New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Lincoln NE
    Gender
    Male

    Default Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Simple: how can a character in game tell they have a negative level? Do they feel that something is wrong or do they have to be observed by someone who would know what to look for or what?

    Mostly looking to help limit metagaming.

    Thanks!
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire..."

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Tennessee
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Like HP, HD and negative levels are abstract concepts. I've seen negative levels likened to "killing someone gently", so your character would feel weaker, more sickly. If down to their last HD, they would likely know themselves to be on the brink of death.
    Extended Signature

    Words of Wisdom from other Playgrounders:
    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    Like your own little harem of jealous wearable anime girls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masterkerfuffle View Post
    I've seen horsemancers absolutely shred campaigns.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Given the effect of a negative level, they would feel noticeably weakened. If it was dealt by a hidden method and they haven't experienced negative levels before, they may think it was a curse or disease instead, but they would know something was wrong.

    Once they started getting close to death from negative levels (past halfway), I'd say there were even more notable effects - feeling like they might pass out at random times, sudden sensations of dread for no reason, darkness encroaching at the edge of their vision, etc.

    Also, I'd think that the moment of taking a negative level would be painful, or at least highly unpleasant.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zanos's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Having your life force sapped should definitely be something you can feel, although knowing exactly what it is might require some kind of knowledge check.
    If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    It’s not a hard-coded rule in 3.5, but with certain exceptions (mostly related to mind control), I like 4e’s global rule that “creatures are aware of the effects on them.” It’s not perfect and you can find examples of when it’s not a great rule, but in the aggregate, I think it’s a rule that solves more problems than it causes. Especially with regard to keeping things running smoothly at the table.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    New Jersey, doh.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Negative levels make you worse at everything. A beatstick should be able to swing a metal object back and forth and tell he's not 100%. If you are strict about metagaming, he likely can't tell the difference between 2 and 3 negative levels, but between 0 and 1 should be obvious.

    No true RAW answer for 3.5, but I've always felt an adventurer is self-aware of his capabilities.

    Also agree the inflicting of a negative level is significant and identifiable event, he isn't going to forget it until completely healed.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Esprit15's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    The Middle of Nowhere
    Gender
    Intersex

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    I tend to fluff it as a general feeling of illness that pervades everything you do. Your limbs ache, your body is heavy feeling, you’re short of breath, your mind is cloudy, you’re jumpy, and irritable, etc. These might be minor (small amount on a high level character) or severe (any amount on a low level character), but they affect everything about you. At maybe half your HD, you would probably just want to curl up and sleep rather than do anything. More than that and you actually feel like you’re dying.
    Last edited by Esprit15; 2018-01-25 at 02:22 AM.
    Awesome avatar by Cuthalion

    Spoiler: Old Avatars
    Show


    By Ceika, Ceika, Linklel (Except for one that appears to be lost to time)

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    "I feel thin, Gandalf. Like butter scraped over too much bread."

    Tolkien to the rescue.
    "The trick with Psionics isn't looking for what's good, it's looking for what makes everything else better."

    Spoiler: The False Nose of Vecna.
    Show

    Make a disguise check every time you encounter someone new.

    If the d20 roll results in a 13 (without modifiers) that person automatically assumes you are Vecna in a very poor disguise, and cannot be convinced otherwise, short of a wish spell.

    Minor Artifact.


    In memory of Monty Oum, 1981-2015.
    The world is a little less bright, now that it lacks you.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Quarian Rex's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I like 4e’s global rule that “creatures are aware of the effects on them.”
    I've never heard of that (not a fan of 4e) but that is a great rule of thumb to softcode into a game. I've never been a fan of saying that a character is unaware of the effects on them, probably because the only time I've seen it brought up was when the DM was trying to railroad the game. In a world where supernatural events are actually real it is pretty natural to assume that the natives will have an awareness of such things that would border on genre-savviness. In a world where characters have a tangible soul it makes sense for them to understand what is happening when it is being drained/suppressed/whatever, even if only at an instinctive level.

    That, and the assumption that the victim doesn't or can't understand what is happening to them adds a disproportionate amount of additional power to the offensive ability. There are entire feats/items/class features/etc. that are devoted to obfuscating spells and abilities so the target doesn't realize what is happening. Assuming that as a default completely devalues all such options.

    Characters can be aware of what is happening without devaluing the effects either. A charm spell is still effective even if afterwards the victim realizes that they were being mind-tricked by the creepy guy who was somehow their best friend for a few days and then suddenly... wasn't. Can this be mitigated? Sure. If a charm caster takes his victim for an ale, listens to some jokes, and asks some opinions on world events (you know, putting up the minimum required to maintain a "friendship"), the charm-ee could be left thinking that the charming stranger was a swell guy, and it would be great to hang out the next time he passed through town. And those favors weren't too much trouble after all. If the charm caster just makes some demands, has them met, and is on his way, the charm-ee is left wondering why they thought the rude (and unreasonably demanding) jerk that they had never met before was (suddenly) their best friend (and then not). Once the spell wears off and they are allowed to consider that magic is a thing that exists in the world they get the not so sudden realization that 2+2=mindrape.

    Same thing with energy drain. Feeling a slice of your soul being sucked out of you would probably be unmistakable. Saying that the character has no idea what happened, so don't bother looking for someone to cast Restoration on you, is a recipe for permanent negative levels that could have been in the characters power to prevent.

    That seems to have turned into more of a rant that I was expecting. It is late/early. Me go now.
    Avatar of awesome goodness courtesy of Cdr.Fallout.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Crake's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarian Rex View Post
    I've never heard of that (not a fan of 4e) but that is a great rule of thumb to softcode into a game. I've never been a fan of saying that a character is unaware of the effects on them, probably because the only time I've seen it brought up was when the DM was trying to railroad the game. In a world where supernatural events are actually real it is pretty natural to assume that the natives will have an awareness of such things that would border on genre-savviness. In a world where characters have a tangible soul it makes sense for them to understand what is happening when it is being drained/suppressed/whatever, even if only at an instinctive level.

    That, and the assumption that the victim doesn't or can't understand what is happening to them adds a disproportionate amount of additional power to the offensive ability. There are entire feats/items/class features/etc. that are devoted to obfuscating spells and abilities so the target doesn't realize what is happening. Assuming that as a default completely devalues all such options.

    Characters can be aware of what is happening without devaluing the effects either. A charm spell is still effective even if afterwards the victim realizes that they were being mind-tricked by the creepy guy who was somehow their best friend for a few days and then suddenly... wasn't. Can this be mitigated? Sure. If a charm caster takes his victim for an ale, listens to some jokes, and asks some opinions on world events (you know, putting up the minimum required to maintain a "friendship"), the charm-ee could be left thinking that the charming stranger was a swell guy, and it would be great to hang out the next time he passed through town. And those favors weren't too much trouble after all. If the charm caster just makes some demands, has them met, and is on his way, the charm-ee is left wondering why they thought the rude (and unreasonably demanding) jerk that they had never met before was (suddenly) their best friend (and then not). Once the spell wears off and they are allowed to consider that magic is a thing that exists in the world they get the not so sudden realization that 2+2=mindrape.

    Same thing with energy drain. Feeling a slice of your soul being sucked out of you would probably be unmistakable. Saying that the character has no idea what happened, so don't bother looking for someone to cast Restoration on you, is a recipe for permanent negative levels that could have been in the characters power to prevent.

    That seems to have turned into more of a rant that I was expecting. It is late/early. Me go now.
    This is generally what knowledge checks and spellcraft checks are for. Imagine for a moment that a caster is charmed. If they are aware that they have been charmed, wouldn't they instantly attempt to dispel the effect? A normal person might instantly avoid contact with others, to avoid being influenced by the spell. Knowing about after the fact is a deduction, not just an instant awareness of the effect on you.

    Negative levels can be similar. If you have no idea what a wight is, and you get hit by one, you'll probably feel weaker, sure, but you won't know WHY. As stated by someone else earlier, it could be a curse, it could be a disease, it could be a poison, who knows. Similarly, a succubus giving you a kiss, you'll feel weak at the knees, but you may quite easily just pass it off as the reaction of being kissed by a beautiful woman. Having knowledge (the planes) or knowledge (religion) is what you use to understand what's happening, or in the case of spells, spellcraft. If you lack these skills that are used to identify things, I don't think it's unreasonable to obfuscate the effects on a character.
    World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
    The new Quick Vestige List

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Doesn't that kinda make Charm spells pointless if the target is aware they are under a Charm effect?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lvl 2 Expert's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Tulips Cheese & Rock&Roll
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    I treat all concepts like this as shorthands for what the character knows or feels. Once the player knows that jump is DC15 the character knows that "it looks a little tricky, but without the distraction from those orcs I could make it easily". Similarly if the player was told that their character has negative levels the character will feel weaker, less up to certain tasks. They can't put abstract numbers on it like the player can, but they do have a good idea of what the effect does.

    EDIT:Okay, unless you have a good reason not to do it like that, as in the case of a charm spell. Good point.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2018-01-25 at 09:29 AM.
    The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordaedil View Post
    Doesn't that kinda make Charm spells pointless if the target is aware they are under a Charm effect?
    Well, yeah. That’s why I put in a statement about how the “creatures are aware of effects on them” rule usually shouldn’t apply in the case of mind control.

    Even in 4e (where that’s an actual hard-coded rule), though, there are examples of powers that address this concern. “Instant Friends” is basically a 4eified Charm Person, and it has several clauses about how the target doesn’t realize or remember that the effect is on it (unless you try and fail to get the power to work against someone higher level than you, which honestly seems like a reasonable restriction to me). Or for another example, the Assassin class has an ability called “shrouds,” which basically lets them lay something like a curse on a target to let them do more damage against that target. (It’s problematic for other reasons, but we aren’t talking about that now.) It’s difficult to layer the shrouds multiple layers deep while in combat, but if anyone should be able to sneak up on someone, study them unseen for, oh, about three rounds, and then deliver a big attack with a lot of bonus damage, it should be an Assassin, right? Assassins can gain an ability that says that targets that you’re hidden from aren’t aware of your shrouds, allowing exactly that sort of setup without the universal knowledge rule interfering.

    Specific beats general, and we can code specific exceptions into Charm-style effects (and other effects where deceiving the target about what’s happening to them is the whole point of the effect). Sure, it takes a tiny bit more forethought than laying down a one-and-done blanket rule, especially when applying said rule to an existing system rather than building a new system from the ground up with full knowledge of the rule’s intent, but I still say that the baseline assumption is valuable.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

    ~ Gay all day, queer all year ~

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Necroticplague's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Anything that impacts your performance should be noticeable. I like to give little nethack-style messages for such things. For negative levels, I typically go with a deep fatigue, since negative levels usually come from sapping your life forces.
    Avatar by TinyMushroom.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Level drain impacts everything: attack, saves, skill checks, spells. You can't possibly not notice.

    Everyone had been tired before, and can tell that this isn't that. This is something far, far worse.

    Any halfway competent adventure will have trained his protege / apprentice about the existence of "life drain" effects. Anyone seeing something that could cause such an effect should get an appropriate knowledge check. Anyone seeing such an effect happen should get an appropriate knowledge check. Anyone seeing someone under the effects of level drain should get an appropriate knowledge check and/or heal check.

    In short, just metagame it. It's way easier than the alternative.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2018-01-25 at 10:03 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zanos's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordaedil View Post
    Doesn't that kinda make Charm spells pointless if the target is aware they are under a Charm effect?
    IIRC you interpret everything the caster does in the best possible light, so clearly he had a good reason to Charm you.

    But yeah, spellcraft will tell you of a charm effect pretty explicitly.
    If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Lincoln NE
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Characters awareness of Negative Level

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    This is generally what knowledge checks and spellcraft checks are for. Imagine for a moment that a caster is charmed. If they are aware that they have been charmed, wouldn't they instantly attempt to dispel the effect? A normal person might instantly avoid contact with others, to avoid being influenced by the spell. Knowing about after the fact is a deduction, not just an instant awareness of the effect on you.

    Negative levels can be similar. If you have no idea what a wight is, and you get hit by one, you'll probably feel weaker, sure, but you won't know WHY. As stated by someone else earlier, it could be a curse, it could be a disease, it could be a poison, who knows. Similarly, a succubus giving you a kiss, you'll feel weak at the knees, but you may quite easily just pass it off as the reaction of being kissed by a beautiful woman. Having knowledge (the planes) or knowledge (religion) is what you use to understand what's happening, or in the case of spells, spellcraft. If you lack these skills that are used to identify things, I don't think it's unreasonable to obfuscate the effects on a character.
    This was my thought exactly. I agree that once you gain a negative level a problem would be apparent. I think it makes sense for an applicable knowledge check to determine the exact problem, in this case a negative level. Thanks for the suggestion.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire..."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •