What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

[Lord]

So I had a thought.
Shortly before the fall of Azure City there is a scene where the Order has the Linear Guild dead to rights. Pompey and Leeky have deserted, Yokyok is dead, and Nale, Thog, and Sabine are all tied up and defeated.
The order considers killing Nale and co, but decides against on the grounds that they might get rezzed and go back to attacking them. Now it occured to me that if they had destroyed Nale and Thog’s body with a desintegrate spell they could have more or less permenantly put a halt to them. Also depending on the rules of the OOTS verse, killing Sabine might banish her back to the lower planes for quite some time, or even destroy her outright.
So let’s say that in a hypothetical alternate universe the order just flat out murders Thog and Nale so they won’t be a threat anymore, and kill Sabine, banishing her back to the abyss for however long outsiders are banished after being killed.
What changes?
Right off the bat it occurs to me that Miko might never go nuts. Shojo only is overheard revealing his true colors because Roy points out that O’chul isn’t okay with indefinitely imprisoning Nale and co. Since Nale and co are dead and out of the prison, that isn’t a factor anymore.
I assume that Miko would make a bunch of accusations against Roy, but wouldn’t be driven to the point of attacking him. Shojo I think would probably be able to get her to back off, which means Miko would be involved in the battle for Azure City. Also Xykon and Redcloak in this continuity never find out where the gate is located, or so I think. Azure city doesn’t have the same drop in morale either. The nobles also won’t be able to ditch Shojo like they did Hinjo, so they will also be stronger.
The way I see it the chances of Azure City holding out are much, much higher. At the very least the hobgoblins will pay a much higher price for their assault.
Assuming things get to the point of the Empire of Blood Arc the fiends will need a new pawn. My guess is that a vengeful Sabine would tell Tarquin and co about the gates. However Tarquin isn’t anywhere near as easily manipulated as Nale. However I imagine that he might change his preconceived notion of himself as tyrant the good guys have to overthrow, to chessmaster who outgambits the forces of hell for his own gain.
Also, if Xykon was indeed defeated at Azure City, it might not be the end of Xykon and Redcloak's plans. They might simply go looking for Girards gate since Azure City is now inaccessible, assuming they survived. Which is likely, since they would not have known about the gates' location.
Anyway this is all just theory. What do you think?

[littlebum2002]

So I had a thought.
Shortly before the fall of Azure City there is a scene where the Order has the Linear Guild dead to rights. Pompey and Leeky have deserted, Yokyok is dead, and Nale, Thog, and Sabine are all tied up and defeated.
The order considers killing Nale and co, but decides against on the grounds that they might get rezzed and go back to attacking them. Now it occured to me that if they had destroyed Nale and Thog’s body with a desintegrate spell they could have more or less permenantly put a halt to them. Also depending on the rules of the OOTS verse, killing Sabine might banish her back to the lower planes for quite some time, or even destroy her outright.
So let’s say that in a hypothetical alternate universe the order just flat out murders Thog and Nale so they won’t be a threat anymore, and kill Sabine, banishing her back to the abyss for however long outsiders are banished after being killed.
What changes?
Right off the bat it occurs to me that Miko might never go nuts. Shojo only is overheard revealing his true colors because Roy points out that O’chul isn’t okay with indefinitely imprisoning Nale and co. Since Nale and co are dead and out of the prison, that isn’t a factor anymore.
I assume that Miko would make a bunch of accusations against Roy, but wouldn’t be driven to the point of attacking him. Shojo I think would probably be able to get her to back off, which means Miko would be involved in the battle for Azure City. Also Xykon and Redcloak in this continuity never find out where the gate is located, or so I think. Azure city doesn’t have the same drop in morale either. The nobles also won’t be able to ditch Shojo like they did Hinjo, so they will also be stronger.
The way I see it the chances of Azure City holding out are much, much higher. At the very least the hobgoblins will pay a much higher price for their assault.
Assuming things get to the point of the Empire of Blood Arc the fiends will need a new pawn. My guess is that a vengeful Sabine would tell Tarquin and co about the gates. However Tarquin isn’t anywhere near as easily manipulated as Nale. However I imagine that he might change his preconceived notion of himself as tyrant the good guys have to overthrow, to chessmaster who outgambits the forces of hell for his own gain.
Also, if Xykon was indeed defeated at Azure City, it might not be the end of Xykon and Redcloak's plans. They might simply go looking for Girards gate since Azure City is now inaccessible, assuming they survived. Which is likely, since they would not have known about the gates' location.
Anyway this is all just theory. What do you think?

A lot of what you are saying about the Battle of Azure City is true, but remember: once Redcloak makes the decision to send the horde through the hole in the wall, there's not much anyone could have done to stop them, even with Miko and the nobles in the battle. Like you said, I think the best case scenario is that more hobgoblins die before they take the city.

[eilandesq]

So I had a thought.
Shortly before the fall of Azure City there is a scene where the Order has the Linear Guild dead to rights. Pompey and Leeky have deserted, Yokyok is dead, and Nale, Thog, and Sabine are all tied up and defeated.
The order considers killing Nale and co, but decides against on the grounds that they might get rezzed and go back to attacking them. Now it occured to me that if they had destroyed Nale and Thog’s body with a desintegrate spell they could have more or less permenantly put a halt to them. Also depending on the rules of the OOTS verse, killing Sabine might banish her back to the lower planes for quite some time, or even destroy her outright.
So let’s say that in a hypothetical alternate universe the order just flat out murders Thog and Nale so they won’t be a threat anymore, and kill Sabine, banishing her back to the abyss for however long outsiders are banished after being killed.
What changes?
Right off the bat it occurs to me that Miko might never go nuts. Shojo only is overheard revealing his true colors because Roy points out that O’chul isn’t okay with indefinitely imprisoning Nale and co. Since Nale and co are dead and out of the prison, that isn’t a factor anymore.
I assume that Miko would make a bunch of accusations against Roy, but wouldn’t be driven to the point of attacking him. Shojo I think would probably be able to get her to back off, which means Miko would be involved in the battle for Azure City. Also Xykon and Redcloak in this continuity never find out where the gate is located, or so I think. Azure city doesn’t have the same drop in morale either. The nobles also won’t be able to ditch Shojo like they did Hinjo, so they will also be stronger.
The way I see it the chances of Azure City holding out are much, much higher. At the very least the hobgoblins will pay a much higher price for their assault.
Assuming things get to the point of the Empire of Blood Arc the fiends will need a new pawn. My guess is that a vengeful Sabine would tell Tarquin and co about the gates. However Tarquin isn’t anywhere near as easily manipulated as Nale. However I imagine that he might change his preconceived notion of himself as tyrant the good guys have to overthrow, to chessmaster who outgambits the forces of hell for his own gain.
Also, if Xykon was indeed defeated at Azure City, it might not be the end of Xykon and Redcloak's plans. They might simply go looking for Girards gate since Azure City is now inaccessible, assuming they survived. Which is likely, since they would not have known about the gates' location.
Anyway this is all just theory. What do you think?

There is precisely one cleric in the entire OotS world who we *know* is powerful enough to cast True Resurrection. He's green and has a red cloak, and has cast ninth level cleric spells. Also, the Linear Guild worked for Xykon before, so Redcloak could probably True Resurrect Nale, find out from him who his allies were at the time he died, and keep casting until all of the ones he wanted were back (Sabine would need to be summoned, not resurrected, and would probably be sent to Nale by her three bosses so she could keep an eye on things. We have no idea if Redcloak *would*, as the Guild has not had good results against the Order. But Haley was right--Redcloak could have brought Nale (and the others) back unless the Order took a page from Xykon's book and trapped their souls somewhere.

[Lacuna Caster]

As soon as Miko saw that Belkar was (A) not in prison and (B) working with Shojo (and Roy), she was probably going to flip out anyway. The LG are fairly incidental to all of that.

Killing the LG immediately after Dorukan's Dungeon might have some significant effects, though. Aside from what goes down in Cliffport, Sabine impersonating the blacksmith is what sends the team after the Starmetal- take away that, and Roy gets his sword repaired much earlier, which allows Eugene to visit again and tell him that Xykon's still alive.

(I'm aware, in theory, that Eugene was busy impersonating a BoPLAG by then, but that creates a huge number of other problems, and there's no technical rule stating that he can't appear to Roy from there.) That's gonna have all manner of knock-on effects down the road.

[D.One]

There is precisely one cleric in the entire OotS world who we *know* is powerful enough to cast True Resurrection. He's green and has a red cloak, and has cast ninth level cleric spells. Also, the Linear Guild worked for Xykon before, so Redcloak could probably True Resurrect Nale, find out from him who his allies were at the time he died, and keep casting until all of the ones he wanted were back (Sabine would need to be summoned, not resurrected, and would probably be sent to Nale by her three bosses so she could keep an eye on things. We have no idea if Redcloak *would*, as the Guild has not had good results against the Order. But Haley was right--Redcloak could have brought Nale (and the others) back unless the Order took a page from Xykon's book and trapped their souls somewhere.

For all we know, there's little love beetween Team Evil and the LG. I see no reasonable reason for Redcloak to rezz Nale & Co.

Killing the LG immediately after Dorukan's Dungeon might have some significant effects, though. Aside from what goes down in Cliffport, Sabine impersonating the blacksmith is what sends the team after the Starmetal- take away that, and Roy gets his sword repaired much earlier, which allows Eugene to visit again and tell him that Xykon's still alive.

(I'm aware, in theory, that Eugene was busy impersonating a BoPLAG by then, but that creates a huge number of other problems, and there's no technical rule stating that he can't appear to Roy from there.) That's gonna have all manner of knock-on effects down the road.

This would have enormous consequences:
V never kill the young dragon, so no Mama Dragon revenge, hence no Darth V, hence no extermination of the Draketeeth... and so it goes.
Roy never gets his starmetal reforged sword, taking from him a important asset agains Xykon, should the lich "survive" the Battle of Azure City. We can even infer that the reforging of the sword was part of the "ritual" that awakened his weapon of legacy, so, no Green Flame Roy too.
And so on...

[BaronOfHell]

If Nale did not escape Azure City and spend the time the OOTS should have spend (but didn't do due to DSTP) searching for Girard's Gate, the order would not have been able to stop RC's plan from coming to fruition since they wouldn't have been able to find the gate in time. (IIRC, right now I don't actually quite remember how the order found out about the windy canyon)

That is assuming everything else happens as it did.
Another alternative is that RC doesn't set up Gobbotopia, (perhaps Xykon gets destroyed, so they simply fail to take the city, perhaps other and better reasons) or the main villains goes straight after Girard's Gate and since Xykon is undead they may even defeat the defenders much easier than e.g. Azure City.

I do of course not know if Girard's family had made preparations for a high level undead spell caster, on one hand it seems like a logical foe, on the other it is maybe also a very uncommon foe.

Another version is that the main villains fall and the world is saved.

[Lacuna Caster]

This would have enormous consequences:
V never kill the young dragon, so no Mama Dragon revenge, hence no Darth V, hence no extermination of the Draketeeth... and so it goes.
Roy never gets his starmetal reforged sword, taking from him a important asset agains Xykon, should the lich "survive" the Battle of Azure City. We can even infer that the reforging of the sword was part of the "ritual" that awakened his weapon of legacy, so, no Green Flame Roy too.

True. On the plus side, when and if he bumped into Miko, there would be much less misleading evidence for the Order's involvement in secondary crimes actually committed by the LG. It's conceivable that Miko could be induced to assist with hunting Team Evil, or at least Send to Shojo for fresh orders.

While there's no way to prove this, I also suspect that if early-strip Belkar didn't have a side-quest to keep him busy for more than fifteen minutes he'd have vented his boredom by butchering more innocent townsfolk while Roy was waiting to get his sword repaired. Which is bad in one sense, but would also remove any excuse for keeping him in the party. (For that matter, V using explosive runes on random commoners, in the miraculous event that didn't kill them outright, would normally count as aggravated assault. But I digress.)

[Lord]

In regards to there being no starmetal quest, keep in mind that this is a setting based on D&D with the gods being the DM's, so to speak. It's also clear that Odin has been influencing Order of the Stick to be in the right place at the right time. If the gods actively wanted Roy to get the Starmetal sword because destiny said he needed it to beat Xykon, it's entirely possible that the quest could have popped up in another fashion and Roy would have learned Xykon was still alive while on the quest.

Maybe the real dwarven blacksmith mentions that Roy might be able to make his weapon far more powerful, and Roy takes the plot hook.

Now in regards to the unstoppable wall of hobgoblins, keep in mind that Belkar faced the exact same situation near another part of the wall. He was slaughtering them en masse and basically won. The reason the huge wave of hobgoblins overwhelmed the wall was because the highest level character there was a spellcaster who was completely out of spells. Half the defenders had fled, and those that remained had no real leader.

If Miko had been at that wall leading them, it is very likely that the Death Knight would have been killed far more easily. Moreover, she could have probably pulled a Sexy Shoeless God of war moment of her own. Especially since she was a higher level than Belkar.

Although this likely would have ended up leading to a rematch with Redcloak. Which could be a pretty cool fight in itself. I suppose the laws of drama would demand that Redcloak would win said showdown and Miko would be killed. But since Redcloak would have to expend a bunch of spells on that, he'd be weaker for his fight with the High Priest of the Twelve Gods.

[elros]

If the OOtS killed the Linear Guild after they were subdued, it would be an evil, or at least a chaotic, act. Then when Roy was killed by Xykon, he would not have been allowed in the lawful good afterlife, and he would not have met his grandfather and learned the Spellsplinter Maneuver.

[Mandor]

If the OOtS killed the Linear Guild after they were subdued, it would be an evil, or at least a chaotic, act. Then when Roy was killed by Xykon, he would not have been allowed in the lawful good afterlife, and he would not have met his grandfather and learned the Spellsplinter Maneuver.

Not sure I can agree with that. If they formally accept their surrender and then kill them anyway, sure, maybe. If they simply refuse to accept surrender and refuse to offer quarter, and kill them anyway though? That's fairly ruthless, but I'd say Miko got away with being as ruthless without falling as a paladin. It was six on six, the Order still had a LICH to deal with, and the LG had proven themselves as liars and betrayers. There's no real reason to offer them quarter, and not much hope of proceeding with the main mission if you do. (no viable means of transporting the LG to jail until after they turned Celia back to flesh, and no way of knowing Celia would accept that task in advance).

I think the plan starting with "S" and ending with "litting their throats" would have been entirely reasonable in the circumstances.

Of course, storywise, that's not how it happened, and Elan would not have wanted to lose his twin brother so soon after finding him, and Haley *might* have sided with Elan because of that, even if she really would have liked to just END Sabine. (esp since Sabine being a succubus, wouldnt' have really ended anyway....)

[Lacuna Caster]

Of course, storywise, that's not how it happened, and Elan would not have wanted to lose his twin brother so soon after finding him, and Haley *might* have sided with Elan because of that, even if she really would have liked to just END Sabine. (esp since Sabine being a succubus, wouldn't have really ended anyway....)

Technically, after the first battle, Nale and Thog had both been left helpless or unresisting, then accepted terms of surrender from the OOTS. I don't think they knew enough to say, at that point, that the LG would be such a recurring problem, and given they didn't pose an immediate threat at the time... well, Elan was Nale's brother, so it's understandable that he'd be reluctant to do him in. I can give them a pass on that.

After the incident in Cliffport and especially Nale's impersonation of Elan, however, I think they were really bending over backwards to rationalise a terrible decision made largely to avoid upsetting Elan's delicate sensibilities.

On a completely unrelated note, I totally forgot that everyone forgot about Durkon back in the dungeon. Huh.

[dps]

For all we know, there's little love beetween Team Evil and the LG. I see no reasonable reason for Redcloak to rezz Nale & Co.

I don't remember for certain, but was there ever anything shown in the comic to indicate whether or not Team Evil even knew or cared whether or not the Linear Guild survived the destruction of Durukan's Dungeon? Best as I can recall, they don't know or care, so I agree that there is no reason that Redcloak would rezz Nale.

[Lacuna Caster]

In regards to there being no starmetal quest, keep in mind that this is a setting based on D&D with the gods being the DM's, so to speak. It's also clear that Odin has been influencing Order of the Stick to be in the right place at the right time...

Whoa. Hold up. Do we have evidence within the strip that the Gods themselves have been directly manipulating mortal affairs for the Order's benefit? If you could link that I'd appreciate it.

[D.One]

If the OOtS killed the Linear Guild after they were subdued, it would be an evil, or at least a chaotic, act. Then when Roy was killed by Xykon, he would not have been allowed in the lawful good afterlife, and he would not have met his grandfather and learned the Spellsplinter Maneuver.

if the killing happened in Dorukan's Dungeon, I agree, but if it happened in the third encounter, in Azure City, I don't really think it should rest on Roy's shoulders and soul since he wasn't even present at the time. he would wake up the next morning and, instead of finding the LG tied up, would find them dead, and would probably reprehend the groupo for the ruthlessness.

[Lacuna Caster]

if the killing happened in Dorukan's Dungeon, I agree, but if it happened in the third encounter, in Azure City, I don't really think it should rest on Roy's shoulders and soul since he wasn't even present at the time. he would wake up the next morning and, instead of finding the LG tied up, would find them dead, and would probably reprehend the groupo for the ruthlessness.

This is basically all a variant on the usual Arkham-Asylum debate about "why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?"

It's slightly off the mark, though, because in a universe with mass-murdering supervillains that are impossible to reliably incarcerate the legal system would just be modified to impose the death penalty. The solution to the Nale dilemma wouldn't be 'drop him off in Cliffport so he can escape later', the solution would be 'drop him off in Cliffport so he can go to the guillotine'.

[hamishspence]

(I'm aware, in theory, that Eugene was busy impersonating a BoPLAG by then, but that creates a huge number of other problems, and there's no technical rule stating that he can't appear to Roy from there.)

At least according to Eugene, he cannot "manifest freely" to Roy until the sword is fixed.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html

which is why he took the opportunity to hijack Shojo's summoning spell in the first place.

[Lacuna Caster]

At least according to Eugene, he cannot "manifest freely" to Roy until the sword is fixed.

I'm aware of the sword being a requirement. But my question is whether, if the sword was repaired earlier, whether being summoned by the azurite clerics would prevent him from appearing to Roy.

[hamishspence]

I'm aware of the sword being a requirement. But my question is whether, if the sword was repaired earlier, whether being summoned by the azurite clerics would prevent him from appearing to Roy.

The circle is portrayed as something that holds him there - to leave the circle, he needs to have fulfilled the task he was summoned for.

[Lacuna Caster]

The circle is portrayed as something that holds him there - to leave the circle, he needs to have fulfilled the task he was summoned for.

I was under the impression that Eugene could exit from the circle straight back to Celestia, though, from whence he could appear to Roy again. (To be clear, I don't think the story makes much sense with Eugene being summoned that early, but just for the sake of argument.)

[hamishspence]

I was going more from the bonus strip - in which he made it clear that if he left the circle, he wouldn't be able to reply to more summoning messages - which was why he insisted his "task had not been fulfilled".

So - between being summoned by Shojo, and the trial, he would have had to stay in the circle because of this worry. He might not be able to sense Roy's sword being repaired from within that circle, either.

[Concept]

The whole argument is based on an unrelated coincidence. Are you proposing that the only way Miko could have figured out Shojo was in the middle of a massive conspiracy (which he was) is because he happened to make some remarks related to the LG?

Because this really is all about Miko smashing the gem, right?

[Lord]

Whoa. Hold up. Do we have evidence within the strip that the Gods themselves have been directly manipulating mortal affairs for the Order's benefit? If you could link that I'd appreciate it.

The entire reason Durkon was sent into human lands was because Odin choose to send a prophecy to the high priest of Thor that when Durkon next returns home he will bring doom and destruction on them all. Odin knew that if he did so, Durkon would be exiled, but he concluded that without the prophecy the Order of the Stick might never be founded and the alternative was worse. It was all spelled out in a recent strip, I can't remember which one.

Also Thor sent a thunderstorm to let Miko beat the order because otherwise they would have wasted her in a few rounds. Thor also sent a lightning storm to interfere with Durkula's plans.

So it is quite clear that both Odin and Thor have stepped in from time to time. They just do so behind the scenes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It was all spelled out in a recent strip, I can't remember which one

1098

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

1098

The entire reason Durkon was sent into human lands was because Odin choose to send a prophecy to the high priest of Thor that when Durkon next returns home he will bring doom and destruction on them all. Odin knew that if he did so, Durkon would be exiled, but he concluded that without the prophecy the Order of the Stick might never be founded and the alternative was worse. It was all spelled out in a recent strip, I can't remember which one.

Also Thor sent a thunderstorm to let Miko beat the order because otherwise they would have wasted her in a few rounds. Thor also sent a lightning storm to interfere with Durkula's plans...

Well, the first lightning storm was supposedly just Thor on a drunken bender. But okay.

I'm, uh... I'm going to need some time to process this.

[Dr.Zero]

No Nale to explain to Tarquin what the Gates are.
No LG+T&M to go after the OOTS in the Pyramid.
No reason to seize the Pyramid and giving Nale a second chance.
No battle T vs OOTS with T realizing how underpowered his only son is.
Arguably, being T a bit of a freak control, he might scry for Elan, and reach similar conclusions, but it requires a lot of free time or a good TeeVo to record the battles.
Anyway for a while they would still be in the "let's agree to disagree" terms they left, when T gave them the flying carpet. Elan could run to daddy to ask for more resources, if needed.

Oh, right, no vampire Durkon and no Hel's plan.

As said by others, probably the DT would be all alive, and, if the OOTS managed to deal with them, they could help them defending the gate from Xykon. Hard to tell if that might make a difference. Probably not.

On the other hand, no Darth V, therefore O-Chul would still be a prisoner.

On the other other hand, RC might still be playing civic leader of Gobbotopia, without the attack from V which made X angry.

[Lacuna Caster]

The entire reason Durkon was sent into human lands was because Odin choose to send a prophecy to the high priest of Thor that when Durkon next returns home he will bring doom and destruction on them all. Odin knew that if he did so, Durkon would be exiled, but he concluded that without the prophecy the Order of the Stick might never be founded and the alternative was worse. It was all spelled out in a recent strip, I can't remember which one.

Okay, uh... wow. Okay.

Let's just say that I am skeptical this is the best Ineffable Plan that a higher being armed with perfect foresight and direct channels of communication with their mortal followers could have arrived at. I mean, previously, I was assuming the Gods just... weren't paying attention. And before that I assumed they couldn't talk directly to their minions. But, uh... yeah. This really takes the biscuit.

[Dr.Zero]

Okay, uh... wow. Okay.

Let's just say that I am skeptical this is the best Ineffable Plan that a higher being armed with perfect foresight and direct channels of communication with their mortal followers could have arrived at. I mean, previously, I was assuming the Gods just... weren't paying attention. And before that I assumed they couldn't talk directly to their minions. But, uh... yeah. This really takes the biscuit.

Maybe he made a bet with another God about it.
(I totally ripped off this idea from Asimov's Spell my name with an S obviously )

[Lacuna Caster]

Maybe he made a bet with another God about it.
(I totally ripped off this idea from Asimov's Spell my name with an S obviously )

I do sort-of wonder how that works out in a universe with multiple competing omniscient deities. I mean, are Odin, Tiamat and Lord Rooster engaged in some kind of perpetual clairvoyant one-upmanship game?

[Fyraltari]

Okay, uh... wow. Okay.

Let's just say that I am skeptical this is the best Ineffable Plan that a higher being armed with perfect foresight and direct channels of communication with their mortal followers could have arrived at. I mean, previously, I was assuming the Gods just... weren't paying attention. And before that I assumed they couldn't talk directly to their minions. But, uh... yeah. This really takes the biscuit.

Haven't we established already that the gods re neither ineffable omniscient or capable of perfect communication with their followers?
These are not Good Omens' God, playing solitaire with the universe, they are much more limited in scope.

The order theorizes that Odin knew what he was doing when he delivered the prophecy and he himself has implied that he knows of the second world and has better understanding of the situation than the mortals (and the readership).

We have no idea what Odin's end goals are, what he considers acceptable sacrifice or how much went according to plan. We don't even know if he really has a plan.

[Lacuna Caster]

Haven't we established already that the gods re neither ineffable omniscient or capable of perfect communication with their followers?

Unfortunately, as I see it, in order for Odin to foresee that Durkon would return home bringing death and destruction in this particular way, he'd have had to anticipate the long series of highly contingent events and apparent coincidences that brought him to be vampirised in the first place. If that's not omniscience, it's close enough for all practical intents and purposes.