Complaints against Psionics

[LeonBH]

Such as? Being indistinct from magic is either a benefit or complaint from where you stand. Some think it as too different, others think it as too similar. What the ****?

It is differwnt, but mechanically similar. X person spends Y1 resource and gets Z effect. Functionally, exactly the same as X person spending X2 resource and getting Z effect.

It can be counterspelled or dispelled for the most part. So what are you whinging about? The inability to counterspell Extra Attack or Smites?

Not gonna lie, most arguments against Mystic (aside from some pp costs) are absolute grubs.

I really don't care about Mystics one way or the other, but why don't you make an argument about why they're good?

And no, you can't Counterspell a psionic effect because it has no spellcasting components.

[Dudewithknives]

The issues are 3 fold:

1. The class is horrendously imbalanced with itself. Some subclasses are amazing while others are garbage, but everyone can pick any paths or talents. Nobody is going to look at psyknife, and think it is just as good as avatar or wujin.

2. Psychic Assault is crazy.

Their first ability is just spend points do d8s damage, no save, no to hit, just plain take damage depending on how many points they can spend. With the focus from the same path it adds +2 on top.

Ego Whip - 3 psy points and you just straight up shut someone down, even if they make the check.

3. Most of their abilities are based on int saves if they get saves at all. Most classes have most abilities based on common saves and get only 2 or 3 based on the uncommon saves.


Bonus: can't counterspell them either.

[Mortis_Elrod]

The issues are 3 fold:

1. The class is horrendously imbalanced with itself. Some subclasses are amazing while others are garbage, but everyone can pick any paths or talents. Nobody is going to look at psyknife, and think it is just as good as avatar or wujin.

2. Psychic Assault is crazy.

Their first ability is just spend points do d8s damage, no save, no to hit, just plain take damage depending on how many points they can spend. With the focus from the same path it adds +2 on top.

Ego Whip - 3 psy points and you just straight up shut someone down, even if they make the check.

3. Most of their abilities are based on int saves if they get saves at all. Most classes have most abilities based on common saves and get only 2 or 3 based on the uncommon saves.


Bonus: can't counterspell them either.

ok so again this is a discipline problem not a problem with a class itself, rhe disciplines need to be tweaked but there's plenty of options that don't and are also good. And While yes you can't counterspell psionics You can still detect it . Its all still magic. So you can't use one spell on it? therefore broken? i dont think so. How often are people running in to counterspells anyway? Its maybe come up once in my experience, and that was before 5th edition.

As far as your first point goes, having played multiple soul knives as is, I've not had problems of feeling behind or anything of the sort. Most of the time I'm dealing the most damage.

Most classes have a few subclasses that are stronger than the others or weaker than the rest. This does not break the class.

[LeonBH]

ok so again this is a discipline problem not a problem with a class itself, rhe disciplines need to be tweaked but there's plenty of options that don't and are also good. And While yes you can't counterspell psionics You can still detect it . Its all still magic. So you can't use one spell on it? therefore broken? i dont think so. How often are people running in to counterspells anyway? Its maybe come up once in my experience, and that was before 5th edition.

As far as your first point goes, having played multiple soul knives as is, I've not had problems of feeling behind or anything of the sort. Most of the time I'm dealing the most damage.

Most classes have a few subclasses that are stronger than the others or weaker than the rest. This does not break the class.

Semantics. The question is, is Psionics broken, not the Disciplines or the class. Psionics as a whole.

[Dudewithknives]

Semantics. The question is, is Psionics broken, not the Disciplines or the class. Psionics as a whole.

It is not semantics, every type of psyionicist can take whatever discipline they want so certain ones being broken as hell is a problem with the class.

Also the concept of them not being able to be counterspelled means that at level 3 and up, Ego Whip 8s spend 3 points make the big bad useless, ignore resistance, ignore legendary save, ignore immunities, ignore everything, just make the enemy useless.

The class could be tweaked and it would be fine.

[LeonBH]

It is not semantics, every type of psyionicist can take whatever discipline they want so certain ones being broken as hell is a problem with the class.

Also the concept of them not being able to be counterspelled means that at level 3 and up, Ego Whip 8s spend 3 points make the big bad useless, ignore resistance, ignore legendary save, ignore immunities, ignore everything, just make the enemy useless.

The class could be tweaked and it would be fine.

I meant that the distinction between "the class is broken" and "the Discipline is broken" is semantics, because it's just two ways of giving the same answer to the question.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I meant that the distinction between "the class is broken" and "the Discipline is broken" is semantics, because it's just two ways of giving the same answer to the question.

thats like saying wizards are broken if a few spells are broken.

Class itself aside from the disciplines is fine with a few exceptions (reword psionic mastery for god's sake)

Also thats now how ego whip works, at all. Doesn't bypass any of those.

[LeonBH]

thats like saying wizards are broken if a few spells are broken.

Class itself aside from the disciplines is fine with a few exceptions (reword psionic mastery for god's sake)

Also thats now how ego whip works, at all. Doesn't bypass any of those.

No, it's like saying "magic is broken" - because it is. Wish, Simulacrum, True Polymorph, Glibness, and Mirage Arcana can break your game. Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard still exists in this edition - and that's a bad thing.

TBH, I don't have any strong feelings for or against the Mystic class. But I personally think, as far as UA goes, it's too complex up front and I'd rather not play it, or not DM for someone who wants to play it. There's too much room for unanticipated cheese, either because of the RAW, or because the DM or player hasn't mastered the class and thus one or both interprets it in a way that buffs it. The easiest approach is to not touch it until it becomes more streamlined.

[Mortis_Elrod]

No, it's like saying "magic is broken" - because it is. Wish, Simulacrum, True Polymorph, Glibness, and Mirage Arcana can break your game. Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard still exists in this edition - and that's a bad thing.

TBH, I don't have any strong feelings for or against the Mystic class. But I personally think, as far as UA goes, it's too complex up front and I'd rather not play it, or not DM for someone who wants to play it. There's too much room for unanticipated cheese, either because of the RAW, or because the DM or player hasn't mastered the class and thus one or both interprets it in a way that buffs it. The easiest approach is to not touch it until it becomes more streamlined.

I'll agree on that. It's definitely easier not to touch it.

[Dudewithknives]

thats like saying wizards are broken if a few spells are broken.

Class itself aside from the disciplines is fine with a few exceptions (reword psionic mastery for god's sake)

Also thats now how ego whip works, at all. Doesn't bypass any of those.

Yes it does, ego whip is save for half damage, it does not say, "and you do not take the other effects", like Dissonant Whispers or other spells, only the damage is cut in half.

It is not a stun, hold, paralysis or any other condition in the game, so no immunities get it.

It does not matter if you make the save or not, so legendary save does not matter.

The taking damage is not a requirement of the loss of offensive actions, so immunity does not matter.

You can't even counterspell it because you are not casting a spell.

If a person with ego whip wants to shut down the offense of your big bad, they just get within 60 feet and spend 3 psi points.

Could it have been a typo the fact that is does not say that the loss of action is ignored if you make the save, sure. As it is written though it isn't.

[Finlam]

I'll throw my hat in the arena and just say:

Psionic Focus needs to be changed or moved to at least 3rd level.

The focus abilities are mostly very situational, but very good. If psionics was released today, in its current form, nearly every optimized build would have at least 1 psionic (Mystic) level just for the focus alone. The Mystic 1 would be the new Warlock 2.

This mean a lot of DMs who may or may not like psionics will now have entire parties where everyone is somewhat psionic for poorly explained reasons. A lot of DMs don't care for psionics and this will create tension at tables.

Psionics are broken at the moment and, if released in their current form, would actually harm the game.

That said, I agree with Grod: they are one more major revision (and some minor tweaks) from being release ready. I'm opti-mystic that the devs will get it to where it needs to be before release.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Yes it does, ego whip is save for half damage, it does not say, "and you do not take the other effects", like Dissonant Whispers or other spells, only the damage is cut in half.

It is not a stun, hold, paralysis or any other condition in the game, so no immunities get it.

It does not matter if you make the save or not, so legendary save does not matter.

The taking damage is not a requirement of the loss of offensive actions, so immunity does not matter.

You can't even counterspell it because you are not casting a spell.

If a person with ego whip wants to shut down the offense of your big bad, they just get within 60 feet and spend 3 psi points.

Could it have been a typo the fact that is does not say that the loss of action is ignored if you make the save, sure. As it is written though it isn't.

You only suffer the effect if you fail the save.

On a failed save, the creature takes 3d8 psychic
damage, and it is filled with self-doubt, leaving it
able to use its action on its next turn only to take
the Dodge, Disengage, or Hide action

On a successful saving throw, it takes half as much damage.

It clearly says what happens on a failed save and a successful save.

And if thats not clear, look at frostbite, or enervation, or earth tremor. OR you can just read the effect, since as jeremy crawford has said, every spell is its own rule. An effect like this doesn't have to say if you succeed you dont fail. It says exactly what happens on each scenario.

[LeonBH]

What build of Mystic/Sorcerer would enable an Ego Whip/Quickened Slow to burn through Legendary Resistance in two turns?

[Zalabim]

They are a variation of Sorcerer after all. Innate abilities that some trained, while Sorcerer remains ''untrained'' in the sense that it flows through them (thus allowing them to cheat out the system sort of).

I just wanted to say that Sorcerers do train, they just don't train like wizards. They (probably) train more like fighters, and especially barbarians, since magic is a part of their body.

I agree completely.

However I will say that I think it be better received if the flexibility was spread out among more than once class.

If I were to redo the Mystic version 3 is have one Mystic class with maybe 2-3 subclasses being Wu-Jen, Psion, Avatar, and a Fighter subclass, a rogue subclass, and maybe a monk subclass.

Not to say that the Mystic is wrong, but I think one of the complaints is that it’s all bundled into one class as a generalist, when 5e has a lot more focused classes.

5e is already pretty rigid in my eyes so I think having something as flexible as the Mystic is very strong. Which many find overwhelmingly strong.

The mystic as it's been offered is very cleric-like in its format. I know I've heard that the wizard should be split up into separate classes, but I haven't heard the same said about clerics nearly so much.

• 3rd level access to wall of wood seems a bit too potent.
• The nomadic mind ability to be proficient in every skill would be a little unsettling to tables that use skills often.
• Scrying with no save at first level through Find Creature is a bit much.
• Psionic blast's damage with no save or to hit roll required is a bit weird for the game.

It's things like that. Mystic appears to have been developed without touching back to the core game. I'm sure there are others as well.

• Wall of wood does seem to have a lot of HP. It'd be easy to climb over when space permits though, so it's kinda like Plant Growth.
• Nomadic Mind is fine. It's not proficiency in every skill, and even always having proficiency in every skill wouldn't overshadow anyone who was focused on that skill unless the Mystic also had a better attribute there.
• Find Creature isn't scrying. It's accurate to within no better than 1 square mile, and up to 9 square miles. You also only learn where the creature is (and I hope the place has a descriptive name), not where that place is in relation to you.
• Psionic Blast is a worse Magic Missile. Psychic Blast is actually scary.

I wouldn't call it necessarily overpowered, but it's real rough. There are a lot of individual power effects that are wonky or not quite correctly leveled, but the package nature of the powers mitigates that somewhat. Probably needs some GM oversight to use at the moment.

I'd say it's about one more substantial draft away from being done. Besides a lot of the powers needing a little polishing, and high-level powers needing to be invented, it needs to be split into at least two classes, and probably more like three (a psychic with Awakened/Avatar stuff, a gish with Immortal/Nomad stuff, and the Wu Jen as an Avatar: The Last Airbender type class). And I think Psychic Focuses (the more interesting mechanic) need to eat Talents so you only have one set of at-will stuff to deal with.

Wizard needs to be split into at least three classes. Mystic is fine as one class as long as all the subclasses rely on the same gross class functions. There may be room for more psychic classes, but each one needs its own important features to set it apart, and they'll all still draw from a similar pool of effects. There's no reason to block the telekinetic from teleporting, the psychic warrior from causing fear, or the telepath from hurling boulders. Subsuming Talents into Psychic Focus is interesting, but that could get a little clunky and repetitive as you need a Talent for every Focus.
--------
[rest skipped because Psionic Blast and Ego Whip have already been addressed]

[Drascin]

My experience with a Mystic is that the main problem is that the different disciplines are really not balanced among themselves.

A fair few are terribly weak and ridiculously not worth it, most are good and fair, and a couple are "what the living ****", especially when combined by mix-and-matching them from all the different subclasses. Basically it feels to me like the problem people have is that they are very much not thought with multiclassing in mind, because Mystic 1 would give many classes a whole lot of stuff because you can just pick the "good" couple disciplines for their focus and level 1 spells and never touch mystic again.

But, as someone playing a straight Wu-Jen (ie, I'm just picking Wu-Jen disciplines, I'm going for "one with nature" theme) as a taoist hermit, I can tell you I'm simply less powerful than the wizard, in every sense. I just get some passive bennies (immunity to falls as a passive is really cool -it's not even that good, because really, how often does that even come up, but it makes a beautiful statement) and better HP to make up for it.

Thing is, multiclassing is an optional rule in this edition, basically the equivalent of the old editions' Unearthed Arcana rules, and a GM can very reasonably say "no multiclassing to Mystic. Either you're a Mystic or you're not". So I kind of have trouble getting terribly up in arms about it or wanting them to gut the class only so people can't abuse it through multiclassing.

[Asmotherion]

Design Wise

-They are out of place from the 5e basic design. Instead of adding more subclasses to the existing classes, it's designed to add new classes.

-It does not offer something really useful as it is, that could not be covered by psionic subclasses of core classes for specific campains.

-If I don't use Spell Points Variant in my game, why would I want a class that uses Psi points? Don't force that on my game through a class mechanic. If on the other hand I did use that Variant, your new class would look like more of the same really.

-If I understand correctly "their stuff isn't magic, so they are allowed to do their stuff in an anti-magic field, dead magic or wild magic zone etc". Practically we promote the new kid as the cool kid who can just ignore the restrictions all other casters have to go through. They also get weird mechanics to get emphasis on "we don't use magic but something else", and those mechanics are like you try to play a diferent game/eddition of D&D.

-Everything about each and every individual "Psionic Order" says "Wizard Subclass", "Rogue Subclass", "Barbarian Subclass", "Paladin Subclass" etc. subtly inside the text (irony; it might as well have). It's just copy-paste of what already exists. Nothing new, just alternative ways to re-create what was already here. Pass.

Lore Wise

-If I want to make a psionic character (and don't get me wrong, I love to do so), I'll just make one with vanilla 5e content. If I need any refluffing, I'll work with my DM, because 5e is great like that. Old one Warlock with Eldritch (Agonising+Repelling) Blast and Mage Hand is the most Psionic Character I've ever Played. He was using Force damage at-will, pushing things as he tore them appart, could use Mage Hand for At-Will (limited) telekinesis, and could speak telepathically. He eventually could use telekinesis to do even more awesome stuff. Arcane Tricksters who can use Invisible Mage Hand At-will are also quite Psionic Themselves. We Don't need more mechanics for "Psionics", we have everything we need already covered.

[Dr. Cliché]

You only suffer the effect if you fail the save.

Nope. The Successful save says nothing about the creature not suffering the other effects.

It clearly says what happens on a failed save and a successful save.

Yes, and it clearly states that the only benefit of passing your save is that you take half the damage.


Look at how comparable spells are worded.

e.g. Dissonant Whispers:

On a failed save, it takes 3d6 psychic damage and must immediately use its reaction, if available, to move as far as its speed allows away from you. The creature doesn’t move into obviously dangerous ground, such as a fire or a pit.

On a successful save, the target takes half as much damage and doesn’t have to move away.

Or take Destructive Wave:

Each creature you choose within 30 feet of you must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 5d6 thunder damage,as well as 5d6 radiant or necrotic damage (your choice),and be knocked prone.

A creature that succeeds on its saving throw takes half as much damage and isn’t knocked prone.

See how the successful save also tells you what effects (if any) the creature avoids as a result of passing the relevant saving throw?

[Drascin]

-If I understand correctly "their stuff isn't magic, so they are allowed to do their stuff in an anti-magic field, dead magic or wild magic zone etc". Practically we promote the new kid as the cool kid who can just ignore the restrictions all other casters have to go through. They also get weird mechanics to get emphasis on "we don't use magic but something else", and those mechanics are like you try to play a diferent game/eddition of D&D.

No, actually. Psionics is explicitly called as a type of magic and therefore doesn't work in antimagic fields and the like. The only weirdness is that it explicitly doesn't have somatic or verbal components, so you can cast it by staring really hard at a guy.

-Everything about each and every individual "Psionic Order" says "Wizard Subclass", "Rogue Subclass", "Barbarian Subclass", "Paladin Subclass" etc. subtly inside the text (irony; it might as well have). It's just copy-paste of what already exists. Nothing new, just alternative ways to re-create what was already here. Pass.

Personally, I feel that the Wu-Jen Mystic has allowed me do a kind of character that would have required some weirdass Element Monk/Sorcerer multiclass that would have absolutely not worked (among other things, because I don't even know if my DM allows multiclassing).

I can, however, accept that you could have split it into multiple classes. It certainly would have reduced the chance of weird unexpected cross-discipline synergies that the author didn't expect. But personally, I like consolidating things. Why make a new class as a spontaneous cleric when you could just make a Divine Soul subclass for Sorcerer and piggyback off its mechanics, and so on. It is pretty clear that the original design of Mystic was thought up for Awakened and Immortal (the Psion and Psywarrior), and the other three subclasses were kind of added by piggybacking on the mechanics.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Nope. The Successful save says nothing about the creature not suffering the other effects.



Yes, and it clearly states that the only benefit of passing your save is that you take half the damage.


Look at how comparable spells are worded.

e.g. Dissonant Whispers:





Or take Destructive Wave:





See how the successful save also tells you what effects (if any) the creature avoids as a result of passing the relevant saving throw?

I’ve can also pull up spells. Look at frostbite, enervation earth tremor.

It says what happens on a succcess. It doesn’t have to say what doesn’t. It doesn’t say your poisoned stunned and petrified all at the same time but that doesn’t mean you are. This is completely not RAW or RAI. Just because a couple other spells have redundant wording doesn’t mean the discipline needs it.

[mephnick]

No, actually. Psionics is explicitly called as a type of magic and therefore doesn't work in antimagic fields and the like. The only weirdness is that it explicitly doesn't have somatic or verbal components, so you can cast it by staring really hard at a guy.

This is my biggest issue. They get subtle spell. For free. Forever.

That is wildly unbalanced regardless of the class they stick it on. You don't just get to wave components and visible spellcasting away because of fluff. That's not how it works.

[Dr. Cliché]

I’ve can also pull up spells. Look at frostbite, enervation earth tremor.

None of which are remotely comparable in terms of wording.

Frostbite and Earth Tremor make no mention of successful saves. As far as they are concerned, something only happens if the save is failed.

Enervation describes the successful save first. It then goes on to describe the additional effects that occur on a failed save.

Want to try again?

It says what happens on a succcess. It doesn’t have to say what doesn’t.

Yes it does. The only exceptions would be if it specified the effect of a successful save first (like Enervation) or else only specified that something happens on a failed save (like Frostbite), in which case it can be assumed that nothing happens on a successful save.

However, Ego Whip does neither - it clearly states what happens on a successful save. You take half damage. Nowhere does it say that you don't suffer the other effects - unlike every other spell written in that manner.

It doesn’t say your poisoned stunned and petrified all at the same time but that doesn’t mean you are.

If you're resorting to this nonsense then you must be aware your argument has no leg to stand on.

[Mortis_Elrod]

This is my biggest issue. They get subtle spell. For free. Forever.

That is wildly unbalanced regardless of the class they stick it on. You don't just get to wave components and visible spellcasting away because of fluff. That's not how it works.

I see this being a big issue for some, non issue for others.

What would you do instead? Honestly I think forcing components to psionics would break many people’s idea of it.

What components would you start adding to the disciplines ?

[Mortis_Elrod]

None of which are remotely comparable in terms of wording.

Frostbite and Earth Tremor make no mention of successful saves. As far as they are concerned, something only happens if the save is failed.

Enervation describes the successful save first. It then goes on to describe the additional effects that occur on a failed save.

Want to try again?


Yes it does.



If you're resorting to this nonsense then you must be aware your argument has no leg to stand on.

Enervation wording is no different, the message remains the same regardless if the sentence was first or not. Your adding in effects to the discipline that aren’t there. Earth tremor must have the same knocked prone effect since it doesn’t say it doesn’t. Same with every other spell I mentioned. That is precisely your argument: “it doesn’t say it doesn’t”

Dissonant whispers doesn’t do the exact same thing as ego whip. So comparing them was wrong in the first place.


And again as Jeremy Crawford has stated, each spell is its own rule. You can’t look at other spells and decide what happens. Each effect is its own.

[Drascin]

This is my biggest issue. They get subtle spell. For free. Forever.

That is wildly unbalanced regardless of the class they stick it on. You don't just get to wave components and visible spellcasting away because of fluff. That's not how it works.

Personally, I just don't think it's... that big a deal?

I've always felt that Subtle spell for other classes has traditionally been way overcosted, myself. It's a handy bonus, but I never saw someone burn a feat on getting still spell back when I played 3rd, let me assure you. Plus, well, the Mystic disciplines are generally weaker than similar spells, and they don't get the same progression (mystic stops at 5th level spells), and honestly my tables kind of ignore the components for the non-full casters because honestly speaking having a Ranger start to gesticulate and go "hocum pocum gobledygookum" to cast a spell feels super weird and remembering which spells have what components and what can you cast while holding your shield and what you can't and stuff is a pain in the behind for basically no benefit.

[mephnick]

What would you do instead?

At least give them some kind of visual cue that something is happening. Halo of light when they cast or glowing eyes.

what can you cast while holding your shield and what you can't and stuff is a pain in the behind for basically no benefit.

It's the single major drawback of taking a shield. You can ignore it if you want but to say it's meaningless is wrong. Decisions need give and take to be balanced.

People can do whatever they want, I was just saying why I'll never allow psionics in their current form.

[Drascin]

At least give them some kind of visual cue that something is happening. Halo of light when they cast or glowing eyes.



It's the single major drawback of taking a shield. You can ignore it if you want but to say it's meaningless is wrong. Decisions need give and take to be balanced.

People can do whatever they want, I was just saying why I'll never allow psionics in their current form.

I dunno, maybe it's from playing with the people I play, but we have a party of six with that, and there's one shield in the entire party, and that's the Fighter. The entire reason for ignoring components is aesthetics, after all.

Heck, I add visual elements to most of my disciplines, completely unforced, for reasons of aesthetics. It's just that they're not the typical gobledygook of D&D magic. The fact that there are no forced specific components means I can just make it look like waterbending katas and lean on the mysticism angle, rather than the hermeticism of D&D magic. It's never really been an issue.

[Anonymouswizard]

I don't dislike psionics, but I'm not a massive fan of the 5e version.

I'm planning a homebrew class at the moment that makes psionics and ki be the same power source. I'm calling it the Psychic, at 1st level it gets Unarmoured Defence, Mind Blast (opponent makes a Wisdom save or takes 1dX damage), then at level 2 gains ki points, mind speak, and various telepathic powers as they increase in level. I'm uncertain what I'll be doing for the subclasses, I'm considering one focused on psionic combat (getting a variety of ways to use ki points to enhance their Mind Blast), a mind control one (denying actions and inflicting the charmed condition), and one more than I have no idea about. Maybe luck manipulation or some justification for giving buffs to your allies.

I find that this make psionics different from magic more than the current version does, and much more similar to the other internal power source in the game. I agree that it's not what everybody would like, but I just ended up wondering 'how could I make a successful psion that didn't feel like a full caster' and it's the result.

[JackPhoenix]

Psionics isn't broken.

Psionics isn't in 5e. Not yet. Sure, there are few monsters with psionics, but that doesn't really count. There's some playtest material on the level of dandwiki stuff. There are some homebrew psionic classes and stuff. That doesn't really matter.

Only when psionics gets officially released can we argue if it's broken or not.

[Naanomi]

Psionics isn't broken.

Psionics isn't in 5e. Not yet. Sure, there are few monsters with psionics, but that doesn't really count. There's some playtest material on the level of dandwiki stuff. There are some homebrew psionic classes and stuff. That doesn't really matter.

Only when psionics gets officially released can we argue if it's broken or not.

People are specifically evaluation the Unearthed Arcana Mystic class here...

[JackPhoenix]

People are specifically evaluation the Unearthed Arcana Mystic class here...

I'm reacting to the OP. It's hard to argue if something's broken if we haven't seen the final version yet... playtests are all over the place and differ from the released material.