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    Default [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    Good day! Pleased to be appearing on the forums after lurking for... quite a while.

    In a couple of weeks I'm running a campaign focused around the agents of a god of artists, and I wanted to design a domain for that god's clerics (since Knowledge, Light, and Forge all seemed a little off). My idea for the theme was a cleric focused around illusions.

    So here's what I currently have.

    DIVINE DOMAIN: ART

    Domain Spells
    1st level: color spray, silent image
    2nd level: locate object, moonbeam
    3rd level: glyph of warding, hypnotic image
    4th level: Leomund's secret chest, stone shape
    5th level: animate objects, legend lore

    Features
    Bonus Proficiencies (1st). You gain proficiency with the History skill and one type of artisan's tools, and you may double your proficiency bonus on any ability check you make with those proficiencies.
    Bonus Cantrip (1st). You learn one of the following cantrips, if you don't know it already: dancing lights, light, mending, minor illusion. It counts as a cleric cantrip for you, even if it does not appear on the cleric list.
    Divine Illusionist (1st). You can prepare illusion spells from the wizard spell list. These spells count as cleric spells for you. You can only prepare a number of illusion spells in this way equal to half your cleric level (rounded up), and they do count against your prepared spells for that day.
    Channel Divinity: Curator's Blessing (2nd). As a one-hour ritual, you touch the remains of a damaged or destroyed man-made non-magical object or structure that fits in a ten-foot cube. The target is made whole, restoring it to its original form. Fading or aging-related damage can be reversed, breaks can be mended, vandalism can be reversed, and even burned material can be reconstituted (as long as more than 50% of the ashes/remains can be gathered). Only a disintegrate spell or similar magic foils this ability. When you reach 8th level, the size of structure you can restore becomes a 30 foot cube.
    Alternatively, you perform this ritual on an undamaged target and ward it indefinitely against decay and damage. It can only be damaged or destroyed by the intentional action of a sentient creature; thus, aging, the ravages of time, and natural disasters do not harm it. This effect is revealed by detect magic as an abjuration, and can be removed by dispel magic or similar spells.
    Subjectivity (6th). When you cast an illusion spell that does not target the senses of a particular creature (such as silent image, invisibility, or silence, but not phantasmal force, you can choose any number of creatures you can see within 150 feet (generalizations such as "all the guards" are acceptable). Either these creatures are not affected by the illusion, and all others are; or these creatures are affected by the illusion, and no others are.
    OR... (decision to be made)
    Art Step (6th level). As an action, you and up to five other non-hostile creatures can step into a work of art that you touch. You and your companions remain there for 10 minutes while you maintain concentration; you can also use an action to exit early. For the duration, you and your companions appear as figures inside of the work (including appearing as additional figures in a statuary), and you are considered petrified, but you retain all of your senses and can speak. If the work takes damage while you are inside of it, you are expelled into the nearest unoccupied space and take 6d6 force damage.
    Alternately, you can attempt to seize one creature and force it into a work of art against its will. It makes a Charisma saving throw contested by your spell attack roll, and on a failure, it is subjected to the conditions described above for 1 minute while you maintain concentration, except that it cannot speak. It can repeat the saving throw against your spell save DC on each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success; it also exits if the work is damaged, as described above.
    Potent Spellcasting (8th). You can add your Wisdom modifier to your damage from cleric cantrips.
    Creator of Worlds (17th). You can channel the power of creation wielded by your god and create a small world of your own. As an action, you cast the demiplane spell, creating a demiplane whose appearance and contents you specify (more specific on the contents?). Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you complete a long rest.

    ************************

    Notes on rationale:
    • Spells: Most of these are things I imagined an art cleric being able to do - e.g. create illusions, leave magical marks on things, find lost artwork, hide their work in a secret chest, sculpt stone, etc. I included Moonbeam as a damage option partly because of its effect on shapeshifters, and partly because radiant damage (especially soft moonlight) is one of the few kinds of damage I would be comfortable letting a cleric cast in a museum, the other being psychic. (This is also why I dismissed the Light domain. Would you want that much fire if you were a cleric of old dusty things?)
    • The proficiencies: These proficiencies are more for flavor. Seems like an artist cleric should be able to do art, and know things about art.
    • Cantrip: I couldn't pick between these four, so I decided to offer the player the option.
    • Divine Illusionist: There are a lot of illusions out there, and though I decided that two or three should really be domain spells (minor illusion, silent image, hypnotic pattern), I wanted to leave others at the cleric's disposal if they needed them.
    • Channel Divinity: A cleric of art should both create and care for the creations of others. I thought granting a souped-up mending wrapped up with a preservation ability reflected that nicely.
    • Subjectivity: I thought of this after reading some pieces of Erfworld involving Jack. It's a neat ability, and I think it fits - not everyone sees an artist's creations the same way.
    • Art Step: Thanks to Twizzly513 for this idea.
    • Potent Spellcasting: It's this or Divine Strike, and this doesn't really seem like a weapons domain to me.
    • Creator of Worlds: The god of artists in my world is also the god of creation, and this is a way I'd already written his servants being able to channel his power in stories outside of my D&D campaigns.


    So, my big questions:
    • Game Balance: Is this reasonably in line with the other existing cleric domains? (Especially concerned now about the Channel Divinity and the Capstone.)
    • Flavor: Does this sound like a good toolkit for a cleric of an artist-god, in your own opinion?
    • Alternative: As an alternative to the Channel Divinity option, I thought about giving the cleric a 1st-level feature that allows him to prepare a certain number of wizard illusions as part of his spell list for the day (they would count against his total level+Wis). I was concerned about balancing this, though. Does this sound reasonable? (I wound up choosing this alternative.)


    And of course any other feedback is welcome.

    Thanks in advance!

    Aureus

    Spoiler: Edit Log
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    1/17: Removed martial weapon proficiency. Added Divine Illusionist at first level, and replaced Channel Divinity: Divine Illusion with Channel Divinity: Curator's Blessing. Replaced Malleable Illusion with Subjectivity. Added Capstone.
    1/18: Moved Curator's Blessing improvement to 8th level.
    1/21: Edited wording of Divine Illusionist and Subjectivity. Added Art Step.
    Last edited by AureusFulgens; 2018-01-21 at 08:51 PM.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    Ooh, an art domain. I recently designed my own, so maybe I'll have some alright advice for this? Hopefully?

    Domain Spells
    All seems right, here.

    Bonus Proficiencies
    Here's one of my small problems with this domain; you gave it martial weapons. Later on you say that it makes full Dexterity a viable option, but it doesn't really fit at all, and isn't even that handy. It already gets roughly half of what Knowledge domain gets, and then it also gets a cantrip.

    Quote Originally Posted by AureusFulgens View Post
    Potent Spellcasting: It's this or Divine Strike, and this doesn't really seem like a weapons domain to me.
    Also, you say this later on, but yet you gave it martial weapon proficiency?

    Divine Illusion
    Does this cost a spell slot, still? If not, it might have some serious balancing issues (hello illusory dragon 3 times per short rest). If so, I think it might be fine.

    Malleable Illusion
    While not inherently anything wrong with it, it feels... cheap, to just nab a feature from a different subclass. It's fine, here, but I would personally implore you to try and think of something unique.

    Potent Spellcasting
    It fits.

    Now, for your questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by AureusFulgens View Post
    Game Balance: Is this reasonably in line with the other existing cleric domains?
    It's certainly close. The Channel Divinity portion at the moment is what makes it or breaks it, depending on if it costs a slot or not (it should still).

    Quote Originally Posted by AureusFulgens View Post
    Flavor: Does this sound like a good toolkit for a cleric of an artist-god, in your own opinion?
    Kind of? It feels more trickster-y than artsy, but it is hard to make mechanics for art. I'll say it's good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by AureusFulgens View Post
    Alternative: As an alternative to the Channel Divinity option, I thought about giving the cleric a 1st-level feature that allows him to prepare a certain number of wizard illusions as part of his spell list for the day (they would count against his total level+Wis). I was concerned about balancing this, though. Does this sound reasonable?
    Debatable. Divine Soul sorcerer does a similar thing, but it doesn't prepare spells and has less it can have overall, however this is only one school of spells versus an entire class list. I'd say "yes", and if you go this route, I'd be interested to see the new Channel Divinity.

    Quote Originally Posted by AureusFulgens View Post
    Capstone: Do I need to make one even if I don't expect the party to reach that level?
    I'd personally say you should do one, anyways. Other people might use this, your players may want to revisit this domain later if the party hits higher levels, other similar reasons.

    Hope I helped!

    EDIT: Small grammar mess-ups.
    Last edited by Blackbando; 2018-01-17 at 12:54 PM.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    Thanks for the response! Let's see what I can do. I'll edit these into my original post.

    Proficiencies. I'm also noticing the contradiction with the weapon proficiency and Potent Spellcasting, so I can just remove the weapons. Not really necessary.

    Divine Illusion. Good point. If I keep this, it'll definitely use up a spell slot. At that point, it really might make sense to just let the cleric prepare a few wizard illusions - partly because at higher levels having access to EVERY ILLUSION PERIOD when you use your channel divinity might be a little overwhelming and/or unbalanced.

    That calls for a New Channel Divinity: Curator's Blessing. As a one-hour ritual, you touch the remains of a damaged or destroyed man-made non-magical object or structure that fits in a ten-foot cube. The target is made whole, restoring it to its original form. Fading or aging-related damage can be reversed, breaks can be mended, vandalism can be reversed, and even burned material can be reconstituted (as long as more than 50% of the ashes can be gathered). Only a disintegrate spell or similar magic foils this ability. When you reach 10th level, the size of structure you can restore becomes a 30 foot cube.
    Alternatively, you perform this ritual on such a target and ward it indefinitely against decay and damage. It can only be damaged or destroyed by the intentional action of a sentient creature; thus, aging, the ravages of time, and natural disasters do not harm it. This effect can be removed by dispel magic or similar spells.

    Rationale: This kind of establishes an aspect of the Art Cleric's role as, not just a creator, but a protector of creations. It's not a combat-heavy ability, but has a lot of potential utility - like a souped-up mending, of sorts. The second option is mostly for flavor; I like the idea of one of these guys working at a museum as a conservationist.

    Sixth Level. There's a sort of unfortunate irony to creating a domain for artists and creativity and whatnot and then borrowing a feature from another subclass verbatim. As far as replacing it, if I'm keeping the illusion theme, I like the idea of an artist being able to make his creations look different to different people. It seems thematic, something about subjectivity. Maybe allow him to choose specific creatures to be affected/not affected by his illusions? (Two separate illusory effects for different groups of viewers might be neat, but also difficult to manage, and I can't decide whether it would be prone to abuse or largely useless.)

    Capstone. From the stories I've placed in this setting, I'm tempted to give artist clerics some ability based on the demiplane spell: the artist-god Gosiliot is the god of creation, and his most favored servants share some of his power to create worlds.

    Now, as far as the flavor/theme. I think my idea of making the Art Cleric an illusionist is probably on account of having recently been reading the Stormlight Archive, since the Lightweavers are the artists among the Knights Radiant and wield illusions. The other theming ideas I have would be granting abilities of change or transmutation (the other power of the Lightweavers), inflicting madness (artists are stereotypically insane, and the god of artists in my setting is at the very least a bit loopy), or preservation (which I have drawn on a bit for the new Channel Divinity).

    Do you have any thoughts on what would make a cleric feel like an Art Cleric? You mentioned you'd attempted this yourself at some point?

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    I like the new Channel Divinity, and the idea for the capstone is pretty good, I'd say.

    However, how I handled my Art Domain? I focused it on charming and captivating people.

    Art tends to speak to the soul, people are drawn to art that is high-quality, so I had based my domain on the beauty of art, and having others be charmed by said beauty.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    Domain Spells
    Seems balanced. A good range of utility and combat while still keeping to the art theme (originally thought this might be difficult). Moonbeam seems like an odd man out here, I might use blur, mirror image, or see invisibility to play off of the sight theme.

    Bonus Proficiencies
    I was surprised to see History here. It makes thematic sense, although I might restrict it to History checks related to art pieces. It's not like History is a huge skill though, so if you like it, then it most likely won't make a big deal.

    Bonus Cantrip
    Adds to the theme, balanced. Good choice of a feature!

    Divine Illusionist
    An interesting feature you don't see anywhere else. As is, I like the feature and it adds lots of versatility (many different kinds of illusion spells keeps this impactful at higher levels), although it seems a little clunky in wording alone. I might change it to something like: Beginning at 1st level, you can prepare illusion spells from the wizard spell list. These spells count as cleric spells for you. You can only prepare a number of illusion spells in this way equal to half your cleric level (rounded up). You might also add in something here that allows the player to magically alter (side note: maybe even enter if applicable!) a painting or other art work, like making someone in it have a different expression (Mona Lisa suddenly is very cross with you). Food for thought.

    Channel Divinity: Curator's Blessing
    I'm such a fan of this! This is a great feature that could see use in a lot of exploration, and it's very thorough without being too long or wordy. I can't see any obvious flaws here. If I had to pick one small thing, I would advise you against increasing subclass features at a level that nothing says to look at subclass features. The closest to 10th is the 8th level improvement, so I'd personally bump it to there, since it doesn't have a huge balance issue there.

    Subjectivity
    At first glance, I struggle to see the use of this. Most of the time, you simply want illusions to affect all enemies, instead of just some. Alternatively, you could alter the feature to make yourself invisible to a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier for 1 minute, usable once per short rest, and use the same name. It would give some added combat use along with out of combat utility while adding to the theme.

    Potent Spellcasting
    Between this and Divine Strike, this was the right choice.

    Creator of Worlds
    Interesting feature, I like it. The title encompasses it. Worthy to be a capstone.

    As for your questions:
    Game Balance: I think that it doesn't get many combat abilities, but it makes up for it by being very useful outside of combat. I'd play this subclass and allow my players to use it without being worried about them being too far ahead or behind. The 6th level feature feels very lackluster. Besides that bump, this is reasonably in line with other classes. The Channel Divinity is useful but not overpowered in any sense, and the capstone allows for creativity without being too much or too little.
    Flavor: Absolutely! It feels original and well-done!

    Overall, this is a great subclass, good work!

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando
    I like the new Channel Divinity, and the idea for the capstone is pretty good, I'd say.

    However, how I handled my Art Domain? I focused it on charming and captivating people.

    Art tends to speak to the soul, people are drawn to art that is high-quality, so I had based my domain on the beauty of art, and having others be charmed by said beauty.
    Interesting. I more assigned that role to the god of music in my setting, but it does fit either one.

    Glad that those options worked out, thanks for all the feedback!

    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzly513
    Domain Spells
    Seems balanced. A good range of utility and combat while still keeping to the art theme (originally thought this might be difficult). Moonbeam seems like an odd man out here, I might use blur, mirror image, or see invisibility to play off of the sight theme.
    First of all, thanks for the response!

    My rationale was that it was one of the few damaging spells that I would be comfortable casting in a museum (soft white moonlight doesn't seem likely to damage anything I care about), plus I liked the effect on shapeshifters - revealing their true form. Seemed to fit.

    My concern about blur and mirror image is that the cleric already has the ability to prepare illusions - silent image and hypnotic pattern were thematic enough that I felt like they should be domain spells, but others I was less attached to - they could take them or leave them with the Divine Illusionist ability as they choose. I'd consider see invisibility, though. Or, heck, if I want to go Elemental Evil, there's skywrite (which is a conjuration). I'll mull this one over a bit, about to be busy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzly513
    Divine Illusionist
    An interesting feature you don't see anywhere else. As is, I like the feature and it adds lots of versatility (many different kinds of illusion spells keeps this impactful at higher levels), although it seems a little clunky in wording alone. I might change it to something like: Beginning at 1st level, you can prepare illusion spells from the wizard spell list. These spells count as cleric spells for you. You can only prepare a number of illusion spells in this way equal to half your cleric level (rounded up). You might also add in something here that allows the player to magically alter (side note: maybe even enter if applicable!) a painting or other art work, like making someone in it have a different expression (Mona Lisa suddenly is very cross with you). Food for thought.
    I like your wording here, mind if I steal it? And that is an ability I now really want my clerics to have. I guess that would be an alteration to the wording of this ability to let a cleric casting an illusion spell (like silent image or major image) to alter the appearance of a work of art? Or a separate ability? The bit about entering a work of art sounds like an option for the 17th level feature to me - a variant on the demiplane ability. I'll have to think about how to add that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzly513
    Subjectivity
    At first glance, I struggle to see the use of this. Most of the time, you simply want illusions to affect all enemies, instead of just some. Alternatively, you could alter the feature to make yourself invisible to a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier for 1 minute, usable once per short rest, and use the same name. It would give some added combat use along with out of combat utility while adding to the theme.
    I could think of a few uses for it - usually by separating enemies and allies. Use an illusion to create signals or messages only your party can see, make yourself invisible to the guards but not your allies (or to your rival who's looking for you in a crowd but not everyone else), apply an offensive illusion like fear to only your enemies if your allies are in the way, use silence to disable enemy spellcasters but not your own... At the very least it may need some work on the wording to enable some of those uses, and some might just plain not work (the silence one is the one I'm most skeptical of).

    EDIT: I did move the Curator's Blessing improvement to level 8. Conveniently, that brings it within reach of my players (who I'm expecting will peak at level 8-9).
    Last edited by AureusFulgens; 2018-01-18 at 07:39 PM.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    Quote Originally Posted by AureusFulgens View Post
    First of all, thanks for the response!
    Of course, glad to help!

    My rationale was that it was one of the few damaging spells that I would be comfortable casting in a museum (soft white moonlight doesn't seem likely to damage anything I care about), plus I liked the effect on shapeshifters - revealing their true form. Seemed to fit.

    My concern about blur and mirror image is that the cleric already has the ability to prepare illusions - silent image and hypnotic pattern were thematic enough that I felt like they should be domain spells, but others I was less attached to - they could take them or leave them with the Divine Illusionist ability as they choose. I'd consider see invisibility, though. Or, heck, if I want to go Elemental Evil, there's skywrite (which is a conjuration). I'll mull this one over a bit, about to be busy.
    That's true, I hadn't thought of the museum bit, along with the revealing of shapeshifters. It's a good spell, and now that I see the thematics, I agree that it is a good choice.

    I like your wording here, mind if I steal it? And that is an ability I now really want my clerics to have. I guess that would be an alteration to the wording of this ability to let a cleric casting an illusion spell (like silent image or major image) to alter the appearance of a work of art? Or a separate ability? The bit about entering a work of art sounds like an option for the 17th level feature to me - a variant on the demiplane ability. I'll have to think about how to add that.
    Yes, feel free For some reason I have knack for the way 5e's books talk. The art-changing ability could trigger on the casting of an illusion spell of 1st level or higher, or it could simply cost a spell slot. I agree that stepping into art would probably be at higher levels. I only mentioned it there because that's what triggered the thought.


    I could think of a few uses for it - usually by separating enemies and allies. Use an illusion to create signals or messages only your party can see, make yourself invisible to the guards but not your allies (or to your rival who's looking for you in a crowd but not everyone else), apply an offensive illusion like fear to only your enemies if your allies are in the way, use silence to disable enemy spellcasters but not your own... At the very least it may need some work on the wording to enable some of those uses, and some might just plain not work (the silence one is the one I'm most skeptical of).
    Ah, yes. I thought I was missing something Knowing this, the ability is better than I thought. However, it still feels a tiny bit lackluster, mostly because of the lack of real combat boosts at most levels (level 8 gives Wis to cantrip damage, and wizard's illusion spells are nice). This is alright, since the cleric is clearly meant to exceed outside of combat in the first place, but I would still probably reword it like you said to make more options clear, and possibly add some additional combat usage. (Perhaps open it up to more spells, or limited use outside of illusion spells? Not sure) You could have the stepping into paintings ability here in addition to this to add to this level's benefits. Maybe a weak version, like you can step into painting, but you can't move and it only lasts for 1 minute with concentration. If the painting is damaged, you are automatically expelled into the nearest available space and take X force damage. You can leave early as an action only. It could be boosted with restrictions taken off at higher levels. You could also make it an additional Channel Divinity option. It seems like it wouldn't be overpowered for the level, especially with the action to leave. I'd suggest doing either the painting-step or the adding spell uses, but not both. Otherwise, it would probably be a little much for this one level.

    EDIT: I did move the Curator's Blessing improvement to level 8. Conveniently, that brings it within reach of my players (who I'm expecting will peak at level 8-9).
    Sounds like a good improvement then!

    EDIT: I wanted to make sure you know everything I say is 100% an idea, and you can ignore it and I won't be offended. Having made plenty of homebrew, I know how sometimes you just dislike an idea, so don't feel bad for saying you don't!
    Last edited by Twizzly513; 2018-01-18 at 09:30 PM.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzly513
    I wanted to make sure you know everything I say is 100% an idea, and you can ignore it and I won't be offended. Having made plenty of homebrew, I know how sometimes you just dislike an idea, so don't feel bad for saying you don't!
    Of course! I still appreciate the feedback, it really helps me refine the homebrew.

    As another note, I'm still thinking about the modify-art thing you mentioned (which I still seriously want the cleric to be able to do). My current line of thought: does silent image/major image already have the necessary machinery to achieve this? I kind of feel like it does (just cast the illusion of what you want over the existing work). In that case, would I add text to point this ability out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzly513
    Ah, yes. I thought I was missing something Knowing this, the ability is better than I thought. However, it still feels a tiny bit lackluster, mostly because of the lack of real combat boosts at most levels (level 8 gives Wis to cantrip damage, and wizard's illusion spells are nice). This is alright, since the cleric is clearly meant to exceed outside of combat in the first place, but I would still probably reword it like you said to make more options clear, and possibly add some additional combat usage. (Perhaps open it up to more spells, or limited use outside of illusion spells? Not sure)
    Mechanics-wise, I think I'm comfortable with the low level of combat ability - especially given a comparison with the standard Knowledge domain, which similarly only gains combat options from a few domain spells (command, suggestion, confusion) and Potent Spellcasting. The extra illusion spells should grant ample other options. Still, I'll try to reword the Subjectivity option to make its other uses clearer (and to make sure they work, which I remain uncertain of - I haven't had a lot of time to think about this since my last post).

    EDIT: I gave examples of spells that work with this ability, e.g. silent image, invisibility, silence.

    You could have the stepping into paintings ability here in addition to this to add to this level's benefits. Maybe a weak version, like you can step into painting, but you can't move and it only lasts for 1 minute with concentration. If the painting is damaged, you are automatically expelled into the nearest available space and take X force damage. You can leave early as an action only. It could be boosted with restrictions taken off at higher levels. You could also make it an additional Channel Divinity option. It seems like it wouldn't be overpowered for the level, especially with the action to leave. I'd suggest doing either the painting-step or the adding spell uses, but not both. Otherwise, it would probably be a little much for this one level.
    This might be a nice idea, especially since the full demiplane ability is well outside of my party's expected level range. My party will be creating characters soon, so I'm thinking I'll also seek the opinion of any player who wants to take this option. (If they do. I think my prospective cleric is more thinking of being a healer. In that case, an NPC might wield this domain.)

    So the wording would probably sound something like:

    Art Step (6th level). As an action, you and up to five other non-hostile creatures can step into a work of art that you touch. You and your companions remain there for 10 minutes while you maintain concentration; you can also use an action to exit early. For the duration, you and your companions appear as figures inside of the work (including appearing as additional figures in a statuary), and you are considered petrified, but you retain all of your senses and can speak. If the work takes damage while you are inside of it, you are expelled into the nearest unoccupied space and take 2d6 force damage.
    Alternately, you can attempt to seize one creature and force it into a work of art against its will. It makes a Charisma saving throw, and on a failure, it is subjected to the conditions described above for 10 minutes while you maintain concentration, except that it cannot speak and exits only when the effect ends, it is expelled by damage, or you touch the work to release it (no action required).

    My current thoughts on that:
    • This would of course replace Subjectivity.
    • The offensive version seemed too much fun to pass up. Is it too much?
    • The numbers are all arbitrary; I thought that being able to hide in the work of art for a longer time might be useful. The 2d6 force damage was also arbitrary. Should it be more? (I notice that meld into stone uses 6d6.)
    • I'm up in the air about concentration. Would it be a bad idea for the cleric to be able to keep concentration on a spell from inside? (Particularly on an illusion.)
    • It could also improve to a full addition to Creator of Worlds later on, once they gain that ability.
    Last edited by AureusFulgens; 2018-01-21 at 02:12 PM.

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    Default Re: [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    Quote Originally Posted by AureusFulgens View Post
    Mechanics-wise, I think I'm comfortable with the low level of combat ability - especially given a comparison with the standard Knowledge domain, which similarly only gains combat options from a few domain spells (command, suggestion, confusion) and Potent Spellcasting. The extra illusion spells should grant ample other options. Still, I'll try to reword the Subjectivity option to make its other uses clearer (and to make sure they work, which I remain uncertain of - I haven't had a lot of time to think about this since my last post).

    EDIT: I gave examples of spells that work with this ability, e.g. silent image, invisibility, silence.
    Fair point. It fits the art cleric theme.

    This might be a nice idea, especially since the full demiplane ability is well outside of my party's expected level range. My party will be creating characters soon, so I'm thinking I'll also seek the opinion of any player who wants to take this option. (If they do. I think my prospective cleric is more thinking of being a healer. In that case, an NPC might wield this domain.)

    So the wording would probably sound something like:

    Art Step (6th level). As an action, you and up to five other non-hostile creatures can step into a work of art that you touch. You and your companions remain there for 10 minutes while you maintain concentration; you can also use an action to exit early. For the duration, you and your companions appear as figures inside of the work (including appearing as additional figures in a statuary), and you are considered petrified, but you retain all of your senses and can speak. If the work takes damage while you are inside of it, you are expelled into the nearest unoccupied space and take 2d6 force damage.
    Alternately, you can attempt to seize one creature and force it into a work of art against its will. It makes a Charisma saving throw, and on a failure, it is subjected to the conditions described above for 10 minutes while you maintain concentration, except that it cannot speak and exits only when the effect ends, it is expelled by damage, or you touch the work to release it (no action required).

    My current thoughts on that:
    • This would of course replace Subjectivity.
    • The offensive version seemed too much fun to pass up. Is it too much?
    • The numbers are all arbitrary; I thought that being able to hide in the work of art for a longer time might be useful. The 2d6 force damage was also arbitrary. Should it be more? (I notice that meld into stone uses 6d6.)
    • I'm up in the air about concentration. Would it be a bad idea for the cleric to be able to keep concentration on a spell from inside? (Particularly on an illusion.)
    • It could also improve to a full addition to Creator of Worlds later on, once they gain that ability.
    I like the Art Step! Putting other creatures in the art is a nice touch, I hadn't thought of that. You kept it useful but not overpowered.

    • Makes sense
    • It's pretty well balanced. Given that you can't actually deal damage to the creature without expelling it, it's not a combat-ender in any way. It'll allow for the party to prepare a bit more. I see two main problems, one of them is more nitpicky than the other. The nitpicky one: I problem wouldn't use a Charisma save to trigger the ability. I might use a Charisma check contested by the cleric's Wisdom check, since you're trying to put someone in the art similar to a grapple or a shove. The other problem I see is that it lasts for 10 full minutes, which gives the party a lot of preparation time. I'm sure you understand how a party might abuse that kind of time. I might make it so that the creature can use its action every round to try and break free by attempting the Charisma vs. Wisdom contest again, ending the effect on a successful contest. This way, it's a little more unpredictable, so the party won't try and smash the art with a boulder or something, and they'll get a couple rounds to prepare. This seems fine to me because the party will either try to do something small or big during this time, and that will only take a few rounds or a lot longer. This keeps them down to a couple rounds without making them all comfortable thinking they've got a while before the foe gets to move anyways.
    • They're good numbers for being arbitrary. 10 minutes is an acceptable time; remember that for the most part nobody will want to be in there for that long most of the time anyways. 2d6 is pretty low, I'd set it higher. Meld into stone is available at level 5, and this ability comes at level 6, so we know the damage isn't too much. Modeling it off of a spell isn't a bad idea, and also adds some risk to using the ability, which, even if it doesn't come into play, makes for more interesting decision making.
    • It probably won't be a huge deal either way. I probably wouldn't allow it, only because it might cause weird rules conflicts that I cannot foresee.
    • That would be a nice benefit to add at a capstone.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzly513 View Post
    It's pretty well balanced. Given that you can't actually deal damage to the creature without expelling it, it's not a combat-ender in any way. It'll allow for the party to prepare a bit more. I see two main problems, one of them is more nitpicky than the other. The nitpicky one: I problem wouldn't use a Charisma save to trigger the ability. I might use a Charisma check contested by the cleric's Wisdom check, since you're trying to put someone in the art similar to a grapple or a shove. The other problem I see is that it lasts for 10 full minutes, which gives the party a lot of preparation time. I'm sure you understand how a party might abuse that kind of time. I might make it so that the creature can use its action every round to try and break free by attempting the Charisma vs. Wisdom contest again, ending the effect on a successful contest. This way, it's a little more unpredictable, so the party won't try and smash the art with a boulder or something, and they'll get a couple rounds to prepare. This seems fine to me because the party will either try to do something small or big during this time, and that will only take a few rounds or a lot longer. This keeps them down to a couple rounds without making them all comfortable thinking they've got a while before the foe gets to move anyways.
    That's a good point. I'll probably knock the time for the offensive ability down to 1 minute and allow the additional saves. I've particularly got hold person in mind, which is a decent comparison in terms of how similar effects work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzly513 View Post
    They're good numbers for being arbitrary. 10 minutes is an acceptable time; remember that for the most part nobody will want to be in there for that long most of the time anyways. 2d6 is pretty low, I'd set it higher. Meld into stone is available at level 5, and this ability comes at level 6, so we know the damage isn't too much. Modeling it off of a spell isn't a bad idea, and also adds some risk to using the ability, which, even if it doesn't come into play, makes for more interesting decision making.
    I'll knock it up to the straight 6d6 from meld into stone. That could mess up some weaker 6th-level characters pretty bad, so it would definitely add risk to using it defensively. If the guards figure out it's you in the painting because they've been looking at it every day for the last ten years and it definitely doesn't have those six weird-looking adventurers in it, then you could be in a pile of trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzly513 View Post
    It probably won't be a huge deal either way. I probably wouldn't allow it, only because it might cause weird rules conflicts that I cannot foresee.
    I'm not that attached to the idea, so I'll stick with concentration, though I'm still thinking I might allow an exception for illusions. The list of illusions that require concentration would be...
    • silent image
    • blur
    • invisibility
    • phantasmal force
    • shadow blade
    • silence
    • fear
    • hypnotic pattern
    • major image
    • greater invisibility
    • phantasmal killer
    • mislead
    • mental prison
    • project image
    • illusory dragon
    • weird

    ... so I'm still thinking about how bad the potential conflicts there are. I just like the idea of being able to hide in the painting and send a silent image of yourself down the hall. It's not an ability I'm deeply attached to, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twizzly513 View Post
    That would be a nice benefit to add at a capstone.
    Cool, I'll think of a good wording to add. The capstone is pretty short, so I don't feel bad about adding a clause to it.

    Thanks again for all the feedback! I'm thinking this is pretty much production-ready.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [PEACH] Cleric Domain: Art

    Quote Originally Posted by AureusFulgens View Post
    That's a good point. I'll probably knock the time for the offensive ability down to 1 minute and allow the additional saves. I've particularly got hold person in mind, which is a decent comparison in terms of how similar effects work.


    I'll knock it up to the straight 6d6 from meld into stone. That could mess up some weaker 6th-level characters pretty bad, so it would definitely add risk to using it defensively. If the guards figure out it's you in the painting because they've been looking at it every day for the last ten years and it definitely doesn't have those six weird-looking adventurers in it, then you could be in a pile of trouble.
    Sounds good to me. Comparing it with hold person was smart, I hadn't made that connection.

    I'm not that attached to the idea, so I'll stick with concentration, though I'm still thinking I might allow an exception for illusions. The list of illusions that require concentration would be...
    • silent image
    • blur
    • invisibility
    • phantasmal force
    • shadow blade
    • silence
    • fear
    • hypnotic pattern
    • major image
    • greater invisibility
    • phantasmal killer
    • mislead
    • mental prison
    • project image
    • illusory dragon
    • weird

    ... so I'm still thinking about how bad the potential conflicts there are. I just like the idea of being able to hide in the painting and send a silent image of yourself down the hall. It's not an ability I'm deeply attached to, though.
    Seeing the list, keeping it to illusion should be fine and good.

    Cool, I'll think of a good wording to add. The capstone is pretty short, so I don't feel bad about adding a clause to it.

    Thanks again for all the feedback! I'm thinking this is pretty much production-ready.
    Of course, it's been fun! I agree, you've got a solid, complete subclass on your hands, sir!

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