Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXV

[gkathellar]

Bolding mine.

You can only get one of these things - the bat'leth is a terrible weapon. As for being usable defensively, so are the vast majority of melee weapons, almost all of them much more so than the bat'leth. This isn't a thread for specific mechanics, but if those get a +0 AC bonus and simulating the AC benefit is helpful the bat'leth should probably get a penalty.

The bat'leth was designed by a writer who had done "Tai Chi" and allegedly based it off of the movements of "Tai Chi." Maybe you already got this from the scare quotes, but as someone who's studied taiji with a lineage holder, and who has done taiji weapons work, I find this a teensy bit completely infuriating.

It's an absolutely godawful idea for a weapon and there is no good way to use it.

[Knaight]

The bat'leth was designed by a writer who had done "Tai Chi" and allegedly based it off of the movements of "Tai Chi." Maybe you already got this from the scare quotes, but as someone who's studied taiji with a lineage holder, and who has done taiji weapons work, I find this a teensy bit completely infuriating.

So what I'm hearing is that if you have take someone who doesn't really know Tai Chi, have them practice Tai Chi movements that definitely aren't strikes, and then just stick one stick between both of their hands and sticking slightly outward you basically get the bat'leth fighting style. That sounds about right to me.

Also, if I'm being as fair as I can to the weapon I will say that it comes out looking good compared to brass knuckles, at least if you completely ignore displayed usage. Sure, it's far worse than a sword (or even a decent knife), and the idea of bat'leth against spear is just hilarious, but at least it edges out something that definitely isn't a weapon of war or even a particularly good option for low intensity modern street fights.

[Max_Killjoy]

It's an example of what happens when you let artists design a weapon, under the premise that it must be different from weapons humans used and "look cool" -- while ignoring what makes a weapon work, how a humanoid body works, how weapons are actually used... and that if you have a melee weapon no human culture ever used, there's probably a lot of good reasons.

[snowblizz]

Shadiversity has a lot of intelligent things to say about the bathlet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsElSDXPgSA

Spoiler, not a lot of good things though.

[Lapak]

It's an example of what happens when you let artists design a weapon, under the premise that it must be different from weapons humans used and "look cool" -- while ignoring what makes a weapon work, how a humanoid body works, how weapons are actually used... and that if you have a melee weapon no human culture ever used, there's probably a lot of good reasons.

You know, that makes me wonder: is there a conceivable body configuration that would make it a good idea? Like, forget how Star Trek has mostly humanoid aliens - is there a theoretical arrangement of body mechanics that would make it a winner? I'm thinking about how it looks a bit like an ant's mandibles - would it make any more sense for a species, say, where the only gripping appendages are flush with the body rather than having long arms?

[VoxRationis]

I feel like a creature with short gripping appendages would need reach even more when it comes to melee weapons. Perhaps something with tentacles, something whose limbs aren't capable of holding a guard stance, but could exert a lot of whipping force on the weapon with the grips as a fulcrum?

[gkathellar]

I'm not sure a creature with short limbs would have a reason to use handheld weapons at all, as opposed to just strapping a bunch of blades and spikes to themselves. Gripping appendages in general are pretty important and fragile, so if you're not actually getting a combat advantage out of using them, isn't it better not to?

The bat'leth is a random mashup of better things, and just physically, it's hard to imagine anything it would do well. You could rotate it around itself like a staff, but without any of the versatility or ability to move the axis of rotation on the spot that a staff manages. You could swing it with two hands like a sword, but it'd be slow and awkward because the entire thing is a counterweight to itself. You could sort of thrust with it, but all of those extra points and hooks aren't doing that any good, so it's just a big dumb sharp thing. And ... that's it. It's a Deer Horn Knife (itself already one of those gimmicky martial arts weapons of debatable usefulness), but huge and bulky and with three grips for some reason. It's a big silly anime sword with no reach and no structural advantages, and I'm pretty sure you could outfight someone using it with a rolled-up magazine. Klingons might as well run around with a giant pair of gardening shears.

[Brother Oni]

Sorry to interrupt this bashing of Star Trek weaponry, but it's page 50.

New thread is up here.

[Deepbluediver]

The bat'leth is a random mashup of better things, and just physically, it's hard to imagine anything it would do well.

I'm not sure how the bat'leth is described in-universe (was never a really Trekkie-fan, sorry), but is it possible that it exists BECAUSE it's such an awkward weapon?

To explain, look at something like the German dueling shield: https://www.freelanceacademypress.co...ingshield.aspx
It's a giant 2-handed shield with spikes and hooks and a big ridge down the center, and I'm pretty sure at least one of the webpages I read about it once said that it was used in judicial trial-by-combat because no one would ever practice enough with something like this to really get good, which would put the combatants on more even footing. So assuming that's true (and that's a big "if"), then maybe the bat'leth is in a similar vein and it's a weapon specifically designed to be more about show and less about lethality?

Also, here are some videos showing dueling shields in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnQbj8c5OLs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9VG4ClQcJk
both of them start out with a shield-and-weapon combo and the switch to two-handed shield use

[Knaight]

I'm not sure how the bat'leth is described in-universe (was never a really Trekkie-fan, sorry), but is it possible that it exists BECAUSE it's such an awkward weapon?

To explain, look at something like the German dueling shield: https://www.freelanceacademypress.co...ingshield.aspx
It's a giant 2-handed shield with spikes and hooks and a big ridge down the center, and I'm pretty sure at least one of the webpages I read about it once said that it was used in judicial trial-by-combat because no one would ever practice enough with something like this to really get good, which would put the combatants on more even footing. So assuming that's true (and that's a big "if"), then maybe the bat'leth is in a similar vein and it's a weapon specifically designed to be more about show and less about lethality?

Also, here are some videos showing dueling shields in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnQbj8c5OLs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9VG4ClQcJk
both of them start out with a shield-and-weapon combo and the switch to two-handed shield use

It would make sense for certain forms of ritualized combat (e.g. judicial duels) where everyone is using one or otherwise hampered - though this is admittedly more because you can justify basically anything for this context. It's portrayed as a weapon of war though, and an effective one at that, which is where it doesn't fit so well.