Altered Carbon

[Anonymouswizard]

So I just saw the advert for the series, and I saw a poster for it yesterday (loving the tagline, took a while to work it out but it fits perfectly).

I'm personally unsure of whether or not it's going to be worthwhile. I've read the book, although neither of the sequels so far, and adored it and the exploration of a society that has (mostly) embraced the idea that you are your consciousness and memories rather than your body. Whether or not that's true in any meaningful way, it's still an interesting idea to explore.

I'm just worried that without the first person narration the exposition is going to be clunky, especially when it comes to such things as cortical stacks and resleeving.

I don't have Netflix, although if this turns out to be good I might get it to watch it along with some of the other original series that have been interesting (nothing's quite convinced me yet, but there's been a lot of 'when I get it').

So, anybody got any thoughts?

[Narkis]

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I loved the book and hope they do a good job adapting it. Some parts will be difficult for TV, but we'll see.

Though I heard they got Game of Throne's best director for the series, so they should be covered in that regard.

[thethird]

Last year I had a chance to meet and talk with the author, and he had hopes for the show. While I doubtfully will enjoy it as much as the book I am pretty excited with it.

[Cespenar]

What, a cyberpunk TV show that has a potential? I wonder how they got it past any executives.

Sorry, I'm still not over the cancellation of Almost Human.

[Anonymouswizard]

What, a cyberpunk TV show that has a potential? I wonder how they got it past any executives.

Sorry, I'm still not over the cancellation of Almost Human.

Oh don't worry, I'm bitter over that as well. It was an amazing show, and we were just getting hints at a more developed world when it was cancelled. Surprisingly good depiction of AI though, with multiple types that varied based on programming and hardware.

But established fanbase, and I suspect just going for the first story of three to see how it pans out helped. Also the fact it's on a streaming service, which seem to be willing to take some more risks. It's either going to go relatively well, or it'll make one change to many and there'll be a lot of annoyed fans.


As a side note, I was kind of hoping they'd race lift the sleeve Takeshi Kovacs uses for the story. The person it originally belonged to doesn't appear, and their race doesn't really add anything to the story, so it seemed like a great chance to avoid the 'male white action hero' cliche.

[The Glyphstone]

I had no idea this was a thing, and I really want it to be good.

[LibraryOgre]

They're going to have to do a lot more scaffolding than Morgan tends to... he builds his world incrementally through the book, which can be a big leap.

[FreddyNoNose]

What, a cyberpunk TV show that has a potential? I wonder how they got it past any executives.

Sorry, I'm still not over the cancellation of Almost Human.

I liked Almost Human but they had a problem with scripting.

[Cespenar]

Oh don't worry, I'm bitter over that as well. It was an amazing show, and we were just getting hints at a more developed world when it was cancelled. Surprisingly good depiction of AI though, with multiple types that varied based on programming and hardware.

But established fanbase, and I suspect just going for the first story of three to see how it pans out helped. Also the fact it's on a streaming service, which seem to be willing to take some more risks. It's either going to go relatively well, or it'll make one change to many and there'll be a lot of annoyed fans.

I'll be keeping an eye out then.

[S@tanicoaldo]

It looks fun, but it may be too dark and edgy for my tastes right now.

[gomipile]

I've started watching it. I'm four episodes in, and I like it quite a lot so far.

It has science fiction ideas and situations in it that I haven't seen on screen before in this context, but have wanted to for a long time. Things that remind me of notes and beats from Neal Stephenson, William Gibson, Peter F. Hamilton, Iain M Banks, and others' works.

I've never read Richard K. Morgan's books, so I can't say how faithful it is to those, but so far this series does justice to a style of storytelling I appreciate very much in print.


Also, I hope everyone in this thread uses spoiler tags appropriately. I got annoyed by a few threads here in the past couple years where several people choose to just not use spoiler tags for whatever reasons.

[gomipile]

I have a question for anyone who has read the book(s.) Does ONI stand for something? I assume it's something like (a word that starts with O) Neural Interface?

[rooster707]

I have a question for anyone who has read the book(s.) Does ONI stand for something? I assume it's something like (a word that starts with O) Neural Interface?

Hmm. I read the books last year, and I don’t remember that being a thing at all. I might just be forgetting, though.

[Eldan]

Don't recall. It occasionally tosses a lot of jargon around, but i don't recall that one.

[gomipile]

ONI appears to refer to the computer interface that lets everyone see augmented reality displays, access information, read emails, engage in digital voice communications, etc. Something like the "e-butlers," computer inserts, and organic circuitry tattoos in Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth, and similar mind machine interfaces in other fiction.

I got that from context, but I want to know what the letters stand for, if anything. It's all caps "ONI" in the subtitles, so I assume it's an acronym.

[The Glyphstone]

Organic Network Interface?

[Anonymouswizard]

Now it's out I've dine some research, and am dismayed by the changes I've heard about.

Spoiler

Show

The big one that annoys me is the stuff I've heard about inverting Kovacs's views. One of the great thing about the book was his pro-resleeving stance, it was actually rather nuanced (his problem with Cs seemed to be more that the convinced other people to reject resleeving, rather than their choice not to use it). I get that they changed the Envoys as well, as the book versions were specifically chosen and trained to be usable as special forces in whatever body they could get, but apparently they're now anti-resleeving terrorists. Sure, Kovacs was essentially angry at everything, but he was still a man of the society the book took place in.

It's sad, because I enjoyed the book's climax with the two Kovacs sleeved into different bodies, and the changes mean it's unlikely to happen.

What's so wrong about a protagonist who's pro-immortality? Okay, resleeving is questionably immortality, but it was an interesting bit and there's already a lot of anti-immortality media.

It makes me worried for any adaption of books like Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth Saga, where rejuvenation and cloning means that everybody gets to enjoy coming back in a body like their old one.

I'm not even certain if I want to watch the series anymore, they took one of my favourite protagonists and changed his beliefs.

[gomipile]

Now it's out I've dine some research, and am dismayed by the changes I've heard about.

Spoiler

Show

The big one that annoys me is the stuff I've heard about inverting Kovacs's views. One of the great thing about the book was his pro-resleeving stance, it was actually rather nuanced (his problem with Cs seemed to be more that the convinced other people to reject resleeving, rather than their choice not to use it). I get that they changed the Envoys as well, as the book versions were specifically chosen and trained to be usable as special forces in whatever body they could get, but apparently they're now anti-resleeving terrorists. Sure, Kovacs was essentially angry at everything, but he was still a man of the society the book took place in.

It's sad, because I enjoyed the book's climax with the two Kovacs sleeved into different bodies, and the changes mean it's unlikely to happen.

What's so wrong about a protagonist who's pro-immortality? Okay, resleeving is questionably immortality, but it was an interesting bit and there's already a lot of anti-immortality media.

It makes me worried for any adaption of books like Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth Saga, where rejuvenation and cloning means that everybody gets to enjoy coming back in a body like their old one.

I'm not even certain if I want to watch the series anymore, they took one of my favourite protagonists and changed his beliefs.

I've watched the entire season now, and I think you should still watch it.

Spoiler

Show

The change you're worried about is more nuanced than it was made out to be by whatever source you heard it from.

[Feytalist]

Probably my favourite book series. I knew about the Netflix series but I had no idea it was out already. Guess I'm watching it this week.

Morgan likes to show, not tell in his books. I hope the series follows that trend and doesn't infodump everything all at once.


ONI isn't anything from the books. I guess that they had to give a name to all the neurochem and whatnot that was present in the books, but never really explained.

Oh: here is Morgan's blog post on the series.

[Eldan]

Saw half of the first episode, had to switch off. Thought everything was REALLY clunky. Lots of dialogue that isn't in the book. Some really terrible exposition. Actually, all the dialogue and especially the narrator felt really badly written and unnecessary.

And apparently, Kovacs is Daredevil now?

[Feytalist]

Saw half of the first episode, had to switch off. Thought everything was REALLY clunky. Lots of dialogue that isn't in the book. Some really terrible exposition. Actually, all the dialogue and especially the narrator felt really badly written and unnecessary.

And apparently, Kovacs is Daredevil now?

Watched the first 3 episodes. So far, it's okay. They haven't messed with the actual story too much yet, and the changes I've noticed - while annoying - doesn't change the overall theme too much. Visually its pretty awesome tho.

The books make some mention of Kovacs having enhanced proximity sense thanks to his Envoy training. I guess sonar-vision isn't the worst way to visualise that.

I'm also fine with some exposition - again, remember that the novels have some sort of third person narration. You have to explain stacks and meths and Proposition Whatever somehow. Having it in dialogue is acceptable to me. But yeah, some of it isn't great.


My two main petty annoyances:
First, everyone is pronouncing his name correctly. The book takes great pains to mention that only like 2 people can say it properly, everyone else uses the hard "c".
And second, no "pull on new flesh" poem. That was like, the most glaring omission yet :/

[Eldan]

There were a lot of small details that annoyed me, though. Too much for me to really enjoy it. Like, apparently Envoys are super-ancient and rare now and Kovacs is the last one? Whu?

[Anonymouswizard]

There were a lot of small details that annoyed me, though. Too much for me to really enjoy it. Like, apparently Envoys are super-ancient and rare now and Kovacs is the last one? Whu?

But aren't Envoy like a (relatively) modern part of the UN forces in the book? Trained to be skilled soldiers no matter what body they're in, because when sent into a world that doesn't like the UN they'd be unlikely to get augmented sleeves?

But everything I've heard since it went online has only made me dread it more.

[Feytalist]

Yeah, the Envoy change is one of the most jarring. But all in all, it doesn't change the actual plot all that much.

Anyway, you find out pretty soon that Kovacs was a super-secret black ops kinda guy for the UN before he was an Envoy, so it all circles back to the same place anyway. Which makes the change not so impactful, just... puzzling.


Honestly, though, the series (what I've seen of it, anyway) has enough of the books that you'll be able to enjoy it. The casting and writing are a bit all over over the place, but mostly good. The visuals and production however is really great. Might be worth it to check out at least the first episode.

[Cespenar]

From someone that haven't read the books, the show looks pretty okay. It's not top tier, but we hardly get any cyberpunk series anyway, so I can't really complain.

[gomipile]

I finished watching it. I enjoyed it quite a bit. I think it's the first live action fiction I've watched that really feels like I imagined the cyberpunk stories I read back in the 80s and 90s.

[Clertar]

Giving Ortega more of a role was a great decision. What an actress and what a fresh dynamic between her and Kovac.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Giving Ortega more of a role was a great decision. What an actress and what a fresh dynamic between her and Kovac.

I honestly felt she was the least interesting character. Her family I loved - her grandma specially, but also her mom & her partner. I think I'm just jaded to the whole "lose canon policeman" archetype. Especially in a dystopia - every time she survived one of her "I'm going at this on my own" moment, my suspension of disbelief got just a tiny more stretched, and it eventually broke about halfway through the season. After that, I just couldn't care, although I did like what they did with her bionic arm.

My MVP has to be Ava Elliot, with Poe a close second. Every scene one of them was in was a scene I enjoyed watching.

Grey Wolf

[Clertar]

I understand the criticism, but I don't get it. Why is she acting like that? Her boyfriend and police partner was frozen and his body was given as a sleeve to the main character, who's a 200-year-old terrorist. She's a well-written version of the archetype you mention, which boils down to a character having conflict with the protagonist in a drama series. The fact she's a cop I would attribute to the police side of the noir/detective genre.

[Malimar]

Just watched ep5.

Spoiler

Show

Ortega, firmly grasping the idiot ball, made the dumbest possible decision (spinning up a powerful assassin-murderer-dude into a real sleeve), and it got her stabbed (which is fine, she deserved it for such a moronic call) and it got the cool beardy guy perma-killed. I liked the beardy guy. He had a good beard.

So I'm probably going to watch more soon but right now I'm grumpy at it.