Why do people like the Joker?

[Nettlekid]

I'm talking about the character in general, not any specific version (although if a specific version is useful to illustrate a point then it's fair game.) I'm not the most knowledgeable about comic lore, but it seems to me like the Joker is an example of everything that people usually hate in a villainous character. He doesn't seem to have any specific motivation, he does things "because he wants to" (a line dreaded by DMs of Chaotic Stupid characters everywhere) and he doesn't even have a concrete backstory to justify his villainy. What about him makes him so idolized as an iconic villain, one of the greatest in comic book history? I just don't understand it.

[The Fury]

I think it has to do mainly with the versatility of the character. He can be either a wacky goofball with novelty gags or a homicidal maniac. There's even versions that go back and forth between the two, (I think this is one of the reasons the Animated Series version is so well-regarded.)

If the Joker ever really had a character-defining motivation, I'd say that it's that he wants to bring humanity face to face with its own darker side, or otherwise demonstrate that the world is just as cracked as he is. At least it seems that way since The Killing Joke.

[BWR]

He's liked because he is an absolute monster, because his motives are unclear beyond 'for the cruel lulz' and an obsession with Batman, because he's an enigma with an unknown backstory.
Speaking for myself, and I would not be surprised if others felt this way, having good villainous motivations and tragic backstories and whatnot are not necessary for making a good villain. Simply being truly villainous is reason enough. Backstory for evil behavior are meant to make us empathize to a degree with someone, which in some way makes us like a character even if they are horrible people. While it can work well, it is also a sort of cheat, by trying to make you sympathize with a character and thus like them even if they are kind of boring and uninspired without the explanation for their personality. While there are versions of the Joker where we have some sort of backstory, the core is simply that he is brilliant, cruel and pure evil and anything he was before is entirely irrelevant, and that is enough to enjoy the sheer monstrosity of his character.

[Darth Ultron]

I think people just like the Escape of Cool Crazy Evil.

Most people are super boring...so much that it is there super power. They don't take chances or risks and are really, really, really too comfortable in their very comfortable zones. And even when they do something..barley...it's more all about the safety then anything else like having a good time or fun. And yes ''doing X'' can be dangerous, but that is half of the point. Few people even do anything even slightly outside the rules and laws and lines of society....but sure that makes them good citizens.

But all those people do dream and think about the ''what if''....what if they were crazy evil. Then they would have the pure freedom to do anything. And that is a great fantasy. And the Joker is the Star of that fantasy. And that makes for the perfect escape.

[KillingAScarab]

Because he drives Batman. LEGO Batman said it best.

Spoiler

Show

You're the reason I get up at 4 o'clock in the afternoon and pump iron until my chest is absolutely sick.

[Clertar]

1. Because it's too entrenched in the canon. Fans can justify any narrative inconsistency if it's perceived as canonical enough.

2. It's such a blank slate that it can be rewritten left and right. DC fans, and especially Batman and Superman fans, love a "reimagining" much better than story progression. A character with endless "what if..." potential is the best that can happen to them.

I wonder that myself. It's the most uninteresting character, and it only works in the more cartoony incarnations of Batman.

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm talking about the character in general, not any specific version (although if a specific version is useful to illustrate a point then it's fair game.) I'm not the most knowledgeable about comic lore, but it seems to me like the Joker is an example of everything that people usually hate in a villainous character. He doesn't seem to have any specific motivation, he does things "because he wants to" (a line dreaded by DMs of Chaotic Stupid characters everywhere) and he doesn't even have a concrete backstory to justify his villainy. What about him makes him so idolized as an iconic villain, one of the greatest in comic book history? I just don't understand it.

I get this to a large extent as well- even the Mark Hamill and Heath Ledger versions just never quite clicked with me- they seemed more like moustache-twirling constructs than fleshed-out human beings. The only versions that did are from The Dark Knight Returns and Lee and Azzarello's Joker.

The former is the only version of the character that legitimately scares me. He's a bit of a blank in terms of background, but Miller takes the whole 'lives to gleefully screw with Batman' angle and just dials it up to eleven. So I don't think that particular take will ever be improved on.

The second manages to hint at a certain measure of twisted pathos to the character, buried under layers of pique and hate and tortured insecurity, far better than The Killing Joke ever does, in my not so humble opinion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I liked him in the 1989 Batman movie because Batman was boring, and his girlfriend was boring and it's only Jack Nicholson that makes the movie watchable.

Whether this can be extrapolated to the rest of batman, I cannot say authoritatively, but I suggest it as a hypothesis: that the Joker is at least a bit of fun in what is otherwise a rather dour set of characters all around.

GW

[Dr.Samurai]

Good question. I've never really understood the love for the Joker either, or the dichotomy they say exists between him and Batman.

[JoshL]

Part of the appeal is the contrast with Batman. Order vs Chaos. Logic vs Unpredictability. Discipline vs Just Winging It. Overseriousness vs Humor. Etc, etc. He is in every way the anti-Batman, and that gives another way to show character in Bats, through both the actions of the Joker, and by how he responds to him.

[2D8HP]

Why do people like the Joker?....

...What about him makes him so idolized as an iconic villain, one of the greatest in comic book history? I just don't understand it.

.
Do they like the Joker?

I thought most people just liked to see him defeated, he definitely reminds me of some bad "How dare you duck when I throw things at you" bosses I've had.

I suppose some people like the Joker because it's a big world with a lot of people and somewhere there's someone who will like most anything.

[Lacuna Caster]

Part of the appeal is the contrast with Batman. Order vs Chaos. Logic vs Unpredictability. Discipline vs Just Winging It. Overseriousness vs Humor. Etc, etc. He is in every way the anti-Batman, and that gives another way to show character in Bats, through both the actions of the Joker, and by how he responds to him.

There is that, yes. A major part of the Batman franchise's appeal is the, ah, 'thematic symmetry' of his rogue's gallery.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I don't read comics, or really am terribly familiar with the Joker or Batman lore, but here's something I like.

The character enables bits of dialog like this to happen.

[Donnadogsoth]

I'm talking about the character in general, not any specific version (although if a specific version is useful to illustrate a point then it's fair game.) I'm not the most knowledgeable about comic lore, but it seems to me like the Joker is an example of everything that people usually hate in a villainous character. He doesn't seem to have any specific motivation, he does things "because he wants to" (a line dreaded by DMs of Chaotic Stupid characters everywhere) and he doesn't even have a concrete backstory to justify his villainy. What about him makes him so idolized as an iconic villain, one of the greatest in comic book history? I just don't understand it.

The Joker is despair. When one has lost everything the result is laughter. Hell is full of laughter.

As such the Joker embodies the Free Man archetype. He does as he pleases and breezes through the rules and constraints affecting mere mortals. Who doesn't envy that?

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, I don't get that. He's the ultimate "free man", but he is obsessed with Batman, so not really. Or he is the ultimate "free man", which is portrayed as insane, murderous, and psychotic.

He is chaos and disorder, but his plans are even more complex and involved than Batman's.

It's okay to say "Do I look like a man with a plan to you?", but he's just pretending. He very clearly has plans. He very obviously prepares things ahead of time. The Joker is a mastermind, as opposed to the fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants maniac that people often say he is.

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeah, I don't get that. He's the ultimate "free man", but he is obsessed with Batman, so not really. Or he is the ultimate "free man", which is portrayed as insane, murderous, and psychotic.

He is chaos and disorder, but his plans are even more complex and involved than Batman's.

It's okay to say "Do I look like a man with a plan to you?", but he's just pretending. He very clearly has plans. He very obviously prepares things ahead of time. The Joker is a mastermind, as opposed to the fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants maniac that people often say he is.

Eh... the fact the Joker is willing to execute plans in order to increase net disorder in the world isn't any more intrinsically contradictory than Batman circumventing the law in order to increase net justice. It all depends on the results you get.

I do agree that the "Free Man" aspect is puzzling, though. If the ideal of self-actualisation is to just not allow anything to get in the way of your ambitions, sure, that's pretty Evil, but that's closer to Lex Luthor. The 'man driven mad by the absurdity of existence' is closer to Deadpool- violent and destructive, but not malicious per se.

[Calemyr]

Yeah, I don't get that. He's the ultimate "free man", but he is obsessed with Batman, so not really. Or he is the ultimate "free man", which is portrayed as insane, murderous, and psychotic.

He is chaos and disorder, but his plans are even more complex and involved than Batman's.

It's okay to say "Do I look like a man with a plan to you?", but he's just pretending. He very clearly has plans. He very obviously prepares things ahead of time. The Joker is a mastermind, as opposed to the fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants maniac that people often say he is.

I think a lot of it comes down to what you mean by "plan". Because in one sense the Joker is an excellent planner, and in another he doesn't bother at all. The Joker doesn't think in grand schemes, he thinks in more episodic stunts. Robbing a bank, extracting a prisoner, various attempts to unmask or otherwise break Batman. Explicit goals with a short lifespan and a finite scope. These stunts he plans out to a T, getting the right people at the right place at the right time, but the stunts themselves aren't usually part of some greater scheme beyond chaos, his own amusement, and screwing with the Bat. Actually, all three goals could fit under the "his own amusement" heading. There never was a grand plan. Even the common motivation of money didn't mean anything to him beyond a convenient gauge to measure how much he was hurting the mob, which only fueled his amusement. Of course, that's just the Heath Ledger Joker. The Joker is so inconsistently portrayed it's difficult to make any statements more comprehensive than that.

The fact that he's portrayed with such variation is, I think, part of his popularity. Whether it's the clown, the gangster, or the philosopher, the Joker covers enough ground that there's likely an incarnation that appeals to you. It's certainly helped by the fact that most of the voiced portrayals of the character are done with such an infectious enthusiasm that it can be very hard not to caught up in it yourself.

Beyond that, I find there's usually the fact that the Joker, no matter how he's portrayed, tends to embody "wrong done right". He is confident, he is competent, he is clever, he finds enjoyment in everything he does, and does everything (even losing) with such idiosyncratic style. No matter the portrayal, the Joker is a consummate showman who relishes the impact he'll have on the audience, even if that audience is just a deranged orphan dressed like a blind, flying mammal. As a result, he tends to be fun to watch, like any good showman.

[Traab]

I think a lot of it comes down to what you mean by "plan". Because in one sense the Joker is an excellent planner, and in another he doesn't bother at all. The Joker doesn't think in grand schemes, he thinks in more episodic stunts. Robbing a bank, extracting a prisoner, various attempts to unmask or otherwise break Batman. Explicit goals with a short lifespan and a finite scope. These stunts he plans out to a T, getting the right people at the right place at the right time, but the stunts themselves aren't usually part of some greater scheme beyond chaos, his own amusement, and screwing with the Bat. Actually, all three goals could fit under the "his own amusement" heading. There never was a grand plan. Even the common motivation of money didn't mean anything to him beyond a convenient gauge to measure how much he was hurting the mob, which only fueled his amusement. Of course, that's just the Heath Ledger Joker. The Joker is so inconsistently portrayed it's difficult to make any statements more comprehensive than that.

The fact that he's portrayed with such variation is, I think, part of his popularity. Whether it's the clown, the gangster, or the philosopher, the Joker covers enough ground that there's likely an incarnation that appeals to you. It's certainly helped by the fact that most of the voiced portrayals of the character are done with such an infectious enthusiasm that it can be very hard not to caught up in it yourself.

Beyond that, I find there's usually the fact that the Joker, no matter how he's portrayed, tends to embody "wrong done right". He is confident, he is competent, he is clever, he finds enjoyment in everything he does, and does everything (even losing) with such idiosyncratic style. No matter the portrayal, the Joker is a consummate showman who relishes the impact he'll have on the audience, even if that audience is just a deranged orphan dressed like a blind, flying mammal. As a result, he tends to be fun to watch, like any good showman.

The heath ledger joker had an ABSURDLY complex and complicated plan that involved pinpoint precision spread out among dozens of goons and carefully predicting responses of numerous people whose day he wanted to ruin. There was absolutely nothing random about anything he tried in that film. Even the bank robbery at the start was timed to perfection like a swiss watch.

[Dr.Samurai]

Eh... the fact the Joker is willing to execute plans in order to increase net disorder in the world isn't any more intrinsically contradictory than Batman circumventing the law in order to increase net justice. It all depends on the results you get.

Well, I agree. But my point was more to the notion that the Joker flies by the seat of his pants as some agent of chaos that can't be predicted. He clearly doesn't. His tech/planning/preparation rivals Batman's. You can't predict what he is going to do in so far as you never know when any one of your rogue's gallery is going to commit their crime.

I think a lot of it comes down to what you mean by "plan". Because in one sense the Joker is an excellent planner, and in another he doesn't bother at all. The Joker doesn't think in grand schemes, he thinks in more episodic stunts.

Well, if we're sticking to that quote, the Joker in The Dark Knight movie is very much a grand schemer. There are a lot of moving parts in play and he's moving them all. The hospitals, the ferries, the mob, Gordon's assassination, the bank robbery, the escape from the prison, etc. He is easily scheming and plotting and prepping more than any other character in the trilogy. Everything is timed and pulled off without a hitch (until the end).

In the animated series he pulls off all sorts of crazy intricate plans. In comics, we have The Killing Joke, where I'd call buying an entire amusement park and setting it up for the sole purpose of psychologically destroying one man a grand scheme. There's End Game where he gains control of the Justice League and manipulates Batman to march to his death. I think he's the mastermind behind the Arkham video games as well (haven't played them though).

So, I don't know. To me, the Joker seems more like a mastermind villain than some zany wacky avatar of chaos. He's just a guy that likes torturing Batman, and his obsession seems like a concession of agency that makes him less interesting to me.

Beyond that, I find there's usually the fact that the Joker, no matter how he's portrayed, tends to embody "wrong done right".

Oof, yeah, I totally don't agree . As far as villains go, the Joker has never rated very high for me. Which is nuts because he usually rates extremely high on top villains lists right? He embodies "you complete me" villainy, which I don't care for. He's the yin to Batman's yang, or whatever. I can't really get behind that motivation, so he's never really excited me.

All that said, I'm going to contradict myself a little here and say that I loved Ledger's portrayal of the character.

[Peelee]

I think he's the mastermind behind the Arkham video games as well (haven't played them though).

You should; they're delightful. Without spoiling anything in any of the games, the Joker is the mastermind of the first, yes (you find that out at just about the very beginning).

[Lacuna Caster]

The heath ledger joker had an ABSURDLY complex and complicated plan that involved pinpoint precision spread out among dozens of goons and carefully predicting responses of numerous people whose day he wanted to ruin. There was absolutely nothing random about anything he tried in that film. Even the bank robbery at the start was timed to perfection like a swiss watch.

Right down to the level where he can stand in the middle of a police station and be somehow untouched by a bomb that floors everyone standing around him, apparently.

To be fair, how in the hell Commissioner Gordon could predict that the assassin's bullet would take that precise trajectory is beyond me.

[Donnadogsoth]

Yeah, I don't get that. He's the ultimate "free man", but he is obsessed with Batman, so not really. Or he is the ultimate "free man", which is portrayed as insane, murderous, and psychotic.

He is chaos and disorder, but his plans are even more complex and involved than Batman's.

It's okay to say "Do I look like a man with a plan to you?", but he's just pretending. He very clearly has plans. He very obviously prepares things ahead of time. The Joker is a mastermind, as opposed to the fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants maniac that people often say he is.

He's obsessed with breathing, too, is he less free for it? Just because someone has goals doesn't mean they're unfree.

[DomaDoma]

I just hopped to YouTube assuming this music video existed, and was not disappointed:

[KillingAScarab]

...even if that audience is just a deranged orphan dressed like a blind, flying mammal...

Even insectivorous bats aren't blind, though they rely greatly on echolocation. And the nectar and fruit-eating varieties are highly dependent upon sight.

I just hopped to YouTube assuming this music video existed, and was not disappointed:

Since I first heard the song when used for by CJ Collins' Kefka, that brings me back to his parody of the interrogation room scene from Nolan's Dark Knight. Cloud, Sephiroth and Kefka all pounding on a table yelling, "Where is she?!" looking for three different people.

[Calemyr]

Well, if we're sticking to that quote, the Joker in The Dark Knight movie is very much a grand schemer. There are a lot of moving parts in play and he's moving them all. The hospitals, the ferries, the mob, Gordon's assassination, the bank robbery, the escape from the prison, etc. He is easily scheming and plotting and prepping more than any other character in the trilogy. Everything is timed and pulled off without a hitch (until the end).

In the animated series he pulls off all sorts of crazy intricate plans. In comics, we have The Killing Joke, where I'd call buying an entire amusement park and setting it up for the sole purpose of psychologically destroying one man a grand scheme. There's End Game where he gains control of the Justice League and manipulates Batman to march to his death. I think he's the mastermind behind the Arkham video games as well (haven't played them though).

So, I don't know. To me, the Joker seems more like a mastermind villain than some zany wacky avatar of chaos. He's just a guy that likes torturing Batman, and his obsession seems like a concession of agency that makes him less interesting to me.

I would reiterate that my statement was about the Heath Ledger incarnation. Mark Hamil's version was more the gangster archetype, and with that does come more of a mastermind mentality. Ledger's, however, was just a series of jobs, each committed in a unique and creative way. Granted, a lot of those jobs had one particular goal in mind, harassing and prodding Batman, but that was a shared objective over several small plans, not a grand plan. Besides their conflicting stated objectives ("Would the real Batman stand up?" "New deal: kill the snitch."), there's the fact that the Joker's games were largely centered off of brand new information that couldn't have been factored into a larger plan. The "lady and the DA" gambit, for instance, was done because of Batman jumping out a window to save Rachel. That little reaction gave him a new chink to exploit and he wanted to see what would happen. In short order, he worked it into his scheme to collect the accountant from prison for the mob... so he could set his half of the earnings on fire in front of them. Because his long term goal, always, is to screw with peoples' heads. Whether it's Batman, Dent, the mob, the media, or the populace, that's always the ultimate objective for that incarnation of the Joker.

And it's cool if you don't find Joker fun or funny, you know? I wasn't trying to convince you, I was merely trying to propose an explanation why he's so popular: A) He's get a very diverse representation. B) He's typically portrayed with infectious enthusiasm. C) He does everything with panache. It may not float your boat, but there's enough water there buoy an armada.

[Bohandas]

He's wise, in a way no other supervillain is.

[Crow]

Have you ever known one of those people who was just dangerous to be around? Have you ever had to deal with a violent offender from a mental hospital? There is something about knowing that the person you are dealing with can go from zero to deadly force in an instant, with no warning whatsoever. Just being around those people will have you feeling as if you are balancing on the edge of a razor. Every time somebody interacts with that person, you brace yourself for what is going to happen; and of course, you can't relax a bit, because that person may decide to do something crazy with no provocation whatsoever. Then add to this recipe that the person is a highly intelligent, manipulative, long-term thinker, and the threat skyrockets.

There is an inscrutability in the actions of a highly intelligent, but deranged individual that makes those people intensely interesting to an outside observer. I think that is one of the big draws of the Joker.

[Kitten Champion]

I think a large part of it is simply being defined as the nemesis to Batman. As in, because of that and Batman's prominence, he's been written far more prolifically and by some talented individuals which has created a legacy of works - that, rather than actual canon - have given the character weight and life. Then there's Mark Hamill who's performance on that character is among the most widely regarded for a VA in a Western work outside of The Simpsons, and is certainly memorable.

Though, he's not the type of villain I'm especially fond of - I don't particularly like any villainy-from-psychosis character - and the WB apparently planning multiple Joker-centric movies does baffle me somewhat.

[Gnoman]

You have to look at the Joker in the context of Batman villains as a whole. Most of them are solidly developed, and over the years have had sympathetic (or at least understandable) motivations grafted on. That's a good thing, and one of the things DC has always excelled at. Still, you need a counterpoint to these, a complete and total monster for your superhero to beat up - which the Joker provides. He is Chaos incarnate, and often epitomizes Evil as well. Very few people (outside of teenage edgelords) is going to look at the Joker's actions and think "I could totally see myself doing that in those circumstances" - so it gives Batman just enough black-and-white morality to justify his existence.

[Metahuman1]

There's also this to consider. There are a lot of villains out there who want to completely control, completely dominate, and to rule with absolute authority and systemic power. Lex Luthor, Ra's Al Ghoul, Vandal Savage, Depending on the writing sometimes Bane, The Mad Hatter, The Riddler, I could go on.




But the Joker stands out because he's sort of his own thing. He's an anarchist, to the point that his personality warps wildly form time to time. He's an actual opposite to a villain who wants world domination, but still firmly a villain.