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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    I do sort-of wonder how that works out in a universe with multiple competing omniscient deities. I mean, are Odin, Tiamat and Lord Rooster engaged in some kind of perpetual clairvoyant one-upmanship game?
    In the quoted Asimov's novel, the aliens weren't omniscient, but only very very very able to foresee consequences of small changes (they were mere students trying to graduate, IIRC, to add insult to injury).
    Maybe making small changes to create big outcomes is their way to waste time, kind of a very complex chess game. I mean, being an eternal god in the long run must be quite boring, and pawing goddesses can waste only so much time.
    So either they play their multiverse chess game using us as pawn, or they give up, get bored to death (so to speak), descend into oblivion and start to babble blasphemes at the center of the infinity in chambers beyond time and space listening to the beatings of vile drums and to the music of accursed flutes.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Unfortunately, as I see it, in order for Odin to foresee that Durkon would return home bringing death and destruction in this particular way, he'd have had to anticipate the long series of highly contingent events and apparent coincidences that brought him to be vampirised in the first place. If that's not omniscience, it's close enough for all practical intents and purposes.
    You're trying to make magic far too scientific. All that's established is that Odin's priest was given a prophesy that when Durkon next returned home he would bring death and destruction for them all. All that's theorized in the comic is that Odin knew 1) that death and destruction for the dwarves would be the price of getting Durkon exiled and 2) that that was a price worth paying for Odin, for some reason hopefully related to the Order--though that part could be the main characters' egos talking.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Unfortunately, as I see it, in order for Odin to foresee that Durkon would return home bringing death and destruction in this particular way, he'd have had to anticipate the long series of highly contingent events and apparent coincidences that brought him to be vampirised in the first place. If that's not omniscience, it's close enough for all practical intents and purposes.

    Tsk Tsk Tsk... Who says Odin foresaw all of this?
    We know there was a prophecy and we know the characters somehow interpreted Odin as knowing that Durkon specifically is the one person needed to gather them all up.


    But we also know that sometimes clerics have no bloody clue what their gods are thinking

    For all we know, Odin might have had something completely different in mind and people misunderstood.

    If Odin is omniscient, he would be the one to talk in the Godsmoot and give the simple "yes" or "no" answer if the mortals could stop the Snarl and everyone would call it a day.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by SlashDash View Post
    Tsk Tsk Tsk... Who says Odin foresaw all of this?
    We know there was a prophecy and we know the characters somehow interpreted Odin as knowing that Durkon specifically is the one person needed to gather them all up.


    But we also know that sometimes clerics have no bloody clue what their gods are thinking

    For all we know, Odin might have had something completely different in mind and people misunderstood.

    If Odin is omniscient, he would be the one to talk in the Godsmoot and give the simple "yes" or "no" answer if the mortals could stop the Snarl and everyone would call it a day.
    It might be that Odin can see possible futures and concluded that the most favorable chances he had for the future were in Durkon being kicked out of his home. Thus he could not be omniscient, while still perceiving time and space differently from others.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    It might also be that Odin, not being omniscient, gets like flashes or insights into the future, so he knows he wants Durkon exiled but he can't really foresee the exact developments that will cause him to help Odin's cause/go back to Dwarven lands bringing death and destruction. In mythologies, Fate is typically a wholly independent force of which the gods get very imperfect glimpses. Prophecy is totally up Odin's alley, so he would get more exact glimpses than most deities, but there's no reason to assume he's remotely close to omniscient.
    Last edited by hroþila; 2018-01-27 at 07:32 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    You're trying to make magic far too scientific. All that's established is that Odin's priest was given a prophesy that when Durkon next returned home he would bring death and destruction for them all. All that's theorized in the comic is that Odin knew 1) that death and destruction for the dwarves would be the price of getting Durkon exiled and 2) that that was a price worth paying for Odin, for some reason hopefully related to the Order--though that part could be the main characters' egos talking.
    Hey, if it's subsequently revealed that the Order's interpretation of all this is dead wrong and Odin sent that prophecy down the tube under the impression this would somehow thwart his own precognitive visions of the future, so be it. I will happily concede my error.

    Given, however, there are other prophetic deities in the world, I'm unclear on why Sangwaan or the HPoTTG couldn't get a memo from their divine patrons notifying them of, say, an impending army of orange doom, several hundred strips ago. Or simply correct the Guard's misconception about who was the most dangerous party in Dorukan's Dungeon. Or go right back to Lirian's Gate and clear up that mess. You can't have "the Gods are silent, hands-off observers" as a major underlying premise of the story when they clearly aren't silent and clearly aren't hands-off observers.

    .
    Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2018-01-29 at 09:36 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Hey, if it's subsequently revealed that the Order's interpretation of all this is dead wrong and Odin sent that prophecy down the tube under the impression this would somehow thwart his own precognitive visions of the future, so be it. I will happily concede my error.
    What do you mean thwarting his own visions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Given, however, there are other prophetic deities in the world, I'm unclear on why Sangwaan or the HPoTTG couldn't get a memo from their divine patrons notifying them of, say, an impending army of orange doom, several hundred strips ago. Or simply correct the Guard's misconception about who was the most dangerous party in Dorukan's Dungeon. Or go right back to Lirian's Gate and clear up that mess. You can't have "the Gods are silent, hands-off observers" as a major underlying premise of the story when they clearly aren't silent and clearly aren't hands-off observers.
    No but you can have the gods aren't all-knowing. you can have Odin knew some including part of the end result but not all that leads there. That is literally how every prophecy I've ever heard of have worked. 'Here's the end result, kiddo. Not gonna tell you what happens between now and then, though."
    You can also have the gods have their own agenda and aren't a unified front too.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    I think if you're expecting to get more information about Odin's motives than you already have, you should prepare for disappointment.

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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Hey, if it's subsequently revealed that the Order's interpretation of all this is dead wrong and Odin sent that prophecy down the tube under the impression this would somehow thwart his own precognitive visions of the future, so be it. I will happily concede my error.

    Given, however, there are other prophetic deities in the world, I'm unclear on why Sangwaan or the HPoTTG couldn't get a memo from their divine patrons notifying them of, say, an impending army of orange doom, several hundred strips ago. Or simply correct the Guard's misconception about who was the most dangerous party in Dorukan's Dungeon. Or go right back to Lirian's Gate and clear up that mess. You can't have "the Gods are silent, hands-off observers" as a major underlying premise of the story when they clearly aren't silent and clearly aren't hands-off observers.

    .
    Even because for most of these, indeed, the Gods don't even need to be prophetic, just to communicate after a good scrying.
    It is possible that the Gods really don't give a damn about their followers, and Odin, Hel and now Loki took the time to mess with the puny, dirty mortals just because the puny, dirty mortals are a key element in their power games.
    But indeed it doesn't explain why Odin, the Twelves and alike didn't mess with them MORE, like gathering their followers to secure the gates (I mean, if some gods can give instructions to put them in danger, why some others cannot give instructions to secure them?)

    But these are the usual problems that arise when gods are introduced, I suppose.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I think if you're expecting to get more information about Odin's motives than you already have, you should prepare for disappointment.
    That hinges on how the full story of Snarl and the world-within-the-world are revealed and what they are, I say. Defenitely second to third a ct of the last book stuff though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Even because for most of these, indeed, the Gods don't even need to be prophetic, just to communicate after a good scrying.
    It is possible that the Gods really don't give a damn about their followers, and Odin, Hel and now Loki took the time to mess with the puny, dirty mortals just because the puny, dirty mortals are a key element in their power games.
    But indeed it doesn't explain why Odin, the Twelves and alike didn't mess with them MORE, like gathering their followers to secure the gates (I mean, if some gods can give instructions to put them in danger, why some others cannot give instructions to secure them?)

    But these are the usual problems that arise when gods are introduced, I suppose.
    According to Heimdall they voted to "let the mortals patch this on their own" last time so they probably are not allowed to interfere any more than what they did.
    As to why they would vote that I see two reasons :
    1) The fewer mortals in the loop the fewer risks there are.
    2) They don't trust each other. As in : if given access to the Gate any of them could pull a Dark One and start brandishing the Snarl as a WMD. And really would you trust Fenrir or Balder with watching the reality destroying rift?
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Even because for most of these, indeed, the Gods don't even need to be prophetic, just to communicate after a good scrying.
    Yes, exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    According to Heimdall they voted to "let the mortals patch this on their own" last time so they probably are not allowed to interfere any more than what they did.
    If Odin can find some weasel-wording for his prophecy that doesn't technically violate their mutual non-aggression pact, I suspect the Twelve could figure something out.

    I'm also not clear on why a mutual non-aggression pact would apply to Team Evil, who by all appearances are either threatening all the Gods simultaneously or enough of them that the Dark One would be badly outnumbered. It's one thing to say that the Cosmic Game must have rules, it's quite another when some of the playing-pieces are trying to burn down the house with all the players inside.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    If Odin can find some weasel-wording for his prophecy that doesn't technically violate their mutual non-aggression pact, I suspect the Twelve could figure something out.

    I'm also not clear on why a mutual non-aggression pact would apply to Team Evil, who by all appearances are either threatening all the Gods simultaneously or enough of them that the Dark One would be badly outnumbered. It's one thing to say that the Cosmic Game must have rules, it's quite another when some of the playing-pieces are trying to burn down the house with all the players inside.
    My guess is that the Gods are forbidden to order anyone to guard the Gates forfear of it degenerating in a free-for-all for control of the Gates. But if mortals want to protect them out of their own agenda then they can help a little. If the Order is correct then Odin did strictly nothing that could be seen by any other gods as trying to secure control of the Gates.

    It is a shaky theory considering that the SG protected one gate entirely on its own and was entirely made up of Southern Pantheon worshippers but if "we didn't order them to do that. Soon did, on his own" counts as weasel wording then it stands.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-01-31 at 10:04 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    What I find a little weird is that the gods can’t all agree on annihilating Team Evil. Surely it’s each of their best interests to lay the divine smackdown on a bunch of villains who are trying to use the threat of the Snarl to control the world. Do they not know anything about Redcloak’s or Xykon’s plans? If so, why not? Surely they must care enough about the safety of the Gates to be constantly spying on the villains trying to seize them. It would be insane if none of the fifty-odd gods had thought to put someone on this.

    Maybe The Dark One would react violently if they attacked Xykon or Redcloak, and that’d risk creating another Snarl? Yeah, that’s my new headcanon.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2018-02-01 at 03:04 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    What I find a little weird is that the gods can’t all agree on annihilating Team Evil. Surely it’s each of their best interests to lay the divine smackdown on a bunch of villains who are trying to use the threat of the Snarl to control the world. Do they not know anything about Redcloak’s or Xykon’s plans? If so, why not? Surely they must care enough about the safety of the Gates to be constantly spying on the villains trying to seize them. It would be insane if none of the fifty-odd gods had thought to put someone on this.

    Maybe The Dark One would react violently if they attacked Xykon or Redcloak, and that’d risk creating another Snarl? Yeah, that’s my new headcanon.
    Another Snarl can only be created if the world-building process starts over from scratch- I don't think a fight among the Gods per se would risk that.

    I think it was mentioned that the other Gods had conspired to hide the Gates' location from the Dark One, so it's conceivable that he's also been hiding Xykon and RC's activities from the other Gods. (I also vaguely recall some post from the author saying that the Dark One doesn't need to split the worship he receives with a wider pantheon, so he's pretty strong as Gods go.)

    I very much doubt that even he could conceal the movements of an entire hobgoblin army, however, and if the Gods are worried about the secret of the Snarl leaking out to the general public, then it's fair to expect they've heard of Xykon's plan. Particularly given that at least two surviving azurite paladins do know exactly what TE are up to and have a direct fix on their current position.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Maybe The Dark One would react violently if they attacked Xykon or Redcloak, and that’d risk creating another Snarl? Yeah, that’s my new headcanon.
    I would venture that every evil god would balk at "if you have a plan to increase your personal power at the expense of the other gods that looks like it might work, all three pantheons will unite to smash your pawns" being established as a precedent.

    Essentially the same answer as the recurring "why is the rest of the Northern pantheon letting Hel's scheme proceed instead of just overpowering her?" question.

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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I would venture that every evil god would balk at "if you have a plan to increase your personal power at the expense of the other gods that looks like it might work, all three pantheons will unite to smash your pawns" being established as a precedent.

    Essentially the same answer as the recurring "why is the rest of the Northern pantheon letting Hel's scheme proceed instead of just overpowering her?" question.
    I am not sure. Hel still has to play by the same rules as everyone else while the Dark One is a complete outsider. Hel is not planning to take away any of the gods' power just increase her own, maybe even enough to become top dog but she would not become any more powerful than Odin, Dragon or Marduk are at the moment. And to even get that far she had to make allies and promises. With the Snarl as leverage the Dark One wouyld not simply get the upper hand in their game, he would get to rewrite the rules entirely.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Well, the first lightning storm was supposedly just Thor on a drunken bender. But okay.

    I'm, uh... I'm going to need some time to process this.
    Perhaps Odin told Loki to get Thor *really* drunk for the next few days just before strip #200. . .:-)
    Sudden thought after watching an old "Lois and Clark" episode: Lane Davies aka Tempus is probably the best possible choice to portray an animated or live action Xykon if either of those ever becomes reality--he was born in 1950 and Tempus' personality is a close match for pre-lich Xykon IMO. Just my two cents.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    This is basically all a variant on the usual Arkham-Asylum debate about "why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?"

    It's slightly off the mark, though, because in a universe with mass-murdering supervillains that are impossible to reliably incarcerate the legal system would just be modified to impose the death penalty. The solution to the Nale dilemma wouldn't be 'drop him off in Cliffport so he can escape later', the solution would be 'drop him off in Cliffport so he can go to the guillotine'.
    You know, that make me realize something: Given that Hell is an actual physical place in this universe, one that is known to exist, does that make Resurrection the spiritual equivalent of fleeing to a foreign nation to escape legal punishment?
    Last edited by woweedd; 2018-02-13 at 07:39 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    You know, that make me realize something: Given that Hell is an actual physical place in this universe, one that is known to exist, does that make Resurrection the spiritual equivalent of fleeing to a foreign nation to escape legal punishment?
    I'm not 100% clear on what the lower planes' policy on this is, exactly. In standard D&D fresh souls in Hell are boiled down to thin amnesiac shells of their former selves, so while they'd certainly be happy to return, it's not clear that there'd be enough of the original person to reconstitute. It seems like you'd end up with some kind of Hellraiser scenario.
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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    I'm not 100% clear on what the lower planes' policy on this is, exactly. In standard D&D fresh souls in Hell are boiled down to thin amnesiac shells of their former selves, so while they'd certainly be happy to return, it's not clear that there'd be enough of the original person to reconstitute. It seems like you'd end up with some kind of Hellraiser scenario.
    Presumably it just so happens that no soul feels compelled to "move up the mountain" or whatever the equivalent in non-Celestia planes is, until the time limit for Resurrection is up. Spells like Miracle might restore a soul that has begun its transition to battery-dom.

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    Default Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    With the Snarl as leverage the Dark One wouyld not simply get the upper hand in their game, he would get to rewrite the rules entirely.
    Which would be an excellent reason for the other gods to destroy the world and retrap the Snarl, instead of hoping the Dark One can actually restrain the Snarl after screwing up the only Gate still holding it back.
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