I've figured out the gates! (Fan Theory 1,645,724)

[brian 333]

I know what the gates are! It took me a day to realize I had already got it...

The DM need not be a sole individual. I once played a game where the DM split the party and then two DMs sat back to back running the dungeon for two groups simultaneously.

In the above post it seemed implied that the DM was the gods, but my bet is The Snarl is the DM. Who else can erase gods from the campaign world?

The empty ocean world in the desert with no life. The whole world in the sky above Azure City. They are other worlds the DM is working on, with different rulesets, possibly. The DM would have the power to remove a pantheon of gods from his world when early worldbuilding was revised, and he would be capable of ending the world.

But the creator never wants to quit creating, and the 3.5 ruleset is angiquated.

Oh, the gates. You see, this campaign world is the DM's early efforts at worldbuilding. It's been revised at least three times, considering Haley's assertion that her daddy was a 1st edition thief. Lots of work was put into the setting, but along the way the DM created five other campaign worlds, at least one of which is in its infancy. The DM may have gotten as far as creating the empty ocean. The gates weren't to keep the Snarl out, but to keep the PCs in.

Who knows? That world in space may have been a d20 Modern world or a far future space opera planet. Or it may have been a different campaign world for 4.0 edition. Or anything the DM wanted. In any case, any PC who attempts to cross between worlds risks erasure by the DM. As we saw when plans were being made for exactly that purpose.

The OotS is working to save the campaign world. The DM is planning to scrap it and start over. It's up to the PCs to determine if the setting is worthy of yet another revision.

[Elanasaurus]

Sorry I'm a bit confused. I always saw the OOTSverse as a comic strip universe with a D&D setting.
Are you saying that the Snarl created the gates? If the Snarl is the GM, who exactly are the players? Why would the GM create the Gates/Portals to other worlds if he didn't want the players to use them?

[Kish]

Sorry I'm a bit confused. I always saw the OOTSverse as a comic strip universe with a D&D setting.
Are you saying that the Snarl created the gates? If the Snarl is the GM, who exactly are the players? Why would the GM create the Gates/Portals to other worlds if he didn't want the players to use them?

It's worth noting that Rich has explicitly stated that there is no DM, and no players, just characters in a D&D setting.

[Elanasaurus]

It's worth noting that Rich has explicitly stated that there is no DM, and no players, just characters in a D&D setting.

Oh. I didn't know that. Thank you.

In fact I haven't read most of Rich's statements.

[Razade]

I know what the gates are! It took me a day to realize I had already got it...



The empty ocean world in the desert with no life. The whole world in the sky above Azure City. They are other worlds the DM is working on, with different rulesets, possibly. The DM would have the power to remove a pantheon of gods from his world when early worldbuilding was revised, and he would be capable of ending the world.

But the creator never wants to quit creating, and the 3.5 ruleset is angiquated.

Oh, the gates. You see, this campaign world is the DM's early efforts at worldbuilding. It's been revised at least three times, considering Haley's assertion that her daddy was a 1st edition thief. Lots of work was put into the setting, but along the way the DM created five other campaign worlds, at least one of which is in its infancy. The DM may have gotten as far as creating the empty ocean. The gates weren't to keep the Snarl out, but to keep the PCs in.

Who knows? That world in space may have been a d20 Modern world or a far future space opera planet. Or it may have been a different campaign world for 4.0 edition. Or anything the DM wanted. In any case, any PC who attempts to cross between worlds risks erasure by the DM. As we saw when plans were being made for exactly that purpose.

The OotS is working to save the campaign world. The DM is planning to scrap it and start over. It's up to the PCs to determine if the setting is worthy of yet another revision.

Yeah...no. Nice fanfiction though.

OotS is just a regular world where the laws of physics and the like are D&D rules. It's not an actual campaign, there's no DM. Simple as that.

[martianmister]

Gods are the DM equivalents. Snarl is literally a continuity snarl came to life.

[brian 333]

I didn't say the PCs had players. I didn't say the DM had a player.

And if the gods were the DM, they could declare one continuity thread correct and move on, but they cannot touch the Snarl.

Who, in any campaign world can create or erase continuity snarls? The DM. Nobody else, unless the DM should pass his creation on to another DM. The Snarl cannot exist without a DM behind it, unless it is itself the DM.

Similarly, the OotSverse cannot have been created except by a DM because the laws of physics of fantassy role playing games requires a creator from outside that setting.

The Snarl is creating other worlds, and doesn't like it when inhabitants of his first creation try to creep into their new ones.

I can relate to this. I ran a 1st ed game simultaneously with a Traveller game, swapping between the two for a change of pace. One of my players played Everin Strongarm and E. Vrin Strong in the two campaigns. Then my brother started a 2nd ed. campaign and the player tried to port the same character to that one too.

I can also relate to frustration at revision, because my 1st ed. world was revised for two and a half editions. I had a few continuity errors as the maps evolved, and a few obsolete monsters hanging about unrevised. When 4 and 5 came out virtually simultaneously I abandoned the idea of upgrading yet again, and my world sits in various editions awaiting a rewrite to bring it up to date. When my brother stops by we sometimes crack the 1st ed. books for a trip back in time.

I'm pretty sure the inhabitants of my world would have done exactly what the OotS guys are doing if they thought it would help.

In the mean time, I've created Shadowrun, Battletech, Runequest, Gurps, and half a dozen short or one shot campaigns. But they all go back to a day when I came home from my tour overseas to see my brother and his friends with my dice and my D&D books. The map I drew that evening has grown.

And I've stolen ideas generated for that world to use in others. My brother stole a scene and put it smack in the center of his world. There are rifts all over, both continuity and incomplete revision. My world which began with a river and three cities now fills a globe, but only if we squint when the edges of one campaign bump into another.

So, almost exactly what happened to my first game world is happening to OotS. It's one last campaign before the revision. And how well the players do will determine if they get a 5.0 revision or a storage bin in the garage.

[Lacuna Caster]

So, almost exactly what happened to my first game world is happening to OotS. It's one last campaign before the revision. And how well the players do will determine if they get a 5.0 revision or a storage bin in the garage.

I think it's unarguable that OOTS has gone through significant shifts in both tone and effective mechanical content over time. I actually quite like this idea.

[Elanasaurus]

I didn't say the PCs had players. I didn't say the DM had a player.
*snip*
So, almost exactly what happened to my first game world is happening to OotS. It's one last campaign before the revision. And how well the players do will determine if they get a 5.0 revision or a storage bin in the garage.

So in your theory do the PCs have players or not?
I still don't get the gates. In your world, there were only rifts, not gates. Why would a DM place gates over rifts he had purposely created? Why not just close the rifts?
Or is the Snarl actually two entities in a constant state of war?

[brian 333]

So in your theory do the PCs have players or not?
I still don't get the gates. In your world, there were only rifts, not gates. Why would a DM place gates over rifts he had purposely created? Why not just close the rifts?
Or is the Snarl actually two entities in a constant state of war?

No, there are no players in evidence, but it is not relevant to this theory. It really doesn't matter if there were or were not players, but I rather like the idea of a campaign world coming to life on its own.

In OotS they are only rifts which some Second Edition PCs tried to fix by creating gates over them. The gates themselves were created by The Order Of The Scribble, possibly during the revision to 3.0.

The DM created the rifts through plot holes resolved via retcon, revisions to update to new game systems, (remember the mosters which never got converted to 3rd ed.?), and campaigns which ended with TPKs. Add to this the erasure of a whole pantheon and the creation of new racial deities.

Now, assume the original D&D game created a village, road, and dungeon. It still exists, even if PCs never go there any more. But the ideas for an upgrade to 1st ed. from that humble beginning creates a huge world with four pantheons from the Deities and Demigods tome. It still has a link, a rift, where stuff from one world came into the next. Now that world sees massive development growing from vague ideas into a real campaign setting, but when 2.0 comes along it's time to trim some of the ideas which didn't pan out.

In this case, the Olympians were excised because the revision discarded the Eastern continent and its gods. This was when the DM realized he had created a series of conflicting plot elements which manifest as rifts in the setting. But the 3.5 revision is followed almost immediately by the 4.0 ed. This calls for another complete revision which opens yet another rift, and then before the 3.5 campaign ends 5.0 comes out opening the potential for the DM to revise straight from 3.5 to 5.0, skipping the 4.0 version entirely.

We've seen version 4.0 when Blackwing got a glimpse through the Azure City gate and Laurin saw the empty ocean of the DMs 5.0 revision to come. So each rift was caused by revisions which ripped pieces of the OotS universe for use in its derivative campaign settings, and the gates were createdby players who want to preserve the world they know.

The Snarl is the manifestation of cumulative story errors which threatens to destroy the world.Whether it is a single entith or many is not relevant. What is important is that it exercuses the powers reserved for the DM: the ability to alter the campaign world. We bave only seen destructive behaviors from this being, but we've never seen it from the other side of the rifts. What it destroys in one world it might recreate in another, but even better. Imagine Laurin as the god of Psionics!

So, as the only being capable of eliminating not only huge segments of the game map but even the gods, the Snarl demonstrates it has the power of a DM. Even all the gods of all the pantheons could not save the Olympians when The Snarl decreed, and none of the gods fighting The Snarl was injured accidentally in the battle of their lives, demonstrating a degree of precision and control on the part of The Snarl which a random force of destruction could never exercise.

Notes:
If Rich ever publishes an OotS campaign setting his world will explode with rifts as DMs paint their favorite spot and many others paint the same spot differently.

I hope we get a glimpse into the rift behind Kraggor's Gate. I'm betting it is a village, possibly Hommlet, with a road to a nearby ruin, surrounded by nothing but possibilities. You remember the place; we all started our adventure there.

[Razade]

I know what the gates are! It took me a day to realize I had already got it...



The empty ocean world in the desert with no life. The whole world in the sky above Azure City. They are other worlds the DM is working on, with different rulesets, possibly. The DM would have the power to remove a pantheon of gods from his world when early worldbuilding was revised, and he would be capable of ending the world.

But the creator never wants to quit creating, and the 3.5 ruleset is angiquated.

Oh, the gates. You see, this campaign world is the DM's early efforts at worldbuilding. It's been revised at least three times, considering Haley's assertion that her daddy was a 1st edition thief. Lots of work was put into the setting, but along the way the DM created five other campaign worlds, at least one of which is in its infancy. The DM may have gotten as far as creating the empty ocean. The gates weren't to keep the Snarl out, but to keep the PCs in.

Who knows? That world in space may have been a d20 Modern world or a far future space opera planet. Or it may have been a different campaign world for 4.0 edition. Or anything the DM wanted. In any case, any PC who attempts to cross between worlds risks erasure by the DM. As we saw when plans were being made for exactly that purpose.

The OotS is working to save the campaign world. The DM is planning to scrap it and start over. It's up to the PCs to determine if the setting is worthy of yet another revision.

No, there are no players in evidence, but it is not relevant to this theory. It really doesn't matter if there were or were not players, but I rather like the idea of a campaign world coming to life on its own..

Except there are in your original write up of your theory.

Also, as said before. There's no DM. Not even a Metaphysical DM.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not even a Metaphysical DM.

Then why are they rolling dice?

[Lacuna Caster]

Also, as said before. There's no DM. Not even a Metaphysical DM.

'Narrative causality' appears to be a functionally equivalent concept. (Plus there's technically role-playing XP.)

[brian 333]

Except there are in your original write up of your theory.

Also, as said before. There's no DM. Not even a Metaphysical DM.

Pedantry? Really?

There are Player Characters. That's all I've asserted. Whether or not there are players behind them is irrelevant to my theory. I haven't seen any, and I take The Giant at his word when he says there are no players.

And my assertion that The Snarl is the DM is based on in comic evidence. Whether The Snarl is controlled by a player DM or not is also irrelevant. There is nothing in comic to show there are players outside the game world involved in anything inside the campaign setting, and this includes a DM. However, The Snarl demonstrates DM powers, which the gods do not. The Snarl is stronger than four pantheons of gods, and has the power to erase both gods and a huge segment of the game map with such precision that nothing aside from its totally obliterated targets was even singed while the gods fought the battle of their lives. Which only a DM can do.

[Elanasaurus]

So what you're saying is that the Snarl is this God above Gods who wants to destroy the universe and create a new and improved one. But most of the inhabitants of that universe don't want the world to end.
Because most people don't enjoy dying.

[Razade]

Then why are they rolling dice?

Because that was when it was still a strip dedicated to D&D jokes and before a story was set up.

Pedantry? Really?

Welcome to Giants in the Playground.

There are Player Characters. That's all I've asserted. Whether or not there are players behind them is irrelevant to my theory. I haven't seen any, and I take The Giant at his word when he says there are no players.

I don't recall Rich call them PC's either. I mean, if you're a PC and you have no Player...you're a Non-Player Character. Or an NPC. One sort of requires the other, doesn't it?

And my assertion that The Snarl is the DM is based on in comic evidence.

Well...what you're claiming is evidence. Your argument to back that up is...well it's certainly something.

Whether The Snarl is controlled by a player DM or not is also irrelevant.

Then it's not a Dungeon Master, is it? A DM sets the story, the Snarl isn't doing that. It's not rolling encounter tables and it's not rewarding XP for killing monsters. It's not dolling out weapons and gear in treasure chests. It's literally not doing anything that a DM would do...outside working on campaign worlds. Which incidently isn't something a DM alone does. At my tables I let the players help flesh out the world. That's a digression however.

The Snarl isn't a DM, it's not acting like a DM. It's acting like...well it's not acting like anything because we haven't really seen it. The Snarl may well not even be a thing. Plenty of theories have argued that and many of them far better argued than using a word and then saying it's acting like the word because it's a word.

There is nothing in comic to show there are players outside the game world involved in anything inside the campaign setting, and this includes a DM.

Right. So there are neither a DM nor players. Glad you can point out the flaws in your own argument. 10/10.

However, The Snarl demonstrates DM powers, which the gods do not.

Excuse me, what? The Gods made the "Campaign World" under your argument. They populated it and they made the history and everything in it. The Gods have done exactly the same thing as you're claiming the Snarl is doing. Except there's actual in comic evidence for it. As opposed to the Snarl making worlds because...that hasn't been demonstrated at all.

In fact it's the Gods who are planning on destroying the Campaign Setting as you define it and starting over. It's the Gods voting to restart the Campaign World. Not the Snarl.


So. Counter Argument. The Gods are the DMs. There's far more evidence for that than there is for yours.

The Snarl is stronger than four pantheons of gods, and has the power to erase both gods and a huge segment of the game map with such precision that nothing aside from its totally obliterated targets was even singed while the gods fought the battle of their lives.

Is it? Last I recall the Snarl lost to the Gods. Because they sealed it away. The only reason they didn't kill it was because it's immune to the Divine Powers the Gods have. They still won though. Also it didn't destroy anything with precision, it annihilated a world in a rampage. That's the opposite of precision. It also only killed the Eastern Pantheon because...they didn't think it could kill them in the first place.

Which only a DM can do.

Or players. Or a well placed taco dropped on a page the DM has at his table. Or a host of other things. A DM isn't God.

[Liquor Box]

I don't recall Rich call them PC's either. I mean, if you're a PC and you have no Player...you're a Non-Player Character. Or an NPC. One sort of requires the other, doesn't it?

He calls them PCs. See panel 6:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

[Razade]

He calls them PCs. See panel 6:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

Suppose so. Still doesn't really take away that The Snarl doesn't fit the description of a DM. The Gods do. Because the Snarl hasn't made any worlds that we know about. Only the Gods have.

[KorvinStarmast]

A DM isn't God.

Yeah, no DM would accept the power reduction to a god.

DM's are by default and by definition greater than any god in his or her campaign.
If you are however using God as a proper noun, then we agree. (But that's getting us into areas we ought not to drag into GiTP discussions ...)

[brian 333]

Then it's not a Dungeon Master, is it? A DM sets the story, the Snarl isn't doing that. It's not rolling encounter tables and it's not rewarding XP for killing monsters. It's not dolling out weapons and gear in treasure chests. It's literally not doing anything that a DM would do...outside working on campaign worlds. Which incidently isn't something a DM alone does. At my tables I let the players help flesh out the world. That's a digression however.

The Snarl isn't a DM, it's not acting like a DM. It's acting like...well it's not acting like anything because we haven't really seen it. The Snarl may well not even be a thing. Plenty of theories have argued that and many of them far better argued than using a word and then saying it's acting like the word because it's a word.

The old saw about detecting ducks comes to mind here. If it quacks and waddles it's very likely to be a duck. In fact, it is more reasonable that The Snarl is DM than assuming it is not because the only times we see it is when it is exercising powers D&D reserves for the DM.

But let's ask who gives RP Exp? Who watches the dice and sets the DC of a challenge? You can bet Thor would fudge a few rolls if he could, and he's one of the good guys. If the gods, (small g), could, then Hell would have clerics by awarding massive RP Exp to anyone who showed up for the job interview.

Conclusion? The gods do not have such power because they are not the DM

Right. So there are neither a DM nor players. Glad you can point out the flaws in your own argument. 10/10..

Once again, this is something I have not asserted, so I feel no particular desire to refute it. My argument stands whether players exist or not. There is simply no evidence of players who exist outside of the comic, but aside from Rich's assertion there are none, there is no in-comic evidence to prove it. I take the author at his word.

But there is a DM, even if it's not played by a real world human. Dice rolls have to be adjudicated. In fact, Durkon exposes the presence of a DM very early in the comic when he forgets to add his bonuses and then retroactively kills a goblin he should have killed in the previous round. Only a DM would need the player to do this because without a DM, bonuses are automatically applied whether the PC declares it or not. Otherwise some player will declare bonuses he is not entitled to declare and just keep listing until everything in the room is dead. What's to stop him?

Something enforces the rules. That something in D&D is a DM.

Excuse me, what? The Gods made the "Campaign World" under your argument. They populated it and they made the history and everything in it. The Gods have done exactly the same thing as you're claiming the Snarl is doing. Except there's actual in comic evidence for it. As opposed to the Snarl making worlds because...that hasn't been demonstrated at all.

In fact it's the Gods who are planning on destroying the Campaign Setting as you define it and starting over. It's the Gods voting to restart the Campaign World. Not the Snarl.


So. Counter Argument. The Gods are the DMs. There's far more evidence for that than there is for yours..

And you have their word that this is so...
Who created the gods? A DM worldbuilder. This creator built his gods with the memory of creating the world, just as it created Shojo with those neat crayon memories of Soon.

As for evidence: what worldbuilding have you seen from the gods? What adjudication of game rules have they issued? What retcons have they imposed? And most damning, if the gods are the de facto DM of the setting, why have they not simply excised the rifts and declared them never to have existed?

That they cannot do any of these things indicates they do not have DM powers.

Is it? Last I recall the Snarl lost to the Gods. Because they sealed it away. The only reason they didn't kill it was because it's immune to the Divine Powers the Gods have. They still won though. Also it didn't destroy anything with precision, it annihilated a world in a rampage. That's the opposite of precision. It also only killed the Eastern Pantheon because...they didn't think it could kill them in the first place.



Or players. Or a well placed taco dropped on a page the DM has at his table. Or a host of other things. A DM isn't God.

The Snarl lost? A pantheon and a continent were erased. Of course the gods declare they won, but they utterly failed to achieve even a small part of their intent. Even poor old Zeus was scrubbed, along with every other Olympian influence in the setting.

This reminds me of the kid who comes into the room with a shiner saying how he kicked butt.

To be sure, I have added two and two here, but I'm not saying the answer is anything but four. Only Rich knows if two and two are the right numbers to add. I certainly can be wrong, but the pieces fit my thesis very well.

You are free to choose other explanations or choose to not explain at your leisure.

[Razade]

The old saw about detecting ducks comes to mind here. If it quacks and waddles it's very likely to be a duck. In fact, it is more reasonable that The Snarl is DM than assuming it is not because the only times we see it is when it is exercising powers D&D reserves for the DM.

This isn't a Duck Test though. Because the Snarl doesn't show powers that a DM has. You're claiming that but the evidence doesn't meet that claim. The full quote of the Duck Test reveals why it doesn't apply. It's

"When I see a bird that walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I call that bird a duck".

But when you see a Snarl (a thing we don't have in our world...that we know of) act like a DM (which...it hasn't) then you're NOT in the right of calling it a DM. You fail abductive reasoning.

But let's ask who gives RP Exp? Who watches the dice and sets the DC of a challenge? You can bet Thor would fudge a few rolls if he could, and he's one of the good guys. If the gods, (small g), could, then Hell would have clerics by awarding massive RP Exp to anyone who showed up for the job interview.

Hel (one l) doesn't have clerics. Or didn't. Has'em now. Kinda a huge plot point there ya know?

But to answer the question of who awards RP XP...The DM? Not the Snarl though. Or are you going to try and claim that the Snarl doled out the RP XP we see Belkar get? Because you better have a very rigorous argument to show that it does. I mean, all it does to life is destroy it. So how is it awarding XP?

Not that you are arguing that. But...

Conclusion? The gods do not have such power because they are not the DM

You kind of ARE by this statement. If the Gods aren't the DM, and you're saying that the Snarl IS, then you need to show that the Snarl is the one handing out XP. The Snarl doesn't have that power either that we know of. It certainly doesn't seem to have that power. It also doesn't seem to have the power to make WORLDS which the Gods do. So the Snarl has...less powers than the Gods. So it's not a DM. If it's got less powers than the Gods (demonstrably) who you argue aren't DMs then...it can't be one either. A DM can't be weaker than its creations, after all.


You, once again, demonstrate the faulty logic you're using and defeat your own argument. Which I love, it's like...my favorite thing about this thread.

Once again, this is something I have not asserted, so I feel no particular desire to refute it. My argument stands whether players exist or not. There is simply no evidence of players who exist outside of the comic, but aside from Rich's assertion there are none, there is no in-comic evidence to prove it. I take the author at his word.

There's no evidence of a DM either.

Also, the evidence that there is no players behind the character is what Rich says. Because he's the one making the story. Which ya know...would make him the DM if anyone or anything is.

But there is a DM, even if it's not played by a real world human.

No there isn't.

Dice rolls have to be adjudicated.

We've never seen dice rolls. Other than for humor sake. So there aren't dice rolls to adjudicate.

Which ya know...even if there was. Are you saying the Snarl is adjudicating them? Because you're claiming it's the DM.

In fact, Durkon exposes the presence of a DM very early in the comic when he forgets to add his bonuses and then retroactively kills a goblin he should have killed in the previous round.

Back when the comic had no actual story or plot. Rich has stated that there's a point where the jokes are just jokes. Like that comic, for instance. Do you want to use the Dragon Magazine comics to prove there's a DM too?

None of this gets you to the Snarl being the DM either. So when are you going to get around to saying "and this all shows the Snarl is the DM".

Only a DM would need the player to do this because without a DM, bonuses are automatically applied whether the PC declares it or not. Otherwise some player will declare bonuses he is not entitled to declare and just keep listing until everything in the room is dead. What's to stop him?

There is no player though. So there's nothing for a Player to do. You know. If it wasn't just a joke. Which it was.

Something enforces the rules. That something in D&D is a DM.

I mean...that's fine but that still doesn't make the Snarl that thing. The Snarl isn't the one enforcing the rules.

Also, The Rules are just like our Laws of Physics. There's nothing enforcing those. They're simply the state of the Universe. In the OotSverse gravity is just the speed of a creature falling. Etc etc etc for whatever rule you want to bring up.

And you have their word that this is so...

Well, we also have evidence in the comic.

Who created the gods? A DM worldbuilder. This creator built his gods with the memory of creating the world, just as it created Shojo with those neat crayon memories of Soon.

Yeah...but The Snarl isn't the answer to your question. The Snarl didn't create the Gods. The Gods created The Snarl. See "the Snarl can't be the DM because it's weaker than the Gods" argument.

As for evidence: what worldbuilding have you seen from the gods?

Literally the world the story takes place in. They've actually worldbuilt (literally as in built it with their hands) two worlds. What worlds have you seen the Snarl build? None. None is the answer. You haven't seen the Snarl really do much of anything but kill.

What adjudication of game rules have they issued?

Well, Thor certainly fudged the rules on Control Weather for Durkon. The Gods made Miko fall from her paladinhood. So that's....two. What adjudication of game rules has The Snarl done?

What retcons have they imposed? And most damning, if the gods are the de facto DM of the setting, why have they not simply excised the rifts and declared them never to have existed?

Well, I call denying an entire pantheon of Gods having never existed a pretty good retcon. Also claiming that a whole world they made never existed another. So...two. Do those count as retcons? They sorta do I guess?

The second...they're doing that right now aren't they? What's this whole damn arc about if not them trying to declare the rifts never existed by destroying the planet and remaking the prison the Snarl is in.

So...do I win yet? Because I feel like you've lost any damn ground you could stand on. Because, if I even wanted to cede the idea that The Snarl is the DM, these questions are equally (and more so) damning for you.

What has The Snarl rectonned? Nothing. Why did the DM, if it is the Snarl like you think, let the Gates exist if the Players are just going to try and stop it from destroying the game world.

Even better. Why doesn't The Snarl (the DM as you claim) just stop the players by destroying them? It should be able to do that if it were the DM. Rocks fall, everyone dies. Right?

That they cannot do any of these things indicates they do not have DM powers.

Well. Just showed not only do they have those powers but that the Snarl doesn't have them whatsoever. Unless you can ya know....answer my return questions with examples? I'll be waiting.

The Snarl lost?

Yeah. I'd call being sealed away and unable to destroy any more Gods a loss.

A pantheon and a continent were erased.

A pantheon wasn't "ereased". They were all brutally murdered. The people who erased their memory as pointed out were the Gods.

Also the Snarl didn't erase a continent. It destroyed the first world the Gods made. Or maybe it didn't. We don't know if that part is true.

Of course the gods declare they won, but they utterly failed to achieve even a small part of their intent.

Which was....what? What was their intent? They made a world with worshipers. Twice. I'd say they didn't fail jack.

Even poor old Zeus was scrubbed, along with every other Olympian influence in the setting.

By the Gods.

This reminds me of the kid who comes into the room with a shiner saying how he kicked butt.

Might well have. Winning a fight doesn't mean not taking any hits. Winning a fight just means the people throwing punches at you stop.

To be sure, I have added two and two here, but I'm not saying the answer is anything but four. Only Rich knows if two and two are the right numbers to add. I certainly can be wrong, but the pieces fit my thesis very well.

That's...not what you're doing though it's cute you think it is. You're not only able to be wrong. You are wrong.

You are free to choose other explanations or choose to not explain at your leisure.

I'm not making a positive claim. You are. I've provided...ample...more than ample...evidence to the contrary of your point. You have, at every turn, rather eagerly avoided actually providing evidence outside what I can only fairly call baseless assertions.

[Liquor Box]

I hope one of you two necros this thread and acknowledges it, when the other is ultimately proven correct.

[Sm3gl]

I actually kind of like the theory. Kind of like the dad in the Lego movie.

What would MitD be in this theory of yours considering he has some sort of special relationship with the gates or the snarl? The DMs annoying kid brother who the mum insists has to be allowed to play?

What about the swirly eyes that Laurin gets? Is that her being convinced of the benefit of scrapping this world and starting a new D&D Next campaign?

[brian 333]

Razade, what can I say?

Your position is that I am wrong. You say that, but you don't prove it.

Instead of a wall of text, let's start with one issue: I claimed that The Snarl used powers reserved to the DM.

1) In D&D a world is always created from outside that world. The physics of Fantasy RPG worlds requires this as it requires dice rolls. Therefore Stickverse must have a DM. (The DM need not be a real world human.)

Question 1: What entity reaches into the setting from outside?

2) In D&D there is exactly one "player" (for lack of a better word,) with the ability to alter the campaign map and the available pantheons. We call this player the DM.

Question 2: What entity has altered the game map and available pantheons?
Question 2a: Would a random entity of destruction be capable of exercising such fine control that the entire Olympian influence was eradicated without even singing Rabbit's whiskers?

3) I have read assertions that the gods defeated The Snarl. But we have only their word on that. Is it not equally likely that it accomplished what it wanted to do and left? The gods didn't create the rifts, and they cannot destroy them. The gates were built by 2nd ed. PCs, not by the gods. So the gods, other than having taken credit for driving it away, accomplished none of their goals, (saving the Olympians.) And we have their word on that.

Question 3: Is it reasonable to assume the gods were victorious against a being they could not harm, or is it more reasonable to assume The Snarl accomplished its mission and went home?

The question has been raised about the gods sealing out The Snarl, but at the end of Edition 2 we have The Order Of The Scribble building gates to keep it out. The gods were less than successful. The Snarl is not only active, but apparently came to the attention of The Order Of The Scribble because things (and people) were disappearing. The Why of this remains unexplained.

Question 4: Other than the assertion of the gods, what evidence exists that demonstrates any effective restraint of The Snarl?



The available evidence demonstrates that The Snarl is de facto DM. Assertions are not evidence, or I'd have won those golden gloves back when I was 17. Cause I beat the snot out of that dude, and the judges gave him the bout on points.


Now, as for coming back and admitting I'm wrong: well, back in my second post I admitted I could be. I'm waiting to see what The Giant has to say on it, possibly at Kraggor's gate. Until then it's fun to speculate.

[Bohandas]

Oh. I didn't know that. Thank you.

In fact I haven't read most of Rich's statements.

Actually I think it's explicitly said in-comic during the sequence where Belkar is tripping out

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually I think it's explicitly said in-comic during the sequence where Belkar is tripping out

Indeed, but of course the problem is indeed that it's Belkar while he is tripping out. I think it is authoritative, but it'd be hard to convince someone of it that isn't already on board.

GW

[Kish]

The available evidence demonstrates that The Snarl is de facto DM.

Actually, in (nearly*) every case I can think of "the gods" are described as creating the campaign world.

You're drawing a distinction between the Snarl actually doing it (and incidentally, even that the Snarl created the world in the rift, which would mean it created one world and the gods created two, is an assumption, not something established) and the gods being stated in the setting documents to have done it...but that makes no sense. If you look at the in-comic level the Snarl is at most equal to the gods in terms of having created a world. If you look at the meta level, the level on which the DM creates a campaign world, the creator of the worlds inside and outside the rift is Rich Burlew. In neither case is the Snarl any sort of parallel to the DM. I get that you're very impressed with your own scenario-spinning, but that doesn't make it logic.

*In Ravenloft it's "the Dark Powers." Dark Sun may be the only system in which it's left truly unstated, I'm not sure.

[brian 333]

Actually, in (nearly*) every case I can think of "the gods" are described as creating the campaign world.

You're drawing a distinction between the Snarl actually doing it (and incidentally, even that the Snarl created the world in the rift, which would mean it created one world and the gods created two, is an assumption, not something established) and the gods being stated in the setting documents to have done it...but that makes no sense. If you look at the in-comic level the Snarl is at most equal to the gods in terms of having created a world. If you look at the meta level, the level on which the DM creates a campaign world, the creator of the worlds inside and outside the rift is Rich Burlew. In neither case is the Snarl any sort of parallel to the DM. I get that you're very impressed with your own scenario-spinning, but that doesn't make it logic.

*In Ravenloft it's "the Dark Powers." Dark Sun may be the only system in which it's left truly unstated, I'm not sure.

You too are basing your conclusions on assumptions.

For example, you state that The Snarl is at best the equal of the gods. Okay, then explain how it eradicated an entire pantheon and all its cultural influences from the campaign, eradicated an entire continent, and failed to even accidentally kill off even one minor deity from the other pantheons. This is a level of power which exceeds all the combined power of all the gods.

Let's see, one fourth of the world destroyed versus... what did the combined power of three surving pantheons actually accomplish? This is not a victory for The Gods because as we see The Snarl is just as active as before, and the gods, rather than take it on and drive it out, send some PCs to build gates.

There is no equality, or even equivalence, of power. The Snarl is so powerful the gods know they can't even annoy it, much less harm it. What entity in D&D has more power than four pantheons of gods?

Now you say the gods created two worlds. What evidence is there for this? They assert it, but offer no proof. While not every setting has a creation myth, many do. These myths have the gods doing all sorts of things, but in the end it's just a matter of the DM decreeing this or that. Being created with the memory of being a creator is normal for D&D gods.

But we all know a DM created them or imported them into his campaign world. They are, after all, passive in their 'creativity'.

I assert that The Snarl is DM and Creator of the OotSverse, including the world we see in comic, and five other worlds beyond the five rifts. Just coincidentally, there are 6 versions of D&D:

D&D
AD&D
AD&D 2nd ed.
D&D 3.0 + 3.5
D&D 4.0
D&D 5.0

We saw the revision to 3.5 happen in comic.

[Razade]

I hope one of you two necros this thread and acknowledges it, when the other is ultimately proven correct.

I mean, I think the counter to his point is already clear but sure. I'll absolutely do it when and if the time comes.

Razade, what can I say?

Your position is that I am wrong. You say that, but you don't prove it.

What...do you call the wall of text? You have literally nothing to say to any of that? You just want to move on and dismiss it as "not proving you wrong"? I think that's shockingly dishonest of you.

Instead of a wall of text, let's start with one issue: I claimed that The Snarl used powers reserved to the DM.

Oh, it's because I used too many words to show how you're wrong. But let's just go with your assertion all over again.

1) In D&D a world is always created from outside that world. The physics of Fantasy RPG worlds requires this as it requires dice rolls. Therefore Stickverse must have a DM. (The DM need not be a real world human.)

Question 1: What entity reaches into the setting from outside?

The answer is "not the Snarl". Because the Snarl is, literally, inside the setting. Like. Physically and metaphysically. Inside the setting. It's encased in the Campaign World. By the Gods. So that's answer One.

2) In D&D there is exactly one "player" (for lack of a better word,) with the ability to alter the campaign map and the available pantheons. We call this player the DM.

Wrong? Wrong. A D&D game can have more than one DM. One is the minimum number. Not the maximum number. So...your premise is wrong from the get go. Let's see where you go from there.

Question 2: What entity has altered the game map and available pantheons?

The...Gods. The Gods did it. The Snarl killed the Olympians and destroyed the planet but the Gods are the ones that altered the world by remaking it and are in the process of debating remaking it again. Destroying the world. Again. And remaking it. A third time. So...the answer is once again "Not the Snarl".

Question 2a: Would a random entity of destruction be capable of exercising such fine control that the entire Olympian influence was eradicated without even singing Rabbit's whiskers?

The answer to this is no, a being of destruction wouldn't. Which makes sense, because the Snarl only killed the Olympians while the other Gods fled. The Gods themeslves wiped out any evidence of the Olympians.

3) I have read assertions that the gods defeated The Snarl. But we have only their word on that. Is it not equally likely that it accomplished what it wanted to do and left? The gods didn't create the rifts, and they cannot destroy them. The gates were built by 2nd ed. PCs, not by the gods. So the gods, other than having taken credit for driving it away, accomplished none of their goals, (saving the Olympians.) And we have their word on that.

Well....we don't just have their word for it. The Snarl is provably sealed away. That's a win.

How else, in your estimation, did the Snarl get sealed away? Or are you the only one allowed to ask the questions around here? Since you seem to want to dodge any and all others asked of you up to this point. Can you even answer one?

Question 3: Is it reasonable to assume the gods were victorious against a being they could not harm, or is it more reasonable to assume The Snarl accomplished its mission and went home?

The former because you would, for the latter, have to apply a motive to a being that you have no evidence has the ability to have a motive.

The question has been raised about the gods sealing out The Snarl, but at the end of Edition 2 we have The Order Of The Scribble building gates to keep it out. The gods were less than successful. The Snarl is not only active, but apparently came to the attention of The Order Of The Scribble because things (and people) were disappearing. The Why of this remains unexplained.

The Snarl doesn't seem to be active unless something provokes it from the other side. We haven't seen the Snarl going on a mission of destruction. Just smacking things that get to close. This is the inherent mystery of just what's going on and how much the Gods have lied. But they didn't lie about sealing the Snarl away. Because that's been proven.

Question 4: Other than the assertion of the gods, what evidence exists that demonstrates any effective restraint of The Snarl?

The rifts in the first place. Unless you want to suggest that the DM (The Snarl) is just making rifts for the hell of it and risk upsetting whatever motive it has to destroy the campaign world. A thing, as pointed out to you and you again have refused to acknowledge, the Gods are currently trying to do.

Oh. That's another bit of proof. The Gods want to destroy the World because the prison of the Snarl is growing weak. They want to remake the prison. Oh also the Dark One wanting to use the Snarl as a weapon or...if it can't do that, break the prison and force the Gods to remake the world with him at the Big Boy's seat. So that's..quite a lot of evidence. I expect you to ignore it all though since this whole response can't fit on the side of a post-it-note.

So, putting aside the reason the Snarl was imprisoned, we still know it was imprisoned.

The available evidence demonstrates that The Snarl is de facto DM.

What evidence? You haven't provided evidence, you've moved the goal posts and tried to shunt the burden of proof onto everyone else. Please provide some concrete evidence. Other than appeals to what you think a DM does. Like, in comic evidence. Please. Thank you.

Assertions are not evidence, or I'd have won those golden gloves back when I was 17. Cause I beat the snot out of that dude, and the judges gave him the bout on points.

Well you best start providing some evidence then! Because all you've said is that the Snarl is the De Facto DM and haven't backed it up with...literally any evidence.

Ball's in your court pal.

You too are basing your conclusions on assumptions.

Kish is actually using the comic to back up their claims. Something at least two of us are doing and spoiler alert, you aren't the second one.

For example, you state that The Snarl is at best the equal of the gods. Okay, then explain how it eradicated an entire pantheon and all its cultural influences from the campaign, eradicated an entire continent, and failed to even accidentally kill off even one minor deity from the other pantheons. This is a level of power which exceeds all the combined power of all the gods.

1. We're told how the Snarl killed the Gods. The Olympians (not called that in the comic btw) were killed in seconds because they didn't know the Snarl could do it. The other Gods FLED to the Divine Realm where...well we don't know if the Snarl couldn't reach them. It didn't reach them is all we know.

2. The Snarl didn't wipe out the Olympian culture from the map. We're not even sure they had a culture. But we do know they didn't get to put their stamp on the new world because they were dead. The Gods made the second world. The Gods hid the existance of another Pantheon. Not the Snarl.

3. The Snarl didn't destroy the Eastern Pantheon's continent. It destroyed the whole world. You're not even getting the actual story right at this point. Come on man. At least do that.

Let's see, one fourth of the world destroyed versus... what did the combined power of three surving pantheons actually accomplish? This is not a victory for The Gods because as we see The Snarl is just as active as before, and the gods, rather than take it on and drive it out, send some PCs to build gates.

Not one fourth of the world. The whole world, or so we're told. But what did the other pantheons accomplish? They made a whole new brand spanking second world fresh out of the box with all new creatures and peoples and whatever else you want to include. The Gods made...literally everything. Twice. The Snarl destroyed one world (just the Mortal World) once.

The Gods are also, if you'll recall, planning on destroying the world. Ya know. Like. That's the whole current story arc. So the Gods are going to remake the world. A third time. While the Snarl is still left with...one, maybe, world kill.

There is no equality, or even equivalence, of power. The Snarl is so powerful the gods know they can't even annoy it, much less harm it. What entity in D&D has more power than four pantheons of gods?

Well you're right about one thing. There's no equivalence. The Gods are stronger.

As to your second question...some Epic Monsters are stronger than pantheons of Gods. The Elemental Lords of Evil were at least more powerful than A God or two. The list is long.

Now you say the gods created two worlds. What evidence is there for this? They assert it, but offer no proof. While not every setting has a creation myth, many do. These myths have the gods doing all sorts of things, but in the end it's just a matter of the DM decreeing this or that. Being created with the memory of being a creator is normal for D&D gods.

Well, that there is a world the story is taking place and another beyond the rift is...a dubious start. The fact that the Dark One's whole plan hinges on it. Oh and the fact that the Gods have outright said in the comic itself that they're going to have to remake the world. Again. The AGAIN part is pretty key to the whole "there was at least one other world before the one we're in right now" argument.

I mean...if you REALLY want to go "Well the whole story is a lie" angle then what if the Snarl isn't real? Maybe it's something else beyond the Gate. Maybe the Snarl is just an excuse that the Gods have to keep uppity mortals from ascending. Who knows. If you want to call the entire story into question, it does more harm for you than it does help.

But we all know a DM created them or imported them into his campaign world. They are, after all, passive in their 'creativity'.

So there's evidence that the Snarl did this? That the Snarl brought the Gods into the game world? What is it then? Where can we find that?

I assert that The Snarl is DM and Creator of the OotSverse, including the world we see in comic, and five other worlds beyond the five rifts. Just coincidentally, there are 6 versions of D&D:

D&D
AD&D
AD&D 2nd ed.
D&D 3.0 + 3.5
D&D 4.0
D&D 5.0

So not only are you saying that you're asserting (not demonstrating) all of this but that there are actually more worlds that we haven't seen and that the Snarl has made all of them.

What's your proof. Where's the evidence of even one iota of this?

We saw the revision to 3.5 happen in comic.

And Rich has said he won't be updating to another version in comic because the story has moved beyond joke a day panel stories.

[Sm3gl]

So how many times has the world been destroyed by the Snarl?

Could the destroyed world's be original campaign settings under previous editions?

How do the OotS encounters with the gates coincide in real time with the release and existence of additional editions of D&D?
I'm thinking Durokans Gate was maybe a suggestion to convert to Pathfinder.
Azure City was 4th Edition. Desert gate 5th?

If theoretically Xykon had gained control of the gate would it have given him the opportunity to convert the current game world into a later edition with him having some influence in the conversion? (Allowing him to rule the world?)

It does seem pretty clear that the question of this campaign world is what sort of world the next campaign setting should be with different factions trying to influence the outcome. The Snarl wants a fresh start, Hel wants a more Ravenloft-esque setting, the Gods and PCs want to stick to the current setting/rules.

The really great thing is that it might not ever be explicitly stated which theory is correct, which is kind of the point of literary devices, it's just the interpretation of the consumer that gives an additional layer of meaning.