Idea for fair Ability Score Generation

[Mongobear]

Bit of explanation.

In the last few adventures my group has started, we have stuck to the old school rolled stats method. It usually goes well, but almost every time, two or more PCs end up on extreme ends of the possible stat arrays, one of them has a high stat of 14 after racials with three stats below 10, and one of them has a god array with their lowest stat being a 13 and 3 18-20's after Racials. Obviously this immediately creates a huge rift in power between the party, and even if Hercules makes a dysfunctional build like a strength based melee Illusionist, they will likely vastly outperform Derpy McDerpface even if they try and power game something like a Coffee lock or Sorcadin.

So, I am trying to figure out a way to balance Ability Score generation, without falling back to Point Buy or Standard Array, as they're sort of boring and encourage min/max stats like 15 15 15 8 8 8. One player suggested "pooled group rolls" where each player rolls an array, and anyone can use any array, so that everyone could be Hercules, but that makes me dread the thought of trying to balance encounters since they will be fairly strong for their levels.

Another suggested a combination of Standard Array and Point Buy, where your base stats are 15 14 13 12 10 8, but you get a few points to increase them on a 1 to 1 basis, like Diablo style RPGs. Example, you get 5 points to spend, you could turn the array into 18(15 +3) 14 13 12 10 10(8 +2). Then apply racials as normal. This seemed the most promising, despite being a combination of two boring methods, it allows a decent amount of customization as well as being fair for everyone, not having any parties with huge power differences solely from unlucky stat rolls.

What are your thoughts on this method? Is it too strong, or does it need altered or buffed in some way? I do have concerns in allowing the possibility in starting with a 20, but it's not as bad as somebody like Hercules having 3 of them.

NOTE: I know as a DM I could have let the Derpy player reroll his array, or just gave him the standard array but he insisted on keeping the final array since he was used to it, I just felt bad for him. He did reroll bad arrays twice, getting a best result of 7 9 9 11 12 12, compared to Hercules with 13 14 14 17 18 18, the player is super unlucky at rolling dice during character creation.

Swapping dice doesn't work, he will roll a 6 on 4d6 with anything he touches. He is actually able to roll loaded dice and not get the loaded result about half of the time. He is a statistical anomaly.

[Malifice]

Tell them to man up and roll 3d6 in order.

[Errata]

Another suggested a combination of Standard Array and Point Buy, where your base stats are 15 14 13 12 10 8, but you get a few points to increase them on a 1 to 1 basis, like Diablo style RPGs. Example, you get 5 points to spend, you could turn the array into 18(15 +3) 14 13 12 10 10(8 +2). Then apply racials as normal. This seemed the most promising, despite being a combination of two boring methods, it allows a decent amount of customization as well as being fair for everyone, not having any parties with huge power differences solely from unlucky stat rolls.

I'm skeptical that this is solving an actual problem. It seems more prone to min/maxing than the point buy scheme you claim it's an improvement over.

You say 15 15 15 8 8 8 is a problem, yet under your system, 16 16 15 12 10 8 is a perfectly valid option, which is just across the board better than the min/max point buy. The type of player who would go 15 15 15 8 8 8 in point buy would probably use your system to start with 20 in their primary attribute, which is nuts. There is pretty much zero chance that they would use 2 points to boost the minimum to 10.

If your actual goal is to let the players have more overpowered attributes, then it's up to you, but don't present it as a balanced alternative character creation scheme.

[Solunaris]

I've got one for you, and this isn't my idea but I've forgotten who I stole it from.

Roll 18 dice at once and arrange them in order of high to low. Now, take them as groups of three and that is your array. It almost guarantees one 18 and one 3 allowing for every character to have a weakness and a strength.

Of course, you can add more dice and knock off the low end or set a minimum stat to keep from 3's but I like having a terrible stat.

[Arcangel4774]

Somebody mentioned on a different thread something along the line of rolling 18d6 and applying each d6 result as you wish, with only 3 rolls for per stat.

[Belzique]

Decide the power level you want your players to have and have them roll until they get an array that is within that frame.

Hypothetical example: I want my campaign to have a power level equal to the standard array, which means approximately +7 in total modifiers after applying racial bonuses (+3 +3 +1 +1 0 -1). I therefore have my players roll until they have an array that ranges from +4 to +6 in total modifiers pre racial bonuses, meaning it's likely to be +6 to +8 afterwards.

People get to roll, the arrays are randomly distributed and everyone is on the same level. It's basically "4d6 drop 1, if you roll suck-level stats you reroll, if you roll god-level stats you reroll".

[Mongobear]

Tell them to man up and roll 3d6 in order.

Lol, I actually think that would make better arrays for Derpt than standard 4d6b3

I'm skeptical that this is solving an actual problem. It seems more prone to min/maxing than the point buy scheme you claim it's an improvement over.

You say 15 15 15 8 8 8 is a problem, yet under your system, 16 16 15 12 10 8 is a perfectly valid option, which is just across the board better than the min/max point buy. The type of player who would go 15 15 15 8 8 8 in point buy would probably use your system to start with 20 in their primary attribute, which is nuts. There is pretty much zero chance that they would use 2 points to boost the minimum to 10.

If your actual goal is to let the players have more overpowered attributes, then it's up to you, but don't present it as a balanced alternative character creation scheme.

I'm not trying to fix point buy, or allow all players to have an OP array, I want them to have an equal footing as everyone else, while still being able to customize themselves for any desired stat requirements. I realize this just sounds like I want Point Buy, but the PHB Point Buy is just boring.

Also, we're already used to having high starting stats, have been rolling stats since 5e came out and we converted from 3.X, all having a 20 really does is allow one extra Feat or a secondary stat to be higher than AL style arrays. I actually trust everyone not to min/max this system, as the one time we did use Point Buy for an impromptu one-off, everyone bought their stats to at least 10.

[Cespenar]

One of my DMs had tried something like 2d6+6 for everyone. It creates in the range of 8-18, has an average of 13, and generally makes for pretty strong sets, with lower variance between party members.

You could fiddle slightly with the main rolling method and create lots of possibilities anyway, without going all radical.

Our main method was 4d6b3, 7 times, for example. Try 5d6b3 x7. Or 4d6b3 x10. Heck, do 6d6b3 x6.

Or again, 4d6b3 x7, but reroll 1s all the time.

P.S. Modifying encounters for stronger characters shouldn't be that hard, by the way. If they have such god-arrays, just imagine a 1 level higher party (apart from special cases like a level 1 party).

[DeadMech]

Sounds like the reason I like point buy. Everyone gets something appropriate, balanced, and no one has to Leeroy Jenkins themselves over and over.

But something I have wanted to try was a dice pool. Get everyone to roll 6 3d6 (or 6 4d6drop lowest, or 7 drop lowest 3d6, or whatever.) and put the results in a pool. Then have the players take turns picking one score at a time. Or maybe get them to pick one each simultaneously. Everyone should end up with roughly equal stats to each other unless they do something unusual and deliberately choose a worse number to leave better ones for someone with a MAD build.

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 Plus 5 points isn't terrible. 18 16 13 12 10 8 is probably just as likely a result as 18 14 13 12 10 10. If not more so.

[Vorok]

I realize this just sounds like I want Point Buy, but the PHB Point Buy is just boring.

Boring for who? Have your players (who are the ones creating the PCs) told you that point buy is boring? If it's only you, why do you, as a gm, care?

But on topic, you could do something like the 'roll stats, but if it's under x, reroll' x being a sum of the stats, you could do something like 78, which is on average, a 13 in a stat. It gives you a floor, so that even if they roll 'poorly', they will still have pretty good stats, there will be less disparity between the party members.

[Dyndrilliac]

I know this is a sensitive topic to some, and many have deeply held beliefs on the "right" way to generate stats. I just fundamentally don't understand why people use anything other than point buy. Don't get me wrong, once upon a time was a die-hard supporter of rolling for stats. I liked the possibility of getting lucky, I told myself. I liked the variation, so characters didn't feel quite so cookie cutter, I rationalized. But I have long since seen the error of my ways.

The luck factor, while initially seeming like a feature, is a really a bug. This is because it generally makes the game less fun for players who get bad rolls, which does happen from time to time. Sure, you can let those players reroll, but at that point you're just guaranteeing that they will either get an average roll or better than average roll - at which point you might as well have just stuck to a better than average point buy saving yourselves some time and effort. On the flip side, if for some reason you want weaker PCs, no problem - just use a below average point buy.

The only argument that seems to hold water under scrutiny is variation. But, this is only because the vanilla game offers no incentives for starting out with odd-numbered stats except possibly taking a +1 ASI feat later on to make it even. Want more variation, so not every character has all even scores? Provide incentives for choosing to take odd scores. Typically what I'll do is allow players to commit to keeping one or two attributes at odd numbers in exchange for flavor ribbons, like one of the "common" magic items from Xanathar's, or a permanent blessing from their deity that does something equally cool but not mechanically unbalancing (like an extra skill/language/tool proficiency based on their deity).

[MxKit]

You could always roll 4d6 drop the lowest yourself until you get a result that looks fair to you (not horribly weak due to bad luck but not God Stats due to overly lucky rolls), and let everyone use that. Combining randomization with your own standard array.

Or you could use what I've seen called the "Weal & Woe" system; let everyone choose one stat to put a 16 into and one stat to put an 8 into, then roll 4d6 drop the lowest for the rest. That way, everyone's guaranteed to have a possibility of an 18 in at least one stat to start with.

Or get your stats via playing blackjack! Anything above an 18 you either drop it down to 18 (if only two cards) or you have to drop a card from it (if three or more cards), and a bust gets you an 8. Maybe your bad luck roller will have a bit better luck with cards. :P

[KillingTime]

A few other slightly quirky ways to generate stats:

Standard Array -2 +d4
Gives you the random element without deviating too far from a solid central value

Point buy (must buy into at least 5 stats)
Prevents 15/15/15/8/8/8 min/maxing

4d6(b1)
In order. (Must have at least 2 stats at 15 or better before racials)
The Matt Colville Special

4d6(b1)
If overall ability modifier = <+4 may take standard array instead
If overall ability modifier = >+8 MUST take standard array instead

[Mongobear]

The boringness of Point Buy is a universal opinion for my group, we only use it if we are in a hurry for a one off game, or if somebody dies mid session and wants to reroll quickly.

All of the additional ideas for stat rolling is appreciated, but I think the issue the group has is the amount of variance and power spikes of an extreme outlier, such as Derpy or Hercules.

My intended solution is a way to ensure that EVERYONE in my group has the exact same potential, but still allow variation based on what they desire for stats. Which, despite our opinions of it, pretty much requires Point Buy or a Fixed Array.

Are there any Variants to Point Buy for 5e? Or alternative arrays other than 15 14 13 12 10 8? If that is a standard array for average everyday Heros, what would an "Elite Array" or an "Epic Array" for the Upper Eschelon of hero's look like? Would Standard Array +1-3 be a good medium for "good stats, but not Hercules"?

What about just increasing the PB budget to 32 or 35 points? Or sticking with 27, but starting at all 10s?

[KillingTime]

Standard Array is 15 14 13 12 10 8

If you want a hero array then add 1 or 2 (or a d2 for varience) to each stat.
If you want further varience you can add a d4 - but in this case consider dropping the base stat by at least 1 and probably 2. (the average on a d4 is 2.5)

At the end of the day, any purely random generation will give you gross outliers in the power level of the group.
Any pure array or point buy system will keep the power levels clustered, but be boring.

By combining the two systems you get a little varience while keeping power levels reasonably tightly constrained.

[Pelle]

The easiest is to decide on an acceptable power range and force reroll if the stats are outside it, like Belzique said.

In my current campaign, I calculated the "point buy" value from the rolled stats, and if the result was above a preset maximum or below a minimum value, the player would reroll their array. The only thing that needs to be done, is to get player buy in to what the max and min values should be. They are often happy to reroll bad arrays, but become unhappy if they have to reroll good stats. Players also like to set a high maximum value so that they can be lucky, but often it turns out that the table will become unhappy if there is a too large variation betweeen the players when only one player is lucky. And if the power range is set too narrow, you have to do a lot of rerolls...


For my next campaign I will try the following:
Roll 24d6, count #1s, #2s, ..., #6s, and add 8 to each value. That is the array, which ensures everyone will have an average of 12 in their stats, which is the same as for the Standard Array.

[BobZan]

If you want them with similar power, but luck based. Do like this:

Roll 40d6, count the repeated dice for each number and add 6 to the result. The average will be 12,67 with some nice possibilities. The cool factor is, if you roll 12 of one, you'll be rolling lower for others. This way you'll 'never' have Hercules with 3 18s on lv 1.

Lets say you rolled:
#1 5 times
#2 7 times
#3 8 times
#4 7 times
#5 10 times
#6 3 times

Add 6 to each pool and you'll have the stats: 11 13 14 13 16 9

[Unoriginal]

Are there any Variants to Point Buy for 5e? Or alternative arrays other than 15 14 13 12 10 8? If that is a standard array for average everyday Heros, what would an "Elite Array" or an "Epic Array" for the Upper Eschelon of hero's look like? Would Standard Array +1-3 be a good medium for "good stats, but not Hercules"?

What about just increasing the PB budget to 32 or 35 points? Or sticking with 27, but starting at all 10s?

The PHB stat arrays/27-Points Buy ARE the "Elite/Epic Array" for the upper echelon of heroes.

[Tanarii]

Just use the default array. Or make, like, 3-4 arrays using point buy and give the players a choice of them, if you don't want to see 15/15/15/8/8/8 and think your players will exclusively choose it. Although my experience with AL showed that's extremely unlikely.

On rolling vs array:
- I'm a fan of rolling in any campaign where death is likely, and you're going to weed out the weak, unlucky, and poorly played characters quickly.*
- I'm a fan of rolling if the PCs are just the latest chumps to risk life and limb for something something. Not, like, guaranteed to be super special.*
- I'm a fan of array in any single-party campaign where survival is basically guaranteed, barring gross incompetence, until end of the campaign.
- I'm a fan of point buy in any campaign that's official play.

*If both of these are true, I'm a fan of 3d6 in order.

[djreynolds]

Tell them to man up and roll 3d6 in order.

Yes, this is it. Just roll and play. Heck pick your race and class first, then roll 3d6 in order and keep it.... very fun

But also, I will as a DM roll a standard array for the table, and every player uses these stats

The standard array/point buy is just keeping it a level playing field.

[Vaz]

Only real men play DnD with a roll 2d6, burn 1 for each of their stats.

This forum is populated with absolute drongo's.

[Tanarii]

Yes, this is it. Just roll and play. Heck pick your race and class first, then roll 3d6 in order and keep it.... very fun

Fun in BECMI, where you expect your first 5-10 characters to eat it ignobly, and they're nothing special unless they somehow survive. Not so much in 5e.

(For the record that's what I meant by "if both of these are true" in my post above. ie you're playing in a super-old-school way, presumably with an old-school edition. Which is totally fun if you're cool with it.)

[the secret fire]

The boringness of Point Buy is a universal opinion for my group, we only use it if we are in a hurry for a one off game, or if somebody dies mid session and wants to reroll quickly.

All of the additional ideas for stat rolling is appreciated, but I think the issue the group has is the amount of variance and power spikes of an extreme outlier, such as Derpy or Hercules.

My intended solution is a way to ensure that EVERYONE in my group has the exact same potential, but still allow variation based on what they desire for stats. Which, despite our opinions of it, pretty much requires Point Buy or a Fixed Array.

Are there any Variants to Point Buy for 5e? Or alternative arrays other than 15 14 13 12 10 8? If that is a standard array for average everyday Heros, what would an "Elite Array" or an "Epic Array" for the Upper Eschelon of hero's look like? Would Standard Array +1-3 be a good medium for "good stats, but not Hercules"?

What about just increasing the PB budget to 32 or 35 points? Or sticking with 27, but starting at all 10s?

I use the following system at my table:

Each player chooses race first.

Stats are then generated using one of the following options (all before racial mods):
1) One stat at 18, the rest roll 4d6 drop lowest, in order (minimum 8)
2) Two stats at 16, the rest roll 4d6 drop lowest, in order (minimum 8)
3) Three stats at 14, the rest roll 4d6 drop lowest, in order (minimum 8)
4) Roll 4d6 drop lowest (minimum 8) seven times and take the top six, arrange to taste

Class is chosen after stat generation.

This generation method allows the players to play basically the character they want in terms of strong stats, but still leaves room for variance with the off-stats. The PCs with this system end up being well-suited to play their classes (whatever those are), but they may also have some unanticipated strengths and/or weaknesses which the players need to adapt to. These will almost always be non-primary stat variations, though, so they add more flavor than mechanical effect.

Anyway, this is the best way I've found to mix old and new-school stat generation in D&D. I quite like the way this plays at my table, but it is a matter of taste.

[Mjolnirbear]

The boringness of Point Buy is a universal opinion for my group, we only use it if we are in a hurry for a one off game, or if somebody dies mid session and wants to reroll quickly.

All of the additional ideas for stat rolling is appreciated, but I think the issue the group has is the amount of variance and power spikes of an extreme outlier, such as Derpy or Hercules.

My intended solution is a way to ensure that EVERYONE in my group has the exact same potential, but still allow variation based on what they desire for stats. Which, despite our opinions of it, pretty much requires Point Buy or a Fixed Array.

Are there any Variants to Point Buy for 5e? Or alternative arrays other than 15 14 13 12 10 8? If that is a standard array for average everyday Heros, what would an "Elite Array" or an "Epic Array" for the Upper Eschelon of hero's look like? Would Standard Array +1-3 be a good medium for "good stats, but not Hercules"?

What about just increasing the PB budget to 32 or 35 points? Or sticking with 27, but starting at all 10s?

You can change the point buy budget to whatever you want. I do 33 points plus a feat at first level (no variant humans) and instead of racial bonuses you get +2/+1 to stats of your choice (humans and kobolds get more and less stats, respectively)

It's a lot of power. In STK, I replaced all the goblins in the village and cave with gnolls. It was the perfect amount of challenge I wanted for them.

[djreynolds]

I think it would be fun to say, I'm playing a dexterous elven wizard and you roll odd stats that don't fit, like a 15/8/12/6/16/13

I don't how often I have rolled awesome stats, thought I was invincible, and died. And everyone else who rolled poorly... played smartly, played like the next bend around the corner is death and survived because they knew they couldn't survive if they ran in head strong like my character did (whom they buried), and they became a really awesome party because they really leaned on each other.

If everyone rolls really well, team work goes down the drain, and everyone is rolling every check, and they just disagree and go off on their own... because these high rolls make them feel invincible.

Poor rolls might actually force players to band together for safety and really think out decisions and tactics, because everything is dangerous. They develop awesome tactics and player skills, and really learn to use everything well. They just aren't fireballing and smiting everything. They can't, they have to manage resources well or they die.

[robbie374]

I use the following system at my table: This generation method allows the players to play basically the character they want in terms of strong stats, but still leaves room for variance with the off-stats. The PCs with this system end up being well-suited to play their classes (whatever those are), but they may also have some unanticipated strengths and/or weaknesses which the players need to adapt to. These will almost always be non-primary stat variations, though, so they add more flavor than mechanical effect. Anyway, this is the best way I've found to mix old and new-school stat generation in D&D. I quite like the way this plays at my table, but it is a matter of taste.

This is a great idea!

[Eric Diaz]

From Unearthed Arcana: Quick Characters

https://media.wizards.com/2016/downl...ck_PCs_SFG.PDF

d6 Score Array
1 18, 14, 12, 8, 8, 6
2 16, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8
3 16, 16, 12, 10, 8, 8
4 16, 12, 12, 12, 10, 8
5 14, 14, 12, 12, 12, 12
6 14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10

If you want something different, try my "yin yang" method, although it doesn't work as well for 5e (it is intended for OSR, AD&D, my Dark Fantasy Basic games, etc).

http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com...method-of.html

Here is how I described it in Dark Fantasy Basic (results are meant to be a little better than 3d6):

1. Generate your six ability scores using the yin-yang
method: roll 3d6 for your Strength and subtract that
value from 21 to find out your Intelligence (for example,
if your Strength is 15, your Intelligence is 6). Do the same
for Wisdom and Dexterity, and then Constitution and
Charisma.
2. Change your highest ability score to 17 (if lower than 17)
OR one ability score of your choice to 8. Then swap abilities
around if you wish, provided no more than half your abilities
are changed.

[danpit2991]

my prefered methods in order are


roll 4D6 7times drop lowest

4D6 drop lowest

2d6 plus 6

3d6 7 times drop lowest

point buy/standard


3d6 straight

[Unoriginal]

Do people who think point buy is boring also roll for their health at each level?

[ad_hoc]

Just use the default array.

Yeah, this sounds like it is the answer. The game play in 5e is in the game itself, not in character creation.

If you want randomness then any method you come up with should have the stats done in order. Otherwise, why go random at all?

Cards rather than dice are a great way to constrain the numbers. Everyone ends up with the same sum, some will be better than others as their highest stat will be higher, but that will be fairly rare.

Take cards 2 through 6 from a playing card deck. Remove a 2 and a 6. Shuffle and deal out 6 piles of 3 cards in order. If someone gets a Con below 12 allow them to switch it with one other stat.