5e. Paladin / Bard Multiclass!

[Azgeroth]

Hello playgrounders!

so i've had this concept rattling around in my head for quite some time but i just cant peg down exactly how to build this character, though i do have the basic concept..

Half-elf, Paladin (ancients), Bard (Blades)

this is a Dexadin bard, roaming the land defending the weak and slaying evil, spinning tales of heroism and daring, dancing with swords to crowds as he would on the battlefield, a true inspiration to those around him.

stats im thinking of are, (standard array 15,14,13,12,10,8)

STR 8, DEX 15+1, CON 13+1, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 14+2


starting paladin,
skills, Persuasion, Religion.
Background (a variant on acolyte, incorporating some performances) Insight, Performance

then the hard choices, i want the bard aspects online quite early, so i may take 1st bard for 3rd level, keep going paladin till i get to 5th (6th level) then take 2 levels in bard, (5/3 (8th))

past that im really not sure where to take it.. opinions/ advice??

[Specter]

You need 13STR to multiclass in or out of Paladin.

[BobZan]

15+1
8
13+1
10
12
14+2

Lv 1 and 2 - Paladin - SMITE!
Pick Defense Fighting Style, for +1 AC.

Rest go Bard. Swords Bard will start doing its thing after Bard 5, because your Inspirations are d8 and short rest now. Bard 6 Extra Attack. Bard 7 4th lv spell. Bard 8 ASI. Bard 9 5th lv spell. Bard 10 Magical Secret.

[Azgeroth]

You need 13STR to multiclass in or out of Paladin.

really?? *checks PHB* dammit your right...

ok well that really rains on the parade.. i was hoping for a lithe elven two weapon fighter.. i guess its not to be without being really SAD.

so if not a half elf dexadin then, dragonborn palabard!

STR 13+2, Dex 12, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+1

could maybe do better with point buy... drop dex to 10, raise int to 10 ??

same general idea, but instead of a lithe half elf, its a large stocky, yet somewhat graceful, 2h dragonborn. (i know i could still do the two weapon fighting as a dragonborn, but it just doesn't gel in my mind)

following BobZan's idea..

lvl 1 pala
lvl 2 pala 2
lvl 3 + bard!

[BobZan]

2h you won't benefit from either Fighting Styles from Swords Bard. I'd suggest sword & board.

Heavy armor, shield and Defense Fight style, you'll start with 19 AC.

Let me suggest another alternative. Very strong aswell.

Paladin 1
V. Human-> Resilient Cons
Defense Fighting Style

15+1
8
13+1
10
10
15+1

Paladin 2

Bard rest. (Dueling Fighting Style)

If you want spell ideas, you can check this thread I've done (Hexblade 2/Swords Bard): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...her-Gish-Build

[Azgeroth]

2h you won't benefit from either Fighting Styles from Swords Bard. I'd suggest sword & board.

Heavy armor, shield and Defense Fight style, you'll start with 19 AC.

Let me suggest another alternative. Very strong aswell.

Paladin 1
V. Human-> Resilient Cons
Defense Fighting Style

15+1
8
13+1
10
10
15+1

Paladin 2

Bard rest. (Dueling Fighting Style)

If you want spell ideas, you can check this thread I've done (Hexblade 2/Swords Bard): http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...her-Gish-Build

dont Vhumans get 2 x +1 and a feat, not 3 +1s?

ok no 2h, thats fine by me. sword and board works.

[BobZan]

dont Vhumans get 2 x +1 and a feat, not 3 +1s?

ok no 2h, thats fine by me. sword and board works.

Yes, and Resilient Feat gives you +1 and proficiency in an attribute. I picked Constitution in that case.

[Arkhios]

Disclaimer: When I started writing this post, there were no other posts, so bear with possible repetition.

Ah, my absolute favorite multiclass concept in 5th edition.

Though I must say that I don't particularly agree with the choice of College (unless you don't take more than 5 levels in bard, which would be fine).

Here's why:

Extra Attack class features from multiple classes don't stack, but they do overlap. You don't get any more attacks from another Extra Attack (as a Paladin 5/Bard 6, for example), unless you have 11 levels in Fighter, because their class features specifically add a third attack to the Attack Action at 11th class level.

While I can see why College of Swords is a tempting choice, College of Lore with Cutting Words is, in my opinion, slightly better. On its own, paladin has very little uses for their reactions, and Cutting Words lends itself really well to defending your allies. Plus, if you feel after 5 bard levels that you want more bard, less paladin, your 6th level feature wouldn't go to waste.

From the Paladin side, you'll definitely want Aura of Protection, which comes at 6th level (thus, getting Extra Attack on the way), and because you've decided to take Oath of the Ancients (a fine choice), you will also want 7th level in paladin. And 8th, because at 7th level you're only one level from next ASI. And 9th level, because 3rd level paladin spells (all of them, not just two) are amazingly good!

Also, as a Bard, you want high charisma to be able to use Bardic Inspiration as often as possible, which is why you also want at least 5 levels in bard, because at that level your Bardic Inspiration refresh at short rest instead of long rest.

At the very minimum I would recommend aiming for Paladin 7/Bard 5, but I would prefer at least Paladin 9/Bard5 before further plans.

As for your ability scores, you can't multiclass in or out of paladin if you don't have at least 13 in strength, unfortunately.
Thus, with your chosen race, I would recommend this instead:

Str 13, Dex 15+1, Con 12+1, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14+2

To keep your concentration spells (those are the best ones) going for as long as possible you'll want a good chance at succeeding with Constitution saves and so you'll want to take Resilient (Constitution +1) at some point; preferably sooner than later). While War Caster is another option, you didn't specify (in your original post) whether you wish to take dueling or two-weapon fighting as your fighting style from swords bard. I'm going to assume I assumed Dueling from the way you described the character being daring (leaving your off hand free, presumably, which I would do if I were you - because it would be cool albeit perhaps not the most optimal). Since you, presumably, have your off-hand free, War Caster wouldn't be necessary.

Because you need str 13 only for multiclassing, you don't need to increase it beyond 13. What you'll want, though, is definitely increase your Charisma to 20 as well as your Dexterity at least 18 (preferably to 20 as well). This will leave you one ASI to spend for Resilient if you end up with something like paladin 11/Bard 9 (which I would go for), or two ASI if you would rather end up with Paladin 12/Bard 8 (or Paladin 8/Bard 12).

Alternatively, since you pointed out at a later post that you'd want two-weapon fighting style, put your second +1 from half-elf into strength so that your stats are:
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16
And then take War Caster instead of Resilient. Your Paladin Hit Die keeps you fairly safe from dying too early, and Charisma 20 helps you to mitigate the small lack of constitution without proficiency. A base paladin is normally suggested to have Con 14, so the change to your maximum hit point value isn't that huge, and without resilient, base paladin would only be 1 point ahead in Con saves anyway. Not that big of a deal, imho.

Two-Weapon Fighting paladin is super good in terms of damage output, because it adds a third chance per round to land a smite, plus you should definitely keep Divine Favor up as often as possible.
This is also why I would recommend taking paladin up to 11th level. Improved Divine Smite adds 1d8 radiant damage to all your melee weapon attacks that hit, including your off-hand attacks.

[Azgeroth]

Disclaimer: When I started writing this post, there were no other posts, so bear with possible repetition.

Ah, my absolute favorite multiclass concept in 5th edition.

Though I must say that I don't particularly agree with the choice of College (unless you don't take more than 5 levels in bard, which would be fine).

Here's why:

Extra Attack class features from multiple classes don't stack, but they do overlap. You don't get any more attacks from another Extra Attack (as a Paladin 5/Bard 6, for example), unless you have 11 levels in Fighter, because their class features specifically add a third attack to the Attack Action at 11th class level.

While I can see why College of Swords is a tempting choice, College of Lore with Cutting Words is, in my opinion, slightly better. On its own, paladin has very little uses for their reactions, and Cutting Words lends itself really well to defending your allies. Plus, if you feel after 5 bard levels that you want more bard, less paladin, your 6th level feature wouldn't go to waste.

From the Paladin side, you'll definitely want Aura of Protection, which comes at 6th level (thus, getting Extra Attack on the way), and because you've decided to take Oath of the Ancients (a fine choice), you will also want 7th level in paladin. And 8th, because at 7th level you're only one level from next ASI. And 9th level, because 3rd level paladin spells (all of them, not just two) are amazingly good!

Also, as a Bard, you want high charisma to be able to use Bardic Inspiration as often as possible, which is why you also want at least 5 levels in bard, because at that level your Bardic Inspiration refresh at short rest instead of long rest.

At the very minimum I would recommend aiming for Paladin 7/Bard 5, but I would prefer at least Paladin 9/Bard5 before further plans.

As for your ability scores, you can't multiclass in or out of paladin if you don't have at least 13 in strength, unfortunately.
Thus, with your chosen race, I would recommend this instead:

Str 13, Dex 15+1, Con 12+1, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14+2

To keep your concentration spells (those are the best ones) going for as long as possible you'll want a good chance at succeeding with Constitution saves and so you'll want to take Resilient (Constitution +1) at some point; preferably sooner than later). While War Caster is another option, you didn't specify (in your original post) whether you wish to take dueling or two-weapon fighting as your fighting style from swords bard. I'm going to assume I assumed Dueling from the way you described the character being daring (leaving your off hand free, presumably, which I would do if I were you - because it would be cool albeit perhaps not the most optimal). Since you, presumably, have your off-hand free, War Caster wouldn't be necessary.

Because you need str 13 only for multiclassing, you don't need to increase it beyond 13. What you'll want, though, is definitely increase your Charisma to 20 as well as your Dexterity at least 18 (preferably to 20 as well). This will leave you one ASI to spend for Resilient if you end up with something like paladin 11/Bard 9 (which I would go for), or two ASI if you would rather end up with Paladin 12/Bard 8 (or Paladin 8/Bard 12).

Alternatively, since you pointed out at a later post that you'd want two-weapon fighting style, put your second +1 from half-elf into strength so that your stats are:
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16
And then take War Caster instead of Resilient. Your Paladin Hit Die keeps you fairly safe from dying too early, and Charisma 20 helps you to mitigate the small lack of constitution without proficiency. A base paladin is normally suggested to have Con 14, so the change to your maximum hit point value isn't that huge, and without resilient, base paladin would only be 1 point ahead in Con saves anyway. Not that big of a deal, imho.

Two-Weapon Fighting paladin is super good in terms of damage output, because it adds a third chance per round to land a smite, plus you should definitely keep Divine Favor up as often as possible.
This is also why I would recommend taking paladin up to 11th level. Improved Divine Smite adds 1d8 radiant damage to all your melee weapon attacks that hit, including your off-hand attacks.

you sir, are a gentlemen, and a scholar..

thankyou for saving my half elf dancing champion of the down trodden.

yes i did realise that taking swords college would mean (non)stacking extra attack, and this is one of the issue's... i chose that college because i felt the theme of it fits with the character concept, and the 'flourishes' are in keeping with that theme, and if i remember rightly (AFB ATM) dont you use CHA for attack/damage rolls??

so the 2 level dip for smite is a solid option, but as you point out im not getting the lvl 7 aura, or improved smite, or other paladin spells, unless i take them with magical secrets (but again, as swords thats not untill 10th level bard, 12th total, and only 2 spells!)
but that does give me more, and higher level, slots for good ol' smiting! as opposed to more paladin levels to get the sweet aura, and rather nice oath spells, and get my inspiration dice back on SR..

my biggest consideration though, is the campaign is likely to end at 14-16, so deeper dips are really not super viable, as im not willing to spend half the campaign building a character ill only get to play for the second half..

[Arkhios]

No, Swords Bard doesn't attack with Charisma. That would be the Hexblade Warlock. However, a 3rd level swords bard can use any weapon they are proficient with as their spellcasting focus for their bard spells.

It's worth noting that you won't get any further mileage from 5th+ level spell slots in terms of smiting, and even though you can reach higher level slots faster with bard levels, you still won't have any more of slots of individual levels from 1st to 5th as a full paladin would have. Every caster caps their spell slots per level to the same end result.

With Paladin 9/Bard 5 you would already be at the same power level as a 17-18th level paladin would be, in terms to spell slots available:
4 x 1st-level slots
3 x 2nd-level slots
3 x 3rd-level slots
3 x 4th-level slots
1 x 5th-level slots
...with only one more 5th-level slot, that list remains the same even for a 20th level bard.

But as noted, Divine Smite caps at 5d8 extra damage with 4th-level slots (not including the extra 1d8 if the target is a fiend or undead) so in that regard you won't get much from spell slots higher than 4th. Spells known matter more, and as said most 3rd level paladin spells are simply awesome.

[DarkKnightJin]

The problem with a Paladin and Bard multiclass..
Each class has wonderful goodies you'll wanna pick up.
Sure, a level of Warlock or Sorcerer is easy for a Pally or a Bard. But combining the 2 just doesn't add as much.

I've thought about a PalaBard as well. And i came to the conclusion that each class has too much going for it on their own chassis to try and work it in. And still be able to enjoy the product you get for any significant amount in of time.

This would be lessened if starting at a higher level, so the build is at least Semi-Online already.

[BobZan]

A Paladin 2 that want to mix some arcane Cha-based caster is good to go after lv 2. You have to know what you'll be skipping, but you can do a very good character this way.

If you want a full martial character, this is not the road, because you'll delay the lv 5-7 power spike. Paladin is good on its own, that's true, but if you want something different, you can delay extra attack and forgo the defensive auras for some cool features.

Let's talk about Swords Bard:

Swords increase your spell versatility and the amount of slots you'll have early on. It's true that smite slots cap, but higher level spells are awesome.

After Bard 5 you'll be able to Smite and Flourish 'all day' (+5d8 dmg + 1d8 to AC with 3rd lv spell), for increased damage AND AC, so you'll be able to get some defensive return that you'll skip in Paladin (not the same defenses, but you got what I mean). Bard 6 you'll get Extra Attack.

The only level you'll really feel underpowered will be Lv 5 Pala 2 / Bard 3. Lv 6 you'll get ahead on spellcasting already and lv 7+ you'll be fully connected.

I already played Pala 2/Bard x (Valor), it's very good, outshined many core builds during the course of the campaign because you can either nova burst (flourish increased this), sustain damage (dueling increased this) or control. And you're durable due to good AC (now even better with defense+dueling FS and flourish) and healing spells.

Cool hint, I went S&B with Polearm Master using a Quarterstaff, that fills the gap of your bonus actions and qualifies for Dueling FS.

[Azgeroth]

pala 9 bard 5 works well, saves doubling up on extra attack, get my insp. dice on SR, get the 'flourishes' and all the slots for smite as well as some bardic control..

so, 1st and 2nd lvl are pala, take defensive fighting style.

3rd is bard 1, get those insp dice!

4th, 5th, and 6th are all pala, which is pala 3, 4, 5. oath,channel div, some oath spells, ASI(+2cha), EXTRA ATTACK

7th, 8th,9th,10th bard 2,3,4,5 song of rest, expertise, fighting style, flourishes, ASI(+2 Cha/Res. Con?), font of insp(insp dice d8's).

so at lvl 10.. (pala 5, bard 5)
STR 13, DEX 16, *CON 14, INT 8, *WIS 10, *CHA 18 *save proficiency

half plate(hopefully)AC 15+2+1=18
dual schims, +7 to attack, +3 damage. +8 Spell Attack, DC 16

Skills

Athletics
Insight*
Persuasion*
Performance
Religion

Fighting styles
Defensive
Two Weapon Fighting

Channel divinity, 1 per SR
Nature's Wrath
Turn the Faithless

Extra Attack

Song of Rest

Jack of all Trades

Expertise*

4 Insp dice (d8) per SR

Flourishes

1st lvl slots 4
2nd lvl slots 3
3rd lvl slots 3
4th lvl slots 1

paladin spells, 6 spells, level 1 or 2
+ 1st lvl, Ensaring Strike, Speak with Animals
+ 2nd lvl, Moon Beam, Misty Step

Bard Spells, 8 spells, level 1, 2 or 3


what do we think??

[BobZan]

For Two Weapon Fighting I'd suggest:

Half elf (base 15 8 14 10 10 14)

After racial

16
8
15
10
10
16

or

V. Human (base 15 8 13 10 10 15)
Resilient Con or Dual Wielder (+1 AC and 2 non-light weapons)

After racial

16
8
13
10
10
16

Use a Heavy Armor, reduces the MADness of the build. The progression is ok. I'd go Paladin 6, you're one level away from one of the best class features in the game. It's worth.

For ASI's CHA or STR. CHA for more spell power, aura & inspiration. STR for + atk/dmg.

[ZorroGames]

OP, have you read PeteNutButter’s MC thread? There is a section on Bard and Paldins that may be generally helpful.

[Azgeroth]

i had totally forgotten, that i had until you mentioned it. i will go re-read, thankyou