Results 31 to 51 of 51
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2018-01-26, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Italy
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
In the quoted Asimov's novel, the aliens weren't omniscient, but only very very very able to foresee consequences of small changes (they were mere students trying to graduate, IIRC, to add insult to injury).
Maybe making small changes to create big outcomes is their way to waste time, kind of a very complex chess game. I mean, being an eternal god in the long run must be quite boring, and pawing goddesses can waste only so much time.
So either they play their multiverse chess game using us as pawn, or they give up, get bored to death (so to speak), descend into oblivion and start to babble blasphemes at the center of the infinity in chambers beyond time and space listening to the beatings of vile drums and to the music of accursed flutes.
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2018-01-26, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
You're trying to make magic far too scientific. All that's established is that Odin's priest was given a prophesy that when Durkon next returned home he would bring death and destruction for them all. All that's theorized in the comic is that Odin knew 1) that death and destruction for the dwarves would be the price of getting Durkon exiled and 2) that that was a price worth paying for Odin, for some reason hopefully related to the Order--though that part could be the main characters' egos talking.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2018-01-27, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
Tsk Tsk Tsk... Who says Odin foresaw all of this?
We know there was a prophecy and we know the characters somehow interpreted Odin as knowing that Durkon specifically is the one person needed to gather them all up.
But we also know that sometimes clerics have no bloody clue what their gods are thinking
For all we know, Odin might have had something completely different in mind and people misunderstood.
If Odin is omniscient, he would be the one to talk in the Godsmoot and give the simple "yes" or "no" answer if the mortals could stop the Snarl and everyone would call it a day.
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2018-01-27, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
: Proud Veteran Warrior of The Roy fan club.
: Proud Member of the Redcloak fan club
These hands of mine have been dirty for a long time now Suzaku, your coming to face me now doesn't matter at all. Hell I welcome it even.
I mean of course you and I are friends.
{Begins laughing Maniacally as the city around him falls apart}
Lelouch Vi Brittania's reaction to a deaththreat from his best friend. Badass
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2018-01-27, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
It might also be that Odin, not being omniscient, gets like flashes or insights into the future, so he knows he wants Durkon exiled but he can't really foresee the exact developments that will cause him to help Odin's cause/go back to Dwarven lands bringing death and destruction. In mythologies, Fate is typically a wholly independent force of which the gods get very imperfect glimpses. Prophecy is totally up Odin's alley, so he would get more exact glimpses than most deities, but there's no reason to assume he's remotely close to omniscient.
Last edited by hroþila; 2018-01-27 at 07:32 PM.
ungelic is us
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2018-01-29, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
Hey, if it's subsequently revealed that the Order's interpretation of all this is dead wrong and Odin sent that prophecy down the tube under the impression this would somehow thwart his own precognitive visions of the future, so be it. I will happily concede my error.
Given, however, there are other prophetic deities in the world, I'm unclear on why Sangwaan or the HPoTTG couldn't get a memo from their divine patrons notifying them of, say, an impending army of orange doom, several hundred strips ago. Or simply correct the Guard's misconception about who was the most dangerous party in Dorukan's Dungeon. Or go right back to Lirian's Gate and clear up that mess. You can't have "the Gods are silent, hands-off observers" as a major underlying premise of the story when they clearly aren't silent and clearly aren't hands-off observers.
.Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2018-01-29 at 09:36 AM.
Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2018-01-29, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
What do you mean thwarting his own visions?
No but you can have the gods aren't all-knowing. you can have Odin knew some including part of the end result but not all that leads there. That is literally how every prophecy I've ever heard of have worked. 'Here's the end result, kiddo. Not gonna tell you what happens between now and then, though."
You can also have the gods have their own agenda and aren't a unified front too.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-01-29, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
I think if you're expecting to get more information about Odin's motives than you already have, you should prepare for disappointment.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2018-01-29, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Italy
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
Even because for most of these, indeed, the Gods don't even need to be prophetic, just to communicate after a good scrying.
It is possible that the Gods really don't give a damn about their followers, and Odin, Hel and now Loki took the time to mess with the puny, dirty mortals just because the puny, dirty mortals are a key element in their power games.
But indeed it doesn't explain why Odin, the Twelves and alike didn't mess with them MORE, like gathering their followers to secure the gates (I mean, if some gods can give instructions to put them in danger, why some others cannot give instructions to secure them?)
But these are the usual problems that arise when gods are introduced, I suppose.
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2018-01-29, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
That hinges on how the full story of Snarl and the world-within-the-world are revealed and what they are, I say. Defenitely second to third a ct of the last book stuff though.
According to Heimdall they voted to "let the mortals patch this on their own" last time so they probably are not allowed to interfere any more than what they did.
As to why they would vote that I see two reasons :
1) The fewer mortals in the loop the fewer risks there are.
2) They don't trust each other. As in : if given access to the Gate any of them could pull a Dark One and start brandishing the Snarl as a WMD. And really would you trust Fenrir or Balder with watching the reality destroying rift?Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-01-31, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
Yes, exactly.
If Odin can find some weasel-wording for his prophecy that doesn't technically violate their mutual non-aggression pact, I suspect the Twelve could figure something out.
I'm also not clear on why a mutual non-aggression pact would apply to Team Evil, who by all appearances are either threatening all the Gods simultaneously or enough of them that the Dark One would be badly outnumbered. It's one thing to say that the Cosmic Game must have rules, it's quite another when some of the playing-pieces are trying to burn down the house with all the players inside.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2018-01-31, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
My guess is that the Gods are forbidden to order anyone to guard the Gates forfear of it degenerating in a free-for-all for control of the Gates. But if mortals want to protect them out of their own agenda then they can help a little. If the Order is correct then Odin did strictly nothing that could be seen by any other gods as trying to secure control of the Gates.
It is a shaky theory considering that the SG protected one gate entirely on its own and was entirely made up of Southern Pantheon worshippers but if "we didn't order them to do that. Soon did, on his own" counts as weasel wording then it stands.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-01-31 at 10:04 AM.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-02-01, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Beverly, MA, USA
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
What I find a little weird is that the gods can’t all agree on annihilating Team Evil. Surely it’s each of their best interests to lay the divine smackdown on a bunch of villains who are trying to use the threat of the Snarl to control the world. Do they not know anything about Redcloak’s or Xykon’s plans? If so, why not? Surely they must care enough about the safety of the Gates to be constantly spying on the villains trying to seize them. It would be insane if none of the fifty-odd gods had thought to put someone on this.
Maybe The Dark One would react violently if they attacked Xykon or Redcloak, and that’d risk creating another Snarl? Yeah, that’s my new headcanon.Last edited by Emanick; 2018-02-01 at 03:04 AM.
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2018-02-05, 05:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
Another Snarl can only be created if the world-building process starts over from scratch- I don't think a fight among the Gods per se would risk that.
I think it was mentioned that the other Gods had conspired to hide the Gates' location from the Dark One, so it's conceivable that he's also been hiding Xykon and RC's activities from the other Gods. (I also vaguely recall some post from the author saying that the Dark One doesn't need to split the worship he receives with a wider pantheon, so he's pretty strong as Gods go.)
I very much doubt that even he could conceal the movements of an entire hobgoblin army, however, and if the Gods are worried about the secret of the Snarl leaking out to the general public, then it's fair to expect they've heard of Xykon's plan. Particularly given that at least two surviving azurite paladins do know exactly what TE are up to and have a direct fix on their current position.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2018-02-05, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
I would venture that every evil god would balk at "if you have a plan to increase your personal power at the expense of the other gods that looks like it might work, all three pantheons will unite to smash your pawns" being established as a precedent.
Essentially the same answer as the recurring "why is the rest of the Northern pantheon letting Hel's scheme proceed instead of just overpowering her?" question.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2018-02-05, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
I am not sure. Hel still has to play by the same rules as everyone else while the Dark One is a complete outsider. Hel is not planning to take away any of the gods' power just increase her own, maybe even enough to become top dog but she would not become any more powerful than Odin, Dragon or Marduk are at the moment. And to even get that far she had to make allies and promises. With the Snarl as leverage the Dark One wouyld not simply get the upper hand in their game, he would get to rewrite the rules entirely.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2018-02-08, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
Sudden thought after watching an old "Lois and Clark" episode: Lane Davies aka Tempus is probably the best possible choice to portray an animated or live action Xykon if either of those ever becomes reality--he was born in 1950 and Tempus' personality is a close match for pre-lich Xykon IMO. Just my two cents.
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2018-02-09, 05:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
Last edited by woweedd; 2018-02-13 at 07:39 PM.
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2018-02-09, 06:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
I'm not 100% clear on what the lower planes' policy on this is, exactly. In standard D&D fresh souls in Hell are boiled down to thin amnesiac shells of their former selves, so while they'd certainly be happy to return, it's not clear that there'd be enough of the original person to reconstitute. It seems like you'd end up with some kind of Hellraiser scenario.
Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2018-02-09, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
Presumably it just so happens that no soul feels compelled to "move up the mountain" or whatever the equivalent in non-Celestia planes is, until the time limit for Resurrection is up. Spells like Miracle might restore a soul that has begun its transition to battery-dom.
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2018-02-09, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas