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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroiaSD View Post
    .... not only is there a visual indication of time passed in the clothing, which rather cuts your point off the knee right there ("Sure, there's clear visual indication, but it's not *enough*" does not strong criticism make), and the use of chewsticks and change and posture and attitude and expression, but the tasks mentioned are all ones that would logically take a lot of time.

    Sorry, I think you're the one getting this wrong. You can't just say "this doesn't work for reasons," and brushing aside the things that do, well, address it exactly not being those reasons, and the '5 minutes' comes entirely from your own point of view going in and not anything in the art or writing.

    Honestly most of your points are like that, vague tisking about it not being good enough 'cause Mookie, but empty in terms of critical value. "I'm going in assuming there's something wrong and even if it addresses the thing that there's no reason to assume going in, I'll give half-credit while complaining about the thing it," only tells me about your assumptions, not the comic. Maybe if you don't have anything to contribute, go do something else? Because it's not really entertaining to listen to half-hearted criticism without substance.

    If you don't actually have a way of articulating problems with the comic and give it minus points for doing the opposite of your complaints, you're not criticizing, you're showing us the grumpy-Celestia show, and the grumpy-Celestia show is poorly written and doesn't show it's work.
    The problem is, a random mook with access to google and a police database could type the search words he uttered in 2-3 minutes. To make sense of this scene we need to assume either that his super future computer is super slow (due to communication lag across star system for example) or the chief encountered countless dead ends before he hit on the correct search criteria.

    Using a search engine to find the answer is too mundane for us. We do it all the time.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    I don't think that the montage scene was clear. The main reason is that it didn't put enough emphasis on the elements suggesting mental fatigue as time goes by. Yes, they are there, but they aren't evident. I didn't notice the clothing change, for example, and the sticks are in a peripheral position, and mix up with Chief's Space Moustache.

    So I think that the best option would have been to spread the search on two pages. Change the framing. Treat it like if chief were taking on a challenge. Have him face the enemy: the data he's trying to extort info from. Explicitly show some dead ends ("DOESN'T COMPUTE"). Use some better devices to express the huge amount of time that has passed: typical examples are empty food plates, lots of cigarette butts, changes in light. Chief might need some extra reading to get to his conclusion, so you show that more documents are adding up on his desk, or around it.

    I also don't think that this is a simple search, more like cross-searching.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by guttering flame View Post
    The problem is, a random mook with access to google and a police database could type the search words he uttered in 2-3 minutes. To make sense of this scene we need to assume either that his super future computer is super slow (due to communication lag across star system for example) or the chief encountered countless dead ends before he hit on the correct search criteria.

    Using a search engine to find the answer is too mundane for us. We do it all the time.
    That assumes that he's just searching for a known word- he's not, he's trying to figure out connections between various sets of information, and, importantly, he doesn't know exactly what the connection will be.

    "But about what? What is the connection that needs to be made?" -comic before the search montage.


    Right now in real life, searching for context and information, doing real research, is far more involved than a google search too. Google is easy if you know what you're looking for (well, most of the time, it can sometimes be tricky), and it's not buried in mounds of similar but irrelevant data (he's looking for deliveries on the records of a delivery ship where they only know one specific run that *definitely* trafficed in people).


    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    I don't think that the montage scene was clear. The main reason is that it didn't put enough emphasis on the elements suggesting mental fatigue as time goes by. Yes, they are there, but they aren't evident. I didn't notice the clothing change, for example, and the sticks are in a peripheral position, and mix up with Chief's Space Moustache.
    He also had a harrowed expression with large bags under his eyes front and center, the lights and shadows from the widow changed....

    Like, almost every little thing changed and we have verbal indications things are going to take awhile, reinforced by the close-up panel at the end and the next strip.

    I suppose they could've moved the chair around more to suggest he changes where he was watching from more, and zoomed in more on the chewsticks, but really, tons of tricks in the book to suggest 'time passage' are there. It both tells and shows. Even if you missed the show at first, there's the tell to tell you to look for the show, and the last panel in specific is a close-up with major signs of tiredness, one can write the earlier things off as subtle but that is not.


    I think at some point you have to accept it may be you.
    Last edited by ZeroiaSD; 2018-03-14 at 01:36 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    To be honest, I didn't notice the passage of time either on the first read.
    I don't know if the art could have shown it better or if it was my fault, but really, why does it even matter?
    I don't care if it took 3 minutes or 3 days, the important question is what does the chief have that investigators several years ago didn't?

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroiaSD View Post
    Like, almost every little thing changed and we have verbal indications things are going to take awhile, reinforced by the close-up panel at the end and the next strip.
    This sums up my problems with this page wonderfully. Every little thing = stuff that can pass unnoticed. The light change, for example, was invisible to me until you pointed it out. Verbal indications = telling instead of showing. Comics are a visual medium, first and foremost. Changes that are supposed to be evident should be evident. The only change that I see as evident is the gradual shrink of Chief's search, from the lowering quantity of light words on the board.

    I'm not saying that this page is the devil, I'm saying that it could have been done better.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    All these slaves were smuggled to Hymn's estate, weren't they?

    I mean, the A-plot and B-plot are going to be linked somehow, and Hymn got a lot of people on his choir that he can murder with full impunity, so they have to be people kept out of the grid somehow.
    No.
    Please don't.

    First reason is the obvious coincidences problem, that already reached the levels of Dirk Gently, only there that was the entire point.

    Second reason is the one I mentioned before.
    The only way Hymn's story can work is as a wacky villain.
    That doesn't go well with a CSI story line or a love triangle, and that CERTAINLY doesn't work with a redemption story involving slave trading.

    Fortunately, it doesn't look like it's going there judging from the last update.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroiaSD View Post
    He also had a harrowed expression with large bags under his eyes front and center, the lights and shadows from the windle changed....
    Fixed that for you.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    If I remember things right, then the Burke-Joyce case is a few years old, and Joyce's ship and the criminals in his crew were doing those illegal drug/weapon/slave runs. Those illegal runs were more or less part of a routine. Burke, despite being close to Joyce, knew nothing of it - he had been a decent person and the moment he found the imprisoned civilians, he told GalDef and found himself shooting his captain, somehow. So naturally, GalDef arrested the criminal crew and investigated and prosecuted the case (after all, how else would Burke know that besides people there was other stuff like drugs and weapons!?). That is the story that Burke told Grex, and if she isn't completely incompetent she has checked the GalDef records and found that his story is true before recommending to release him. If Burke was lying, she would have called him on it.

    The comic in questions shows the chief, on his own, cracking a problem with just a single database (the one permanently in the background). So let's assume he did some probably complicated connecting/filtering operations (or even cross-referencing with other info sources, which is NOT mentioned/shown at all!), and then had actually READ lots of those files that are highlighted there. The "result" entries that he finds are just narrowed down more and more in his main screen. He is clearly applying a certain search procedure on different data attributes, something that is tedious, but fairly easy. I happen to work with different municipal databases that contain millions of entries, and filtering is the first thing I do. The difficult part is understanding if/how/why suspicious entries are wrong or not. So yeah, it comes down to reading and understanding, not the easy filtering process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    The problem, though, is that his inquiries are largely still vague and follow a logical progression from panel to panel. So, it looks like it took five minutes, and Chief just decided to quickly disrobe while waiting. Mookie is only capable of getting things half right, after all.
    fixed "disprove" --> "disrobe" in your post. I know the evilness of phone auto-correct!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroiaSD View Post
    .... not only is there a visual indication of time passed in the clothing, which rather cuts your point off the knee right there ("Sure, there's clear visual indication, but it's not *enough*" does not strong criticism make), and the use of chewsticks and change and posture and attitude and expression, but the tasks mentioned are all ones that would logically take a lot of time.

    Sorry, I think you're the one getting this wrong. You can't just say "this doesn't work for reasons," and brushing aside the things that do, well, address it exactly not being those reasons, and the '5 minutes' comes entirely from your own point of view going in and not anything in the art or writing.
    Sorry, I think you're missing the point. I'm not claiming to be good at programming and data analysis, but I recognize a fellow amateur at work, see the description at the beginning of my post.

    The point is: It doesn't matter if the depicted scene takes place in 5 minutes or in 5 or even 50 hours: It clearly took a single person only a single sitting. If the chief has to solve the case just like that in an overdosed night-shift - then the regular data analysts on the regular security intelligence force haven't done their job. At all. Because if there is a ship that needs to be investigated in closest detail - a secret smuggling ship in an otherwise spotless military organization is highest priority. Per story premise, the Federation isn't sinister. As further proof that there was no hush-up-operation from high above: The logfiles of that ship weren't swept under the rug as "top secret", neither were the data falsified: The chief got access, and he found some pattern. No tampering, no sealed records.

    Another point is: Maybe the chief had a great inspiration that nobody else had before - but then he should have handed that idea to his experts and have a short nap while they dig out the matching data. As a commanding officer, it is his job to delegate tedious tasks, in order to being able to come up with even more brilliant ideas that he can delegate to others.

    Well, it's a comic. It can't show everything, it can only show little bits. But, ZeroiaSD, it looks like Mookie is presenting the story in a little box, and you just take it at face value and praise him for what he shows us, while never thinking outside of that story framework. Others do, and find odd things that don't really make sense.
    In your defence, I agree that some of the "negative" posters haven't followed the story closely enough and are missing the one or the other subtle point. But, when they do, please point those details out more clearly, instead of just bashing them for their ignorance. That benefits the discussion culture more than the broad-stroke attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gez View Post
    All these slaves were smuggled to Hymn's estate, weren't they?

    I mean, the A-plot and B-plot are going to be linked somehow, and Hymn got a lot of people on his choir that he can murder with full impunity, so they have to be people kept out of the grid somehow.
    And that's great dot-connecting. So. Does it make sense for Hymn to be a slave-master, instead of having a regular choir? And what is he actually doing?

    Hmmm.

    Humans are a species that groks music. 95% of us, if motivated and trained, can sing at least decently, even when most claim that they can't sing. But Hymn doesn't want decent singers, he wants perfect ones. Until now, I assumed he was having a regular choir, recruiting only the best singers (applicants) and killing them if they didn't fit his standard. That made no sense, as I pointed out several times.

    Forcing or training prisoners to sing a jolly song, and killing them when they don't, is really messed up. Actually, it has been done before in reality. But again, Hymn wants perfection. To achieve perfection, his applicants would just need to train harder and then try again. Instead, Hymn killed them off. Which still makes no sense, unless...

    Yeah. Naturally, he isn't having slave labor in his choir. He is doing perfect mind control. All those singers who sing in The Choir, are simply instruments. Extensions of his will. He buys them as raw material, does some hard work shaping them up until they are at the peak of their singing capacity - an applicant. As a perfectionist virtuoso, he then performs tests until he detects a flaw in new instruments. A flaw means that this particular instrument is inherently broken and thus worthless. That is the only explanation that I have for those killing scenes that makes sense to me.

    And I guess that he did some preliminary tests on Danicas voice. Not only does she have a voice that can be formed/trained to be an applicant, she also has some serious firepower. Make her an applicant or even the star of the Choir! It all falls into place.

    Quote Originally Posted by random11 View Post
    No.
    Please don't.
    Oh yes, it looks like that. Convenient, isn't it? Burke together with Danica going to Hymn, while the Chief also connected some dots and can storm to the rescue. My bet is that Danica can fix the problem on her own (just barely), and the Chief arrives with the cavalry only to explain everything to the audience.
    Last edited by Onyavar; 2018-03-14 at 04:22 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Maybe he likes castrato parts, and has no other way to get them than through slavery and human trafficking?
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Also, I did a re-reading of Hymn's songs. I guess there are at least some hints.

    O Voice
    my bridge to the world
    from which I cross into being
    and from clay begin to build
    Bonus points to Mookie (for subtle foreshadowing as well as for confusing the reader) if "Dr. Hymn" is actually just a puppet, and the real mind-controlling entity is hiding in his ship, or is even a non-corporeal "voice".

    As an aside note: Of course, he (or it) can't mind-control anyone without some serious brainwashing. Maybe even a procedure performed by The Choir, but not possible to do on an entire audience. So he is clearly limited and can't just rule the world.
    Last edited by Onyavar; 2018-03-14 at 05:00 PM. Reason: those typos...

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Update

    Is Burke aware that Grex will be on duty during the event?

    While the page itself is good, showing the atmosphere in a clear way without even a word, I can't get over the fact that this entire meeting should not have happened in the first place.
    This is the worst situation, place and company to take Burke to.

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by random11 View Post
    Update

    Is Burke aware that Grex will be on duty during the event?

    While the page itself is good, showing the atmosphere in a clear way without even a word, I can't get over the fact that this entire meeting should not have happened in the first place.
    This is the worst situation, place and company to take Burke to.
    Pretty much this.. But in Burke's defense : it's a visit to a famous composers estate. Nobody expects the security to be necessary, I think.
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Its good to see danica is acting her age. Ive always been curious as to how a 6 year old became a research assistant on a major space station in the first place, but figured it had to do with her unnatural height.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Its good to see danica is acting her age. Ive always been curious as to how a 6 year old became a research assistant on a major space station in the first place, but figured it had to do with her unnatural height.
    To be fair, she is expected to be the date of the man who tried to kill her.
    While I would prefer a more mature "silent disapproval" look compared to the "you can make me go with him, but you can't make me enjoy it!", it's not like her behavior is unexpected or unfair.

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Nothing like awkward music to break the ice


    Here is my guess regarding the story:
    Hymn will charm everyone with his song, except Burke who is immune since he doesn't like this sort of music.
    Burke will then connect his midi to the concert's sound system and release the spell, allowing Danica to end the story with a punch to the face.
    In the epilogue, Burke will change profession into a travelling DJ, and as a bonus, he will get to fly his own space truck between gigs, allowing him to be both famous and fulfill his dream of flying where he wants to.

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Update

    Don't know why it bothers me, but a huge estate on an asteroid, and they need to share rooms?

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by random11 View Post
    Update

    Don't know why it bothers me, but a huge estate on an asteroid, and they need to share rooms?
    Just because the estate is huge, that doesn't mean the mansion is big enough to have six spare rooms. That is actually quite a large number.

    Anyways, 20 space bucks says that they draw lots or something, and Danica ends up with Burke.
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by random11 View Post
    Update

    Don't know why it bothers me, but a huge estate on an asteroid, and they need to share rooms?
    Well yes, Hymn needs all that space for Parks.

    And cells to hold his victims of course.
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    The most obvious thing would be Danica + Brightman, Grex + Tentacruel, Frogman + Burkman. You know, if you want to keep the boys away from the gurls.

    Unless Danica is going "I don't trust Burke! I am the Star Power: let him sleep in my room, and, if he tries something, I'll cut him open like a ship's hull."
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    The most obvious thing would be Danica + Brightman, Grex + Tentacruel, Frogman + Burkman. You know, if you want to keep the boys away from the gurls.

    Unless Danica is going "I don't trust Burke! I am the Star Power: let him sleep in my room, and, if he tries something, I'll cut him open like a ship's hull."
    Well, yeah. That is the most logical pairings if you don't like fun.
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Just because the estate is huge, that doesn't mean the mansion is big enough to have six spare rooms. That is actually quite a large number.

    Anyways, 20 space bucks says that they draw lots or something, and Danica ends up with Burke.
    I find it highly unlikely that Danica is the first group of people that visits the estate, and this is relatively a small group.
    While I don't necessarily expect X rooms, I do expect some sort of arrangement for visiting groups beyond 6 people.
    Maybe just a nearby hotel (or planet).
    Certainly not shared rooms, and double certain that this is not something that should come as a surprise (if not just for etiquette, surely, the freaking SECURITY TEAM should know about sleeping arrangements ahead of time).

    Also, I was expecting it to be just a visit to talk with Danica, maybe a formal dinner.
    Is it something I missed? Was it ever mentioned that this is planned to be a slumber party?

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by random11 View Post
    I find it highly unlikely that Danica is the first group of people that visits the estate, and this is relatively a small group.
    While I don't necessarily expect X rooms, I do expect some sort of arrangement for visiting groups beyond 6 people.
    Maybe just a nearby hotel (or planet).
    Certainly not shared rooms, and double certain that this is not something that should come as a surprise (if not just for etiquette, surely, the freaking SECURITY TEAM should know about sleeping arrangements ahead of time).

    Also, I was expecting it to be just a visit to talk with Danica, maybe a formal dinner.
    Is it something I missed? Was it ever mentioned that this is planned to be a slumber party?
    Actually, there seems not much planning at all. When I visit my sister, we first negotiate by phone the time I should arrive. Then I just crash at her place and we negotiate for how long when I'm already there.
    What's the difference here? Okay, they are both extremely famous people with schedules, security detail and personal assistants, visiting each other across the galaxy, but really, it's just the same situation.

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Looks like hymmy boy has some sort of connection to chiefs investigation. And now we know how they get rid of the bodies.
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Looks like hymmy boy has some sort of connection to chiefs investigation. And now we know how they get rid of the bodies.
    Well, that wasn't the big issue.. If you have your own planetoid you could also bury it or whatever. The question remains "where do the candidates nobody is missing come from?" and if the answer is "random space slaves" I'm shocked there are actually people in his choir.. But not even Starpower would go along with that plot.. Right?
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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Daaaaaaark.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    Well, that wasn't the big issue.. If you have your own planetoid you could also bury it or whatever. The question remains "where do the candidates nobody is missing come from?" and if the answer is "random space slaves" I'm shocked there are actually people in his choir.. But not even Starpower would go along with that plot.. Right?
    That means all his choirpeople know what he really is. Remind me of the Orchestra of Pain from the Elric of Monibone series.

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Update

    The chief has to be one of the worst security personal I've ever read about.
    Last week, we discovered that the security team arrived without knowing the lodging arrangements before the mission, which was bad enough.
    Now we discover that the chief did not even know that communication will not be possible during the stay.
    This is not hidden information, this is something that should be in Hymn's Wikipedia page, not to mention THE REASON WHY THE SECURITY TEAM WAS INVITED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

    I sometimes try to suggest ways the plot could have been fixed by moving the order of events or adding minor changes.
    This story-line is a lost cause. I don't know how to save this (unless we take the DD meaning of the word "save" )

    No option makes any sense.
    If Hymn uses actual singers, someone would ask where they disappear to after an audition.
    If Hymn is using slaves, someone would inquire where the talented people in his choir come from.

    If the chief found a connection between Hymn and the slaves, his reaction should have been about it and not some ambiguous "something is not right".
    But if there is no connection, then the chief's suspicion just came out of nowhere.

    This can no longer be a wacky villain with the tone from the slavery and cremation.
    But I don't see how we can take him as a serious threat considering Danica's daily job of beating the crap out of warlords.

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by guttering flame View Post
    That means all his choirpeople know what he really is. Remind me of the Orchestra of Pain from the Elric of Monibone series.
    I guess he's really good at preaching to the choir! Ah? Ah?
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    My favorite part is

    Spoiler
    Show
    in the future, cell phones are so important you are legally required to have a bodyguard if you will not have reception.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Star Power VI: Shooting Stars (VORP VORP VORP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    My favorite part is

    Spoiler
    Show
    in the future, cell phones are so important you are legally required to have a bodyguard if you will not have reception.
    Also, salesmen calls must be a real problem in the future considering one must use a blocker to protect his privacy in an asteroid he owns instead of, you know, not answering the phone?

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