Mystic Theurge - Build and Conversation

[AnimeTheCat]

So, I know many people come on these forums asking to optimize their characters to a party, but my questions is a little of the opposite.

The mystic theurge (or other theurge type classes) are widely considered inferior to a single classed (or prestige classed) spellcaster of the same ECL. I agree, as level 4 spells are better than lots of level 2 spells from two lists. What I think is that a Theurge would be really nice to have in a party that is geared to be played around the power level of initiators, meldshapers, and fixed "lesser" spellcasters (like bards that don't use Sublime Chord to get 9th level spells). I think that due to the split casting stat and delayed progression of each spellcasting class, such a character would be more suited for a party of a Barbarian, Warlock, and Fighter.

What does the playground think?

All opinions are welcome, but bear in mind I'm not saying that a theurge class is on the same level entirely as a barbarian, warlock, fighter, bard etc. Just that I think the power of a theurge is more suited for that power level of play.

EDIT:
So, I didn't originally intend to post a build, but I decided that I enjoy the opinions of others and that I'm sure there's something I missed. I'll Spoil things to reduce wall of text syndrome.

Spoiler: The Party

Show

The party will consist of:
Homebrewed Firbolg Barbarian 2-handing a Dwarven Waraxe, No Exotic Weapon Proficiency AFAIK
Half-Orc Fighter, 2-handing Greataxe - Fairly certain will be power attacking
Human (I think) Warlock - No insight into build idea sadly...

I plan on playing a Gray Elf Generalist Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 4. My decision is based on the lack of a true arcane spellcaster and a divine spellcaster,
the fact that I haven't played in a game in a incredibly long time, I've rarely (if ever) gotten to play a cleric or wizard, and I've never had a good excuse to play a Mystic Theurge. My goal is to reduce the overbearing power of the wizard and cleric classes and serve as a force equalizer as opposed to an overdeity that can't be touched or challenged.

Spoiler: My Most Likely Build

Show

As I said when I talked about the party and my plan, I am playing a Elf Generalist Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/True Necromancer 4. My deity will be Wee Jas because I go hard style and actually worship a deity as a cleric. My aim is to emualte Wee Jas as much as possible and I used Deities and Demigods to get my basis of information.
The DM is using 32 point buy. My stat allocation at level 1, after racial modifiers, is:
Str - 6
Dex - 14
Con - 12
Int - 16
Wis - 16
Cha - 14
I don't want to dump Charisma, Wee Jas is commonly considered to be beautiful and elegant and no matter what way you cut it, its easier to do that when the ability scores reflect it. Also, Rebuke Undead attempts are going to be useful and fun to use.

The build will go as follows:
Level. Class - Feats/Class Abilities - Skills
1. Elf Generalist Wizard - Collegiate Wizard (CA pg 181), Scribe Scroll/Summon Familiar, General Wizardry - Concentration 4, Spellcraft 4, Kn (Arcana) 4, Kn (Religion) 4, Kn (History) 4
2. Cloistered Cleric - none/Turn Undead, Lore, Domains(Knowledge, Death, Magic or Domination) - Concentration 5, Spellcraft 5, Kn (arcana) 5, Kn (religion) 5, Kn (History) 5, Heal 4
3. Wizard - Spontaneous Healer/none - Concentration 6, Spellcraft 6, Kn (Arcana) 6, Kn (Religion) 6, Kn (History) 6, Heal 4
4. Cloistered Cleric - none/none - Concentration 7, Spellcraft 7, Kn (Arcana) 7, Kn (Religion) 7, Kn (History) 7, Heal 4, Decipher Script 4
5. Wizard - none/none - Concentration 8, Spellcraft 8, Kn (Arcana) 8, Kn (Religion) 8, Kn (History) 8, Heal 4, Decipher Script 4
6. Cloistered Cleric - Brew Potion/none - Concentration 9, Spellcraft 9, Kn (Arcana) 9, Kn (Religion) 9, Kn (History) 9, Heal 4, Deicpher Script 8
7. Mystic Theurge - none/none - Concentration 10, Spellcraft 10, Kn (Arcana) 10, Kn (Religion) 10, Kn (History) 9, Heal 4, Deicpher Script 9

Only Including 7 levels as of now because that is the highest I can be sure the game will go to. Collegiate wizard is simply to maximize my class granted spells known. I am unsure of how common scrolls or spellbooks will be so this is not only precautionary, but it also thematically fits the vision of the character.

Any thoughts are welcome on the build. I'm always interested in learning something new or getting help pointing out something I've missed. I do want to keep myself "powered down" to meet the party's power level though, so i'm not looking for power play options.

[Psyren]

Sure, this kind of handicap is fine if you go into it with eyes open. As you noted your power level will be lower than that of a single-classed caster, but when you're surrounded by other low-tier classes then you will still likely be the party's powerhouse.

The tough part though will be finishing your theurge if you go to level 20. It sounds like dual 9s is not a major concern for you, but folks here like to shoot for it anyway as it just feels elegant (among other reasons).

[Ellrin]

So, I know many people come on these forums asking to optimize their characters to a party, but my questions is a little of the opposite.

The mystic theurge (or other theurge type classes) are widely considered inferior to a single classed (or prestige classed) spellcaster of the same ECL. I agree, as level 4 spells are better than lots of level 2 spells from two lists. What I think is that a Theurge would be really nice to have in a party that is geared to be played around the power level of initiators, meldshapers, and fixed "lesser" spellcasters (like bards that don't use Sublime Chord to get 9th level spells). I think that due to the split casting stat and delayed progression of each spellcasting class, such a character would be more suited for a party of a Barbarian, Warlock, and Fighter.

What does the playground think?

All opinions are welcome, but bear in mind I'm not saying that a theurge class is on the same level entirely as a barbarian, warlock, fighter, bard etc. Just that I think the power of a theurge is more suited for that power level of play.

Like Psyren said, if you're theurging two classes that normally get 9th level spells, you're still going to have more power potential than any class or combination of classes that wouldn't normally get 9ths for most of your career. Even without any other casting tacked onto it, a well-built, well-played 8th level sorcerer is going to generally perform at least as well as,and in more situations than, a similarly well-built 12th level bard (assuming no sublime chord) or warblade, and power is just going to skew further in favor of that sorcerer as the party's level increases, even assuming that same 4-level gap.

Obviously the gulf is diminished somewhat, but ultimately a tier one or two caster is still a tier one or two caster, even at lower levels than your typical tier threes.

[AnimeTheCat]

I don't personally find 9th level spells that fun to use nor do I find play at levels 17+ much fun. The game seems to miss the fun roleplaying aspects that it does around lower levels. So yeah, 9th level spells aren't the goal really. My personal favorite level to end on is around level 12-14. It feels, to me, like a natural power peak for most characters and it feels pretty epic in play with the parties I've played with.

It's very unlikely that a mystic theurge at the tables I play or DM would see play above level 16, so progressing beyond the boundaries of MT would be unlikely.

EDIT:

Like Psyren said, if you're theurging two classes that normally get 9th level spells, you're still going to have more power potential than any class or combination of classes that wouldn't normally get 9ths for most of your career. Even without any other casting tacked onto it, a well-built, well-played 8th level sorcerer is going to generally perform at least as well as,and in more situations than, a similarly well-built 12th level bard (assuming no sublime chord) or warblade, and power is just going to skew further in favor of that sorcerer as the party's level increases, even assuming that same 4-level gap.

Obviously the gulf is diminished somewhat, but ultimately a tier one or two caster is still a tier one or two caster, even at lower levels than your typical tier threes.

In my mind, my perfect MT would have a blend of debuff and BFC from the wizard side with buffing and restorative magic from the cleric side and be the big cog in the party wheel. I know that this character would be a binding glue, and that would feel pretty good to me I think, as a player.

Also, I haven't gotten to play a wizard or cleric in so long, I would love the chance to play the two simultaneously... LN Mystic Theurge of WeeJas... Seems fun to me!

[Psyren]

It would certainly be fun, and I would like to play such a character too. I'd be careful though about even suggesting that high level spells inhibit roleplay (the two are unrelated.)

If you did want to tone yourself down further, there are other "theurge" builds that end up weaker than combining two T1 classes, like Noctumancer, Soulcaster and Chameleon. There is, as mentioned, quite a lot of daylight between a MT and the other classes in this party - not that it matters if the MT in question avoids hogging the spotlight.

[Ramza00]

I love early entry theurges.

For example the illuminan race with the feat Improved Sigil Krau. This allow Wizard 1/ Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 10. Furthermore you can then add focused specialist wizard and uncanny forethought. So many spell slots, and so much flexibility.

Same thing with Psion 3/Wizard 1/Cerbremancer 10 with Improved Sigil Krau and the Illuminan Race, or you could choose instead Precocious Apprentice (Wizard). You are a normal psion but with some of the flexibility that spells allow.

[Fizban]

All opinions are welcome, but bear in mind I'm not saying that a theurge class is on the same level entirely as a barbarian, warlock, fighter, bard etc. Just that I think the power of a theurge is more suited for that power level of play.

Actually the standard Mystic Theurge build is about exactly on the same level as a bard, until its better. Try actually building out wiz 3/cleric 3/theurge X and see how many spell slots it gets compared to a Bard. There's exactly one level at 7th where the MT lacks 3rd level spells and the 16+ cha bard has exactly one, then the MT surges back into the lead and holds it forever. Bonus spells (for ability, domain, and even specialization) across two progressions is actually pretty huge. And the MT pays for it with less skills, BAB, armor, and no bardic music (which is only huge with a bunch of splat stacking anyway). It's actually very well balanced.

Note that if your Cleric role is being served by a Mystic Theurge, you're going to have delays in your Cleric role. Later access to Magic Circle, Remove Disease, Curse, Restoration, Break Enchantment, Heal, less ability to spam Death Ward or Freedom of Movement over the whole party, and so on. This means that if your DM isn't paying attention, you'll have more situations where a monster that expects a certain clerical counter and you won't be able to counter it, an increase in lethality as things that are easy if handled properly are less properly handled. Some spells can come out of the wizard side obviously, and you can just hope that more offense will do the trick (it is the favored solution of char-op), but if the MT is both your cleric and your crowd-control, then both roles are 3 levels behind and tied to the same action pool.

One could probably get away with treating a party with 3 core mundanes and an MT as a full level lower, two if they aren't good at running those mundanes. If the rest of the party is "tier 3" magic people and martial initiators, no reduction.

[AnimeTheCat]

It would certainly be fun, and I would like to play such a character too. I'd be careful though about even suggesting that high level spells inhibit roleplay (the two are unrelated.)

If you did want to tone yourself down further, there are other "theurge" builds that end up weaker than combining two T1 classes, like Noctumancer, Soulcaster and Chameleon. There is, as mentioned, quite a lot of daylight between a MT and the other classes in this party - not that it matters if the MT in question avoids hogging the spotlight.

Hmm... I guess I see where you thought I suggested that, but what I was implying wasn't in reference to the spells. It was more a reference to things not feeling that epic to me. Its one thing for a party to fight a dragon at party level 7. It will likely not be an easy fight and everyone will play a role in the defeat of the dragon. High levels of play lack the "Play" that I enjoy, which is grinding through things and being put into conventional danger. For a high level party to be put in danger, you need to really really try, and that (in my humble opinion) isn't as fun. Nothing against the spells or anything, it's just too much everything for my taste.

I love early entry theurges.

For example the illuminan race with the feat Improved Sigil Krau. This allow Wizard 1/ Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 10. Furthermore you can then add focused specialist wizard and uncanny forethought. So many spell slots, and so much flexibility.

Same thing with Psion 3/Wizard 1/Cerbremancer 10 with Improved Sigil Krau and the Illuminan Race, or you could choose instead Precocious Apprentice (Wizard). You are a normal psion but with some of the flexibility that spells allow.

I've been interested by a cerebremancer build. It was a toss up between picking a MT or a CM. I ended up going with a MT because the DM has had some bad personal experiences with psionics and I just want to respect it and leave that be. I thought about trying Illuman as my race, but I decided against it for various reasons (not the least of which was that in the DM's world the Illumans were actually persecuted and slaughtered by an organization trying to make a many headed god out of all of the illuman corpses...)

Actually the standard Mystic Theurge build is about exactly on the same level as a bard, until its better. Try actually building out wiz 3/cleric 3/theurge X and see how many spell slots it gets compared to a Bard. There's exactly one level at 7th where the MT lacks 3rd level spells and the 16+ cha bard has exactly one, then the MT surges back into the lead and holds it forever. Bonus spells (for ability, domain, and even specialization) across two progressions is actually pretty huge. And the MT pays for it with less skills, BAB, armor, and no bardic music (which is only huge with a bunch of splat stacking anyway). It's actually very well balanced.

Note that if your Cleric role is being served by a Mystic Theurge, you're going to have delays in your Cleric role. Later access to Magic Circle, Remove Disease, Curse, Restoration, Break Enchantment, Heal, less ability to spam Death Ward or Freedom of Movement over the whole party, and so on. This means that if your DM isn't paying attention, you'll have more situations where a monster that expects a certain clerical counter and you won't be able to counter it, an increase in lethality as things that are easy if handled properly are less properly handled. Some spells can come out of the wizard side obviously, and you can just hope that more offense will do the trick (it is the favored solution of char-op), but if the MT is both your cleric and your crowd-control, then both roles are 3 levels behind and tied to the same action pool.

One could probably get away with treating a party with 3 core mundanes and an MT as a full level lower, two if they aren't good at running those mundanes. If the rest of the party is "tier 3" magic people and martial initiators, no reduction.

Oh, I wasn't planning on using Precocious Apprentice on the Wizard side at all. In fact, simply because I'm just trying to hoard spells for flexibility, I'm planning on being an elven generalist with the Collegiate Wizard feat from Complete Arcane to maximize the number of spells I innately learn. I will not be using the domain wizard variant because I think it goes against the spirit of the elven generalist racial substitution levels, so it's a personal choice. Most of my spells will be geared towards negatively affecting the enemy's ability to perform their desired action, or bolstering my ally's ability to do what they want to do. Also, I do plan on taking item creation feats like brew potion because the DM is pretty leniant on the XP costs of these items and the party as a whole can use them. Also, yeah, so that I will be a little behind the XP train and will further serve not to overshadow the remainder of the party.

[Groundhogs]

I keep wanting to make a bard/druid with that special multiclass prc. It's not going to work out so well, though.

[Psyren]

Hmm... I guess I see where you thought I suggested that, but what I was implying wasn't in reference to the spells. It was more a reference to things not feeling that epic to me. Its one thing for a party to fight a dragon at party level 7. It will likely not be an easy fight and everyone will play a role in the defeat of the dragon. High levels of play lack the "Play" that I enjoy, which is grinding through things and being put into conventional danger. For a high level party to be put in danger, you need to really really try, and that (in my humble opinion) isn't as fun. Nothing against the spells or anything, it's just too much everything for my taste.

I definitely understand what you're saying, but the counterpoint is that the high-level party can take on three dragons, or perhaps an evil archmage with a dragon-controlling orb, and that can feel pretty damn epic too. That's why I ultimately disagree.

I've been interested by a cerebremancer build. It was a toss up between picking a MT or a CM. I ended up going with a MT because the DM has had some bad personal experiences with psionics and I just want to respect it and leave that be. I thought about trying Illuman as my race, but I decided against it for various reasons (not the least of which was that in the DM's world the Illumans were actually persecuted and slaughtered by an organization trying to make a many headed god out of all of the illuman corpses...)

The fun thing about a Cerebremancer is that Psions don't care quite as much about not reaching 17th-level. As long as you can increase your manifester level, augmentation gets you some of those higher effects that other casters normally need "legitimate" leveling to access. Psions meanwhile get access to things like Dominate Monster as early as 7th, Polar Ray at 1st, Foresight at 3rd, Time Stop at 11th etc.

[AnimeTheCat]

I definitely understand what you're saying, but the counterpoint is that the high-level party can take on three dragons, or perhaps an evil archmage with a dragon-controlling orb, and that can feel pretty damn epic too. That's why I ultimately disagree.

Agree to disagree then, just based on personal taste is suppose. 3 dragons just seems like "too much everything" is all, and that's just my taste. I'm not opposed to high level play, its just not my preference is all.

The fun thing about a Cerebremancer is that Psions don't care quite as much about not reaching 17th-level. As long as you can increase your manifester level, augmentation gets you some of those higher effects that other casters normally need "legitimate" leveling to access. Psions meanwhile get access to things like Dominate Monster as early as 7th, Polar Ray at 1st, Foresight at 3rd, Time Stop at 11th etc.

Yeah... I love Psions. They are pretty great for an addition to pretty much anything, and I feel like there's not really anything in the game that can't be improved with a little application of psionics.

I didn't originally create this thread for build advice, I thought I knew what I wanted... But here I am adding a bit for build advice because I really enjoy the opinions of others and I am certain there's something I missed. Build Information Below:

Spoiler: Actual Build Information

Show

I had a nice long conversation with the DM yesterday and I've gotten the green light to play a Gray Elf Generalist Wizard/Cloistered Cleric of Wee Jas. I'm planning on playing this character very closely to Wee Jas, so Lawful Neutral, no problem with undead animation as long as the soul is willing (or contracted to do so) and the remains have been lawfully procured. On the cleric side I will be taking the Knowledge and Death Domains, but I'm torn as to whether I want to take the Domination or Magic domains. Would the Magic Domain let me activate scrolls and wands as if I'm a wizard equal to my Wizard level + 1/2 my cleric level meaning I could activate scrolls and wands of spells I can't cast? Like, at Wizard 2/Cleric 1, can I activate level 2 arcane scrolls and wands? then, at Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1, can I activate level 3 arcane scrolls and wands? Clarification would be greatly appreciated if any can provide it. If what I stated is the truth, definitely going with the Magic Domain. If not, I think I'll roll with Domination Domain for Spell Focus (Enchantment) to get those DC's a little Higher.

DM authorized 32 Point Buy, so I'm going to roll with 6/14/12/16/16/14. It's not "Optimal" but I'm not really shooting for Optimal, I'm shooting for fun and not overpowering for a party of:
- A homebrewed Firbolg Barbarian (+2 Str/Con, -2 to two other stats, Powerful Build, and some other stuff... link) two-handing a Dwarven Waraxe (not taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat)
- A Human Warlock (not sure the build path)
- A Half-Orc Fighter (Also 2 handing an Axe)

Aside from Power Attack (which I know they will be using) I know nothing else of the builds, but you can expect fairly low optimization from them, which means I'll be responsible for leveling the playing field without overshadowing them which is why I'm going with a slightly sub-optimal theurge build with small wiffs of optimization (like using elven generalist racial substitution levels).

I'm not sure how available scrolls are going to be so I'm going to be taking the Collegiate Wizard feat from Complete Arcane along side the Elven Generalist Racial Substitution Levels. This gets me 10 level 1 spells known at character creation and 3 spells per day. At each Wizard Level I'll get 5 spells known added to my spellbook. While I'm on the topic of feats, at level 1 I'll be taking Spell Focus (necromancy) since it's a prerequisite for True Necromancer which is how i would end this build if it got past level 16 (also, I like Necromancy spells and they fit the deity). At level 3, I'm going to take Spontaneous Healer since I'll be rebuking Undead and spontaneously casting inflict spells (because that's what Wee Jas does in her Deities and Demigods entry and that's what I'm trying to emulate). At level 6 I'll be taking brew potion so that I can have potions for the party. I was on the fence between Craft Wonderous Item and Brew Potion and I decided that I didn't want to be the party's Magic Item Creation Machine, I wanted to be something like a scientist/alchemist/necromancer/scholar. Basically, crafting wonderous items didn't fit my mental image, so Brew Potion won.

I'll be posting a stub of my plan in the OP so that it is available for first time readers and for those returning who don't want to read the wall of text I created in spoilers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your efforts to nerf your character with Mystic Theurge are misguided if you're still going for an individually powerful character, i.e. a self-buffer or minionmancer or similar. If you go for a supportive powerful character, i.e. Batman, then there's no need to nerf your character.

Individually powerful characters are not party-friendly characters. This is a self-buffing DMM: Persistent Cleric who out-fights the Fighter and has an AC too high for anything to hit. This is a Druid who can solo appropriate-level encounters with a strong animal companion, strong wild shape forms, strong summons, and strong buffs. This is a Wizard who uses spells to solve every noncombat challenge the party faces and permanent-ish minions like undead or Planar Binding to dominate in combat. If this selfish style of play is what you do, then even nerfing your character won't solve the actual problem.

Supportive powerful characters will still fit in with a party of weak characters like you have, you just need to give everyone else a chance to shine before you solve everything. This character has a high save DC to debuff opponents with spells like Slow, Stinking Cloud, and Sleet Storm, spells that don't defeat opponents outright but reduce or remove their ability to harm the rest of your party. This character buffs his party with Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Haste, Greater Resistance, or if divine DMM: Persistent Elation, Mass Lesser Vigor, Magic Circle Against Evil, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Those won't benefit yourself as much as they benefit the rest of your party, and everyone should have a much more enjoyable experience.

My advice in this case is to play an Archivist, which can learn any divine spell in the game. Use Ice Slick, Kelpstrand, Sleet Storm, Black Tentacles, etc. to debuff opponents. Use Barkskin, Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Mass Snake's Swiftness, Haste, etc. to buff your party. In the higher levels you can put Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon on their armor and weapons to give them higher bonuses, preferably using a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell and Pearls of Power to make them last longer and use fewer spell slots. You can also put Greater/Superior Resistance on the whole party, using Pearls of Power so you only use one spell slot for it. Use your spells to Teleport the party around when needed. Use Shrink Item to remove pesky obstacles. Don't use your spells to solve noncombat situations that someone else in the party can solve, give everyone a chance to shine.

[AnimeTheCat]

Spoiler: Biffoniacus_Furiou's Response

Show

Your efforts to nerf your character with Mystic Theurge are misguided if you're still going for an individually powerful character, i.e. a self-buffer or minionmancer or similar. If you go for a supportive powerful character, i.e. Batman, then there's no need to nerf your character.

Individually powerful characters are not party-friendly characters. This is a self-buffing DMM: Persistent Cleric who out-fights the Fighter and has an AC too high for anything to hit. This is a Druid who can solo appropriate-level encounters with a strong animal companion, strong wild shape forms, strong summons, and strong buffs. This is a Wizard who uses spells to solve every noncombat challenge the party faces and permanent-ish minions like undead or Planar Binding to dominate in combat. If this selfish style of play is what you do, then even nerfing your character won't solve the actual problem.

Supportive powerful characters will still fit in with a party of weak characters like you have, you just need to give everyone else a chance to shine before you solve everything. This character has a high save DC to debuff opponents with spells like Slow, Stinking Cloud, and Sleet Storm, spells that don't defeat opponents outright but reduce or remove their ability to harm the rest of your party. This character buffs his party with Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Haste, Greater Resistance, or if divine DMM: Persistent Elation, Mass Lesser Vigor, Magic Circle Against Evil, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Those won't benefit yourself as much as they benefit the rest of your party, and everyone should have a much more enjoyable experience.

My advice in this case is to play an Archivist, which can learn any divine spell in the game. Use Ice Slick, Kelpstrand, Sleet Storm, Black Tentacles, etc. to debuff opponents. Use Barkskin, Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Mass Snake's Swiftness, Haste, etc. to buff your party. In the higher levels you can put Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon on their armor and weapons to give them higher bonuses, preferably using a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell and Pearls of Power to make them last longer and use fewer spell slots. You can also put Greater/Superior Resistance on the whole party, using Pearls of Power so you only use one spell slot for it. Use your spells to Teleport the party around when needed. Use Shrink Item to remove pesky obstacles. Don't use your spells to solve noncombat situations that someone else in the party can solve, give everyone a chance to shine.

*Sigh* I wrote a really long post and the read through it only to decide it would sound angry and possibly be upsetting.

Look, I'm not someone fresh out of the womb who knows nothing of the 3.5 world. I understand that self-buffing characters are a detriment to the party, but I certainly hope that you understand how getting higher and higher level spells as quickly as possible is also a detriment to a sub-optimal party. You can say till you're blue in the face that you're only buffing the allies and debuffing the enemy, but when it comes down to it, you're just being a puppet master with your own party. You hold all the keys to the world and you're just waiting for your party to come beg you for help. That's more degrading and worse than being a self-buffer. The solution I found was to slow the caster roll (by 3 caster levels to be exact). While I hold lots of keys, they aren't the keys to the world.

Also, I don't think you did it to irritate me but why would you post telling someone to play a single class caster when they are clearly interested in playing a theurge? It comes across as asinine, especially when the thread and post are not a new player who is asking for guidance. Now, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings or agitate you, but that post didn't really add to the conversation about using a less powerful prestige class to bring the power level of a caster down to a party nor did it add to the discussion about reviewing the proposed build, so there was no value added from your post. Truly though, thank you for responding and I don't want to discourage your opinions and thougts in the future, just make sure they're applicable to the discussion (or discussions in this case) at hand.

[Florian]

Oh, the urge to theurge!

Personally, I'm not such a fan of "earliest entry" into this PrC, but prefer to have one "main class" and keep the other as "support class", thereby also reducing the MADness a bit, ie Wiz7/Clr3/MT10 and wiggle in some levels in a PrC.

[Psyren]

Note that PF Mystic Theurge lets you have your optimization cake and eat it - i.e. be a bog-standard MT with no early entry but still end up with dual 9s, via Esoteric Training from Inner Sea Magic.

[Florian]

Note that PF Mystic Theurge lets you have your optimization cake and eat it - i.e. be a bog-standard MT with no early entry but still end up with dual 9s, via Esoteric Training from Inner Sea Magic.

You´ve got to add that this costs you 35 fame points and needs membership in a Guild, which is by itself no mean feat.

[Psyren]

You´ve got to add that this costs you 35 fame points and needs membership in a Guild, which is by itself no mean feat.

Agreed - but by the time you're ready for 9th-level spells you'll have had plenty of time to earn that (and probably saved the world once or twice too!)

[gorfnab]

I keep wanting to make a bard/druid with that special multiclass prc. It's not going to work out so well, though.

Bard 1/Druid 4/Green Whisperer 3/Spelldancer 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 10
Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 3/ Spelldancer 2/ Sublime Chord 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9

[Fizban]

You can say till you're blue in the face that you're only buffing the allies and debuffing the enemy, but when it comes down to it, you're just being a puppet master with your own party. You hold all the keys to the world and you're just waiting for your party to come beg you for help. That's more degrading and worse than being a self-buffer. The solution I found was to slow the caster roll (by 3 caster levels to be exact). While I hold lots of keys, they aren't the keys to the world.

This 'man gets it.

The only further advice I think I could give would be to wait and see if you really need True Necromancer later. Depending on where the game ends you might not even get to it, and the point at which you'd be taking it for 15-20 is where a lot of other classes really drop off, so you might not want to keep gaining accelerated access to spells. 3/3/10 still hits 7th level spells at ECL 15, and going to the basic 5/5/10 still gives you 8th level spells in both, either one at 17th and the other at 20th or evenly split at 19 and 20. The growth cuts off for most non caters around 15-17 aside from the occasional 20th capstone, so ideally if you're just playing a delayed dual caster then your growth should also slow down or cut off there.

True Necromancer does require a pretty specific build, but you could actually ignore that and do it later by converting to a death religion and taking Spell Focus (Necromancy) at 15th, after deciding you really do need the extra 2 levels of casting. True Necromancer still gives single progression at 1-2, you only actually reach 16/16 so at most it gives you access to 8ths one level sooner for one class and a respectable pile of extra 7th and 8th slots at 20th exactly. Not really enough that I'd say it's necessary to dictate the build from the beginning or convert later, especially when your goal is to let lay off a bit.


For party advice, watch out for the problems with having two-frontliners, especially with no shields, and a warlock. That means they both want to be the primary damage dealer, which means they both want to stand in the same spot, which means whoever goes second is gonna have a bad time when there's only one good spot to stand or their charge is blocked because the other guy charged first. The warlock will suffer from shooting into melee and soft cover, and even if they pick up an area effect eventually it will still risk hitting their allies -and if they wanted some sort of Eldritch Claw build you actually have three people competing for melee (I had this entire group problem once myself, in a dungeon with narrow corridors, lesson learned).

Since you've already got a little bit of homebrew, I would suggest checking out Vael's homebrew invocations. Some are a little outside basic power levels*, but with a warlock competing with two two-handers they'll probably want a little extra juice (Vael has several flavors of +cha damage), and Eldritch Affliction from the necromantic pile (Least level) lets you just pick a target in 60' and run a will save for half instead of a touch attack- neatly avoiding ranged problems and still working fine against most melee enemies.

*The only one I think really needs a nerf is Ward Torch from the Elemental set, which gives a swift action released Pyrotechnics effect that makes its own flying torch, and that's mostly because of the swift action.


On spells, I think some of the best BFC is the completely non-hostile kind, no direct penalties, which Clerics get on 3rd level spells with Stone Shape. You can spread the volume into approximately five 5' squares +1/2 levels of 1" thick plates, two levels before Wall of Stone. Splitting up or walling off foes and creating chokepoints can let you fix your party's tactics and effectively grant them actions without devaluing their numbers or forcibly shoving "I just gave you an action" in their face at all. As long as you don't do it every fight (turning every fight into a focus fire affair) I think this might be the best aim for subtlety, and the DM can even fight back since 1" stone plates are quite destructible and having one smashed makes your power much less absolute (even as it wastes an enemy action).

For sor/wiz, eh, just stick with the classic lowballing? No rogue means you could just push rogue-substitute for a lot, with Detect Secret Doors and Knock, while Unseen Servant and Floating Disk are nice flashy "I'm a wizard" spells with undervalued utility that don't do combat. Backbiter is nice slapstick attack. You're the crowd-control, but nothing says you should make all your slots crowd-control and rogue+information can take as many slots as you want so you can start low and bring in more if its needed.

[enderlord99]

You can say till you're blue in the face that you're only buffing the allies and debuffing the enemy, but when it comes down to it, you're just being a puppet master with your own party.

If this is a bad thing, don't play bard.

I have no actually-relevant advice, since you weren't planning on bard; I just thought that would be a fun thing to point out.

EDIT: I meant in terms of fluff, and only in regards to the specific portion I quoted.

[Fizban]

If this is a bad thing, don't play bard.

I have no actually-relevant advice, since you weren't planning on bard; I just thought that would be a fun thing to point out.

A normal Bard is just fine: Inspire Courage +1-3 for most of the game with the option of Good Hope or Greater Heroism for a bit broader effects is just dandy. Its the char-op Bard that starts at +3 at 1st and goes to +8 or +10 or some such ridiculousness that would make the rest of the party feel small.

When there's a motto of "fighters suck because animal companions are as good as fighters and you can just buff them," well its funny because they aren't. They are. . . if you put a ton of buffs on them. Put the same pile of buffs on a fighter and they're nigh-unstoppable- and they know perfectly well that their build doesn't matter because this amount of buffs would have made an animal companion able to do the job. If you're getting buffs when you aren't fighting things that need them, you feel pointless because the buffs make you superfluous, and if you're fighting things that require that many buffs then you know perfectly well you'd be useless without them. Push the op high enough and its lose/lose for anyone who's not a caster, what a surprise.

3.5's intended play walks a very fine line of required buffs for fighting magical threats, and good but not so good they invalidate the base character buffs for boosting numbers. Splat books putting out spells that intentionally stack and cross over bonus types multiplied by number of splats stacked makes it very easy to dive right off the line into the sea. There should be pretty much exactly one or two buffs on the non-magicals every fight at mid-high levels: one to survive the monsters big magic attack, and one to make them better at fighting if an only if the monster is higher level than them. Anything more and *wheeeeee*

[AnimeTheCat]

EDIT: I put things in spoilers so that the post isn't so outrageous.

When there's a motto of "fighters suck because animal companions are as good as fighters and you can just buff them," well its funny because they aren't. They are. . . if you put a ton of buffs on them. Put the same pile of buffs on a fighter and they're nigh-unstoppable- and they know perfectly well that their build doesn't matter because this amount of buffs would have made an animal companion able to do the job. If you're getting buffs when you aren't fighting things that need them, you feel pointless because the buffs make you superfluous, and if you're fighting things that require that many buffs then you know perfectly well you'd be useless without them. Push the op high enough and its lose/lose for anyone who's not a caster, what a surprise.

3.5's intended play walks a very fine line of required buffs for fighting magical threats, and good but not so good they invalidate the base character buffs for boosting numbers. Splat books putting out spells that intentionally stack and cross over bonus types multiplied by number of splats stacked makes it very easy to dive right off the line into the sea. There should be pretty much exactly one or two buffs on the non-magicals every fight at mid-high levels: one to survive the monsters big magic attack, and one to make them better at fighting if an only if the monster is higher level than them. Anything more and *wheeeeee*

Spoiler: Response

Show

I don't really know why the thought process is that an animal companion is as good as a fighter. I'm sure I'll have plenty of people jumping to tell me why, but the only circumstance I see that is if your party is level 1, even then I'm not super sure... Buffing the party is certainly a role that Wizards/Sorcerers/Clerics fill, like fly, haste, magic weapon (before magic weapons are acquired), Bless, Shield of Faith, Enlarge Person, etc are all nice buff spells to cast on the party members. The line is really fine though, like you said. It is really difficult to even tell when the line has been crossed because it may be different from player to player. I have played in a few games where I was the fighter, but I worked with the party sorcerer (whom I was friends with out of game and extensively researched things with) and we decided that I would be his pocket fighter and he would be my pocket buffer. It was great fun for both of us because we were a nigh-unstoppable team, but I can easily see how another player wouldn't feel that way and would feel either reliant or obviated by the spells being cast on them. Its just a tough line and I would rather under-shoot and have the party ask for more than overshoot and sour everyone's experience.

The only further advice I think I could give would be to wait and see if you really need True Necromancer later. Depending on where the game ends you might not even get to it, and the point at which you'd be taking it for 15-20 is where a lot of other classes really drop off, so you might not want to keep gaining accelerated access to spells. 3/3/10 still hits 7th level spells at ECL 15, and going to the basic 5/5/10 still gives you 8th level spells in both, either one at 17th and the other at 20th or evenly split at 19 and 20. The growth cuts off for most non caters around 15-17 aside from the occasional 20th capstone, so ideally if you're just playing a delayed dual caster then your growth should also slow down or cut off there.

True Necromancer does require a pretty specific build, but you could actually ignore that and do it later by converting to a death religion and taking Spell Focus (Necromancy) at 15th, after deciding you really do need the extra 2 levels of casting. True Necromancer still gives single progression at 1-2, you only actually reach 16/16 so at most it gives you access to 8ths one level sooner for one class and a respectable pile of extra 7th and 8th slots at 20th exactly. Not really enough that I'd say it's necessary to dictate the build from the beginning or convert later, especially when your goal is to let lay off a bit.

Spoiler: Response

Show

True Necromancer is on there just to top the build off with something that grants class features and class levels. After 14 levels of no class features and just spells, it would be a nice little cherry on top. I'm a follower of Wee Jas and I'm taking the Death Domain for this specific purpose. I don't really think the game will go on that long, and even if it does the party will likely be higher level than me by then because I will be making magic items as much as possible because I want to lol. The only reason I picked it is because, flavorally (new word?) speaking, it fits my idea and still gives me dual casting class progression. At that level, I'll really be focusing on just letting the party work things out and offering options for them to take, essentially using me as a resource as opposed to me using them as resources. Again though, I doubt the game will get that high in level.

For party advice, watch out for the problems with having two-frontliners, especially with no shields, and a warlock. That means they both want to be the primary damage dealer, which means they both want to stand in the same spot, which means whoever goes second is gonna have a bad time when there's only one good spot to stand or their charge is blocked because the other guy charged first. The warlock will suffer from shooting into melee and soft cover, and even if they pick up an area effect eventually it will still risk hitting their allies -and if they wanted some sort of Eldritch Claw build you actually have three people competing for melee (I had this entire group problem once myself, in a dungeon with narrow corridors, lesson learned).

Yeah, this is a problem and I'm just going to have to be ready to help them in any way I can. I'm lucky enough to be a player this time so encounters are out of my hands. I trust that this DM is going to throw things at us from multiple angles though, which will help the two front line heavy hitters not feel left out of the HP Damage race.

Since you've already got a little bit of homebrew, I would suggest checking out Vael's homebrew invocations. Some are a little outside basic power levels*, but with a warlock competing with two two-handers they'll probably want a little extra juice (Vael has several flavors of +cha damage), and Eldritch Affliction from the necromantic pile (Least level) lets you just pick a target in 60' and run a will save for half instead of a touch attack- neatly avoiding ranged problems and still working fine against most melee enemies.

*The only one I think really needs a nerf is Ward Torch from the Elemental set, which gives a swift action released Pyrotechnics effect that makes its own flying torch, and that's mostly because of the swift action.

Spoiler: Response

Show

I'll have to show it to the DM, but I think the person playing the warlock is pretty happy with what's in the book. The person playing the homebrew is... kind of a brat? I was talking to the DM and basically we both know that this person is the kind of person who would, if told no, would pout and basically be like "well if you're just gonna shut down all my ideas just play the character however you wanna play it. It's not like I have any choice anyway." and that would be just from saying no to playing a Firbolg in session 0... Yeah... he's a problem player but it's not the end of the world. Its just a pain sometimes.

On spells, I think some of the best BFC is the completely non-hostile kind, no direct penalties, which Clerics get on 3rd level spells with Stone Shape. You can spread the volume into approximately five 5' squares +1/2 levels of 1" thick plates, two levels before Wall of Stone. Splitting up or walling off foes and creating chokepoints can let you fix your party's tactics and effectively grant them actions without devaluing their numbers or forcibly shoving "I just gave you an action" in their face at all. As long as you don't do it every fight (turning every fight into a focus fire affair) I think this might be the best aim for subtlety, and the DM can even fight back since 1" stone plates are quite destructible and having one smashed makes your power much less absolute (even as it wastes an enemy action).

For sor/wiz, eh, just stick with the classic lowballing? No rogue means you could just push rogue-substitute for a lot, with Detect Secret Doors and Knock, while Unseen Servant and Floating Disk are nice flashy "I'm a wizard" spells with undervalued utility that don't do combat. Backbiter is nice slapstick attack. You're the crowd-control, but nothing says you should make all your slots crowd-control and rogue+information can take as many slots as you want so you can start low and bring in more if its needed.

Spoiler: Response

Show

Speaking of spells, my focus is going to be on lower level spells since that's where I'll remain for the first 8 levels of the game. As a Elven Generalist Collegiate Wizard with 16 Int, I'll know 10 first level spells at level 1. What I'm planning on are Sleep and Charm Person (If I end up taking the Domination Domain at level 2, If not I'll take Silent Image and Detect Secret Doors), Grease, Obscuring Mist, Color Spray, Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon, and Comprehend Languages. The idea being that during down time I make scrolls of a lot of my utility type spells for the Warlock to UMD which will increase the number of available spells and spellcasters on the board to further augment the front line in the event that it is necessary. I'm actually pretty good friends with the Warlock, so we're going to be doing our best to make sure the fighter and barbarian don't feel like they're being overshadowed and feel like we're supporting them in their desires/goals.

[Fizban]

True Necromancer is on there just to top the build off

Yeah, I noticed how detailed your Wee Jas-ness was later.

I'll have to show it to the DM, but I think the person playing the warlock is pretty happy with what's in the book.

Could just keep in in your pocket as a one-off in case its needed. If the encounter design does a good job of splitting the melee so they both have their own front line, it'll probably be open enough the warlock can get a shot off. That'll mean lots of open space where the control comes in, seems about right.

Speaking of spells, my focus is going to be on lower level spells since that's where I'll remain for the first 8 levels of the game.

Looks like you've got the lot there. Usual caveats: check with the DM on just what you can do with Charm Person and Silent Image, etc. Personally I'd drop Cause Fear since you've got Sleep and its just better aside from elves and a very specific 5-6HD range, though I suppose the shaken on success isn't bad. I like a little more pizazz like Backbiter or Ray of Flame, Magic Missile (so you can scribe backup scrolls) is good to have even early, and I already mentioned how Unseen Servant for no reason should project a nice aura of wizardness.