OOTS #1111 - The Discussion Thread

[runeghost]

To be fair, having a name is not enough to ensure a minor NPC's survival. Remember the fate of poor Solt Lorkyurg?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html

If only Belkar had known his name!

[The_Weirdo]

Quite the contrary, the Law is what protects your individual rights (in a Lawful Good system). The law designates the boundaries that can't be crossed, the rules of the game for governors and populace alike. The Law (with vigorous watchdogs on those making the laws) is what guarantees freedom. Without it, you have the Hobbesian war of all against all and the rule of the strongest.

(Unless, that is, you're lucky enough to have an anarchy made up of principled people dedicated to liberty for all and non-interference with one another. But that's an ideal position which I don't expect to encounter in the world.)

Yes. You're describing a Lawful Good system. A Lawful Neutral one will sacrifice individuals "for the good of all", a Lawful Evil one, for the good of "the State" (in practice, the rulers).

And, afterwards, you described a Chaotic Good one. A Chaotic Neutral one will rely on no one wanting to piss off too many strong people and a Chaotic Evil one will be the Hobbesian nightmare.

And both Good ones have pretty much the same likelihood of happening, sadly.

[Reboot]

I have to wonder at what level the quick-vamp spell is cast, because there are far too many spawns. The process takes 1-4 days, normally, so the first spawn without benefit of that spell would be waking tonight. I can't imagine that Durkon can cast more than ten spells of even the lowest level, and quick-vamping would appear to me to be a higher level spell. Assuming all of his minions were highlevel clerics when he teleported, I'm guessing 180 HD, at an average of 6HD each is 30 minions, requiring 30 quick-vamp spells to create. That's every available spell slot of the group of that level. Add in some quickened and other meta-magic spell slots, and that's at least doable, but it would likely exhaust those spell level slots.

Were I DM in this situation, I'd say such a spell would have to be at least as powerful as Create Undead, so none of the vampires have any level 6 or possibly level 7 slots left. However, Rich is DM here, and he may have other ideas on the issue.

I think it's entirely clear that it cannot possibly be a one-spell-per-vamp situation for sheer number of spells, yes. It's probably a certain number of HD, which can't be less than Durkon's levels (15) and is probably higher. And a bunch of the spawn could have been low-level commoners and so not eat many of the spell's HD bank.

The other thing to consider is that it's not Create Vampire, it's accelerate vampirisation. The requirements would involve one or more already-proto-vamps, blood-drained but not yet risen, which makes it significantly less powerful than sprlls which create undead from scratch....

I've been opposed to the idea that Domination could affect the vote, because a vote under duress is invalid. Vamping the council similarly wouldn't work because the council would never vote, and what a dozen vampires decide cannot be binding on dwarves in any circumstances.

Depends exactly how Lawful Stupid the demigod is. He's already halfway there by demanding the Council make the decision, when it's so obvious what any sane dwarf would say. He could easily take anything they say as gospel, however swirly their eyes are, until proven otherwise by a Board of Inquiry in three months or so...

[SlashDash]

It could?


How would that spell help against Xykon? At all, much less a seventh-level spell slot and quickened-spell-for-the-round worth?

oops mixed it up with Sunburst. And that one is level 8.

[SlashDash]

They are too sure of themselves true, but that was a qquick and confused battle and they know Durkula has not taken the time to get each of his minions to give him a detailed account of what happened (else they would have scryed right in themiddle of that).

Again, this doesn't add up.

The order said that at least 4 vamps escaped from their battle. Any of these 4 would tell Durkon that 2 clerics have join up. The order should not even question Durkon's knowledge of this.

The only way that would make sense is if the order saw Durkon ignoring the warning during the scrying, but it happened afterwards since we see the sending ending in the first panel.

Plus literary conventions and dramatic revealand all that I guess. It's still weird and overconfident but no one's perfect.

Obviously I'm not letting something as trivial ruin a brilliant story.
Just slightly shame since it could have been resolved if they had seen Durkon say this in the scrying and it wouldn't change much.

Thrall Durkon had the autonomy of a 4 year old. Gontor* is trusted with carrying out critical missions. He also gleefully blatantly disobeyed a direct order because "loopholes! Haha!".

I'm not sure there's much of a difference. Exarch yelling at a door that doesn't open that it's going to be a wall seems like a childish 4 year old rant to me.

Malack may have simply held Durkon on a tighter leash.

I think it's safe to say that the creeders are all free-willed and that Fangstone was too. I think the others are as well but that is less sure. After all it mmakes sense to expect vampire clerics to follow the orders of a goddess but the meatshields are a bit more of a gamble.

Ah, but that assumes that they are all working for the same Goddess.
I thought Hel only get the dwarves, doesn't she? I mean Malack made Durkon and he is not serving Nergul.

Not all the spawns seem to be dwarves. Do other undead non-dwarves still worship Hel?

[Kish]

Hel is the death goddess of the Northern pantheon. Presumably, every Northerner vampire is a dark spirit that was birthed in her halls. Whether that means she gets to custom-design them to be loyal to her...there's some disagreement on that point; I take the position that a vampire spirit is a funhouse mirror version of the original mortal soul, no more guaranteed loyal to its pantheon's death god than Roy is a particularly pious worshiper of Odin, and Greg is obsessively loyal to Hel as a reflection of Durkon's loyalty to Thor--but any vampire he doesn't keep as a thrall may have a different agenda.

[Anarion]

I appreciate that Greg doesn’t like wearing armor the way Durkon did. This strip gives him some more interesting mannerisms and stances that are very unlike Durkon’s.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I have to wonder at what level the quick-vamp spell is cast, because there are far too many spawns.

The numbers got crunched in the discussion thread for the ambush reveal strip. The conclusion was that it was likely a 3rd level spell, of which Durkula and the Creeders would have plenty.

[Breccia]

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why specific, direct descriptions are important. "Blonde, cleric, heavy armor" literally describes two-sixths of the D&D group I'm running. "Not carrying a holy symbol o' Thor" six-sixths, "Pigtails" one-sixth, "horned helmet" one-sixth, "weapon covered in spikes" one-sixth, "carrying the cutest baby in fiction" zero-sixths. And a lot of that doesn't even overlap, either.

Lucyfer?

I love you.

Sparkles?

Aaaaaaaaaaand the feeling passes.

I nominate "Gunainm" for the Nameless One.

[SlashDash]

Hel is the death goddess of the Northern pantheon. Presumably, every Northerner vampire is a dark spirit that was birthed in her halls. Whether that means she gets to custom-design them to be loyal to her...there's some disagreement on that point; I take the position that a vampire spirit is a funhouse mirror version of the original mortal soul, no more guaranteed loyal to its pantheon's death god than Roy is a particularly pious worshiper of Odin, and Greg is obsessively loyal to Hel as a reflection of Durkon's loyalty to Thor--but any vampire he doesn't keep as a thrall may have a different agenda.

#946, Hel says:

"Nergal's snake may have sired you, but the dwarves fall under my purview. Your dark spirit was birthed in my hall."

It mentions dwarves specifically, not the north.
Are dwarven only a northern race?

[Keltest]

#946, Hel says:

"Nergal's snake may have sired you, but the dwarves fall under my purview. Your dark spirit was birthed in my hall."

It mentions dwarves specifically, not the north.
Are dwarven only a northern race?

I don't know if theyre completely exclusive, but afaik, there aren't any dwarven lands in the south or west.

[Kish]

Well, there didn't seem to be any who weren't Northern-god-worshiping immigrants in Azure City, or in the western region they'd just left.

[johnbragg]

Yeah, I think it's about her not being an important enough character to have a name. If it was a joke about vampiric identiy, perhaps Durkon wouldn't be calling the other vampire "Exarch" in the same strip.

But Exarch is a title. I'm not sure Greg has ever been addressed in comic by a name. "High Priest of Hel" is a title, and one that was (at least nominally) handed over to one of the other vampires at the Godsmoot. Durkon is the name of the host body.

The junior vampire DOES NOT have a name. Most vampires don't. Her host has/had a name. But that's someone else's name, isn't it?

[Fyraltari]

Again, this doesn't add up.

The order said that at least 4 vamps escaped from their battle. Any of these 4 would tell Durkon that 2 clerics have join up. The order should not even question Durkon's knowledge of this.

Nitpick only three surviving vampires faced Hylgia (look closely at panels 10-12). Your points still stand but the Order comes out on top by virtue of two wrongs make a right (I guess).

Obviously I'm not letting something as trivial ruin a brilliant story.
Just slightly shame since it could have been resolved if they had seen Durkon say this in the scrying and it wouldn't change much.

I meant they know he can't know about Hylgia bfore meeting her face to face because narrativium.

I'm not sure there's much of a difference. Exarch yelling at a door that doesn't open that it's going to be a wall seems like a childish 4 year old rant to me.

Malack may have simply held Durkon on a tighter leash.

Spoiler

Show

Seriously though one outburst as a gag at the end of a strip does not make one childish. Especially not in this comics. And Dwarves are nuts (exhibit A).

Ah, but that assumes that they are all working for the same Goddess.
I thought Hel only get the dwarves, doesn't she? I mean Malack made Durkon and he is not serving Nergul.

Not all the spawns seem to be dwarves. Do other undead non-dwarves still worship Hel?

#946, Hel says:

"Nergal's snake may have sired you, but the dwarves fall under my purview. Your dark spirit was birthed in my hall."

It mentions dwarves specifically, not the north.
Are dwarven only a northern race?

Her high priestess is not a Dwarf at all.
In fact it seems they only discriminate against half-elementals.

Hel is able to put that spirit into Durkon's body because of the physical vampirization process that Malack enacts on Durkon's corpse, which opens a door to Negative Energy and traps Durkon's spirit inside it. Which would also be true of any other vampire created from a person who fell under the Northern Pantheon's domain [...]

She got involved because she is [...] the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires.

But Exarch is a title. I'm not sure Greg has ever been addressed in comic by a name. "High Priest of Hel" is a title, and one that was (at least nominally) handed over to one of the other vampires at the Godsmoot. Durkon is the name of the host body.

The junior vampire DOES NOT have a name. Most vampires don't. Her host has/had a name. But that's someone else's name, isn't it?

The vampire called himself Durkon after he dropped the accent and when formally adressing an assembly on behalf of his immortal mistress.

[SilverCacaobean]

The vampire called himself Durkon after he dropped the accent and when formally adressing an assembly on behalf of his immortal mistress.

I'm not sure this means much. At that point, he was still messing with Roy and anyway, he should be in no hurry to announce to anyone that he is a separate entity. When he picks a name, it should look like he changed his name because he's a vampire now to the outside observer, as opposed to finally picking a name. Looking back, it seems Rich has gone out of his way to keep them all nameless when they are talking to each other and they're at their most honest. Unless I missed something.

[factotum]

Well, there didn't seem to be any who weren't Northern-god-worshiping immigrants in Azure City, or in the western region they'd just left.

The excuse for exiling Durkon was that he was supposed to be gathering information on human lands. That wouldn't have flown as an excuse if there were already loads of dwarves hanging around down there. They seem, as a whole, to be a very insular people, with only outliers like Hilgya leaving society to travel elsewhere.

[8BitNinja]

If she doesn't have a name, then do the protagonists have any moral boundaries or dilemmas if they kill her?

[St Fan]

If she doesn't have a name, then do the protagonists have any moral boundaries or dilemmas if they kill her?

They can't kill her. She's already dead.

They can destroy her. Destroying a vampire doesn't involve any moral boundaries or dilemmas (except maybe along the line of "despoiling a corpse", and even then it's a stretch compared to the immediate, urgent threat a vampire represent).

Having or not having a name is utterly irrelevant to the question.

Destroying a vampire is always a moral act, even if you have no intent of resurrection afterward, since it also free its soul to reach the afterlife. It's pretty much the most evil-free act you can imagine. And yes, even with a (hypothetical) good-aligned vampire. I wouldn't give any flak even yo an exalted character for doing so.

[PopeLinus1]

They can't kill her. She's already dead.

“I’m not dead!”

“What?”

“Nothing! Here's your ninepence....”

[BrutalZandax]

I like the name Sandy.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Oh no! That poor vampire spawn is just a walking dust pile doomed to soon die in obscurity without a name!

Hel! Please give your damned child a name!

Lucyfer? Helgya? Sparkles? Anything!

Mister Stabby's Victim? The First To Die To "Last Breath Ever", Belkar's Newest Dagger That He Shall Draw From Its Sheath Very Soon (I know it is a long name, but accuracy and detail is important so she can be remembered later). Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator's Midday Snack?

To be fair, having a name is not enough to ensure a minor NPC's survival. Remember the fate of poor Solt Lorkyurg?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html

To be fair, he was an lying, evil monster with insidious motives that had to die before he jeopardized the Order's mission.

[Shining Wrath]

Hah, Durkula's anti-humility is biting (heh) him in the butt now! Though it's interesting seeing how Durkula behaves a lot like Roy, albeit more of a jerk. Roy being close to getting denied the Good afterlife seems to have been a reasonable possibility continues to make sense.

#TeamSandy

Roy's problem with getting into Celestia was Law, not Good.

Since I'm rooting for the OotS, put me into #TeamtheVampiresShouldAllDieWithoutNames

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Roy's problem with getting into Celestia was Law, not Good.

Technically, his command of Evil Doers (specifically, of one Belkar Bitterleaf) was also remarked upon as a black mark on his record, one he was given a pass under the clause of "attempting to redeem", despite both he and the Deva knowing full well that's not what Roy was trying to do.

So I'd say his willingness to make use of bad people as part of his good personal pursuits was as deleterious to his chances as his use of chaotic methods to achieve lawful ends.

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

Technically, his command of Evil Doers (specifically, of one Belkar Bitterleaf) was also remarked upon as a black mark on his record, one he was given a pass under the clause of "attempting to redeem", despite both he and the Deva knowing full well that's not what Roy was trying to do.

So I'd say his willingness to make use of bad people as part of his good personal pursuits was as deleterious to his chances as his use of chaotic methods to achieve lawful ends.

Grey Wolf

I refer you to panel #10 in my link: "I don't think there's any doubt that you're a Good man". Belkar was a detail to be cleared up, not a major obstacle. And the Deva showed that Heaven had actually compiled data demonstrating that Belkar's total output of evil in kilonazis had dropped significantly due to Roy, which means Roy had prevented evil.

I shall add I am amused by measuring evil in kilonazis, and even more amused by the theoretical offspring of Sauron and Cruella DeVille.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I refer you to panel #10 in my link: "I don't think there's any doubt that you're a Good man". Belkar was a detail to be cleared up, not a major obstacle.

I refer you to my first link.

Nevertheless, I take the Deva's point to be that despite Roy being a Good man, he employed methods to promote goodness that were not met with approval. Yes, the data supported the Deva's inaccurate justification for letting it slide, which is why she used said inaccurate justification, but nevertheless, the difference between the charges against his Lawfulness (using chaotic means to achieve Lawful ends, despite him being Lawful) is not significantly different from the charges against his Goodness (using an Evil soldier to achieve Good ends).

In fact, going back to your original thesis, it is quite clear that the worst black mark in his permanent record is abandoning Elan to his fate, which she considers bad enough that, had something happened to Elan before Roy came to his senses, would have placed Roy in the TN bin, suggesting that it was a moral failing in both the axes.

And the Deva showed that Heaven had actually compiled data demonstrating that Belkar's total output of evil in kilonazis had dropped significantly due to Roy, which means Roy had prevented evil

Preventing evil is not the same as attempting to redeem evil. Bashing Xykon and his phylactery to little bits is preventing Evil, but no-one would pretend it would in any way change Xykon's outlook on anything. Equally, reducing Belkar's bodycount in general and attempting to have most of that bodycount be Good-approved targets is also not going to change Belkar's mind on what to do with people who look like at some point in the future may be in his way. If Belkar's alignment is shifting at all, it is due to his epiphany while under the mark of justice activation, not because of what Roy has done.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I always assumed she put it down as "redeeming an evildoer" to make the paperwork easier, not because she specifically thought it was the most accurate way to describe what Roy was doing. You start putting down special circumstances outside the norm, they start making you do extra work. Lawful Good or not, nobody wants to do paperwork if they can help it.

[Reddish Mage]

I always assumed she put it down as "redeeming an evildoer" to make the paperwork easier, not because she specifically thought it was the most accurate way to describe what Roy was doing. You start putting down special circumstances outside the norm, they start making you do extra work. Lawful Good or not, nobody wants to do paperwork if they can help it.

That’s the obvious implication, although you might think otherwise about a paper pusher that is a being of pure law and good.

I also didn’t suspect she would be able to kick ass but did you read Snips Snails and Dragon Tails?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I always assumed she put it down as "redeeming an evildoer" to make the paperwork easier, not because she specifically thought it was the most accurate way to describe what Roy was doing. You start putting down special circumstances outside the norm, they start making you do extra work. Lawful Good or not, nobody wants to do paperwork if they can help it.

Oh, I believe it is certainly the case that she did that because "redeeming an evil doer" is a checkbox in the form, whilst "preventing evil by redirecting the bastard towards other evil targets" is not, and she couldn't be bothered to type all that in in the "other (elaborate)" blank spot (which is, like, 50 characters long total and only lets you see like 10 at a time, making it a pain to fill in and grrr).

But as Reddish Mage points out, while it kinda works as an explanation for you and I when dealing with, IDK, online tax forms, it feels a bit off for a Being of Good and Law who does Everything by the Book (and said Book is 100 feet tall and alight with holy fire).

Grey Wolf

[Zonkerbl]

Is there any evidence that Durkon's messing with Durkula's head is having any effect at all?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is there any evidence that Durkon's messing with Durkula's head is having any effect at all?

Yes. But I'm guessing that effect is not what you had in mind, so you may need to clarify what kind of effect you meant.

GW