So... Are we over hating Twilight now?

[S@tanicoaldo]

I saw a couple of friends talking about a video they saw about how Twilight may not be as bad as we used to think and that maybe we over react a little.

Ok she may not be the best role model for girls in literature but it wasn't the new edition of necronomicon as many of acted.

I kind of agree and now I wanted to know what you guys think, are we all in the same page or you guys still think it was a book written in the fourth circle of hell by terrible demons to bring pain and horror to earth? Or is it just not relevant anymore? What you guys think? What's your take?

[Knaight]

It's still garbage, and it was still never particularly impressive as garbage - there's no shortage of things that are worse. It being reacted to in particular was largely a fluke and not something deserved by virtue of being singularly bad.

[danzibr]

Never read the books, thought the movies were alright. I've gotten to at least partially see them several times, wife is obsessed. Third is my favorite.

[Tvtyrant]

IDK that most people hated Twilight so much as hated that a mediocre work was so popular.

The only real issue with the story as I see it is that the author promotes an abusive relationship model, but not nearly as bad as 50 Shades or many, many other romance novels.

[Peelee]

My only experience with Twilight was when I was working a movie theater, and one of my friends (a former worker at said theater) wanted me to get her in to the screening for it. This technically meant I had to be in there with her, but since she used to work there and all the managers knew and liked her, I didn't really need to. I'd never heard of it before, though, and I figured why not? After the first twenty or thirty minutes or so, I walked out because of extreme disinterest. I only later found out that there was a scene where Edward sparkled. I was very upset that I hadn't stayed for that; it sounded delightfully terrible.

Anyway. Knowing nothing about Twilight, I walked out of it despite seeing it for free. Don't think my opinion of it will ever improve.

[S@tanicoaldo]

I'm not saying it's good, I'm just saying that maybe it wasn't the first signal of the end times as many people used to act.

It was a commercial movie/novel for young girls nothing but that, it wasn't nearly as terrible or horrible as people used to say it was.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm not saying it's good, I'm just saying that maybe it wasn't the first signal of the end times as many people used to act.

It was a commercial movie/novel for young girls nothing but that, it wasn't nearly as terrible or horrible as people used to say it was.

With the exception of promoting abusive, pedophillic relationships sure. Along with promoting deeply problematic views on reproduction and women's agency even outside the main relationship, all of which was pushed towards an impressionable audience.

[AgentofOdd]

Out of curiosity, was the video they watched Lindsay Ellis's "Dear Stephenie Meyer?"

[Knaight]

With the exception of promoting abusive, pedophillic relationships sure. Along with promoting deeply problematic views on reproduction and women's agency even outside the main relationship, all of which was pushed towards an impressionable audience.

Again though, this is hardly unique. Twilight has nothing on Voice in the Wind or Created to be His Helpmeet, to pick just two of many examples, and that's maintaining the very specific restriction of having that exact same list of problems (although if anything the target audience is more impressionable). If those restrictions are lightened a bit, keeping the core parts of promoting horrible stuff to an impressionable audience, well, we've got Sword of Truth.

There are books deserving of the level of vitriol that Twilight got, that actually are distinctive in how terrible they are and not just reflective of annoyingly ubiquitous cultural problems. I've already picked on Debi Pearl a bit here, so I'll continue picking on the Pearls and point to the horrors of To Train Up a Child as an example in this category.

[Pex]

Not until every last instance of sparkly vampires are gone forever and then enough more years afterwards when they are forgotten. The true fault lies with Anne Rice. She started it. Twilight made it popular.

[Tvtyrant]

Again though, this is hardly unique. Twilight has nothing on Voice in the Wind or Created to be His Helpmeet, to pick just two of many examples, and that's maintaining the very specific restriction of having that exact same list of problems (although if anything the target audience is more impressionable). If those restrictions are lightened a bit, keeping the core parts of promoting horrible stuff to an impressionable audience, well, we've got Sword of Truth.

There are books deserving of the level of vitriol that Twilight got, that actually are distinctive in how terrible they are and not just reflective of annoyingly ubiquitous cultural problems. I've already picked on Debi Pearl a bit here, so I'll continue picking on the Pearls and point to the horrors of To Train Up a Child as an example in this category.

Sword of Truth is the most popular and is detested by most of the fantasy community. Twilight is among the top 20 best selling fiction books of all time, it hit a wide audience and so like Lolita is more dangerous then more radical works.

[Ramza00]

Out of curiosity, was the video they watched Lindsay Ellis's "Dear Stephenie Meyer?"

I repeat asking the question AgentofOdd asked for the OP user S@tanicoaldo , is the video you are talking about this one?

Dear Stephenie Meyer

[Kitten Champion]

I think Lindsay Ellis' critique of Twilight's criticism is pretty on point, people dunking on it became a phenomenon above and beyond anything related to the text itself and has more to do with how the wider culture tends to treat media aimed at teenage girls.

To me though, the - mostly young women - who were reading it around me were revelling in its trashiness like raccoons and well, it wasn't obnoxious. I mostly found it dull, but the more zany stuff was already revealed to me well before I actually read it so I mostly had the prose to look forward to, unlike something like Sword of Truth where I was going in blind in terms of knowledge and expectations and I had a lot of "Wait, what was that?" moments.

As someone who enjoys writing, I do find it depressing when writers of weak-to-serviceable fanfiction are skyrocketed to mega-popularity, but Twilight's hardly unique in that at this point and with 50 Shades of Grey having two goddamned Hollywood movies it's like... so what?

[Cheesegear]

with 50 Shades of Grey having two goddamned Hollywood movies it's like... so what?

This.

It's not that we are 'over' hating Twilight. If you were to bring it up, well, the text hasn't changed, the movies aren't going to change, and everything is still as garbage as it was, and ever will be. It's just that now, there are new things to bag on, because, well, we've already done Twilight. Nothing new is going to come out of that book series, so why keep complaining about something that is basically permanent? The debate argument has been had. Why keep going over it?

Like, how bad was Ghostbusters (2016), amirite?

[S@tanicoaldo]

@Ramza00 and @AgentofOdd

I think so yeah, I haven't seen the video yet sicne it's kind of long and I was working but I agreed with their main points and just wanted to get the dabate going.

[Ramza00]

I think Lindsay Ellis' critique of Twilight's criticism is pretty on point, people dunking on it became a phenomenon above and beyond anything related to the text itself and has more to do with how the wider culture tends to treat media aimed at teenage girls.

I agree with Lindsay Ellis critique of Twilight, Twilight is bad but many things are bad and we do not "dunk" on them with such extreme rage. Twilight dunking became an extreme Stand Alone Complex, to the point it was a hysteric movement, where men and some women are just mad at teen / tween / certain women liking certain styles of fiction and lets "dunk on them" as some form of tribalism.

It is / was ugly, and disgusting, and far worse than any crime that Twilight could have done. Twilight is bad, but I would not want to be associated with any of the "hate twilight movement" even if I did have some of those opinions over 10-13 years ago (the first movie came out 10 years ago and is when the series became mainstream.)

-----



Sidenote one creepy thing not really about Twilight (not about Stephenie Meyer but instead about other parts of the Twilight franchise such as the movies and the marekting)....yet I bring this up for intersectionally connected to the twilight movies is the actor who played the famous werewolf Jacob (Taylor Lautner) was only 16 when the first Twilight movie was released yet they were already pushing him at 2008 (16) and 2009 (17) into becoming a sex star not marketed at teens and everyone associated as a "teen sex symbol" but instead as an "adult sex symbol" even though the boy was only 16 at the time.

Now this is quite common with media pushing 16 year old girls as "adult sex symbols. I also find it very creepy the whole industry creating "teen" / "tween" purity sexy symbols, boy bands, disney channel, and so on. But seriously media can we stop this and collectively say no when certain people in the media are keep on pushing the envelope. Some people are now trying to make the middle school age Stranger Things characters into new versions of this.

[Ramza00]

@Ramza00 and @AgentofOdd

I think so yeah, I haven't seen the video yet sicne it's kind of long and I was working but I agreed with their main points and just wanted to get the dabate going.

You should watch it, it is really good, self aware¹ but also the author knows her history and film studies and how to do writting and blah, blah, blah. It is really good. There is a reason why me and other people on this website often reference Lindsay Ellis when there is a conversation involving, writting, storytelling, film, tropes, etc.

1) Self Aware for Lindsay Ellis used to be a major Twlight hater when she is younger and that is why she wrote / did this video essay. There is a good scene from Arya in Game of Thrones and so on.

[Blackhawk748]

It's still garbage, and it was still never particularly impressive as garbage - there's no shortage of things that are worse. It being reacted to in particular was largely a fluke and not something deserved by virtue of being singularly bad.

Mostly this. I think the reason it got reacted to like it did is largely because of how certain groups where touting it around like it was the next Dracula or something. Also it somehow got a bunch of rather bland and lousy movies, so theres that.

So no, i won't stop making Twilight jokes.

Sword of Truth is the most popular and is detested by most of the fantasy community. Twilight is among the top 20 best selling fiction books of all time, it hit a wide audience and so like Lolita is more dangerous then more radical works.

Uh, at the risk of causing a massive derail: Whats wrong with the Sword of Truth? Besides the author rather obviously sticking in their political beliefs?

[Rynjin]

Uh, at the risk of causing a massive derail: Whats wrong with the Sword of Truth? Besides the author rather obviously sticking in their political beliefs?

Besides the insipid writing, nonsensical plots, Mary Sue character, barely-there worldbuilding and character development after the first couple of books, yawn-inducing villains, AND the ham-fisted shoving in of the author's political beliefs?

Nothing at all.

[Forum Explorer]

Besides the insipid writing, nonsensical plots, Mary Sue character, barely-there worldbuilding and character development after the first couple of books, yawn-inducing villains, AND the ham-fisted shoving in of the author's political beliefs?

Nothing at all.

Well there was all the creepy pseudo (and not pseudo) rape stuff. It happens a lot. Like once or more per book I think.

[Kitten Champion]

Well there was all the creepy pseudo (and not pseudo) rape stuff. It happens a lot. Like once or more per book I think.

How could you tell the heroes and villains apart if they weren't constantly raping folk?



Seriously, how?

[Tvtyrant]

Uh, at the risk of causing a massive derail: Whats wrong with the Sword of Truth? Besides the author rather obviously sticking in their political beliefs?

The author advocates worse then genocide as the proper solution to Communism (kills the actual souls of 4/5ths of the worlds population), repeatedly treats anything less then monogamy as a sign of moral depravity followed by their righteous slaying (see the endings of books 2 and 4 especially), openly supports torture for the sake of personal vengeance, treats religious belief as inherently awful but atheism as equally awful (the only religion shown to be real is satanism, atheist communism is the other evil) while vague agnosticism is the only correct answer, etc. etc. etc.

[emduck]

I don't know that it's worth hating; it doesn't really rise to deserving that much mental energy. It's just bad. The characters are one dimensional, the story isn't compelling, and the writing is just...poor.

Mostly this. I think the reason it got reacted to like it did is largely because of how certain groups where touting it around like it was the next Dracula or something. Also it somehow got a bunch of rather bland and lousy movies, so theres that.

So no, i won't stop making Twilight jokes.



Uh, at the risk of causing a massive derail: Whats wrong with the Sword of Truth? Besides the author rather obviously sticking in their political beliefs?

"Aside from the political beliefs" is a bit of a hard one, because the political beliefs themselves were nuts. There was the one where the main character kills a bunch of peace protesters and it's portrayed as the right thing to do.

There's also the weirdly fetishistic rape, almost rape, and torture scenes.

And also just the quality of the writing. This is still one of my favorite silly scenes in sff:

Hissing, hackles lifting, the chicken's head rose.

Kahlan pulled back.

Its claws digging into stiff dead flesh, the chicken slowly turned to face her. It cocked its head, making its comb flop, its wattles sway.

"Shoo," Kahlan heard herself whisper.

There wasn't enough light, and besides, the side of its beak was covered with gore, so she couldn't tell if it had the dark spot. But she didn't need to see it.

"Dear spirits, help me," she prayed under her breath.

The bird let out a slow chicken cackle. It sounded like a chicken, but in her heart she knew it wasn't. In that instant, she completely understood the concept of a chicken that was not a chicken. This looked like a chicken, like most of the Mud People's chickens. But this was no chicken.

This was evil manifest.

[Chromascope3D]

You know, the moment I saw this topic, I reckoned that it had to be related to the Lindsay video.

Yeah, I used to be one of those Twilight haters, but I don't really know why other than that me and my friends were all edgy teenage cynics, so hating popular stuff like Twilight, Transformers, etc. just came with the territory. This despite the fact that I myself have never actually read or watched any piece of Twilight media, obviously. It all seems so quaint when I look back on it now...

[Kyberwulf]

"Besides the insipid writing, nonsensical plots, Mary Sue character, barely-there worldbuilding and character development after the first couple of books, yawn-inducing villains, AND the ham-fisted shoving in of the author's political beliefs?

Nothing at all. "

I thought you were talking about Last Jedi there... except for the book part..



I have to disagree with the whole, "still think it was a book written in the fourth circle of hell by terrible demons to bring pain and horror to earth?"

It was never that good. I would have said, a book written by a 6th grader, lonely person just finding out how to be edgy. I think it has left the public court though. The current one is Last Jedi. Although I do think that it is moving as well.. We just have to wait for the next thing, for everyone to either Hate on... or love, despite the actual merits of the thing.

[Saph]

I agree with Lindsay Ellis critique of Twilight, Twilight is bad but many things are bad and we do not "dunk" on them with such extreme rage. Twilight dunking became an extreme Stand Alone Complex, to the point it was a hysteric movement, where men and some women are just mad at teen / tween / certain women liking certain styles of fiction and lets "dunk on them" as some form of tribalism.

This is pretty accurate, except that I'd say that Twilight really isn't all that bad. It gets more hate than it deserves because for many people, it's their first exposure to the romance genre (and YA romance in particular).

[BWR]

How could you tell the heroes and villains apart if they weren't constantly raping folk?



Seriously, how?

The author tells you who the good guys are. Duh.

Not that I've actually read the books in question, but hearing about the stuff in them does bring up what I consider an important aspect of fiction an especially RPGs: alternate morality.
I could (and started to but thought better of it) write a long post about this subject, but the core of the issue is that in works of fiction we have to accept that ethics are a bit different than they are IRL. Much like the laws of nature are different in a fantasy setting than IRL, what is considered good and evil in any given setting may vary greatly from whatever the reader (or author) actually feels. At some point you have to accept it or stop enjoying fiction created by other people. In the case of SoT, if killing peaceful protesters is considered a good act in that world, it is a good act. In essence it is no different than the killing of countless mooks because they happen to work for the BBEG being a good act .

[Serpentine]

By all accounts it's terribly written, and I haven't read the books but the more I think about the movie the more issues I thought of with it...

But I was deeply disappointed by the general response to the popularity of the Twilight books, and things like 50 Shades of Gray for that matter. It wasn't just a wasted opportunity, it was... whatever the far side of a wasted opportunity would be.
We, by which I mean "people who have read books for pleasure for our whole lives", saw a bunch of "non-readers" getting excited about a series and reading it voraciously and talking about it and speculating and writing fanart and so on... and we actively and maliciously excluded them from the "real readers" club. We dismissed their excitement. We insulted their intelligence. We told them that they and their stories "don't count".

When what we could have done was use it to invite them into our "club". We could have asked, "What do you like about these books?" We could have said, "Do you like the romance? Here's a list of 100 fantastic romances of various kinds you might enjoy. Perhaps Pride and Prejudice?" We could have said, "Do you like the monsters? Here's a list of 100 monstrous novels you might enjoy. How about some Stephen King?" We could have said, "Do you like the female protagonist? Here's... well, a somewhat smaller list of wonderful books with female protagonists. I recommend starting with Tamora Pierce."

Instead, we said, "You like Twilight? lol What an idiot. You have no taste. You romanticise abuse. You're such a ~~teenage girl~~" *gag*

We failed an entire generation of potential readers, because we took offence that a bad book got popular - or maybe, as I think some others have referred to, because a book for teenage girls got popular.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Look at me! Look at me sparkle! It's the skin of a predatoooooooor!
Are you scared yet? No?
Then let me rip a tree out, because I'm such a terrible predatoooooooor!
How about now? Still no?

Twilight was something I should have liked, it's the kind of story you just can't take seriously playing out in a world where drifting cars come out of nowhere in a schoolground, and nobody notices it when that car get stopped by a superhero, not even the person in it. Somehow the 100 year old self confessed murderer-pedophile with the social skills of a banana and the supernatural ability to suck the joy out of everything by being a whiny little **** ruins it completely though. It also doesn't help that the author has no sense of cool, and for instance thinks that the most visually appealing sport to play when you have superpowers is baseball, because all that happens is the field gets larger. It was like the complete anti-version of that "I know kung fu" scene from The Matrix. When I saw the movie I think I had seen a single ad for it and maybe heard one friend say they liked it, so I definitely wasn't preoccupied with how hard I should hate it, and it was still garbage. It has it's moments where the garbageness is fun, so it's more like Troll 2 than like an intentional turd like Attack of the Killer Tomatoes (I know, controversial opinion, I just don't find it funny), but it's not good. And from what I gather the source material only got worse as the series went on, although to the credit of the movies team I also heard they did some major rewrites and for instance included a big battle just because they could and they were having fun with the material, so it might be worth watching the other tree movies at some point. But no, I don't think I'm being too hard on it. It was a big hyped thing that sucked balls, and it only got worse from there with the several erotic novels that spawned from Twilight fan fiction and let's not forget the enabling some long since not funny anymore people by letting them sell four shot for shot remakes with even worse dialogue as parodies. The whole phenomenon sparked only sucky stuff, and it's fine if people point that out.

[GloatingSwine]

By all accounts it's terribly written, and I haven't read the books but the more I think about the movie the more issues I thought of with it...

Yeah, but then most YA is badly written. (Quite a lot of mass market adult fiction is also badly written).

The general premise is true though, people do criticise media for teen girls far out of proportion with its actual quality or lack thereof.


(Read Daughter of Smoke and Bone instead.)