Results 271 to 300 of 307
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2018-02-01, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Corvallis, OR
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Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
Yeah. I don't mind a "reluctant/unskilled but steps up/learns" character. I'm not to fond of slice of life as a general rule (since my tastes lean to the fantastic and active--I strongly dislike novels with no plot), but as a side thing it can work.
One of the best sessions I've had with a group was when we spent the whole time with a group of (friendly) goblins--interacting with the kids, helping the gatherers/fishers, etc. It was even meaningful--it changed a formerly stuck-up, xenophobic high elf character into someone much more friendly because the kids took a liking to him (and were egged on by the psychic warlock). Only one player could talk to them, so there were lots of hand-signs, telepathic broadcasts, and other work-arounds. It was a nice pause in a high-tension time.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2018-02-01, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
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2018-02-01, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
Try to get into an actual mythic mindset: You kill the god Rhein, the river Rhein that is is the essence of ceases to exist, slowly but surely, at the same rate the body of the god Rhein decays. The clerics, prophets and oracles of Rhein will surely pull their hair, rage, weep and cry as their power wanes...
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2018-02-01, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
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2018-02-01, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
"Who killed the god Rhein?"
"I heard it was the elves of Ildur"
"The priest of Nocticula said it was the Lady Shadow herself!"
"No, it was the wanderer Lilt, with a staff carved from the world tree,"
"Wasn't it the hellknights?"
"Rhein never died, that the Heart of Celestial Plane of Keltar, being consumed by the Abyss. Lilt just witnessed it"Last edited by Boci; 2018-02-01 at 04:40 PM.
"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
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2018-02-01, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
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- Texas
- Gender
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
It's a little like going to the gym for a pick up basketball game. When you are new in town.
Where do you think all of that treasure comes from?
Yeah, see also sharkbait.
Yes.
Your answer is here. (on page 47 if your browser doesn't take you to the page)
There are something like 4000 RPGs, and I think most of them are in print. Chances are there's something for everyone. It make take some looking, though.Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2018-02-01, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Location
- In the Playground, duh.
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2018-02-01, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
I've made characters (and known people ) somewhat like the inept one you mentioned (Quertus doesn't qualify - he's the best there is at Spellcraft, and very adept in numerous areas, just not at the combat focus of D&D), but it's hardly my default, and "hide when things get dangerous" honestly isn't a bad plan for many characters.
But I still don't understand what you're trying to get at by this whole unnamed NPC tertiary concept. Do you perhaps mean that they have all the impact and personality of wet cardboard?
I'm so glad my GMs don't make that requirement - roughly half my characters are actually a previously ascended deity "in disguise", because I can't make up that many different personalities that quickly.
I'm not quite them, but perhaps I can shed some light on the topic?
I view an RPG as many things. But, first and foremost, as an opportunity to roleplay.
I'm a war gamer at heart. But I never understood how some people could play the same game for years - or even decades - and still not see the elephant, still not get it. How they could possibly be so bad when they have so much experience? This was quite a puzzle to me.
So I built Quertus, my signature character for whom this account is named, to explore that aspect of the human condition. I made Quertus as a head in the clouds academic, who fervently believes* that a) he is not trained for battle; b) he lacks the aptitude for combat; c) it is most unbecoming for someone of his station to attempt to learn such arts; d) he lacks the tools necessary for battle; e) there is some "secret sauce" that proper war mages are taught; f) his successes** can be attributed to him focusing on the "not combat" side of things. I further cemented this mindset from another direction, by having Quertus have lost family in the war when he was young, making him not relish fighting, plus making him a slight coward.
So, by stacking the deck as far as possible towards Quertus being as difficult as possible to train in combat tactics, I created a character who successfully emulated the tactical ineptitude of some of the players I knew. And, as it turned out, I loved the character! As an added bonus, in "mage superiority 3e", he didn't overshadow the Fighter or Monk, even at epic level. Win/win!
* mind you, this is the first time I've ever tried to put all that in writing. It's certainly not something any PC, player, or GM has ever known about Quertus.
** which, to date, include saving over 100 worlds from "end of the world" scenarios.
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2018-02-01, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
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- toulouse
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Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
that is pretty cool, and i'm sure quertus is actually useful to the team, despite thinking he isn't cut out for the adventuring life. i mean, you can't exactly save over 100 worlds and be a complete load. your take on it still has some crunch merit, even if your fluff does read like quertus is a cowardly incompetent in a fight.
i was specifically referring to a guy who in a high-op game would try and play an npc class like an expert. the character, by 3rd level would be eclipsed by even the least intelligent member of the team in skills alone, nevermind combat capability or even expertise. that's not anti-op, that's anti-game. the only reasoning i can come up with would be selfishness, "i am willingly going against the grain of the team so you'll pay attention to me and how much i suck. if you don't adjust the campaign to my character i won't have fun so you have to pander to my whims, and don't you dare try to have fun without me". in a sense, that's like throwing a powergaming barbarian in an intrigue-heavy game, but with a dude who specializes his optimization the wrong way around. if the entire team is onboard, i guess that's fine, but it really seems spiteful if it's thrown out of left field. know what i mean?
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2018-02-01, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
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- San Francisco Bay area
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Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
"If you could just roll until you had statistics you were satisfied"....
Um, I don't understand at all your point about "Feats", and I don't see where this is in anyway related to "Need to play" unless you meant "Need to play the most powerful character possible in the game".
I think you just undercut the argument you made in the threads initial post.
There's a reason this is called "being a Munchkin".
How old are you?
..Min-maxing is one of those things people say they dont care about, but they really do some degree. I dont see people willingly using the minimum statistics possible and trying to just play. Its more like you want 14 all round rather than 5 Charisma and 20 strength.
Some prefer being a "Jack of all trades" rather than a "Master of one".
I'm still not getting your point.
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2018-02-01, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
Look at any number of fantasy or science fiction books.
There may well be any number of characters mentioned in passing, or who are in a scene or two. Say, a shopkeeper when the POV characters go shopping for whatever it comes up they need. Or a random servant in a castle. Or the guy who keeps the "black water" systems running on a big starship, who takes them through the bowels (heh) of the ship when they're investigating a missing passenger.
The character is good at their job, maybe has notable personality... but they are who they are, and they do what they do. They don't have motivations or skills or abilities or whatever to go out and "do protagonisty stuff". They are at most a secondary character (outside of lit-fic).
They're not the character you build a book around, and they're not the character you play in most RPG campaigns, because their entire goal is going to be to get away from what's going wrong, get back to their job and family, and not get hurt by all the craziness going on.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-02-01, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
This is very d20 specific. The motto here is: "Everything is a feat", so more or less, you cannot do it unless you've got the feat that "allows" you doing it. You can't say: "I grip my sword in both hands and really put my back into a powerful swing", unless you've got the Power Attack feat, which in turn in coupled to certain prerequisites, like a minimum Strength score.
So, basically, the feats and prerequisites dictate what you need for what you want to play. That doesn't even have to be the "most powerful thing", as even weak or "trap" options function this way.
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2018-02-01, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
I think if you read some of his posts in this thread, all shall become clear. (Chaosticket becomes very offended that he can't play One Shot Man in 5th ed.)Last edited by Arbane; 2018-02-01 at 06:34 PM.
Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
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2018-02-01, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
This is actually one of the more fun bits of jargon for the hobby - the Air Breathing Mermaid Problem.
The way the ABMP works is that you have a mermaid. Their description says that they can breath in water, and says absolutely nothing about whether or not they can breath in air. Then, a feat comes out: Air-Breathing, which you can take as a mermaid to be able to breathe in air. That feat has now established that all the mermaids without that feat can't breathe in air, and thus taken away their capability.
There are a lot of systems where feats, powers, talents, etc. work in such a way as to create air breathing mermaid problems. Power Attack is one of those.
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2018-02-01, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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- San Francisco Bay area
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Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
Why not?
We did it in OD&D and AD&D, you just add the word "try to", and rolled the usual "to hit".
What do "Feats" have to do with basic flavoring/fluff?
I never played 3e/3.5/4e WD&D, and for what 5e I've played I haven't much used the Feats options, so I'm probably missing something.
Oh, it's that guy again, the one who kept comparing things to video games I haven't played, and asked
He was wrong about who's "gamers" (unless he meant "video gamers"), but he's right about "speaking using different languages", as I don't get the "Need" for Feats anymore than whatever he meant by "strategies against Sephiroth or Diablo".
I'm just not hip to his jive, so I'm out.
TEN-FOUR GOOD BUDDY!
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2018-02-02, 04:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
They're "permissive" systems. A "feat" grants you the permission to do something and use both, the fluff and the crunch of it. Power Attack is a classic example for an "enabler feat", because once you have it, you are now able to use the fluff ("with a cry of furious anger, I swing my axe in broad and powerful swings...") and the crunch ("... -2 to hit, +4 to damage").
That has two effects:
1) Stuff like that is non-negotionable. Once you have the feat, you can use the feat, no gm involved.
2) They're unique. 4 Fighter, same attributes and race, different feats act and function very different from each other, both in fluff as in crunch.
Think of it like this: 5E has everything "pre-packaged". Your Fighter starts with one weapon style choice and one sub-class choice later on. The 3E Fighter must assemble both, style and sub-class, solely from available feats. That gives you great freedom, but also he very annoying people that complain when they cannot recreate their favorite League of Legends or Anime character, because that's not really supported.
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2018-02-02, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
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2018-02-02, 07:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
Which ties into the "pet peeves" thread for me.
Many of the Feats are perfect examples of taking something that should be basic to adventuring, basic to using a weapon, basic to using magic, and turning into a yes/no that's locked behind buying the Feat.
IMO, a lot of what's locked away there should be bonuses to "maneuvers" or "stunts" or whatever you want to call them that would be basic parts of the rules, instead.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-02-02 at 07:30 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-02-02, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- 30.2672° N, 97.7431° W
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Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
"Sleeping late might not be a virtue, but it sure aint no vice. The old saw about the early bird and the worm just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
- L. Long
I think, therefore I get really, really annoyed at people who won't.
"A plucky band of renegade short-order cooks fighting the Empire with the power of cheap, delicious food and a side order of whup-ass."
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2018-02-02, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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2018-02-02, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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- Corvallis, OR
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Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2018-02-02, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
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2018-02-02, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- The Lakes
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
There's actually debate going back 1000s of years as to the color of Sirius.
Spoiler
Given the total and complete non-sequitur involved in the post that kicked this off ("if we follow that logic" having nothing whatsoever to do with the post it was in turn a reply to... in the slightest), this has been about the level of seriousness that said post deserved in response.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-02-02, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
Letīs try to keep this discussion Sirius, ok?
The problem with "basics", often based on "verisimilitude", is the level of abstraction of most games not being able to handle them in the slightest, out of necessity. I think it is "basic" that a well-placed "headshot" should insta-kill, yet, most systems canīt and won't handle that and those that can try to avoid using it against the player characters, for obvious reasons.
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2018-02-02, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
If an RPG system tells me that my character can't try for a headshot on an unaware stationary target, despite my character having a maxed-out skill in "rifles", because my character doesn't have the "headshot" feat or talent or "gambit" or whatever it might be called in said system... I'm going to go looking for another system.
If an RPG system tells me that my character can't use her shield to try to slam it against a foe to knock them backwards towards a cliff edge, because I haven't given her the "Push" feat... I'm going to go looking for another system.
If an RPG system tells me that my character can't even attempt to move quietly into the bushes and try to avoid a passing guard, no matter how agile and perceptive the character might be, because my character doesn't have that "class ability"... I'm going to go looking for another system.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-02-02 at 11:28 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-02-02, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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- Corvallis, OR
- Gender
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
What about "this system doesn't model called shots at that level. For anyone."
These two I agree with, and I agree in general. Locking normal maneuvers (like grappling, pushing, proning, etc) behind feat gates detracts from the rest of the system. Even if they're theoretically possible without the feats but you're likely to get killed doing it (and be ineffective at it)--CF grappling without Improved Unarmed Strike in 3e D&D.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2018-02-02, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
While a reasonable complaint to a degree - feats, merits, etc. can tend to get into an "Air-Breathing Mermaid" problem - this also can be carried too far to the other extreme, where, "If a system tells me I can't perform brain surgery, no matter how dexterous, intelligent, and knowledgeable about brains he is, without having the 'brain surgery' skill, I'm looking for another system," sounds 'reasonable.'
The issue being that, if your character does have that talent, skill, etc., then maybe you should have the mechanical tool that represents your character being able to do it.
Again, it's a matter of figuring out where the line needs to be drawn. D&D 3e tended, towards the middle of its life, to start inventing "feats" that were Air-Breathing Mermaid merits. Things that you could theoretically have done using underlying, existing mechanics if that feat didn't exist, which now you have to take that feat in order to do. This is a problem. But it is important not to let the possibility of this problem cause you to argue that your character should be able to do X without Y just because he has Z. You can't sneak past the guard with your high Dex and Perception when you don't have Stealth. Well, you can try, but your Perception isn't going to help and your raw Dex is probably not enough.
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2018-02-02, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
That's a separate question, I think. It doesn't really fall under this particular gripe of mine.
I really prefer it if the game has a complete accessible combat system, and then Feats (or whatever it calls them) serve to provide different bonuses/offsets for those maneuvers.
Doing brain surgery without any knowledge of it would be bad, yes.
What I'm talking about is more like "you have max 'ranks' in the brainsurgery skill, and 99th percentile scores in Dex, Int, and Per... but without the Excise Cancer Feat on top of it, you can't even remove a small benign tumor from someone's brain, sorry, not allowed".
Depends on how the system handles "attributes" vs "skills" and how they interact, to some degree.
But in the Stealth example, it would be more like "only certain types of characters are allowed to even buy the Stealth skill at all"... or "even if you have Stealth, you also need this class special ability to do things that would seem to be basic functions of "being good at sneaking around quietly and unseen".
(Sorry, I'm struggling a bit today, I ate something with a lot more sugar in it than I realized, and on an empty stomach, and way too early in the day... so my brain is wonky... yay blood sugar issues.)Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-02-02 at 12:29 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-02-02, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
That reminds me of Savage Worlds called shot to the head and "the drop". Make it a "wild attack" and now you have +2 to-hit and +10 Damage in a game where the average toughness is 5 and 4 damage over toughness kills most people. Specials would need 16 over toughness to incapacitate then right away, but anything between 4-16 will heavily wound them. So players and bosses have ways to survive it but mooks don't.
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2018-02-02, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2017
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- Springfield, MO
Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?
Can someone close this thread? Its dragging on and It hasnt been on topic since a week ago..
Last edited by Chaosticket; 2018-02-02 at 06:32 PM.