.
Then the show proceeds to demonstrate, that it really wasn't.

Oh?

Then why don't you tell us what your stance is?

Please, enlighten us, we blind dogmatic bigots. Please, tell us how, for you, having sex with the body of someone under the control of an outside entity does not qualify as rape.

Do you consider the body you live in every day to be "your" body?
Why?
That collection of cells and organisms change every few years, that body is 100% different than that body from a decade ago.
There are millions of living cells and organisms in that body, and that make up that body, but you don't feel the need to ask their consent.
Even your own brain, your left and right brain have vastly different thought processes that when surgically cut will act as vastly different 'people' sharing the same body.

If your consciousness was switched with the consciousness of another, who's body belongs to who?
Does the answer change if it was temporary? If it was for 5 minutes? 5 days? 50 years?

This subject is complex.

[Unoriginal]

Do you consider the body you live in every day to be "your" body?
Why?
That collection of cells and organisms change every few years, that body is 100% different than that body from a decade ago.
There are millions of living cells and organisms in that body, and that make up that body, but you don't feel the need to ask their consent.
Even your own brain, your left and right brain have vastly different thought processes that when surgically cut will act as vastly different 'people' sharing the same body.

If your consciousness was switched with the consciousness of another, who's body belongs to who?
Does the answer change if it was temporary? If it was for 5 minutes? 5 days? 50 years?

This subject is complex.

So you're saying that if a NPC hires a demon to possess my PC's body then have sex with it while the demon is in control, you wouldn't say that it was rape and would totally buy that this NPC is a good guy?

[Naanomi]

Even your own brain, your left and right brain have vastly different thought processes that when surgically cut will act as vastly different 'people' sharing the same body.

Post-commissurotomy syndrome isn't really that extreme, you have to do some big sensory tricks to get different responses and even those fade relatively quickly in most circumstances post-surgery (as new connections between the hemispheres are formed in the brainstem through the corpora quadrigemina). I've worked with people who have had the procedure. It is a neat parlor trick for psychology 201 classes, but really isn't all that extreme in practice.

And, in a universe where consciousness is tied to an actual, detectable, manipulatable soul like the DnD Cosmology is; the underlying neurology is basically meaningless

[Talamare]

So you're saying that if a NPC hires a demon to possess my PC's body then have sex with it while the demon is in control, you wouldn't say that it was rape and would totally buy that this NPC is a good guy?

No, I'm saying it's more complex than that and there is no easy answer.

If a NPC hires an Angel to transfer your consciousness into a different body. You live in that body for 20 years. Eventually you find a sweet girl, get married, and want to start a family with her.

Would she be having Forced Sex with the body you're inside?

[Naanomi]

No, I'm saying it's more complex than that and there is no easy answer.

If a NPC hires an Angel to transfer your consciousness into a different body. You live in that body for 20 years. Eventually you find a sweet girl, get married, and want to start a family with her.

Would she be having Forced Sex with the body you're inside?

Depends on if your soul was transferred, and the soul was still in the body you inhabited. Probably also matters if she is aware it happened.

Also, an Angel doing such things is probably falling in most circumstances; and if it ‘crossed the line’ or not is just an objective Heart Sight away, or barring that just tracking where you end up in the afterlife

[Talamare]

Post-commissurotomy syndrome isn't really that extreme, you have to do some big sensory tricks to get different responses and even those fade relatively quickly in most circumstances post-surgery (as new connections between the hemispheres are formed in the brainstem through the corpora quadrigemina). I've worked with people who have had the procedure. It is a neat parlor trick for psychology 201 classes, but really isn't all that extreme in practice.

And, in a universe where consciousness is tied to an actual, detectable, manipulatable soul like the DnD Cosmology is; the underlying neurology is basically meaningless

I'm guessing auto correct changed it from Callosotomy.
I see it as a look into our understanding of who (or what) we are.
Its a subject that needs more time and research.

Tho you're right that it may not matter much in terms of straight DnD the specific event in question might bring some of it into question

Basically, who is in control, and what level of ownership we attribute to these other living organisms.

Depends on if your soul was transferred, and the soul was still in the body you inhabited. Probably also matters if she is aware it happened.

Also, an Angel doing such things is probably falling in most circumstances; and if it ‘crossed the line’ or not is just an objective Heart Sight away, or barring that just tracking where you end up in the afterlife

I honestly love that answer.
(Tho find the Angel falling part to be... irrelevant?)

The annoying part is if we start bringing in to it issues of Love (that would probably also be irrelevant to the core subject matter, but...)
Did the Girl fall in love with 'you'?
You being a question of both the body you're currently in, and the conscious that directs the body

Would she have fallen in love with 'you' in your original body as well?

[Unoriginal]

No, I'm saying it's more complex than that and there is no easy answer.

Oh, really?

My PC got possessed and some creep had sex with their body without any input of the PC's part, but "it's more complex than that and there is no easy answer"?

If a NPC hires an Angel to transfer your consciousness into a different body.

First, you're still pretending that it's a question of bi-lateral transferred consciousness, when the subject of the discussion is actually an outside entity taking over the body with leaving no control for the person the body belonged to. THIS is attempting to frame the discussion in your favor.

Second, doing this without the consent of the persons involved would be at minimum a colossal **** move and almost certainly villainous. Unless maybe it's the only way to save the lives of both persons and there is no way to ask us if we agree, a D&D Angel would never agree to perform it on their own free will.

You live in that body for 20 years. Eventually you find a sweet girl, get married, and want to start a family with her.

Would she be having Forced Sex with the body you're inside?

If

a) this body belonged to a different person (as opposed to a body being created without a mind/spirit/soul to hold the person)

b) this different person desires to switch back

c) it's possible to switch back

d) this supposedly sweet girl knows I've occupied for decades a body the person it belongs to wants back and still has sex

then yes.

If the person doesn't want to switch back, they're obviously giving you ownership of this body as you give them ownership of yours. If it's not possible to switch back, then it sucks, but it's impossible to give the bodies back to the persons they belong. And if the girl didn't know, well, you're even more of a scumbag, but you can't blame her. Same way you can't blame someone who has sex with someone shapeshifted as their lover who tricked them.

[Naanomi]

I'm guessing auto correct changed it from Callosotomy.
I see it as a look into our understanding of who (or what) we are.
Its a subject that needs more time and research.

A neural commissurotomy is identical to a corpus callosotomy... surgeons tend to call it the later, but neurologists tend towards the former term. All things considered it is fairly well researched, getting a lot of attention to the unique (though generally temporary) sensory and cognitive well studied both in the late 1940s and early 1980s.

Because full commissurotomies are rare (being largely replaced by either the less extreme partial severing of the corpus callosum, or full hemispherectomies; as well as advances in anti-seizure medications) the population receiving the procedure to be studied has gone down significantly.

I have a masters in cognitive neuroscience (though mostly specializing in ASD and, and associated neuroendocrinology and neuroimaging) and have actually worked with a few people who have had the procedure. Even immediately after the surgery, you have to really set up unique sensory situations to even notice the effect. As I said, more parlor trick than demonstrative of deep neurological 'truths' about the nature of self

[Finlam]

This is a fun thread!

Anyone care to take a stab arguing a Lawful Good alignment for Rick?

=)

[Talamare]

A neural commissurotomy is identical to a corpus callosotomy... surgeons tend to call it the later, but neurologists tend towards the former term. All things considered it is fairly well researched, getting a lot of attention to the unique (though generally temporary) sensory and cognitive well studied both in the late 1940s and early 1980s.

Because full commissurotomies are rare (being largely replaced by either the less extreme partial severing of the corpus callosum, or full hemispherectomies; as well as advances in anti-seizure medications) the population receiving the procedure to be studied has gone down significantly.

I have a masters in cognitive neuroscience (though mostly specializing in ASD and, and associated neuroendocrinology and neuroimaging) and have actually worked with a few people who have had the procedure. Even immediately after the surgery, you have to really set up unique sensory situations to even notice the effect. As I said, more parlor trick than demonstrative of deep neurological 'truths' about the nature of self

Apologies, didn't mean it as an insult. Tho I believe that it is a little dismissive to the philosophical aspects of the field to consider it just a parlor trick.
I wouldn't be surprised if early forms of Electricity was mostly considered a parlor trick by some as well.

If

a) this body belonged to a different person (as opposed to a body being created without a mind/spirit/soul to hold the person)

b) this different person desires to switch back

c) it's possible to switch back

d) this supposedly sweet girl knows I've occupied for decades a body the person it belongs to wants back and still has sex

then yes.

If the person doesn't want to switch back, they're obviously giving you ownership of this body as you give them ownership of yours. If it's not possible to switch back, then it sucks, but it's impossible to give the bodies back to the persons they belong. And if the girl didn't know, well, you're even more of a scumbag, but you can't blame her. Same way you can't blame someone who has sex with someone shapeshifted as their lover who tricked them.

I think B is where questions arrive.
In the Unity Episode in question it does seem that the person still seems to hold desires while controlled, and are able to fulfill them and have a fulfilling life. (Altho 'Evil' desires are 'removed')
The episode shows resistance to being initially controlled, but didn't display that they had a desire to be released even after they were released.

Perhaps you just used a poor choice of words, since if let's say an Demon stole your body and you desired to switch back, then your B would qualify.
If an Angel stole your body, and removed all desires, (hell removed your soul completely from that body), your B would no longer qualify.
Yet, in such a situation, you would probably find it morally reprehensible to commit the act.

In a non-supernatural representation (which is what both this talk of Angels and Demons, and Rick and Unity is), this is more or less equivalent to 'Date Rape'.
Which is absolutely reprehensible.


D brings up "Fuzzy" arguments.
If this girl knew that the transfer happened 20 years ago, but was never reminded of it. Eventually falling in love with this "person"; just as this "person" fell in love with her.
If this girl was told that the transfer happened, but has no proof of it existing.
If this girl knew that the transfer happened, but doesn't care (or is glad) because the personality of the previous was disgustingly silly levels of Evil.
If this girl knew that the transfer happened and every week the original comes back; and reminds her.
If this girl was the one who asked the Angel for this Evil person to become Good, and the Angel never explains how it happened.
... This is starting to remind me of philosophical debates of Bruce Banner and The Hulk; but I'll avoid getting into it.

[Naanomi]

Apologies, didn't mean it as an insult. Tho I believe that it is a little dismissive to the philosophical aspects of the field to consider it just a parlor trick.
I wouldn't be surprised if early forms of Electricity was mostly considered a parlor trick by some as well.

By 'parlor trick' what I mean is...
~the effects are very temporary, more accurate to call them post surgical side effects than revealing deeper underlying systems and structures
~the effects do not reveal themselves under normal circumstances, you have to take very intentional and artificial steps to isolate sensory input to even notice it, and even then it doesn't present strongly in all cases

Combined, this (at least to me) means that it is fascinating, but ultimately speaks to how the brain recovers from trauma rather than revealing deeper truths about the neurological nature of the self... most of the cool 'nature of self' stuff happens with damage to either the supporting thalamic structures, the hippocampus, or orbito-prefrontal cortex

But it is (even more) inconsequential in a DnD Cosmology since the 'meat' of the brain is barely involved in the more mystical/soul/psionic nature of the self in such a universe anyways

[Rhedyn]

This is a fun thread!

Anyone care to take a stab arguing a Lawful Good alignment for Rick?

=)

Well Rick strictly follows a personal code, therefore he is super duper lawful.

The overarching theme of the show is that nothing matters in the multiverse. But Morty is taken care of instead of replaced by any other Morty's. Rick has already jumped two realities with kronenberg Earth and upsetting the squirrels for this Morty. So really Rick is selflessly helping Morty and only gives him excuses for their relationship so Morty doesn't feel guilty. In fact all of Rick's action are about helping Morty grow and learn.
So nothing matters except Morty and Rick. Rick is helping the only person that matters. Ergo Rick is good with a hard G.

/s

[Finlam]

Well Rick strictly follows a personal code, therefore he is super duper lawful.

The overarching theme of the show is that nothing matters in the multiverse. But Morty is taken care of instead of replaced by any other Morty's. Rick has already jumped two realities with kronenberg Earth and upsetting the squirrels for this Morty. So really Rick is selflessly helping Morty and only gives him excuses for their relationship so Morty doesn't feel guilty. In fact all of Rick's action are about helping Morty grow and learn.
So nothing matters except Morty and Rick. Rick is helping the only person that matters. Ergo Rick is good with a hard G.

/s

Well... I'm convinced.

[Kane0]

Heh, “the best of all possible worlds”
Just replace worlds with either rick or morty as appropriate.

[sightlessrealit]

But when discussing ‘alignment’ in any meaningful sense, we don’t care about most infinite Universes... only the Greater Cosmology of the Great Wheel and its objective system of Alignment. Different Cosmologies have different rules, sure... no doubt about it. But it is next to irrelevant to the discussion of Alignment as a DnD construct

I don't see how.

[Naanomi]

I don't see how.

Because in realities without alignment, discussions of alignment don’t apply?

[Kane0]

Like our own?

[Naanomi]

Like our own?

As far as we know, sure; though in DnD canon our Earth is part of the Great Wheel (with several portals connecting it to Aber-Toril... Elminster visits sometimes)

We weren’t asking if Rick has an Alignment on Earth though, just what his Alignment would be as a DnD character.

[Unoriginal]

Like our own?

And like the one of the Rick & Morty cartoon.

[Naanomi]

And like the one of the Rick & Morty cartoon.

Though given that both DnD and Rick & Morty universes allow for 'crossovers' between different Universes; it isn't inconceivable they might interact in some capacity

[Kane0]

I raised it during conversation at my game table last night, everyone either responded 'Yup he evil AF' or 'Don't think about it Morty'.

So I pretty much stand by what I said on page 1.

[GlenSmash!]

Of course he's evil.

To quote a brilliant man, or at least one with a very large helmet: "Good is dumb."

And Rick ain't no dummy.

[S_A_M I AM]

Did you ever open a thread despite knowing exactly what was going to happen in it, and then find out that it managed to actually sink lower than your already low expectations?

First time for everything, I guess. :/

[Malifice]

You've already declared the genocide, mass murder and slavery that Rick Sanchez inflicts on "people that don't matter" as good.

We don't need to attempt nor frame anything

To be fair, everyone that has ever committed genocide has dehumanised the victims first.

What Talamere is doing is sadly not unusual. It's why horrific crimes like genocide exist.

[Rhedyn]

I raised it during conversation at my game table last night, everyone either responded 'Yup he evil AF' or 'Don't think about it Morty'.

So I pretty much stand by what I said on page 1.

This is the correct answer.

[MadBear]

Rick is evil. That is really all that should need to be said. All this talk of Unity and that episode is a complete Red Herring. It's a distraction and smokescreen meant to cover up the glaring fact that Rick as committed many awful deeds for evil reasons.

To show that Rick is evil, lets look at the Rickshankredemption. In it you have 2 things happen:

1. Rick destroys the galactic government and he destroys the citadel of Ricks. His actions both directly and indirectly kill many many people. In fact, his teleportation of the citadel killed many many Morty's, who are human, and not as evil as Rick.

2. Rick does this to take trick his family so that he could take control of them. That was his only intent, and he made that very clear.

We now have a very clear scenario where Rick committed an evil act, for at best mildly evil intentions. Evil action with evil intent is evil.