The Elder Scrolls XIV: Good? Bad? I'm the one with the Thu'um!

[Psyren]

Classes may or may not be useful for TES. I'm not sure if Skyrim did well to remove character generation entirely and rely purely on in-game development. But Warrior/Mage/Thief isn't a useful division.

I personally think it is - after all, just about every class in a CRPG can generally be expressed as some combination of the Big 3.

Skyrim's approach - expose you to every possible playstyle in the tutorial - may have been more organic than writing your class down on your prison release forms ("Sign here, Mr. Nightblade"), but it was also more incongruous. "Here, grab this broadsword and defend yourself from these armed imperial guardsmen. No I don't know what you were supposed to do if you never held a sword in your life. Now leap out of this collapsing tower. How old did you say you were again? Okay, now grab this bow and sneak past that sleeping bear."

[Eldan]

Clearly it's a prequel, showing the founding of the Alessian Empire.

I just remembered... this would mean we could play as a time travelling cyborg. I want this game now.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I'm not saying that's bad. Killing a lot of stuff is part of most RPGs after all. I'm just saying that it doesn't really make me think of swelling music and peaceful sunrise.

Fair enough.

Thoughts?

Concur that it's kind of odd that you can't craft or commission scrolls. I end up using potions for all my substitute sorcerer needs, and selling the scrolls. Maybe they would be more useful if they brought back monsters that were immune to physical damage?

I just remembered... this would mean we could play as a time travelling cyborg. I want this game now.

!!! I want to meet Morihaus Breath-of-Kyne! And go murder some Ayleid slavemasters with bird beaks.

[Keltest]

I think the real advantage of scrolls should be the ability to frontload the magicka cost. Instead of opening up with your uber death spell of draining all your mana, you scribe it to a scroll ahead of time, so you aren't completely screwed is anything isn't killed by it. Likewise if youre a caster/martial hybrid, scrolls would let you get away with having less magicka in the middle of a fight.

[veti]

Thoughts?

I think you overstate the uselessness of scrolls. I mean - clearly you'd be a fool to try to use scrolls to make yourself an instant no-skill wizard - that's not what they're for. But to give an edge in a tight spot? Only last night my 12th-level paladin-type used a scroll of Guardian Circle, when he stumbled into the tomb of Fjori and Holgeir. For a 12th-level character to have access to that kind of magic - that's not "useless", that's lifesaving. And good luck finding a Staff of Guardian Circle.

It's the sheer common-ness of master-level spells in scroll form that makes them useful. They give easy, though rationed, access to spells that ordinarily it would take you 20, 30 or more solid levels' worth of questing to earn. Granted, I've never really seen the use-case for most of the lower-level scrolls (well, Candlelight could be useful, to a character who conscientiously avoids learning any magic*) - but those are really surprisingly rare, considering. It seems like most of the scrolls in my inventory are Master-level spells, and that's quite a leveller.

Scrolls are for emergencies. Like potions, only - more limited, and harder to use, but the flip side is that they give access to far more powerful magic.

* Although if there's enough light to read a scroll, there's probably enough light that you don't need the spell. But hey, let's not drag reason into Skyrim.

[factotum]

For a 12th-level character to have access to that kind of magic - that's not "useless", that's lifesaving.

But what about a 50th-level character? I can't think of any scrolls in the game that would be useful for such a character, even if they otherwise have no magic skills. Allowing scrolls to get the benefits of magic perks that the player character doesn't have would fix that to some extent--you could have a Guardian Circle that affects much higher level critters than the basic one.

[Morty]

What do you mean, remove character generation? at the start of the game you play around with your characters face, race and some other things.

Thinking further, I don't remember classes being one of the things you mess with, unlike Oblivion and Morrowind, so is that what you mean?

Oblivion and Morrowind both had about thirty prespecified classes, and you were still advised to make a homebrew class to suit your own likes and dislikes.

I meant that you no longer select skills and attributes, as I think should be blindingly obvious from the context.

I personally think it is - after all, just about every class in a CRPG can generally be expressed as some combination of the Big 3.

It's actually not, RPGs just pretend it is as they shoehorn every skill into this division. "Mage" is less useless than the other two, I suppose, since magic is its distinct thing, but is light armor a thief or warrior skill. for instance?

If we do have to divide skills somehow, it'd be more worthwhile to do it along the lines of offensive, defensive, utility, social and so on. This way a new player actually has a good idea of what skills they should pick to have a well-rounded character.

Skyrim's approach - expose you to every possible playstyle in the tutorial - may have been more organic than writing your class down on your prison release forms ("Sign here, Mr. Nightblade"), but it was also more incongruous. "Here, grab this broadsword and defend yourself from these armed imperial guardsmen. No I don't know what you were supposed to do if you never held a sword in your life. Now leap out of this collapsing tower. How old did you say you were again? Okay, now grab this bow and sneak past that sleeping bear."

This, on the other hand, is true.

[veti]

But what about a 50th-level character? I can't think of any scrolls in the game that would be useful for such a character, even if they otherwise have no magic skills.

Well, sure. But that's like saying "why does no one make a gun for Superman?" A 50th level character doesn't need that sort of help.

[factotum]

Well, sure. But that's like saying "why does no one make a gun for Superman?" A 50th level character doesn't need that sort of help.

Well, maybe the game should provide challenges strong enough that a 50th-level character *does* need that sort of help?

[DomaDoma]

!!! I want to meet Morihaus Breath-of-Kyne! And go murder some Ayleid slavemasters with bird beaks.

Ah, Morihaus. Loved the exposition in KOT9, though.

Player: "So, er, given what we now know about the Amulet of Kings, why exactly didn't Alessia become the first of a Dragonborn line?"

Game: "Well, you see, she had this forbidden romance..."

Player: "Not sure I'm buying."

Game: "...with a flying minotaur. Totally warped the fabric of fate."

Player: "Ah. Yeah. That would make sense."

[Eldan]

Right, that's it. Someone needs to write a cheap cheesy Twilight-style teen romance about a love triangle between young, awkward and totally-not-pretty slave Alessia, sexy demigod beast badboy Morihaus and cold, emotionless robot from the future Pelinal Whitestrake. It ends tragically when Pelinal is slain and his ruby heart is used to make the amulet of kings. Then Alessia marries Morihaus and they have a sexy minotaur son who becomes Emperor.

[Triaxx]

But only if all four are voiced by Patrick Stewart.

[DomaDoma]

Right, that's it. Someone needs to write a cheap cheesy Twilight-style teen romance about a love triangle between young, awkward and totally-not-pretty slave Alessia, sexy demigod beast badboy Morihaus and cold, emotionless robot from the future Pelinal Whitestrake. It ends tragically when Pelinal is slain and his ruby heart is used to make the amulet of kings. Then Alessia marries Morihaus and they have a sexy minotaur son who becomes Emperor.

(In that fine YA romance tradition where "emotionless" actually means "in a constant murderous rage.")

[Eldan]

Yes. Pelinal is rather famous for that.

[DomaDoma]

But this time, the author will never suspect!

[Keltest]

Well, maybe the game should provide challenges strong enough that a 50th-level character *does* need that sort of help?

I mean, come a certain point, the benefit scrolls provide will simply not ever be something your character cant already do. If youre a wizard, you can cast that magic directly, and if youre a fighter, you can live without it. Unless scrolls do things that players cant do on their own, they are never going to be amazingly useful.

[Resileaf]

I mean, come a certain point, the benefit scrolls provide will simply not ever be something your character cant already do. If youre a wizard, you can cast that magic directly, and if youre a fighter, you can live without it. Unless scrolls do things that players cant do on their own, they are never going to be amazingly useful.

I don't know, scrolls were amazingly useful in Morrowind, generally much more so than the magic you could cast yourself without buffs and exploits. A thirty seconds paralyze spell cast for free, without any casting animation, without chance of failing... For a fighter or a rogue, that's an iwin button against even the strongest opponents.

[Keltest]

I don't know, scrolls were amazingly useful in Morrowind, generally much more so than the magic you could cast yourself without buffs and exploits. A thirty seconds paralyze spell cast for free, without any casting animation, without chance of failing... For a fighter or a rogue, that's an iwin button against even the strongest opponents.

The casting system was pretty different in Morrowind. Among other things, there were a crap ton more levers to pull in designing a magic effect. There was one enchanted sword who's magical effect amounted to getting a bounty for assault every time you hit somebody, for example.

[Talion]

I don't know, scrolls were amazingly useful in Morrowind, generally much more so than the magic you could cast yourself without buffs and exploits. A thirty seconds paralyze spell cast for free, without any casting animation, without chance of failing... For a fighter or a rogue, that's an iwin button against even the strongest opponents.

Tbh I almost never used my scrolls. Really, the only times I can remember using them were:

Curing various Kwama Queens or myself of blight

That time I decided to go full tilt against Gothren and summoned half a dozen daedra in his very cramped quarters (with some help of my best friend the Amulet of Admonition)

Using a scroll of Icarian Flight like a darn fool

Using a scroll of Windwalker and feeling nothing but absolute joy for 60 blessed seconds

Otherwise I mostly hoarded them, sometimes sold junk ones if I needed the cash. Which did leave me with a hilarious amount of potential magical mayhem sitting around in some dwemer ruin.

[factotum]

Using a scroll of Icarian Flight like a darn fool

That works fine so long as you cast a second one before landing, and you *do* get three of them.

[Resileaf]

Tbh I almost never used my scrolls. Really, the only times I can remember using them were:

Curing various Kwama Queens or myself of blight

That time I decided to go full tilt against Gothren and summoned half a dozen daedra in his very cramped quarters (with some help of my best friend the Amulet of Admonition)

Using a scroll of Icarian Flight like a darn fool

Using a scroll of Windwalker and feeling nothing but absolute joy for 60 blessed seconds

Otherwise I mostly hoarded them, sometimes sold junk ones if I needed the cash. Which did leave me with a hilarious amount of potential magical mayhem sitting around in some dwemer ruin.

I didn't use them often either, I'll admit.
But when I did, it was against stuff that really deserve the resource expenditure. I'm thinking Umbra, Dagoth Ur, some of the stronger Daedra... If you're underleveled, they can be a godsend. Why, I can remember getting Daedric weapons at a very low level thanks to a scroll of paralyze allowing me to whale on a cultist under Vivec entirely uninterrupted for half a minute.

[Caelestion]

That works fine so long as you cast a second one before landing, and you *do* get three of them.

Or by positioning yourself correctly so that you literally splash down at the end, because on Mundus, you can fall at any speed and from any height into water and still land safely, provided that you don't have a Water Walk effect active. :)

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Ah, Morihaus. Loved the exposition in KOT9, though.

Player: "So, er, given what we now know about the Amulet of Kings, why exactly didn't Alessia become the first of a Dragonborn line?"

Game: "Well, you see, she had this forbidden romance..."

Player: "Not sure I'm buying."

Game: "...with a flying minotaur. Totally warped the fabric of fate."

Player: "Ah. Yeah. That would make sense."

Of course the question this raises is...

...who did Kynareth have a forbidden romance with?

Or by positioning yourself correctly so that you literally splash down at the end, because on Mundus, you can fall at any speed and from any height into water and still land safely, provided that you don't have a Water Walk effect active. :)

Water Walk has other uses though. Or does it only let you walk on lava in Oblivion? I confess I haven't tried it in Skyrim or Morrowind.

[Anteros]

Or by positioning yourself correctly so that you literally splash down at the end, because on Mundus, you can fall at any speed and from any height into water and still land safely, provided that you don't have a Water Walk effect active. :)

Sure, but I'd rather die to the fall damage than to the slaughterfish.

[veti]

Well, maybe the game should provide challenges strong enough that a 50th-level character *does* need that sort of help?

That's absolutely a reasonable complaint and a valid modding goal, but it's something that goes way beyond tinkering with scrolls.

Or by positioning yourself correctly so that you literally splash down at the end, because on Mundus, you can fall at any speed and from any height into water and still land safely, provided that you don't have a Water Walk effect active. :)

Does that work even if you land ankle-deep in a small pond? I've never noticed it. Guess I'm just too scared of falling to try it.

[Rynjin]

It needs to be deep enough to trigger the swimming animation (so about chest deep).

[Eldan]

Of course the question this raises is...

...who did Kynareth have a forbidden romance with?

Interesting question. UESP say that Belharza Man-Bull, the son of Alessia and Morihaus was the first minotaur, so she couldn't have mated with one. Kyne is shown with wings, or at least a feather cloak, so he probably got that part from her. I can't think of any god or Daedra who looks minotaurish, either. He could be the son of a god who took on bull-shape, as in the original myth, but he's a demigod, which would imply that his non-Kyne parent was mortal... which would mean that Kyne mated with a normal bull?
Yeah, the Merethic Era is weird.

(Fun fact: the early Roman Republic (or Kingdom?) had five standards and the Eagle was only one of them. One Legion carried the Minotaur.)

[Caelestion]

Does that work even if you land ankle-deep in a small pond? I've never noticed it. Guess I'm just too scared of falling to try it.

If you can navigate into anything short of a large river or the coastline when travelling at that speed, you're a far better man than I ever was! That said, I think it's great that there are still non-obvious interactions in Morrowind that aren't widely known, even sixteen years later.

[Talion]

If you can navigate into anything short of a large river or the coastline when travelling at that speed, you're a far better man than I ever was! That said, I think it's great that there are still non-obvious interactions in Morrowind that aren't widely known, even sixteen years later.

And I think its great that someone could have booted up Morrowind 16 years ago, never turned it off, and still have 14+ years of light from an obscure lantern.

[Balmas]

Next up on Chadwick: Check the boxes that tick me off: Elf? Bossy? Magic user? Barely competent? Snarkier than I am? So far, we're five for five.

Incidentally, there's nothing quite like the sigh of relief when you finally get your load order working the way it used to. I can actually record Morrowind now, and I've been missing that game like nothing else. Chord and his Pointy Sticks^TM can once more terrorize Vvardenfell.