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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    I would, when you've literally just met a person. Nothing against her as a character, but this is the sort of direct forcing an issue that I'm uncomfortable with. I prefer the Marten/Claire method of growing more intimate over time. Even if I am gonna cheer from the rooftops when/if the S.S. Baye sets sail.
    But i think they already witnessed how Faye reacts to Bubble in general and think there is something there?

    Its not like they are pairing two random Strangers.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    I would, when you've literally just met a person. Nothing against her as a character, but this is the sort of direct forcing an issue that I'm uncomfortable with. I prefer the Marten/Claire method of growing more intimate over time. Even if I am gonna cheer from the rooftops when/if the S.S. Baye sets sail.
    I'm sorry, but this isn't "forcing" any issue. She isn't demanding that Faye go out and seduce Bubbles right now, she's just directing Faye to the idea that maybe Bubbles likes her in a romantic way. What Faye does with that knowledge is her own business.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukkai View Post
    that sounds like.. well, sawing off the branch you are sitting on...

    I understand pushing the envelope a bit to accommodate for different "token"/minority character in order to raise awareness a bit, but trying to force someone to accept something they, at the moment, are not ready to accept is a bit.. counterproductive..
    Jeph is not force-feeding QC to anyone. It's more a declaration that he has no interest in accommodating people who are put off by the prevalence of minority characters. If they decide to accept it, cool. If they decide not to, whatever, don't let the door hit you on the way out, etc. Complaining about it will only make it 'worse'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    But she isnt forcing anything on anyone. She is trying to get Faye to understand something about herself or about Bubble.

    If she doesnt get there, she doesnt get there because there's nothing there ot she's not ready yet. But trying to get someone to be more aware of their emotions or other people's is not what i would call meddling.
    The issue is that Evie has not heard enough from Faye, or been around Faye long enough, to claim particular insight into Faye. For Evie to be teaching Faye about herself feels unearned.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2018-01-25 at 01:15 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post

    The issue is that Evie has not heard enough from Faye, or been around Faye long enough, to claim particular insight into Faye. For Evie to be teaching Faye about herself feels unearned.
    Yeah, that, thanks. These are exactly the words I was looking for. I would look at this more favourably if it were, say, Martin, who was bringing this up.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Yeah I don't consider trying to make someone realize something by asking leading questions is meddling but they are far too new to the situation to be sure enough about their conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dukkai View Post
    I.e., for the sake of discussion, let's say that the number of "token" characters" a person A can tolerate is 2. And he complains to Jeff and Jeff introduces another character out of spite. Now, there is person B who was OK with 2, but 3 is too much for him. So now he complains to Jeff and Jeff makes another character so now there is 4. But, you have a person C who was OK with 3, but 4 is too much...

    you see the pattern? by expanding the number of characters you will eventually be pushing against the limits of more and more people who will again complain/bitch about it and cause the creation of more and more characters. In the end, nothing productive is being done other then creating new characters and stories around them whose sole purpose is to irritate certain people.
    Somewhat beside the main discussion but what do you understand under a token character? It doesn't mean minority characters, if you have a bunch of bi characters none of them is token because having many of something (with roles) goes against the meaning of the term token character (imo even should they be added because the author wanted more bi characters. Say an author things there should be more important woman and writes a story with a female only cast, calling them token would be silly. If they had no personality beyond that trait (imo in the case of QC even if you might not like the new characters they don't have less personality than the old one taking into account shorter cummulitative screen time) that might be a problem but I think token would still be the wrong term for that.) Well you could have token characters from a bunch of different minorities I guess.

    Just felt people were using token in weird ways.
    Last edited by Ibrinar; 2018-01-25 at 03:26 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    A "token character" is a character who is in a work simply to have a member of some group in that work, and is often either a cliche or cardboard.

    A fully realized character who happens to be of some group is not a token character. I can't think of any token characters in QC, really.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    *snip*
    Just felt people were using token in weird ways.
    yeah, I'm just trying to use it like it was referred to previously, nothing really behind the meaning. That is just an expression I use to shorten things without going into too wide explanations I could be called upon :D

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    A "token character" is a character who is in a work simply to have a member of some group in that work, and is often either a cliche or cardboard.

    A fully realized character who happens to be of some group is not a token character. I can't think of any token characters in QC, really.
    Pizza girl is a token super-heroine!

    Unless she's actually Penelope in which case there are none no.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    There was some argument that Tilly might have been one. QC's first and only asexual human who turned up unannounced, spent 3 days annoying a main character and was subsequently put on a bus to space from where they probably won't be back. This is not the repertoire of a character who is intended to because a long-term fixture in a subsequent plot line.

    Personally I found their cliche'd character and general attitude to be more annoying than anything to do with their gender, appearance or what not, but if any QC character was token - there just for the sake of being able to say that they were there - it's probably Tilly.

    And Pizza Girl isn't a token super hero! I'm pretty sure I remember that she had a nemesis at some point - Taco Belle, or something? Or am I thinking of the guest comic where her pet cat was wearing a cape and costume? This comic is so weird it's hard to remember which bizarre, deranged and utterly mental things that happen in it are 'real' or not.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2018-01-25 at 06:22 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    There was some argument that Tilly might have been one. QC's first and only asexual human who turned up unannounced, spent 3 days annoying a main character and was subsequently put on a bus to space from where they probably won't be back. This is not the repertoire of a character who is intended to because a long-term fixture in a subsequent plot line.

    Personally I found their cliche'd character and general attitude to be more annoying than anything to do with their gender, appearance or what not, but if any QC character was token - there just for the sake of being able to say that they were there - it's probably Tilly.

    And Pizza Girl isn't a token super hero! I'm pretty sure I remember that she had a nemesis at some point - Taco Belle, or something? Or am I thinking of the guest comic where her pet cat was wearing a cape and costume? This comic is so weird it's hard to remember which bizarre, deranged and utterly mental things that happen in it are 'real' or not.
    That was a guest comic by Milholland (Something*Positive creator) where Pizza Girl was sad that it looked like Faye wouldn't be becoming her sidekick any time soon. I recall a theoretical name being mentioned for Sidekick!Faye, but I don't recall what it was, and I don't recall if a villainous nemesis was mentioned either.


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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    There was some argument that Tilly might have been one. QC's first and only asexual human who turned up unannounced, spent 3 days annoying a main character and was subsequently put on a bus to space from where they probably won't be back. This is not the repertoire of a character who is intended to because a long-term fixture in a subsequent plot line.
    Tilly was some form of genderqueer. Asexual is something else.

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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Tokenism isn't the right word.. it's more like...what's that thing. when you say something like it's provocative and controversial but in reality you are just parroting the things your social group already believes? It's like this bland no-risk statement that doesn't accomplish anything.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    "Agender"?
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    "Agender"?
    Yeah, that's a thing.

    Gender identity has a very long history, and there have been multiple cultures that have gender identities outside the traditional binary of Western culture - anthropologists have been eating that stuff up for as long as they've been a field.

    People think this stuff is new, but it has a very long antiquity.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun View Post
    Yeah, that's a thing.

    Gender identity has a very long history, and there have been multiple cultures that have gender identities outside the traditional binary of Western culture - anthropologists have been eating that stuff up for as long as they've been a field.

    People think this stuff is new, but it has a very long antiquity.
    OK, I knew it was a thing, I just couldn't remember if that was the right (or a right) name for it.

    Some of the things I've read about "genders" that might be considered unconventional have been fascinating. Some cultures have tried to incorporate other points on the grid, so to speak, and some cultures (and not just the west, this is not a "evil Euro imperialist" nonsense thing) have tried very hard to shove everyone into exactly two little boxes.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    This comic's subtitle: SUBTLE, Amanda

    As subtle as a brick to the head, mayhaps.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    I think this clearly shows what i meant by acceptable limits.

    The so-called interloper understand that this is like Inception. The idea/epiphany has to come from Fayes herself. Anyone actually spelling out the potential relationship might cause interference.

    This is the limits of acceptable meddling. Someone outright stating that you would make a cute couple with Person X is going too far. Or even someone trying to manipulate you to spend time with Person X.

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    Tokenism isn't the right word.. it's more like...what's that thing. when you say something like it's provocative and controversial but in reality you are just parroting the things your social group already believes? It's like this bland no-risk statement that doesn't accomplish anything.
    What part of the comic does make you consider it as a provocative gesture?

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    Tilly was some form of genderqueer. Asexual is something else.
    I thought asexual was a form of genderqueer? Oh well; duly noted, I'm not trying to get hung up on labels, so long as you got the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111
    Tokenism isn't the right word.. it's more like...what's that thing. when you say something like it's provocative and controversial but in reality you are just parroting the things your social group already believes? It's like this bland no-risk statement that doesn't accomplish anything.
    I know it's not the word that you're looking for, but I'm quite confident that "meme" fits those criteria quite nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yana
    This comic's subtitle: SUBTLE, Amanda

    As subtle as a brick to the head, mayhaps.
    To me, it read like a cheesy Public Service Announcement. "You can like girls OR boys! Or neither! It's all just fine so long as you love someone!"

    One; For goodness' sake, Faye is best friends with Dora (bisexual), is friends with Tai (gay/poly), lives with Claire (trans), works with Bubbles (complicated) and has spent more than 5 minutes in Pintsize's presence (REALLY complicated)! She probably knows more about the LGBT+ spectrum than Amanda and Evie put together, why is she placidly sitting there letting a stranger explain it to her like grade school sex ed?

    Two; I really am starting to think that Jeph has begun writing his comic just to annoy people on Twitter. Given the issues that he's tackled previously in the comic and the reasonably sensitive and comprehensive way that he's done so, this is pretty lame writing and just feels like him baiting idiots, which isn't a particularly great story for the rest of us.

    Don't get me wrong, he's righteous and correct. I'm just tired of being spoon-fed the plot by characters who we've never seen before and, by the end of next week, we're probably not going to see again like a convenient exposition machine.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Not to harp on you or anything, but asexual would be the "not interested in that at all" that Evie was hinting at.

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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Also, as far as we know, only three characters are aware that Claire is trans: Marten, Clinton, and Bubbles. We can't assume that Faye knows.
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  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cribati View Post
    Tilly was some form of genderqueer. Asexual is something else.
    As I said at the time, we don't know what their gender or sexual identity is. They could simply be someone that finds the very existence of gendered pronouns detrimental to society and therefore would prefer neutral ones for all cases, even if they do have a gender or sexual identity that does have an assigned pronoun in English.

    Relevant:


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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2018-01-26 at 09:29 AM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    I think concerning Pintsize the relevant assumption is " there's no-one alive who can comprehend my sexual preference."
    With Pintsize, I just think he's doing like 90% of what he's doing to irritate people around him because he thinks it's funny. Who knows if he actually cares about sex, other than as a means to squick people.


    As for Eevie, yeah, this entire thing is weird. She's doing this based on... an hour with Faye and about 5 minutes with Bubbles? Waaaay out of line.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    As I said at the time, we don't know what their gender or sexual identity is. They could simply be someone that finds the very existence of gendered pronouns detrimental to society and therefore would prefer neutral ones for all cases, even if they do have a gender or sexual identity that does have an assigned pronoun in English.
    That's also possible. I even agree to the extent that we could really use a working, singular third person pronoun that doesn't assume gender/sex, and that doesn't sound awkward in some constructions because it's also a plural (they), and that doesn't at least imply that the person is an object (it).

    But it's also very useful to have pronouns that do differentiate in some way just for ease of conversation... when referring to two other people, just being able to keep things clear by saying "he" and "she" and "they" instead of "they" and "they" and "they" does wonders for avoiding confusion.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-26 at 09:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    As for Eevie, yeah, this entire thing is weird. She's doing this based on... an hour with Faye and about 5 minutes with Bubbles? Waaaay out of line.
    Plus whatever she and Faye's sister have deduced from Faye's communications with her sister. Reminds me a bit of a moment in A Miracle of Science
    "What does your mother's intuition tell you?"
    "Ninety percent of her [communications] has been about him"

    Faye may have been gushing about her robot friend for months to her sister, meaning they had a very good idea of what they were walking into before they even arrived.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    But it's also very useful to have pronouns that do differentiate in some way just for ease of conversation... when referring to two other people, just being able to keep things clear by saying "he" and "she" and "they" instead of "they" and "they" and "they" does wonders for avoiding confusion.
    English seems to manage fine in the second person despite only having the second person plural in use anymore. Using the same techniques for the third person is a natural next step.

    Also, I'm not trying to convince anyone to do it, just pointing out they might believe this and stick to their beliefs.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrinar View Post
    What part of the comic does make you consider it as a provocative gesture?
    Nothing, and that's kind of the problem. Maybe I'm explaining myself poorly. but it's the way its presented. LIke this page right here. Pretty much everyone reading this page, already knows about and agrees with everything being said, so...why are we saying it in the first place? It feels like he wants a gold star for having the "correct opinions" on social matters. I don't want to give him the satisfaction.

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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Plus whatever she and Faye's sister have deduced from Faye's communications with her sister. Reminds me a bit of a moment in A Miracle of Science
    "What does your mother's intuition tell you?"
    "Ninety percent of her [communications] has been about him"

    Faye may have been gushing about her robot friend for months to her sister, meaning they had a very good idea of what they were walking into before they even arrived.
    Or she could have said almost nothing beyond "I have a robot repair shop now, my business partner is a robot, how are you doing?"

    Faye didn't know about Evie at all, IIRC, so I don't think we can assume Amanda heard much about Bubbles, either.

    In general, I'm not a proponent of fan-speculation about what could have happened but was never shown in-fiction or even mentioned by the characters, as a way of justifying what we do see happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    English seems to manage fine in the second person despite only having the second person plural in use anymore. Using the same techniques for the third person is a natural next step.

    Also, I'm not trying to convince anyone to do it, just pointing out they might believe this and stick to their beliefs.
    I often find "you" causes problems, especially between the specific "you" and the general "you" (also not to be confused with General Hu).

    Sometimes I'm so concerned that someone will take a statement intended to be general ("When you do X, then Y results") as specific accusation ("You did X, so Y resulted.") that I'll fall back on "When one does X, then Y results." even though it sounds archaic to many readers these days.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-26 at 10:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub1111 View Post
    Nothing, and that's kind of the problem. Maybe I'm explaining myself poorly. but it's the way its presented. LIke this page right here. Pretty much everyone reading this page, already knows about and agrees with everything being said, so...why are we saying it in the first place? It feels like he wants a gold star for having the "correct opinions" on social matters. I don't want to give him the satisfaction.
    Eh, I don't think it's accurate or productive to assume that everything the characters do and say is the author trying to "say something".

    Sometimes the characters do or say something because that's what the characters would do or say in that situation.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Or she could have said almost nothing beyond "I have a robot repair shop now, my business partner is a robot, how are you doing?"

    Faye didn't know about Evie at all, IIRC, so I don't think we can assume Amanda heard much about Bubbles, either.

    In general, I'm not a proponent of fan-speculation about what could have happened but was never shown in-fiction or even mentioned by the characters, as a way of justifying what we do see happen.
    We know that Faye didn't know about Evie not because she and her sister don't discuss these matters, but because Faye only pays attention to phone calls, while her sister also uses PMs.

    Now, if you want everything spelled out for you before you accept it, fine, but leaving out routine, plausible communications because the author couldn't find a joke or a plot reason to include them is extremely common - just like we seldom see characters eating, unless like here it is part of the scenario. No-one would complain that {character} should be starving right now because we never see them eat. I am therefore also not willing to call out Evie as jumping to conclusions because I wouldn't be surprised if Faye had gushed over Bubbles without realising it over the phone, just as we have seen her give herself away more than once in this conversation alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    We know that Faye didn't know about Evie not because she and her sister don't discuss these matters, but because Faye only pays attention to phone calls, while her sister also uses PMs.

    Now, if you want everything spelled out for you before you accept it, fine, but leaving out routine, plausible communications because the author couldn't find a joke or a plot reason to include them is extremely common - just like we seldom see characters eating, unless like here it is part of the scenario. No-one would complain that {character} should be starving right now because we never see them eat. I am therefore also not willing to call out Evie as jumping to conclusions because I wouldn't be surprised if Faye had gushed over Bubbles without realising it over the phone, just as we have seen her give herself away more than once in this conversation alone.
    OK, fair, I'd forgotten about the phone calls and PMs thing.

    (And as someone who flatly refuses to touch Facebook, etc, I sympathize with Faye -- I still miss out on some things because certain friends assume without thought that "everyone has Facebook now" no matter how often it comes up that I do not.)
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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