Marvel: 2018 Edition

[Rater202]

If that's an All-New Wolverine spoiler, I haven't made it out to the local comic and hobby shop, yet. I would appreciate spoiler tags on that one.

More a general character trait, really.

Daken's had a soft spot for Laura for a good long while and the introspection and character development he's been getting since Logan died has emphasized it.

But I'll spoiler the thing anyway just in case.

Spoiler

Show

It's um... Questionable if it actually applies to the Orphans of X storyline, he does essentially die for her, but the implication is that he's going to get brought back and he knows it.

[t209]

The giant vacuum cleaner idea was being used by The Right in Hopeless' All-New X-Men, but they were collecting bits of the Terrigen Cloud so they could poison mutants. Also featured in that issue: an offshoot of the Hand set up in the Amazon rainforest as eco-terrorists, the Green Thumb.

Well, it was made by Moongirl, who clearly a genius for coming up with that.
*cough* Storm, Crystal *cough*

[Starbuck_II]

Well, she actually oppose Hydra as I know.
I think it had to do with saving NuHumans, which Kamala and her Champions save them from internment camp even though Mutants would be included but Marvel bias (not including their Tau-like caste system and habit of sterilizing people).
Edit: that or the IvX but she did come back to her senses and decided not to gas people. And somehow to make Moongirl smart is to make everyone dumb even though they can build a giant vacuum cleaner and contain it. Maybe it might have stupid making pheromones inside, just like Tau.

I think Moongirl's power is to make others dumb to make her smarter.
I mean, everyone becomes dumb in the comic related to her. Even Karnak became a complete idiot.

[Rater202]

I think Moongirl's power is to make others dumb to make her smarter.
I mean, everyone becomes dumb in the comic related to her. Even Karnak became a complete idiot.

She was the dumb one in her team up with Eddie Brock in the new Venom ongoing.

Yes, bring an abnormally intelligent, super strong tyrannosaur to fight a guy who can psionically control anything that's even vaguely a dinosaur. That'll go super well.

[t209]

She was the dumb one in her team up with Eddie Brock in the new Venom ongoing.

Yes, bring an abnormally intelligent, super strong tyrannosaur to fight a guy who can psionically control anything that's even vaguely a dinosaur. That'll go super well.

Yep, the fear of "smartest person of the planet" is starting to show.
Just like Richard Reeds in Marvel Civil War Just watch the movie and Zeta Gundam for more awesome rebellion storyline.

[S_A_M I AM]

Well, she actually oppose Hydra as I know.
I think it had to do with saving NuHumans, which Kamala and her Champions save them from internment camp even though Mutants would be included but Marvel bias (not including their Tau-like caste system and habit of sterilizing people).
Edit: that or the IvX but she did come back to her senses and decided not to gas people. And somehow to make Moongirl smart is to make everyone dumb even though they can build a giant vacuum cleaner and contain it. Maybe it might have stupid making pheromones inside, just like Tau.

That is simultaneously: Kinda disappointing to hear and kind of a thorny issue given the confluence of death of the author and how the business demands of making the Inhumans pick up a similar narrative space as the Xmen should skew interpretation of any kind of narrative surrounding systemic violence.

Particularly given that I haven't even read it so I'll just say that a part of me misses what I'd been exposed to about the Inhumans before the Terrigenisis stuff went down. (Funtime raygun gothic drama about space princes on the moon.) And that Medusa and Johnny Storm always made a weird kind of sense to me as a couple.

If that's an All-New Wolverine spoiler, I haven't made it out to the local comic and hobby shop, yet. I would appreciate spoiler tags on that one.

It's possible you just haven't made it back to the thread yet but you should probably also spoil the quote you pulled from Rater's post.

[t209]

That is simultaneously: Kinda disappointing to hear and kind of a thorny issue given the confluence of death of the author and how the business demands of making the Inhumans pick up a similar narrative space as the Xmen should skew interpretation of any kind of narrative surrounding systemic violence..

To be fair, the Royal family did gone into space and introduced a thing called "democracy" to let them run while they were away.
Again, that didn't help about past cockadoodies relating to gas, so it made the Nuhumans look like playing a Victim card or Tau being invaded but less sympathetic.
Edit: Strangely though Marvel and Games Workshop are similiar except the latter isn't that dumb enough to actually put a grey properly with Tau actually treating non-Tau much better (Trust me, Kamala would be treated as "second class" but alot more better with robot servants and coffee machine than her life as Inhuman serfs). Hence comparison between Inhumans and Tau Empire as an example of their competence in writing.

[Metahuman1]

Wait. What happened to Miss Marvel? Did she go Hydra or something? After the Magneto and the Scarlet Witch thing, I'd have thought that I'd have heard about that.

(I haven't really been following comics for the last few years.)

Then you missed a rather massive arc were in she starts working with this group that have decided to go capture people who have not yet committed crimes.

But according to a computer only 1 or 2 of them can operate, based on "Good Science Criteria that ISN'T profiling we swear really take our word for it Minority Super Heroine!" these people are GOING to commit crimes.

The fact that all the "Crimes" and "Critera" involve being people that the typical extremely far left American political activist would deem "Problematic." is entirely beside the point dear reader please pay it no mind. Also pay no mind that were apparently predicting these crimes so very far into the future that the people who are alleged to commit them down the road haven't even though of doing so yet.



And of course she eats this up and backs it and goes about wtih this group using there super powers to kidnap people out of there homes. No Lawyers. No Right to Privacy. No Warrants. No actual physical crimes or evidence or victims. No Trial. No Jury. The people taking you in are your Judges, Jailers and Executioners. Period. No Appealing to higher authority. No legal recourse or defense at all.

You. Have. No. Rights. And she's 100% ok with this and defends it until it's done to someone she knows personally. And even then she doesn't throw the system under the bus for an altogether too long period of time. Because she believes in this kind of a system and it's rightness and superiority to alternatives.

Oh, and the friend/love interest who starts to finally make her think it's within the realms of conceivability this might, maybe, just possibly, and this is a crazy though, be potentially a little bit wrong to do? When he got arrested for a future crime he wasn't even considering at the time?

He get's permanently maimed by the end of the matter. He's gonna spend the rest of his natural life in a wheel chair as a direct consequence of her taking that path. And SHE is the one that the authors rather brazenly think you, dear reader, should feel sorry for.






We have a term of this kind of behavior. It's called Fascism. And her problem with it wasn't that at it's core the system is horrible and should be opposed at every turn. That it's Barbaric and Sub human and monstrous at every step and level form inception to every form of conceivable implementation through out time and space.

Her problem was that the computer program made 1 mistake, there for it wasn't reliable enough for her to be acting on it. Again, not the human rights violations that actually bug her. Her personal inner circle getting hurt and rightfully shunning her for her BS, and the comp goofing. Offer her a "better" computer and program and she'd do it all again.



Ergo, the character is dead to me. They have made certain to ruin her in a way that there really, ultimately, isn't going to be an acceptable recovery form. At least, not form this crop of writers. Now, sure, if you gave it to someone competent and told them to make getting her over the fact that this black mark is in her past a priority, they could probably pull it off. But this crop doesn't really think Ms. Marvel was in the wrong in the first place, so, that's never gonna happen long as they are working for Marvel.

The New Editor In Chief Can't fire the whole lot of them fast enough.

[Rater202]

You are aware that two issues later she proved that the "computer"(Actually a Nu Human who can see the future, which is singificantly better than a computer in this situation) was flawed in his predictions and then cut ties with Captain Marvel when CM refused to accept that it was a system that didn't work, right? ("Carol, I've proved that this system is sufficiently flawed as torender the predictive justice aspect invalid" "By working with a villain.")

Also, strictly speaking, the people were only imprisoned until after the Window of the crime they'd commit expired and they were released after and the first thing Ms. Marvel did after Captain MArvel set her up to this was use one of Ullyses' predictions to stop a stolen tank from exploding and killing a bunch of people.

Furthermore, it wasn't that it happened to someone she knew that made her start questioning it, it was that this person that she knew was taken into custudy becuase he met the general description of the person Ulyses saw doing the crime. Which is to say, despite what Captain Marvel said, there was in fact profiling being done in this system. also one of the kids she was working with almost imediatly went mad with power and tazed a guy when there was no need to taze him.

And then she got into a fight with this girl and tried to shut down the program but Captain Marvel over ruled her. and the only reason she didn't do it earliar was becuase she was blinded by Hero Worship of Carol Danvers.

But Seriously, this was Literally Civil War part II and the writing all around was just as Bad as Civil War part I. You can't exactly hold executive mandated bad-plots

Like, seriously, the only people who were perfectly in character in that entire arc were Agent Venom(whose Tie in consisted of Spider-Man mentioning the issue with Ullyses ofhand to explain why he had to leave and that's it) and Hydra!Cap whose behavior was explcitly a case of him trying to escalate the situation to undermine the publics faith in heroes.

[Metahuman1]

Sure I can. It's her canon. The writers have had time to clean it up if they wanted too.


They don't, and haven't.



And no, there pretty clearly explicit about her questioning it once she sees it's someone she knows. The fact that there profiling comes out AFTER she starts questioning it to help support that position because the writers, by now, have realized they have good and shot themselves in the foot with this little storyline. Not that anything in it is wrong in there minds mind you, just that they've figured out it what it makes them look like. And being that honest they figured was a bad plan.

By that logic kid she knew should have been out the following morning and I seem to recall them holding him notably longer then that. And guy with exploding tank should have been out in a couple of hours. He certainly got held longer then that. So, that's not a valid defense, sorry.

I don't recall of the tazering was before or after arresting guy she already knows. But I do recall that she simply swallows that "well, your in charge, so take her to task for it and make it clear to all of them that that one was a goof." was all she had to hear to put her mind at ease at the time on that matter.





And all of this leaves out the points that she's suppose to be this Oh So Very Smart Oh So Very Genera Savvy Geek Girl who's Oh So Very Politically Savvy already and Oh So Very Wise Beyond Her Years. Which, I was willing to buy into. I did buy into.

And then this happened. This was her having her One More Day moment, except that she didn't wait 45 years for it. She did it early on to make sure you knew you could no longer trust anything that's suppose to be a fundamental tennent of who this person is. For crying out loud she beats you about the head regularly with the Oppressed Minority Group(s)TM, and doesn't recognize "Were going to get people for things they haven't done yet and set precedent for wiping out there rights just on our say so that if we don't they will eventually do bad things! Really you can trust us cause there's no chance any of us would ever be wrong or lie or abuse this kind of un limited power!" as the sort of thing that could quickly, and trivially easily be used to make sure those minority groups stay oppressed? Or worse, get wiped out when half your bad guys want to do that too them whole sale?! Are you KIDDING ME?!

I suppose next you'll want me to forgive Bruce Wayne toting a small collection of firearms he bought in a vanilla gun store about and executing his foes with them in cold blood as heroic?





And you know, I'd be willing to let it go and give them another chance if they really wanted to fix it. Instead, they want to tell me the victimizer in this whole thing, Ms. Marvel (who, make no mistake, was decidedly the victimizer the whole way through.), is really the one I should really and truly feel sorry for because she's the real victim here! Not the innocent guy who literally never committed a crime and got permanently stuck in a wheel chair for the rest of his natural life. No, the person who made sure that happened to him is the one who really demands my sympathy damn it!


*%&! that!

[Rater202]

The writers have had time to clean it up if they wanted too.

She acts consistantly differant both before and after Civil War II. It's very clearly a case of the Writers being madated to do a tie-in storyline.

And she does change her behavior accordingly after the fact and

By that logic kid she knew should have been out the following morning and I seem to recall them holding him notably longer then that. And guy with exploding tank should have been out in a couple of hours. He certainly got held longer then that. So, that's not a valid defense, sorry.

You need to reread. They explicitly stated that he was going to be released the next day(he was taken into captivity the day before the day he was supposedly going to do the thing Ulyses saw him doing, and was set to be released after the time the next day, I want to say 10:15 AM, that he would have done the thing he was forseen doing) and Bruno badly injured himself trying to break him out that night knowing that Josh was going to get out the next day.

And Bruno got injured because he tried to overload an electric lock, which triggered an explosion he was right next to. Again, needlessly, becuase he was physically there when it was said that Josh was going to be let out that night.

The guy with the exploding tank was held up longer because he stole a tank, which is an actual crime that he actually comitted, and also he's an actual Supervillain who had done actual crimes in the past.

The reason Ms. Marvel is presented as a victim is that she let her faith in Captain Marvel blind her and because Bruno blamed her for him injuring himself needlessly.

(Side note: Bruno is still capable of walking and a Oneshot showing him at that school in Wakanda establishes that his genius roomate is going to hook him up with a vibranium exoskeleton that's gonna take care of a lot of his problems in the short term and delay his degredation in the long term)

Ms. Marvel realized that she was on the wrong side, tried to explain to Captain Marvel that they were wrong, proved that they were wrong, and cut all tied with Captain Marvel when Carol refused to accept that she was in the wrong.

[t209]

She acts consistantly differant both before and after Civil War II. It's very clearly a case of the Writers being madated to do a tie-in storyline.

And she does change her behavior accordingly after the fact and

You need to reread. They explicitly stated that he was going to be released the next day(he was taken into captivity the day before the day he was supposedly going to do the thing Ulyses saw him doing, and was set to be released after the time the next day, I want to say 10:15 AM, that he would have done the thing he was forseen doing) and Bruno badly injured himself trying to break him out that night knowing that Josh was going to get out the next day.

And Bruno got injured because he tried to overload an electric lock, which triggered an explosion he was right next to. Again, needlessly, becuase he was physically there when it was said that Josh was going to be let out that night.

The guy with the exploding tank was held up longer because he stole a tank, which is an actual crime that he actually comitted, and also he's an actual Supervillain who had done actual crimes in the past.

The reason Ms. Marvel is presented as a victim is that she let her faith in Captain Marvel blind her and because Bruno blamed her for him injuring himself needlessly.

(Side note: Bruno is still capable of walking and a Oneshot showing him at that school in Wakanda establishes that his genius roomate is going to hook him up with a vibranium exoskeleton that's gonna take care of a lot of his problems in the short term and delay his degredation in the long term)

Ms. Marvel realized that she was on the wrong side, tried to explain to Captain Marvel that they were wrong, proved that they were wrong, and cut all tied with Captain Marvel when Carol refused to accept that she was in the wrong.

Also about the tank guy, even without pre-crime, he already committed a crime and red-handed. Like vehicle theft, pre-mediated attempty, and stolen parts. Yah, thanks for covering that.
And Bruno would be charged with prison break, property damage, and ohhhh, Terrorism for his stint. Oh jeez, you blame her without actually bothering to check or maybe the concept of trial, you peanut.
As I know, I happen to remember that it was Cadets' rather than Ms. marvel, at least Ms. Wilson give respect for Captain Marvel in her comic than events, which is alot compared to Highlords of Marvel who is too thick headed to realize their own mistakes.
*Gah* For trying to promote a movie that try to avoid the comic, they sure do want to repeat that. Also making Inhumans even more unlikable that I swear they would make Zeon and Titans (two nerve-gas happy bad guys) look like paragon good guys with flimsiest of excuse. Just read Zeta Gundam for superior version.
Also a little thing called "Source": https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/6335353.html#cutid1 (let's see...broken cars, caught in commiting rampage).
https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/6514626.html#cutid1 (Yep, blaming Kamal despite the fact that he was the one making the bomb. The only time a writer somehow made Bendis look like a moron, should have left Tomino write an entire saga. Ignore the bad dialogue, he can whip up a finest rebellion storyline.)
EDIT: SIde joke: This is like entire IvX in a nutshell. "Wait a minute, you have an Inhuman with elemental power that can condense gas and a Mutant who invented a vacuum cleaner on destroy settings. You know you can just put it in a tank? USE YOUR COCKADOODY MIND!"

[Xyril]

And Disney getting Fox means were now trying to stop hosing the X-men and Replacing them with Inhumans, so, that's a plus.

I actually liked the sequestration of X-Men. While there are a lot of cross-overs I really liked--the bizarre buddy cop movie of Wolverine and Spider-man--I always felt that there was this huge incongruity between X-Men and highly X-Men related series and the rest of Marvel as a whole. Yes, I understand that prejudice is supposed to be irrational and that this is probably a point the writers are deliberately trying to make, but I always found it hard to reconcile the widespread hatred and mistrust of all mutants, good or bad, with the general acceptance of pretty much every non-mutant super powered hero other than Spider-man and a few others (whose struggle to gain acceptance was a deliberate plot point.)

I especially found it hard to suspend my disbelief during Civil War I, since Cap and numerous others on the anti-registration side spent decades tacitly accepting mutant registration in some form. This is understandable from a creative standpoint--especially early on, crossovers were a big deal, there wasn't as much top down editorial guidance uniting the shared universe, so most titles just ignored events in others except when they conflicted in an obvious way. From a fan perspective, this gave the unfortunate impression that except for some very special crossovers where they were circumstances forced them to confront the mutant issue, most of the main Marvel heroes weren't bothered enough by anti-mutant discrimination to do (or even say) much about it. I could talk myself into suspending disbelief on this for quite a while--after all, when the Avengers are assembling to battle literally world-ending threats several times a year, it makes sense that we're not spending a lot of page time dealing with the Avengers starting a letter-writing campaign lobbying Congress to expand the Civil Rights Act to apply to mutants.

Civil War stretched disbelief a bit too much for me. A guy who fought actual Nazis being okay with legislation singling out people based primarily on ancestry--regardless of whether or not that X-gene actually gave them particularly useful or dangerous abilities? I could kind of live with that--it's natural when we age for last year's activists to become next year's complacent conservatives. It's much harder to swallow that this same guy suddenly leads an insurrection because he simply couldn't condone the fact that what was essentially existing anti-mutant legislation was expanded to also control guys who develop technology to give himself the military power of several naval carrier groups, guys who gained powers later in life due to cosmic rays, gamma rays, or radioactive spiders, and of course people who were born with power due to genes but not the X-gene. (Also, let's not forget that Cap was proud to wear red, white and blue despite the countries participation in anti-mutant legislation but did walk away that one time because Nixon.)

Leaving X-Men and the FF out of the MCU foreclosed a lot of great narrative threads from the comics that I really wanted to see on screen, but it also allowed the whole shared universe to be more cohesive and more consistent. Fear of Inhumans is slightly more acute because, in addition to their abilities, they are a distinct ethnic group and subculture that largely lived secretly and separately from other human, but it was also strongly coupled with changing attitudes towards superhumans in general. SHIELD secretly keeping the index of powered individuals, with mixed reactions from outsiders who find out about the practice, rings true. So does the fact that a few very public disasters brought about the Sokovia Accords, and with it Inhuman registration concurrent with the imposition of more government control over SHIELD and the Avengers. Trying to retcon in a history of mutant civil rights issues that is in any way consistent with the Fox continuity or the comic continuity in a way that isn't at odds with existing MCU canon would be at best tricky.

[KillingAScarab]

I actually liked the sequestration of X-Men. While there are a lot of cross-overs I really liked--the bizarre buddy cop movie of Wolverine and Spider-man--I always felt that there was this huge incongruity between X-Men and highly X-Men related series and the rest of Marvel as a whole. Yes, I understand that prejudice is supposed to be irrational and that this is probably a point the writers are deliberately trying to make, but I always found it hard to reconcile the widespread hatred and mistrust of all mutants, good or bad, with the general acceptance of pretty much every non-mutant super powered hero other than Spider-man and a few others (whose struggle to gain acceptance was a deliberate plot point.)

Ed Piskor's X-Men: Grand Design isn't intended to be canon, but one of the things he does in telling the X-Men's story is make the fear of mutants as a whole a better founded opinion. It was Namor's fault.

(Also, let's not forget that Cap... did walk away that one time because Nixon.)

I wish the recent Secret Empire event had been about Steve Englehart's Secret Empire. Thankfully, the actual Secret Empire provided the springboard for U.S.Avengers.

[Metahuman1]

Reguarding Civl War and X-men: Yeah, but they spend a massive amount of the time wtih Inhumans doing the same thing's they would do with X-men. You know, hated and feared, random powers so anyone could get them, all that. All they really did was make it so we got to watch a much more boring X-men.


And yes, Civil War 1 was a travesty, and Quesada should of been fired for it.





Back to Ms. Marvel: Except she picks up on several behaviors again after that little story arc. It's the most glaring example, but it's not an isolated incident for that character by a long shot. She keeps showing up and kicking people's doors open. She get's people arrested for crimes they haven't committed because she can't be bothered to think about what's going on just a little bit. She comes within inches and seconds of releasing a sentient zero day computer virus in the main S.H.I.E.L.D. comp systems to do whatever it pleases over high school drama that wouldn't even have been all that big a deal when I was in high school over 10 years ago (ZOMG! A girl likes another girl! It's 1970-something so of course no one's ever heard of that before now because the plot demands it! Except we have a smartphone as a plot device!) and bails at the last second, and rather then sit there and tell Agent Colsen "Hey, I've got a situation on my plate, I need some hackers, know any?" she calls up the guy she maimed to hit him up for a favor, and is surprised when he has hard feelings toward her for burning and permanently crippling him so that his only hope of walking again is his roomie who's currently nailing him in the arm by accident with a hot soldering iron cause Khamala is distracting them with the call, thus delaying work on that exoskeleton.

As for the friend, would he have been maimed in the first place if she'd NOT been strutting around with her little young authoritarian brigade locking people up for alleged things there going to do in the future with out any form of remorse for her? No, because he wouldn't have felt the need to go rescue people. Hell, she could of brought a lawyer in for them and explained they were going to get full benefit of rights to calm the situation down. She didn't. She stuck to her freaking guns.

So, when your the one stamping around grabbing people out of there homes with no warning and stripping there rights away form them whole sale, and someone else tries to rescue those people, I got news for you. You have ceased to be any kind of hero. Your the villain now, and the other person is now the hero. (Oh and delaying his degeneration. Meaning he's still getting worse regardless. Meaning no, this does NOT make up for what she was directly responsible for happening to him even a little. Nice try. He wouldn't be having degeneration at all if she could have not gone full Goose-step mode in the first place.)

And again, she's allegedly genera savvy and smart and big on helping and protecting oppressed minority's. Except that apparently she isn't cause she's fully willing to use the exact same tactics her enemy's are using at the drop of a hat. But it's ok when she does it but not when anyone else does it back at her apparently.





Oh, and as for Tank Guy. If they were holding him for that they should probably state that. They weren't. They explicitly stated they were holding him because in the future the tank blows up and that caused casualty's. That was it. And by there own metric, they had, at most, a couple of hours to hold him. SO, again, by there own, in universe, stated metric, they were just detaining him indefinably for a crime that hand't actually happened yet. And since that's the frame of reference were given, we extrapolate. If there holding people indefinitely, there, you guessed it, holding people indefinitely.

It's considered wrong when Nightwing Does it over at DC.

It's considered wrong when Daredevil and Iron Man have done it in the past.

It's considered wrong when S.H.I.E.L.D did it.

It's considered wrong when Spiderman did it.

It's considered wrong when anyone in the X-men continuity has done it.


Ms. Marvel is not so special that she get's a pass on that being wrong when she does it. And she was out there making the arrests and kicking in the doors shoulder to shoulder with the rest of them, so no, sorry, she's just as guilty.



And the sad part is, this was a character who had some potential. This was a character who could have worked if they'd gotten there crap together and put someone who can actually write on the book to watch for this kind of behavior and say "Hey, I know you got all emotional here, but, logic sorta shows that this hero is a villain by taking these actions and failing to learn the right lessons form them. Here are some adjustments you can make to fix that before the book ships.".

Hell, they could if they really wanted too, still fix this. It wouldn't even be that hard. Kid who got maimed bumps into some other kid at the college who's got some neat new medical nano tech there working on that fixes him up good as new.

Meanwhile, we spend a few Issues with Khamala being run through the wringer over her poorly though out behaviors. Maybe give her a new enemy who's also a shapeshifter who's doing it because sadist who's come into power and get's off on hurting others it perceives to have power (like super hero's for instance.). Or if you REALLY wanted to hit below the belt, have it be a relative of someone who wound up dead because of her BS who later got powers. Too Late to save there loved one, but there going to settle for the next best thing, revenge. Now Khamala has to face down the fact that she's created her own worst nightmare, and it's gleefully bludgeoning her over the head with her rather inexcusable lapses in judgement.

She eventually beats her new opponent, but the confrontation has left her having to reconsider her past actions, and how she's going to handle things going forward in and effort not to create another such monster.




"But that's too heavy for the fun light hearted book....." She lost the grounds to invoke that defense when she started kicking peoples doors in and dragging them off with out any semblance of due process to be detained evidently indefinitely.

Just like Peter Parker lost the grounds to claim the responsibility thing when he sold his marriage to the devil.

[KillingAScarab]

I had been holding off on reading Monsters Unleashed for awhile. My 1st copy of issue 8 had the printing error. I finally found a copy without it, and I'm glad I did.

Spoiler

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There's a splash page of Kei's monsters beating up on a Poison version of Fin Fang Foom but it also contains this wonderful exchange.

Mekara: I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel like a million dollars/greenbacks/bucks!
Scragg: The terrifying Scragg recognizes money as the root of greed and conflict! But--yes--all should tremble in awe at Scragg's physical well-being!

It also furthers my belief that on Earth 616 Jimmy Carter became Fin Fang Foom.

My enjoyment of Scragg continues in issue 9, though it's the start of a new writer. Justin Jordan seems to write Kei Kawade a bit older than I think he should sound, but I think I can forgive him.

Spoiler

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Elsa Bloodstone:They're bees. I hate bees. I despise bees. They're quite nearly as bad as clowns.
Kei Kawade: I think they're kind of cute.
Elsa: They're the size of lorries, you lunatic. I can't believe your parents agreed to this.
Scragg: The mighty Scragg conquered them through the overwhelming power of understanding.
Aegis: Scragg, tell me more about the part where you used an insect to hit another insect.

I'm torn on issue 10. For one thing, Scragg sleeps through all of it. On the other hand, Elsa Bloodstone takes on R'lyeh.

...well, not really R'lyeh. It isn't the same one which Magneto and then the X-Men hung around and nothing bad ever happened to children on.

Spoiler

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Bachan does a good job of drawing Elsa Bloodstone in this issue. I want to get a print of the page where Elsa turns to fight a housecat. It is too bad that Justin Jordan writes her out of the book. I feel like he could do quite a bit more with her.

McTavish: Bloodstone.
Elsa Bloodstone: McTavish.
McTavish: How, exactly, did you get on this boat, thousands of miles from everything?
Elsa Bloodstone: With great difficulty and considerable skill.

[t209]

Leaving X-Men and the FF out of the MCU foreclosed a lot of great narrative threads from the comics that I really wanted to see on screen, but it also allowed the whole shared universe to be more cohesive and more consistent. Fear of Inhumans is slightly more acute because, in addition to their abilities, they are a distinct ethnic group and subculture that largely lived secretly and separately from other human, but it was also strongly coupled with changing attitudes towards superhumans in general. SHIELD secretly keeping the index of powered individuals, with mixed reactions from outsiders who find out about the practice, rings true. So does the fact that a few very public disasters brought about the Sokovia Accords, and with it Inhuman registration concurrent with the imposition of more government control over SHIELD and the Avengers. Trying to retcon in a history of mutant civil rights issues that is in any way consistent with the Fox continuity or the comic continuity in a way that isn't at odds with existing MCU canon would be at best tricky.

That is if you ignore the unintentional insult that minorities and LGBT are caused by aliens from outside force rather than natural. I mean, NuHumans are still NuHumans and only need gas to get powers.
Of course, that is Marvel's excuse even in-universe.
Medusa: "We need out fart gas to repouplate."
Me: "OR rather condense it and make it in contained environment, you hair tentacled snot."

[Xyril]

Reguarding Civl War and X-men: Yeah, but they spend a massive amount of the time wtih Inhumans doing the same thing's they would do with X-men. You know, hated and feared, random powers so anyone could get them, all that. All they really did was make it so we got to watch a much more boring X-men.

True, but that worked for me because the Inhumans were living in secret, and only came into public awareness around the same time awareness of--and backlash against--powered people in general came into play. Everything you talk about, hatred and fear because of random powers, blah blah... I have no problem suspending disbelief on that. Substitute "could become a suicide bomber/mass shooter/vehicle attacker," and you see real people actually reacting similarly in real life. Where I have trouble following comic cannon is that for decades, people knew about mutants. (Also, I don't know if your characterization is entirely accurate, since I haven't follow X-men closely at all since House of M, but as I understand it, the initial mutation happens spontaneously, but beyond that it's heritable, and before House of M, many if not most mutants were descended from known mutants.) Almost since WWII, people have known about mutants, and largely hated and feared them because they could have dangerous powers, and no matter how often a few prominent teams of mutants more or less saved humanity, the public--and the government--more or less agreed that the risk of some of these guys becoming criminals or terrorists was so great that we really shouldn't give them the same civil rights normal humans had.

Meanwhile, this nearly half-century time period, you have the Fantastic Four, who spontaneously developed dangerous powers and were initially regarded with some suspicion, save the world once and are pretty much universally accepted as heroes (with a few hiccups.) Iron-Man's several orders of magnitude more powerful than a mutant like Leech or Toad, but the public mostly loved him and the government mostly left him alone. The only times this ever really changed was in response to his own bad decisions, whereas anti-mutant legislation is largely predicated on the idea that people that powerful shouldn't be trusted to make their own bad decisions. We have an Ant-man, a Prowler, the Black Cat, and probably dozens of others who were known outright criminals with powers (either intrinsic or technological) who were given second chances as heroes by a world that refused to give mutants even a first chance. Hulk's probably smashed a few trillion dollars worth of tanks and helicopters, and the government never really stops being leery of him, but he's had substantial periods of widespread public acceptance (certainly more than mutants) despite spending a lot of time walking around in nothing but a torn pair of pants, something that could get you or me registered as a sex offender in some states. Hell, even Boomerang gets let out on parole and as far as the government is concerned, he's paid his debt to society and should be left alone.

But beyond the general public, whose attitudes are often implied in the comics more than explicitly articulated, I found it hard to believe that a lot of main characters who were supposed to be moral exemplars within cannon would have the huge blind spot they did when it came to what was happening to mutants. I always go back to Cap because he was such a clear cut example. He grew up facing bullies and came into his own as a hero fighting genocide in WWII. This has defined him across all media--the MCU in particular was a bit heavy handed about drawing the Nazi comparisons. I vaguely remember a few plot lines where the Guardians, or the FF, or Doctor Strange would save some random race on an alien world or in a magical dimension, from a more powerful group trying to implement what I now realize is ethnic cleansing, or freed some group from race or caste-based slavery. It was just weird to me to see so many characters who apparently cared enough about these principles to risk their lives intervening on behalf of strangers, yet remained largely silent, if not complicit, when their own government was the perpetrator.

What I enjoy about shared universes is that I can immerse myself this big world, and without ever leaving that world, I can read a different story about a different character, written in an entirely different style, sometimes from an entirely distinct genre. When I was still reading X-men regularly, I was very aware that I was swapping imaginary worlds when I switched between X-man stuff and regular Marvel stuff. Obviously, that wasn't a deal breaker for me as a fan, but correcting that flaw is something I really enjoyed about the MCU.

[Xyril]

That is if you ignore the unintentional insult that minorities and LGBT are caused by aliens from outside force rather than natural. I mean, NuHumans are still NuHumans and only need gas to get powers.
Of course, that is Marvel's excuse even in-universe.

I strongly suspect that you're trying to imply that I said something that I did not, but I can't really say for sure since your comment really isn't clear in any way, and I can only guess as to the point you're trying to make. Can you please be more clear. What precisely are you referring to when you say that "minorities and LGBT are caused by aliens"? Is this what you believe? Is this what you think Marvel stated, and if so, can you please cite the specific work?

[Rater202]

Mutants never chose to be mutants and get a lot of hate for things outside of their control.

Marvel has regularly used them as a metaphor for LGTBI or minorities during times when addressing the group in question wouldn't have flown.

The Inhumans, on the other hand, choose to develop their powers, except for the Nuhumans who kind of had it forced on them.

So a certain executive sidelining the X-Men and replacing them with the Inhumans and having Inhumans take the place of Mutants in discrimination based stories is unintentionally sending the message that people can choose to be black or gay or transgendered, basically. Later, with the Nu humans, it unintentionally sends the message that gay/black/trans people can just randomly make people gay/black/trans.

Also, while Mutants are considered a human subspecies(Homo sapien superior compared to baseline humanity's Homo sapien sapien) Inhumans are stated to be similar to but fundementally diffeant from humans, the name literally means not human, and scientifically speaking they're not even the same genus as humans(the scientific name for pureblooded inhumans is Inhomo supremus, "highest not-man") which furthers the unfortunate implications significantly as the inhumans are literally not human.

It's clearly not intentional on the part of the Marvel executives, but it's a case of the action having unfortunate implications when you think about it hard enough.

As for "aliens cause it," the Inhumans were genetically engineered from Neanderthals by the Kree and the Terrigen the Inhumans use to give themselves powers was created by the Kree. But since both those Neanderthals and the specific bloodlines that became mutants are descendants of Homo erectus that were genetically modified by the Celestials, that one also kind of applies to mutants(Note, this means that Homo s. superior and Inhomo supremus are evolutionary cousins, which makes the fact that they're biologically incompatible absolutely baffling)

[Xyril]

Mutants never chose to be mutants and get a lot of hate for things outside of their control.

Marvel has regularly used them as a metaphor for LGTBI or minorities during times when addressing the group in question wouldn't have flown.

The Inhumans, on the other hand, choose to develop their powers, except for the Nuhumans who kind of had it forced on them.

So a certain executive sidelining the X-Men and replacing them with the Inhumans and having Inhumans take the place of Mutants in discrimination based stories is unintentionally sending the message that people can choose to be black or gay or transgendered, basically. Later, with the Nu humans, it unintentionally sends the message that gay/black/trans people can just randomly make people gay/black/trans.

I guess I don't really see it that way because 1) in the MCU at least, I get the impression that it's not the choice to undergo terrigenesis that earns their hate--even latent Inhumans are already "tainted" by alien DNA, 2)

Also, while Mutants are considered a human subspecies(Homo sapien superior compared to baseline humanity's Homo sapien sapien) Inhumans are stated to be similar to but fundementally diffeant from humans, the name literally means not human, and scientifically speaking they're not even the same genus as humans(the scientific name for pureblooded inhumans is Inhomo supremus, "highest not-man") which furthers the unfortunate implications significantly as the inhumans are literally not human.

As I understand it, Inhumans picked their own name in part as a deliberate act of defiance. Whether you accept that or--like Senator Nadir (I believe)-- want to try to interpret that as a slur against regular humans, really has no bearing on whether--scientifically speaking--Inhumans are, as you claim, "not human." From a biological perspective, Daisy's existence and the existence in general of Inhumans who have interbred with "normal" humans and produced fertile offspring, and the fact that the ability to undergo terrigenesis is passed down as a genetic trait that can go to one child and not the other (unless you want to argue a bunch of implied infidelity), pretty much fits the definition of Inhumans being human.

It's clearly not intentional on the part of the Marvel executives, but it's a case of the action having unfortunate implications when you think about it hard enough.

The problem is that the unfortunate implication requires that you think way too hard about it, and also look beyond the MCU--which we're talking about--deep into the history of Marvel. Look at your logical chain: Mutants are a analogy for real minorities because it was hard to discuss them directly. Mutants were used by Marvel comics (simultaneously with Inhumans, I might add.) The MCU is based in part on Marvel Comics. The MCU has used Inhumans to fill part of the narrative gap left by mutants. That last bit is the most tenuous link, I think, because Inhumans retained a lot of their own distinct story, they only took a small part of the X-Men/mutant role in the overall narrative, and as I have ranted about repeatedly, in Civil War I in the comics, mutants had an irrationally and frankly shamefully small part in a crossover that dealt with the most central issues to the X-men franchise.

Your argument seems to be that, in a changed culture where people are much more socially aware, and it's become acceptable for Marvel to deal directly and explicitly with race and sexual orientation--which they have, both in comic and in the MCU--we need to be careful that the Inhumans are a perfect analogy with minorities and the LGBT community, because Intellectual Property issues forced them to fill a prominent role in the Civil War MCU plotline, the comic version of which involved the X-men filling a similar--albeit smaller--role, and the X-men are mutants who, as any Marvel fan knows, were historically one of the only ways--certainly the most prominent way--we were talking about these social issues in comics.

I know that comes off as a bit dismissive, and I truly don't mean for it to, but I think that you're fundamentally underestimating the capacity of the modern audience--even the young ones--to grasp nuance in our complex world, and at the same time might be disregarding a few important narrative nuances yourself. On top of that, the distinctions you point out actually do exist in our world, and it might be useful to present them in a fantasy narrative setting with less real world baggage. How do you evaluate someone who claims he has no problem with someone being born with Inhuman DNA, but because they make a choice to undergo terrigenesis? Does he practice what he preaches, and if so, is this a deliberate choice, or merely a consequence of the fact that he doesn't know when he's dealing with an unpowered Inhuman? If he's confronted with the knowledge that someone is an Inhuman, but has no powers and chooses never to gain them, does he treat that person with respect, or does his true bigotry reveal itself?

These mirror issues in the real world. While I regard most claims about Islam and less mainstream religions are largely false and motivated by bigotry, religion occupies a weird space where it is both heritable and a choice. Most people stick with the religion they were born into. Some leave the religion, many more remain nominally in the faith but become far less devout, others move to similar faiths due to marriage or other reasons. Far fewer convert to an entirely different faith because they feel a calling they didn't feel in the faith they were raised with. Religion isn't what the Supreme Court called an "immutable difference," yet they found that it was such an integral part of our personal identity and our family history that it deserved similar protections to race and gender. At what point is attacking someone for their religious choices a legitimate criticism of their conscious decisions, and at what point is it a bigoted attack on their identity? Is it right to tell one group that we will only accept them if they consciously decide to reject a birthright they never asked for, while not imposing the same difficult choice on other groups?

[Rater202]

I guess I don't really see it that way because 1) in the MCU at least, I get the impression that it's not the choice to undergo terrigenesis that earns their hate--even latent Inhumans are already "tainted" by alien DNA, 2)

That's great, but this thread in general and t209 in particular is talking about the comics.

Note his comment about "fart gas" which refers to the Terrigen Clouds circling the world and causing fatal allergies in mutants which the Inhumans knew about for months but refused to do anything about until it was literally just a few days from sublimating out and killing every mutant on the planetinsteadof just getting a super vacum, condensing the gas down, and going back to Terrigensis chambers like thy used to use.

Medusa: Terrigensis isn'st worth it if even a single mutant dies! She says and destroys the Cloud at the end of Inhumans vs X-Men... except that she's known for months that Terrigen has been killing mutants and many had already died to M-Pox, at least one right in front of Medusa.

The writing for the conflict was just terrible.

From a biological perspective, Daisy's existence and the existence in general of Inhumans who have interbred with "normal" humans and produced fertile offspring, and the fact that the ability to undergo terrigenesis is passed down as a genetic trait that can go to one child and not the other (unless you want to argue a bunch of implied infidelity), pretty much fits the definition of Inhumans being human.

This is a comic book. This is a universe where their are multible hybrids of species that are not even from the same planet(Hulkling is Half-Kree and Half-Skrull, who are mammalian and reptilain respectivly and IIRC not even from the same galaxy)

Marvel, in General, runs on the "anything human looking can breed with humans" fantasy trope. The point is, in-universe, Inhumans are not considered humans.

In fact, in the first or second issue of A-Force volume 2, a cosmic being breaks an inhuman down to study him

Spoiler: Image

Show

Your argument seems to be that, in a changed culture where people are much more socially aware, and it's become acceptable for Marvel to deal directly and explicitly with race and sexual orientation--which they have, both in comic and in the MCU--we need to be careful that the Inhumans are a perfect analogy with minorities and the LGBT community, because Intellectual Property issues forced them to fill a prominent role in the Civil War MCU plotline, the comic version of which involved the X-men filling a similar--albeit smaller--role, and the X-men are mutants who, as any Marvel fan knows, were historically one of the only ways--certainly the most prominent way--we were talking about these social issues in comics.

Nope, not making that argument at all. Again, the thread in general and the comment you quoted, in particular, were specifically talking about the situation involving Mutants and Inhumans in the comics.

What I'm saying is that, in the comics, we have one group of Superhumans who did not choose to be what they are being descriminated against for things outside of their control. And we have one executive who dislikes them and decided to ruin them as an intellectual property becuase he was mad that the company gave their film rights to Fox.

And This same executive also loves this other group of Superhumans who did choose to be what they are and he keeps trying to insist that they are totally exactly the same as the first group even though no, they're not. The group that chose to mutate themselves and finds themselves descrimnated against for it is not the same as the group being discriminated against becuase they happened to be born differant.

The X-Men have always been used as a metaphor for things like Homosexuality: "Have you tried not being a mutant" has come up word for word more than once. Doing that kind of storyline with the inhumans, who chose to be what they are, instead of mutants who were born that way...

You don't have to think "too hard" to see the unintentional and unfortunate implications.

Especially considering that the Inhumans relied on Slave Labor until not that long ago and in general are kind of jerks to people who aren't inhumans.

Tony Stark: "I think we should test Ulyses powers before acting on them."
Medusa: "Nope,sorry, not gonna happen."
Tony: "Seriously, people are getting hurt becaUlyssesople are acting on Ulysses predictions but half the time they're causing the problems he's seeing and"
Inhumans: *Destroy large amounts of Stark property for Tony's insolence*

Or Medusa 616's first response to Singularity in A-Force being to clap her in cuffs and offer to give her to the monster that wants to destroy her becuase she's there--singularity who is physically a teenager, mentally a child, and remembers Medusa as a friend do to ahaving first met her on Battleworld in A-Force volume and whose first word to Medusa were "friend." she changes her mind around the time Anti-Matter deconstructs and studies and Inhuman soldier(see above.)

[Xyril]

That's great, but this thread in general and t209 in particular is talking about the comics.

That's great, but the comment I was responding to referenced MCU specifically. The comment that I made was obviously in response to that MCU reference--I even quoted it and everything to make it easier--though I did relate it back to something that has always troubled me about the Marvel comic-verse. The portion of my comment that t209 quoted specifically referenced the MCU. Now, I don't claim to be an expert, but as I understand it, when somebody goes through the trouble of cutting out a specific part of your comment to quote, and posts response that seems to require some sort of context to fully understand, the presumption is that he wants you to look towards the quote for context. Thus, the logical assumption that t209 had some issue with my characterization of the MCU.

I do appreciate you taking the time to explain the reference to the comic universe--though it only reinforces my belief that X-Men were always a bit out of place among the rest of Marvel, and now I'm even more troubled that they might be handling bigotry metaphors in general. Bit of a disappointment to hear you talk about the ending of that last Inhuman arc--I followed Medusa's Inhumans comic dealing with the aftermath of the Terrigen bomb, but the writing fell enough that I stopped--not really a deliberate decision not to read, just lowering it on my priority list to be something that I'd binge on when I had more free time, but from your opinion it seems like I shouldn't bother. Oh well, more time to follow the 57 Spider-man related titles out there.

[Rater202]

For the record, I was replying specifically to a post you made that had a segment of t209's post quoted that had no referances to the MCU.

I do appreciate you taking the time to explain the reference to the comic universe--though it only reinforces my belief that X-Men were always a bit out of place among the rest of Marvel, and now I'm even more troubled that they might be handling bigotry metaphors in general. Bit of a disappointment to hear you talk about the ending of that last Inhuman arc--I followed Medusa's Inhumans comic dealing with the aftermath of the Terrigen bomb, but the writing fell enough that I stopped--not really a deliberate decision not to read, just lowering it on my priority list to be something that I'd binge on when I had more free time, but from your opinion it seems like I shouldn't bother. Oh well, more time to follow the 57 Spider-man related titles out there

Oh, that's not the latest Inhumans arc. That's Inhumans Vs. X-men and a little bit of Civil War II before it

The latest Inhumans arc is the Royals ongoing title, where Inhumans stop gettting shoved down people's throats as an alternative to the X-Men and the Inhuman Royal family goes into space to get the secrets of makin more terrigen from the Kree directly and in general just go back to being the kind of stories that the Inhumans did before being touted as an X-Men substitute by the Inhumans Fanboy in the executie chair.

though it only reinforces my belief that X-Men were always a bit out of place among the rest of Marvel, and now I'm even more troubled that they might be handling bigotry metapho

That's literally the whole reason X-Men exist.

The X-Men, and Mutants, were created, and Mutants are hated so much, beucase back in the 1960s a comic book about black and gay superheroes fighting against bigotry and discrimination would have been met with backlash and/or would have failed to find a mainstream audiance, so mutants were used as a metaphor. Becuase back then, comics didn't have the level ofmain stream staying power to take hits like that and keep going.

Now a days, mutants have evolved beyond that(being treated as a specific group rather thna a metaphor for any and every minority since that can be spoken about more directly nowadays) but that's where they came from and why trying to replace them with the Inhumans, who really aren't anything like the mutants based on where their powers come from or their history in the world, has such unfortunate implications.

[Xyril]

That's literally the whole reason X-Men exist.

The X-Men, and Mutants, were created, and Mutants are hated so much, beucase back in the 1960s a comic book about black and gay superheroes fighting against bigotry and discrimination would have been met with backlash and/or would have failed to find a mainstream audiance, so mutants were used as a metaphor.

I must be doing something wrong, because people keep saying this to me as if I don't know this already. Let me be concise and unambiguous.

I know X-Men began as a way to explore real bigotry without using real minority groups.

I liked reading X-Men.

I think that the way that it was dealt with within X-Men centered continuity was often well done, and even when it wasn't, I still enjoyed reading it even though keeping track of that continuity became more and more complicated.

I simply felt that the X-Men corner of the universe was highly incongruous with the rest of the Marvel comic universe. In the X-Men universe, the conflict between mutants and the government isn't depicted as some obscure thing that most people simply don't notice--it's depicted as headline news with a real impact on national politics. Moreover, many of the mainstream Marvel heroes would know about this conflict even if it weren't news--they know mutants personally. To me, it takes too much work to convince myself that the events of X-Men can be happening in the wider universe without having more of an impact on events than they do.

I can certainly imagine arguments that would reconcile these apparent inconsistencies, but I don't recall anyone really doing so in the comics.

[t209]

I was talking about the comic actually, it's just that you sounded pretty naivete about the universe.
Yes, you can also apply that to MCU where the gas release give them powers that undermined the minority message along with Inhuman's xenophobia and caste system that would put Tau (think Kree, except likable even by Marvel standards) to shame, like Rater 202 already said (sorry for being late). If it was given under a real writer without executive mandate, Kamala Khan would form a spilter colony that actually try to be different from Inhuman-mainstream and try to help people. Also Marvel still don't get idea about making them likable and try to pry in with the worst excuse.
Of course, this not mentioning Marvel's ignorance that not all Inhumans get to be awesome and sometimes ended up worse. I think all those inbreeding might have affected their brains in my headcanon.
edit: Also I discovered that they've seen giving subtle insults to critics by having a reasonable Inhuman kingdom that didn't use slaves and caste system (ignoring an ill attempt at how cool they are in the announcement) that kidnap people and eugenics (*cough* Only MCU slimeballs without knowledge that Attilans done that will be intrigued by that). Sorry Marvel, you had to do better than that.

I simply felt that the X-Men corner of the universe was highly incongruous with the rest of the Marvel comic universe. In the X-Men universe, the conflict between mutants and the government isn't depicted as some obscure thing that most people simply don't notice--it's depicted as headline news with a real impact on national politics. Moreover, many of the mainstream Marvel heroes would know about this conflict even if it weren't news--they know mutants personally. To me, it takes too much work to convince myself that the events of X-Men can be happening in the wider universe without having more of an impact on events than they do.

I can certainly imagine arguments that would reconcile these apparent inconsistencies, but I don't recall anyone really doing so in the comics.

And Inhumans narrative made it even worse. Like a ton of people who are screwed over, which Black Bolt should get more blame than the bigots since he gassed everyone and made them abominations.
And let's not mention the more abominable things that include Triton whose gift happen to be unable to stay on surface.

[Xyril]

I was talking about the comic actually, it's just that you sounded pretty naivete about the universe.

Just some friendly advice... you undercut your condescending smallsigh by using the wrong form of the word naive.

If you could take the time to be bit more clear and articulate about what specific point you take issue with, and maybe put a little less effort into being cutesy patronizing, maybe I could learn something from you. What precisely about my previous statements do you find "naivete"? I've repeated and rephrased my main points already, but to reiterate: 1) I liked the role of mutants in talking about discrimination early on. 2) The way it's done is poorly integrated into the rest of the Marvel universe. Though this lack of congruity is only a small part of the reason I haven't followed X-men closely in a long time, it is nonetheless one of the reasons, and as I have repeatedly acknowledged, this is one reason why I don't really know the details of how they are handling mutants and Inhumans.

Only MCU slimeballs without knowledge that Attilans done that will be intrigued by that). Sorry Marvel, you had to do better than that.

A few points for the record. 1) I know about the ugly history of the Inhumans in the comic universe. 2) The fact that Attilan, as a nation, kind of undercuts your original point. In my opinion, bigotry based on country of affiliation is still bigotry, and bigotry against people who just happened to be caught in the terrigen cloud is inexcusable, but it's much less of a black and white issue when you can argue that voluntarily exposing yourself to terrigen is a conscious decision to align yourself with the Inhuman nation and that it's not prejudice to make a moral judgment on that decision.

3) If you can't go three paragraphs without resorting to insults and personal attacks, I'm just going to step out.

[Xyril]

Just some friendly advice... you undercut your condescending smallsigh by using the wrong form of the word naive.

If you could take the time to be bit more clear and articulate about what specific point you take issue with, and maybe put a little less effort into being cutesy patronizing, maybe I could learn something from you. What precisely about my previous statements do you find "naivete"? I've repeated and rephrased my main points already, but to reiterate: 1) I liked the role of mutants in talking about discrimination early on. 2) The way it's done is poorly integrated into the rest of the Marvel universe. Though this lack of congruity is only a small part of the reason I haven't followed X-men closely in a long time, it is nonetheless one of the reasons, and as I have repeatedly acknowledged, this is one reason why I don't really know the details of how they are handling mutants and Inhumans.

Yes, you can also apply that to MCU where the gas release give them powers that undermined the minority message along with Inhuman's xenophobia and caste system

You could, but it would be a huge and disingenuous stretch. For one thing, the Inhuman's xenophobia and caste system didn't exist, as far as the people doing the fearing and discriminating were concerned. Before the Inhuman series, every single Inhuman being discriminated against was either some random person who had no idea about their ancestry and made zero choices regarding that ancestry, or they were simply part of a network of Inhuman diaspora who barely remember their links to those who would eventually found Attilan. By that reasoning, if Israel did something that the world finds immoral, the whole "antisemitism is bad" message is undermined.

We live in a world where we should take the time to understand nuance, rather than trying to whitewash it in the name of "not undermining the minority message." In fact, I would argue that perhaps it's your worldview that has unfortunate, and potentially harmful implications. If our fiction only depicts prejudice as bad when the oppressed minority 1) has zero control over whether or not people consider him part of that minority 2) no members of that minority group have ever done anything morally questionable and 3) that minority group isn't affiliated with a history of morally questionable acts, then what does that say about how we should treat bigotry when the minority isn't a "perfect victim?" People could start arguing that it's okay to judge Roman Catholics because remaining in that faith is a deliberate choice to condone the Church's history of brutal human rights abuses. That Japanese-Americans who choose to learn to speak Japanese are fair game because they're signalling their approval of Japan's wartime atrocities.

Or, since you keep bringing up Inhumans and the LGBT community and you clearly know more about the current state of the Inhumans/X-men corner of Marvel, let me ask you something. You equate an Inhuman choosing to whether or not to undergo a transformation with a gay person choosing whether or not to act on his same sex attraction. You claim that this undercuts the minority message because prejudiced characters are claiming that they don't target Inhumans for their ancestry--which they can't help--but for their decision to gain powers, which to me strongly parallels the real life people who claim "I don't hate gay people, as long as they follow my religion's rules and never have sex with another man." My question for you is this: In the comics, the guys who are arguing for laws targeting Inhumans with powers, are they ever depicted sympathetically? I mean this on the long term.

As an example of what I mean, I would argue that Civil War I (comics) was strongly biased in favor of being anti-registration propaganda. While pro-registration was initially depicted as being a sympathetic and reasonable point of view, over the course of the arc they were shown to have made so many moral compromises and to have caused so many horrible, unintended consequences, that by the end of the arc, the message was basically that the road to hell is paved with good, but authoritarian, intentions.



Also, few points for the record. 1) I know about the ugly history of the Inhumans in the comic universe. 2) The fact that Attilan, as a nation, kind of undercuts your original point. In my opinion, bigotry based on country of affiliation is still bigotry, and bigotry against people who just happened to be caught in the terrigen cloud is inexcusable, but it's much less of a black and white issue when you can argue that voluntarily exposing yourself to terrigen is a conscious decision to align yourself with the Inhuman nation and that it's not prejudice to make a moral judgment on that decision.

3) Can we please try to go three paragraphs without resorting to insults and personal attacks?

[t209]

If you could take the time to be bit more clear and articulate about what specific point you take issue with, and maybe put a little less effort into being cutesy patronizing, maybe I could learn something from you. What precisely about my previous statements do you find "naivete"? I've repeated and rephrased my main points already, but to reiterate: 1) I liked the role of mutants in talking about discrimination early on. 2) The way it's done is poorly integrated into the rest of the Marvel universe. Though this lack of congruity is only a small part of the reason I haven't followed X-men closely in a long time, it is nonetheless one of the reasons, and as I have repeatedly acknowledged, this is one reason why I don't really know the details of how they are handling mutants and Inhumans.

Well, I thought that you were new to Marvel comics after seeing MCU franchise.

Or, since you keep bringing up Inhumans and the LGBT community and you clearly know more about the current state of the Inhumans/X-men corner of Marvel, let me ask you something. You equate an Inhuman choosing to whether or not to undergo a transformation with a gay person choosing whether or not to act on his same sex attraction. You claim that this undercuts the minority message because prejudiced characters are claiming that they don't target Inhumans for their ancestry--which they can't help--but for their decision to gain powers, which to me strongly parallels the real life people who claim "I don't hate gay people, as long as they follow my religion's rules and never have sex with another man." My question for you is this: In the comics, the guys who are arguing for laws targeting Inhumans with powers, are they ever depicted sympathetically? I mean this on the long term.

As an example of what I mean, I would argue that Civil War I (comics) was strongly biased in favor of being anti-registration propaganda. While pro-registration was initially depicted as being a sympathetic and reasonable point of view, over the course of the arc they were shown to have made so many moral compromises and to have caused so many horrible, unintended consequences, that by the end of the arc, the message was basically that the road to hell is paved with good, but authoritarian, intentions.
That and combining that with the Inhumans being only likable in creator's eyes (i.e- a sense of moral dissonance that is villainous in our eyes).



Also, few points for the record. 1) I know about the ugly history of the Inhumans in the comic universe. 2) The fact that Attilan, as a nation, kind of undercuts your original point. In my opinion, bigotry based on country of affiliation is still bigotry, and bigotry against people who just happened to be caught in the terrigen cloud is inexcusable, but it's much less of a black and white issue when you can argue that voluntarily exposing yourself to terrigen is a conscious decision to align yourself with the Inhuman nation and that it's not prejudice to make a moral judgment on that decision.

Well, the problem is that majority of the Nu Humans do not have choice in becoming one as it involved Inhumans allowing the gas to pass through sometimes without warning. Though they changed the game with city being evacuated with those who wish to join them stayed, but sometimes I feel if it was an afterthought. And other that didn't help was that Mutants are potrayed as villains, even in Secret Empire which is ignoring that Hydra also tend to be anti-Mutants and Magneto might not inclined to join them, despite them having good points like not like being gassed or bothered to help.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, I thought that you were new to Marvel comics after seeing MCU franchise.


Well, the problem is that majority of the Nu Humans do not have choice in becoming one as it involved Inhumans allowing the gas to pass through sometimes without warning. Though they changed the game with city being evacuated with those who wish to join them stayed, but sometimes I feel if it was an afterthought. And other that didn't help was that Mutants are potrayed as villains, even in Secret Empire which is ignoring that Hydra also tend to be anti-Mutants and Magneto might not inclined to join them, despite them having good points like not like being gassed or bothered to help.

Except Karnak who apparently learned super powers naturally.
Wonder what he would learn if gas'd.