So... Are we over hating Twilight now?

[S@tanicoaldo]

I'd never heard of Lindsay Ellis before this thread, and after watching that video (which didn't leave much of an impression on me as I missed the whole Twilight/Anti-Twilight phenomenon), I watched her

Lord of the Rings

review which was amusing, and then I watched her

Labyrinth

review, which was hilarious!

So thanks!

I absolutely love this sense of wonder and discovery you get ftom finding out about things in the internet, never lose that aspect of yourself 2D8HP it's so precious ^^

[Lemmy]

Well... It's still a ****ty franchise with ****ty characters and ****ty morals... It's just not relevant enough to warrant actual hatred.

[danzibr]

I know, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the "The males are hulking brutes but the females are super sexy" variety of folk tales come from people who were male themselves, and attracted to women Not to mention that the people who got to write it down and therefore determine what was canon and what was not were usually men – I recall reading that the Brothers Grimm heavily edited their collected folk tales to remove references to negative portrayals of (biological) parents and to negative father figures in general, contributing to the stereotype of the wicked stepmother.

This made me laugh. And rings so true.

[DomaDoma]

I also gather that a significant portion of fairy-tale writers were youngest sons. Well, definitely the writer of "Puss In Boots" was; pure wish-fulfillment there. Maybe the ones that don't specifically involve the youngest son getting realistically shafted in his father's will are just following the template.

[Suttle]

I also gather that a significant portion of fairy-tale writers were youngest sons. Well, definitely the writer of "Puss In Boots" was; pure wish-fulfillment there. Maybe the ones that don't specifically involve the youngest son getting realistically shafted in his father's will are just following the template.

Is that a thing? How many fary tales about the youngest son getting stuff can you name?

[DomaDoma]

I had a great big compendium of fairy tales that was rife with the things, but "The Golden Bird" is the only one I reread obsessively. (That poor, long-suffering fox.) Fortunately, Wikipedia has noticed, and can pick up my slack. Far from a complete list on that page - "Puss In Boots" doesn't even show - but a little wiki-walking in search of the tales I read as a child indicates that, though it mostly came my way via Germany, it's usually a Russian/Slavic theme in origin. Which is in keeping with how close Russian fairy tales generally stick to the seek-my-fortune trope.

EDIT: Unsurprisingly, TVTropes is more thorough on this one.

[Blackhawk748]

Since the fairy tale discussion is back, I thought of a second explanation for the "big ugly male/sexy female thing" besides men did it. Its almost a parody of what society valued in those genders. Men are ruthless, strong and can be brutal, women are beautiful, excellent homemakers, and unobtrusively intelligent. And I think Norse trolls embody this quite well.

Grendel is this ugly mass of muscle and fury, who runs off to murdilate the people who invaded his and his mother's domain. His mother, is significantly smarter than he is and is no longer fierce, just in a very different way.

[S@tanicoaldo]

That still doesn't explain why mermaids and mermen are so drastically different.

[Dr.Samurai]

I watched that video linked above.

I'm not seeing the paraphrased argument mentioned earlier. She never makes a case that legitimate critique of the "problematic" (I hate that word) parts of Twilight can't be appreciated because of the hysteria. She just says that we have a double standard because we hate teenage girls (apparently).

Half her argument is based on her own behavior so... I'm glad she's come around I guess? Seems typical that someone did something wrong and now is apologizing for it while at the same time moralizing at everyone else about it.

Anyways, this new sister I met through Ancestry... we're hanging out, and she shows me her phone, and it's a Facebook post I posted to an Eberron group about the Age of Giants. It's really going in on what the original giants were like and their size and the implications for Giant ruins, etc. And she's looking at me waiting for me to be embarrassed and I'm thinking "Oh, are we at that point now where we try to embarrass each other?" lol, so I shrug and say "I saw Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey on your bookshelf upstairs" and she immediately tried to tell me that someone just lent them to her and she hadn't really read them. And I felt bad because I thought we were just ribbing each other but she seemed genuinely embarrassed so I just told her it's cool, like what you like and don't worry about what other people think. Then we started talking about Twilight and it was fine.

Point being... I really can't get behind the sentiment in that video that anyone failed teenage girls. Girls are humans too lol, even teenage ones. They live in the real world. The real world can be a mean place. In fact, about the only thing most people can be sure of is that they aren't going to glide through life on easy mode. Hopefully all of those teenage girls and moms have come out of this experience not giving a flying **** what people like Lindsay Ellis and co. were saying and doing during Twilight's heyday. They should be able to like what they like without feeling shame, but that's on them, not on the rest of the world.

[Blackhawk748]

That still doesn't explain why mermaids and mermen are so drastically different.

I didn't realize they even were different

[Tvtyrant]

I didn't realize they even were different

Pretty sure they are referencing Greek myth, where sea monsters are anthropomorphized dangers at sea. Sirens were a reference to the common act of following sea birds to shore only to slam into nesting rocks, Scylla and charbydis referencing the way tides around rocks were treacherous and dodging whirlpools could get you whipped into the side of the rocks, etc.

[Suttle]

I didn't realize they even were different

Wel...

Spoiler: This is what a mermaid looks like

Show

Spoiler: This is what a merman looks like

Show

[Vinyadan]

Wel...

Spoiler: This is what a mermaid looks like

Show

OMG, someone inform the director of the Manchester Art Gallery!

[AMFV]

I don't know, I never really hated Twilight. I mean it wasn't my thing, but it wasn't any worse than a lot of the tripe I read when I was a kid. It's just trashy literature, and that's not really a bad thing, there's a ton of that around. And there will always be a ton of it.

[ThunderCat]

That still doesn't explain why mermaids and mermen are so drastically different.

I haven't observed much of a difference in the way merfolk are portrayed compared to any other fantasy creature, or humans for that matter. The males are generally portrayed older and uglier than the females no matter what the species is.

My personal headcannon is that in every fantasy world, it is customary for the men of the community to gather all the girl children and divide them into a pretty and ugly group. The latter are then culled from the heard so that only the prettiest are allowed to grow up. From childhood to young adulthood, the girls and women are usually left alone as long as they adhere to a strict diet and beauty regiment, but from the time they reach the age of 30, they're required to annually present themselves to a counsel of men who decide if they're pretty enough to live or should be disposed of. This explains why the men are so much older and more diverse in their appearance than women, as well as outnumbering them at least 3 to 1. It also explains why basically all old women in fantasy are witches – they're the only ones evil enough to oppose men's boners, and powerful enough to escape the customary death penalty for no longer being attractive.

Did I mention that most fantasy art creeps me out?

[S@tanicoaldo]

I haven't observed much of a difference in the way merfolk are portrayed compared to any other fantasy creature, or humans for that matter. The males are generally portrayed older and uglier than the females no matter what the species is.

My personal headcannon is that in every fantasy world, it is customary for the men of the community to gather all the girl children and divide them into a pretty and ugly group. The latter are then culled from the heard so that only the prettiest are allowed to grow up. From childhood to young adulthood, the girls and women are usually left alone as long as they adhere to a strict diet and beauty regiment, but from the time they reach the age of 30, they're required to annually present themselves to a counsel of men who decide if they're pretty enough to live or should be disposed of. This explains why the men are so much older and more diverse in their appearance than women, as well as outnumbering them at least 3 to 1. It also explains why basically all old women in fantasy are witches – they're the only ones evil enough to oppose men's boners, and powerful enough to escape the customary death penalty for no longer being attractive.

Did I mention that most fantasy art creeps me out?

But that’s my point, mermaids were just an exemple.

To be honest that trope is what eeeekkk me out of the pathfinder setting for good, I was reading one of the books and was like “Cool they have other planets to explore” “Oh boy one of the planets is clearly based on John carter mars I can’t wait!” But the hype soon turned in disgust when I got to the planet Castrovel.

A planet of Amazonian space babes, I tough to myself cool that’s cool very pulp sifi fiction covers I bet it’s also populated by hunky guys in lather and manly hunks but nope “The females of the species resemble idealized human women with antennae, while the males are short, squat and ugly" Really pathfinder? Really? Eww that’s so disgusting and juvenileI just can’t take that setting seriously anymore.

[ThunderCat]

A planet of Amazonian space babes, I tough to myself cool that’s cool very pulp sifi fiction covers I bet it’s also populated by hunky guys in lather and manly hunk but nope “The females of the species resemble idealized human women with antennae, while the males are short, squat and ugly" Really pathfinder? Really? Eww that’s so disgusting and juvenileI just can’t take that setting seriously anymore.

Ugh And Pathfinder is usually one of the good ones

Sometimes I wonder if the popularity of Twilight isn't at least partly because women are just desperate for anything which subverts the usual tropes.

[Liquor Box]

Wel...

Spoiler: This is what a mermaid looks like

Show

Spoiler: This is what a merman looks like

Show

Not sure that your merman is representative of what people think of as being a merman though. A simple google image search of the term ''merman" (link below) contains mostly pictures of attractive mermen.
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=me...w=1440&bih=854

[Peelee]

Not sure that your merman is representative of what people think of as being a merman though. A simple google image search of the term ''merman" (link below) contains mostly pictures of attractive mermen.
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=me...w=1440&bih=854

The first image of which has a rather surprisingly large amount of butt before the fish transition, clearly intended to be attractive.

[Liquor Box]

The first image of which has a rather surprisingly large amount of butt before the fish transition, clearly intended to be attractive.

I think all of the first ten images are intended to be attractive.

[Suttle]

Not sure that your merman is representative of what people think of as being a merman though. A simple google image search of the term ''merman" (link below) contains mostly pictures of attractive mermen.
https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=me...w=1440&bih=854

That's just the modern take of the legend, but the original ones are quite ugly and you won't find a handsome merman in any legend, book or fairy tale, unless is one of those trashy semi-erotic romance fantasies.

[Keltest]

That's just the modern take of the legend, but the original ones are quite ugly and you won't find a handsome merman in any legend, book or fairy tale, unless is one of those trashy semi-erotic romance fantasies.

On the other hand, the original mermaids weren't exactly attractive either.

[Lemmy]

But that’s my point, mermaids were just an exemple.

To be honest that trope is what eeeekkk me out of the pathfinder setting for good, I was reading one of the books and was like “Cool they have other planets to explore” “Oh boy one of the planets is clearly based on John carter mars I can’t wait!” But the hype soon turned in disgust when I got to the planet Castrovel.

A planet of Amazonian space babes, I tough to myself cool that’s cool very pulp sifi fiction covers I bet it’s also populated by hunky guys in lather and manly hunk but nope “The females of the species resemble idealized human women with antennae, while the males are short, squat and ugly" Really pathfinder? Really? Eww that’s so disgusting and juvenileI just can’t take that setting seriously anymore.

I'm honestly surprised by seeing this much repulsion to a trope that seems pretty harmless. It's cliché and maybe juvenile... But "disgusting"?! Enough to make you dislike a whole setting?!

It's not a very interesting trope, but also, that's one species of many... And the only in PF that follows that trope. Is having a single occurance of a trope you don't like really that grievous?

Well... To each their own, I guess...

[Themrys]

I haven't observed much of a difference in the way merfolk are portrayed compared to any other fantasy creature, or humans for that matter. The males are generally portrayed older and uglier than the females no matter what the species is.

My personal headcannon is that in every fantasy world, it is customary for the men of the community to gather all the girl children and divide them into a pretty and ugly group. The latter are then culled from the heard so that only the prettiest are allowed to grow up. From childhood to young adulthood, the girls and women are usually left alone as long as they adhere to a strict diet and beauty regiment, but from the time they reach the age of 30, they're required to annually present themselves to a counsel of men who decide if they're pretty enough to live or should be disposed of. This explains why the men are so much older and more diverse in their appearance than women, as well as outnumbering them at least 3 to 1. It also explains why basically all old women in fantasy are witches – they're the only ones evil enough to oppose men's boners, and powerful enough to escape the customary death penalty for no longer being attractive.

Did I mention that most fantasy art creeps me out?

That's a pretty good Watsonian explanation for fantasy art.

My Doylist explanation is that most of it is made by men. Whose lines of thinking are very similar to those you attribute to fantasy men.


Concerning mermaids and mermen ... yeah, the thing is that fantasy art is made by men.

There's some old folktales where there's handsome male fantasy creatures, old folktales being told by women to each other. Male selkie, who are rumoured to be extremely handsome and seductive can be contacted by shedding seven tears into the sea at high tide, in case you want to see for yourself. http://celticsociety.freeservers.com/selkie.html

As more and more women do fantasy art, more male mythical creatures are portrayed as sexy (which explains the disagreement on whether male merfolk are routinely portrayed as old and ugly, or not), and perhaps someday, there will be women who dare to draw female characters that aren't boner-inducing.

@Lemmy: Yeah, misogyny, even in its most harmless and juvenile form, is disgusting. Why wouldn't it be?

Such a fantasy species is either inspired by the fact that the male inventor of it is short, squat and ugly himself, and thinks he is entitled to superhumanly beautiful women, and enforces this on a fantasy species ... or he is an averagely ugly dude and likes to fantasize that the females of that species with ugly males would settle for him because the men of their own species are even uglier.

Both very nasty, once you really think about it. I wouldn't touch a man who invents such a species with a ten foot pole.

[Lemmy]

@Lemmy: Yeah, misogyny, even in its most harmless and juvenile form, is disgusting. Why wouldn't it be?

Such a fantasy species is either inspired by the fact that the male inventor of it is short, squat and ugly himself, and thinks he is entitled to superhumanly beautiful women, and enforces this on a fantasy species ... or he is an averagely ugly dude and likes to fantasize that the females of that species with ugly males would settle for him because the men of their own species are even uglier.

Both very nasty, once you really think about it. I wouldn't touch a man who invents such a species with a ten foot pole.

It's a reaaaaaally big leap from "females of this species are attractive by human standards" to "the writer is sexist against women". Unless you think attractive female characters can't have any other positive or interesting qualities.

And if you think those are the only two possible explanations of why a male writer would create such a species... Well... Then you calling the author sexist is quite hypocritical.

[Forum Explorer]

But that’s my point, mermaids were just an exemple.

To be honest that trope is what eeeekkk me out of the pathfinder setting for good, I was reading one of the books and was like “Cool they have other planets to explore” “Oh boy one of the planets is clearly based on John carter mars I can’t wait!” But the hype soon turned in disgust when I got to the planet Castrovel.

A planet of Amazonian space babes, I tough to myself cool that’s cool very pulp sifi fiction covers I bet it’s also populated by hunky guys in lather and manly hunk but nope “The females of the species resemble idealized human women with antennae, while the males are short, squat and ugly" Really pathfinder? Really? Eww that’s so disgusting and juvenileI just can’t take that setting seriously anymore.

I imagine you don't like Asari either then.

[No brains]

Honestly when I heard how the Castrovel people looked, that made me think they were doing something where elves and dwarves are the same species. I thought I saw that done in something else before too.

Also, aren't the John Carter books products of their time themselves? I wouldn't expect 100-year-old pulp novels to be very progressive.

[Ramza00]

We were talking about Twilight earlier, and how a Lindsay Ellis video essay kind of started this discussion (Dear Stephanie Meyer: I'm Sorry). Well with the fact we are now talking about mermans and the shape of water, I find it not really ironic but also ironic with all the repetition and reversals back and forth we are now on the subject of the most recent Lindsay Ellis video essay that was published Yesterday.



My Monster Boyfriend (which is about Shape of Water, Beauty and the Beast, Monsters, and cinema.)

[Ramza00]

Also followup post (which I did separate so I can embedded a 2nd video) but here is a La'Ron Readus video essay, The Shape of Water: Falling In Love With Monsters.



Note this is the same guy and video that is in the Lindsay Ellis video cameo from above, and Lindsay does a Cameo in the La'Ron Readus Shape of Water video.

But yeah continue talking about everything, including mermans and monsters, but also other things. Return to the discussion

[S@tanicoaldo]

It's a reaaaaaally big leap from "females of this species are attractive by human standards" to "the writer is sexist against women". Unless you think attractive female characters can't have any other positive or interesting qualities.

And if you think those are the only two possible explanations of why a male writer would create such a species... Well... Then you calling the author sexist is quite hypocritical.

They are not "females of this species are attractive by human standards" but "idealized human women with antennae" so a race compsoed of nothing BUt amazonian alien super models. which is quite silly already with out the fact taht their male counterparts porbrably look somethign likme this:

Spoiler

Show

I imagine you don't like Asari either then.

It's been a while since I played mass effect, but I believe the Asari are a female only race, right? Why would that be a problem if I'm Cleary bothered by the fact that male members of the planet Castrovel are ugly.

Unless you misunderstood me, then allow me to clarify, I have no problem in people making an entire race of sexy Amazonian alien models, go for it! I think it's awesome, I just hate the fact that the male members don't get the same treatment.

Why can't the famale readers and palyers get their sexy hunky alien warriors too?

Also, aren't the John Carter books products of their time themselves? I wouldn't expect 100-year-old pulp novels to be very progressive.

Well to me at elast they are great books, besides the awesome and truly alien setting, the guys are just as handsome and naked as the women.

But yeah continue talking about everything, including mermans and monsters, but also other things. Return to the discussion

That movie is a perfect exemple of how a merman is bestial while a mermaid is humanoid.(But I have to addimit that creature butt was oooooon point).

This is perfectly ilustrated by Dimitri from Darkstalkers:

Spoiler

Show