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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Can someone close this thread? Its dragging on and It hasnt been on topic since a week ago..
    Oh, and here I thought people were still having a discussion, it just moved on from a narrow single question.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  2. - Top - End - #302
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Can someone close this thread? Its dragging on and It hasnt been on topic since a week ago..
    Here's the forum rules, they cover the proceedure for getting a thread closed: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
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  3. - Top - End - #303
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    2D8HP's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    I find it fascinating that you create a thread for something you answer yourself, even in the very question you ask.....

    ...How on earth did this thread get so long from such a simple question?
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    ...Your answer is here. (on page 47 if your browser doesn't take you to the page)
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    Don't you hate it when a perfectly good debate gets ruined by triceratops?



    That post made the thread worthwhile!
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  4. - Top - End - #304
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosticket View Post
    Can someone close this thread? Its dragging on and It hasnt been on topic since a week ago..
    There was no way the thread was going to wind up any different.

    Numbers "vs" Imagination is the one religious argument that's allowed to repeatedly flame up on these forums, and the results are invariably sharply divisive. Just wait until you see the process of spin-off threads!
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  5. - Top - End - #305
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateWench

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    Default Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Doing brain surgery without any knowledge of it would be bad, yes.

    What I'm talking about is more like "you have max 'ranks' in the brainsurgery skill, and 99th percentile scores in Dex, Int, and Per... but without the Excise Cancer Feat on top of it, you can't even remove a small benign tumor from someone's brain, sorry, not allowed".
    By the looks of it, it seems your problem is more when systems limit you from even attempting an action. That is, if you have a shield you should be able to try and push someone over a cliff without needing some sort of extra stuff. Whether or not you are successful is another matter.

    Similarly, you should always be able to attempt brain surgery, but without specialized training (which even a general M.D. doesn't cover), you are not likely to be very successful.

    The thing to realize with the Feats is that they are actually that; specialized training. In the case of brain surgery, if there is such a skill it would represent your theoretical knowledge whereas the Feat represents actual practical training. You should still be able to attempt it untrained, though suffer some negative modifiers. Sort of like how you can always Dual Wield weapons in D&D 3.X but without the Feat, you'll have higher penalties.

    So yes, Feats should not be a case of "nope, you can't even attempt this thing without it", but they can represent specialized training in a certain maneuver that will make it much easier to succeed.

    I'm not saying all Feats work like that. Some do, and some don't. It's a bit of a mess really.
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  6. - Top - End - #306
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Feb 2015

    Default Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?

    Many systems gate stuff this way.

    Often that is not that much of a problem. Many things do require special knowledge and should be impossible without. Common examples include language skills and literacy. Usually there are some questionable choices like the hiding/sneaking as class ability in AD&D2 or "tie knots" as trained only skill in TDE4, but in general it works.

    The problems start when skills already exist and then the applications for those skills are all hidden behind feat equivalents to make them somewhot rare. Suddenly you have persons who are trained experts in some fields who can't any of the applications of that field.

    Another problem is using specializations to gate stuff but limit the number of specializations someone can have in a field. Suddenly it becomes harder/impossibleto learn something that is close to something you already know than to lern something as difficult that is completely new.

  7. - Top - End - #307
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why is min-maxing bad when you need it to play?

    One of the few good things about "A Time of War" was having skills in "regular" and "complex" modes.

    Regular skills are pretty costly, cover a very broad spectrum and have their limits, but at least count a bit towards executing a Complex skill and you get a cost reduction when you "park" a Complex skill "on top". Complex skills are pretty narrow, but cheaper to acquire and also count a bit when trying to execute a Regular skill.

    So Regular skills like Drive, Medicine or Gunnery are your typical broad spectrum skills, but will only count as 1/2 their skill ranks when trying for something that is tied to a Complex skill, like Medicine/Neurosurgery or Gunnery/Arrow IV, while at the same time, someone with Medicine/Neurosurgery Complex Skill only only counts as 1/2 ranks when doing basic Medicine.

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