Best Spells for Lore Bard to Take at 6th level

[johnbragg]

The party is a bard, ranger, rogue, wizard, cleric and fighter.

What are the best options

Is there something to boost her armor class? (Currently studded leather)

She uses a lot of hypnotic pattern, crown of madness and other Wisdom saves, to get one of the enemies out of combat. She's looking at elemental weapon, so that the party has a magic weapon when they're fighting enemies that are immune to magic. (They currently don't have any magic weapons, so their fight against the weretigers was bad.

[Matrix_Walker]

I'm a big fan of Counterspell and Find Steed myself.

[Zene]

Counterspell. Lore bard is among the two best counterspellers/dispellers in the game (the other being Abjurer). Don’t let that go to waste.

So many incredible choices that it’s hard to narrow down what’s best. Elemental weapon is definitely a solid choice. Pass Without Trace is outstanding. Healing spirit gives you the best out-of-combat healing in the game (and good in-combat healing too). Spiritual Weapon gives you something to do with your bonus action while you’re waiting for Animate Objects to come online. Animate Dead gives you concentration-free summons. Toll the Dead or Eldritch Blast upgrades your cantrip damage output significantly. Haste is the best buff in the game for at least one of your party members (probably several).

[Snivlem]

For my own bard i am considering:
Conjure animals
Fireball
Counterspell
Find steed
Summon familiar
Pass without trace (you already have a ranger, so you can probably ignore this)


For AC there is shield, but you already have cutting worlds which kinda does the same thing with your reaction. Mage armor will increase your ac by 1, but i wouldnt recomend that either.

[johnbragg]

The cleric is a Light cleric, so fireball is covered.

The wizard also has fireball (and has the feat that would Selective Channeling in Pathfinder.)

She was already thinking Counterspell, or Elemental Weapon. Correction--AND Elemental Weapon. (She's got two spots open.)

She wanted the input of the forum, since I'd be wasting time here anyway.

[JakOfAllTirades]

My gaming group are all big fans of Leomund's Tiny Hut. It's a ritual so it can be cast without using a spell slot, and we always have a safe place to take long rests. I'll probably take L.T.H when my Bard reaches 6th level, along with Counterspell; reading this thread sold me on that one. I'd love to take Fireball, but unless an Invocation specialist casts it, no... just, no.

[Drackolus]

Elemental weapon can only be cast on a weapon you're wielding, so unless she has a great dex and booming blade/greenflame blade, it's wasted on a lore bard.
Aura of Vitality is a very efficient spell. You're talking an average of 70 hp for a 3rd level slot (and, if you coordinate with your cleric, you can squeeze another 50 out of a beacon of hope). I've also gotten a little use out of Crusader's Mantle, but I was in a heavy martial group.

[Asmotherion]

I'm a big fan of Counterspell and Find Steed myself.

I second that. I'd suggest Eldritch Blast, but it's better to take it via Warlock Dipping 2 for Agonising.

Depending on your Dex, Shadow Blade might be cool for you, together with Booming Blade, allowing you to gish a bit. If your Dex is not a good score of your character, don't go that way though.

[holywhippet]

I took counterspell and conjure animals myself. Both have proven useful.

[Snivlem]

My gaming group are all big fans of Leomund's Tiny Hut. It's a ritual so it can be cast without using a spell slot, and we always have a safe place to take long rests. I'll probably take L.T.H when my Bard reaches 6th level, along with Counterspell; reading this thread sold me on that one. I'd love to take Fireball, but unless an Invocation specialist casts it, no... just, no.

Tiny hut is already on the bards list

[JakOfAllTirades]

Tiny hut is already on the bards list

Somehow I missed that one. Senility sucks!

[Specter]

To boost Armor Class, you can do thatdirectly (Shield, Shield of Faith, Mage Armor) or indirectly (Blur, Mirror Image).

[Citan]

The party is a bard, ranger, rogue, wizard, cleric and fighter.

What are the best options

Is there something to boost her armor class? (Currently studded leather)

She uses a lot of hypnotic pattern, crown of madness and other Wisdom saves, to get one of the enemies out of combat. She's looking at elemental weapon, so that the party has a magic weapon when they're fighting enemies that are immune to magic. (They currently don't have any magic weapons, so their fight against the weretigers was bad.

Hi!

I don't really understand people who throw Counterspell and such at you... XD It's obviously not the kind of spell you are looking for, plus you have a Wizard in there.
Counterspell is by far the worst spell to take here for you unless for some reason...
- Wizard didn't learn it and don't plan on learning it.
- You face lots of casters or casters using high-level spells so you expect that having the ability to use two different Counterspells will be required to maximize survival.

Otherwise? Worst choice. Simply because, sure, you get a mirific +1 with Jack of All Trades, but for the sole cost of a bonus action, Wizard can get a +4 on average and possibly a whooping +8 thanks to your Bardic Inspiration (which you can't use yourself, sadly ^^).
You want to be on the safe side? Give one die to your Wizard systematically. He will always have a use for it anyways.
Otherwise, you can just use your bonus action in the first round to give it to him.

So. Now that this has been cleared...
From what I understand you want...
- Ways to up your armor class.
- Ways to help your party get through mundane resistance?
- Both with non-concentration spells preferably?

First is the "easiest", although there are not many choices though. Main thing I think is Mirror Image: with a 16+ DEX it will provide a costly but efficient protection against non-magical attacks.
Shield may be a trap IMO depending on your past experiences: not because it's bad, it's great actually, but as a lvl 6 Bard you still don't get much fuel and you have no arcane recovery. Still, if you feel you don't need your level 1 slots for example because Cleric covers the Healing Words base good enough, then it should become your first choice.

Second is much harder. Basically, from what I remember (AFB), you just don't have a 3rd level or lower spell that would grant the whole party "resistance bypass". The closest to that would be Crusaders's Mantle, but it "just" adds bonus damage, won't prevent your weapon attacks to be halved. Or Flame Arrows, but it's ranged and only a few arrows worth.

Basically you have two choices...
1. Either you agree with your party that when you face a few resistant enemies you go the "party champion" way: in which case, Rogue or Fighter depending on their archetype and builds would probably be the best: have the Cleric cast Aid and Warding Bond, Wizard cast Haste, you cast Elemental Weapon, then all support him by trying to keep other creatures at bay while he takes them out one by one. In which case, a costly but great tactic could be to stack Longstrider on your champion and Plant Growth if enemies are melee.
This can be a very good tactic but it has drawbacks, I don't think it's necessary to detail which. ;)

2. Or you admit this is overly restrictive and you fallback on "if I can't buff damage directly, I'll help indirectly".
a) Buff damage?
Learn Hold Person (well, this one is a Bard spell IIRC): upcasting it will often be better than Hypnotic Pattern: more spread, no auto-end if damaged. Another way could be to Conjure Animals that have decent HP and prone effects to help your Ranger, Rogue, Fighter and Cleric (Spirit Guardians?) quickly dispatch them.

b) Diminish threat?
Your own Fear (Bard spell?) with Cleric's Warding Bond should prove a great tactic: your party has trouble damaging, but so does the enemy.
But wait... What's better than imposing disadvantage on several attacks? Easy: limiting the number of attacks.
Slow is one of the best debuffs you could hope for against a pack that has carefully split to avoid AOE.
Note that both are Wizard spells so you could tag team for further effect. ^^
Otherwise Sleet Storm is a good choice, because different stacking effects make it good against a variety of threats. However, it will also affects your melee pals. If Rogue/Ranger/Fighter are usually using melee, forget the idea.
Finally dont forget Bestow Curse on your basic list: great for a single-target. ;)

c) Deal damage?
Dragon Breath is a small AOE, that has the advantage of being givable to someone else.
Shadow Blade makes it close and personal if you want to keep your bonus action, otherwise you can just throw it every other turn.
OR... Just pick Call Lightning if you tend to fight outside usually, otherwise a good old Fireball or upcast Earth Tremor (if you are in melee) or Erupting Earth, depending on how good you are at avoiding friendly fire positioning, will do the trick nicely.

Elemental weapon can only be cast on a weapon you're wielding, so unless she has a great dex and booming blade/greenflame blade, it's wasted on a lore bard.
Aura of Vitality is a very efficient spell. You're talking an average of 70 hp for a 3rd level slot (and, if you coordinate with your cleric, you can squeeze another 50 out of a beacon of hope). I've also gotten a little use out of Crusader's Mantle, but I was in a heavy martial group.

You're wrong, unless the version I found on the web to double-checked was a very poor typing, which I honestly doubt for.
You are probably mixing the writing of Elemental Weapon with the one of Flame Blade which indeed ends if you let go of it. ^^

[Chugger]

Not going to say the previous poster is "wrong", but there is another side to this counterspell argument. Does your DM allow counterspell ping-ponging? I.e. your wizard casts fireball - the enemy caster casts counterspell - but then you as a bard counterspell the enemy's counterspell - and since they have no other casters it works.

Or they have a second caster and it doesn't work because that caster counterspells your counterspell.

If you expect to fight a lot of casters as you level up, counterspell will be a good pick - having two counterspellers in the group is better than one. If you face casters. There's a whole set of complex strategies to counterspelling (you have to watch using your reaction to AoO or Shield or Ab Ele - if you do that no counterspelling til your next turn - and if you can trick the enemy caster into shielding...)

As a bard, when counterspells and dispells are contested, you get to use your jack of all trades to have a better roll than you otherwise would. That could be a big deal.

I wouldn't steal a spell to make a magic weapon - I think wiz gets Magic Weapon, cleric does too if he/she is the right domain. You'll find a magic weapon - and then your stolen secret will have been wasted - you're stuck with it.

If you want to control terrain consider Hunger of Hadar or Plant Growth.

If you want to heal really well try aura of vitality and then 1-dip life cleric - that way you heal 2d6y +5 each round for 10 rounds. The 1-dip in life cleric gives you ac - but you need 13 wis to qualify (for that mc) - and you need 15 str to wear plate - but if you have dex you can wear medium armor.z

(edit psst SILVER your weapons - they work on lycanthropes like weretigers and devils and a few other critters I can't recall - 100 gp per weap or set of 10 arrows/(ammo))

[KorvinStarmast]

My gaming group are all big fans of Leomund's Tiny Hut. It's a ritual so it can be cast without using a spell slot, and we always have a safe place to take long rests. I'll probably take L.T.H when my Bard reaches 6th level, along with Counterspell; reading this thread sold me on that one.

The bard in our first campaign did just that.

[MrWesson22]

I took haste and slow.

[Citan]

Not going to say the previous poster is "wrong", but there is another side to this counterspell argument. Does your DM allow counterspell ping-ponging? I.e. your wizard casts fireball - the enemy caster casts counterspell - but then you as a bard counterspell the enemy's counterspell - and since they have no other casters it works.

Oh, you're right, I forgot about that. It makes a good case for second spellcaster with Counterspell indeed. ;)

[holywhippet]

Oh, you're right, I forgot about that. It makes a good case for second spellcaster with Counterspell indeed. ;)

You can also counterspell someone who is trying to counterspell you. But that could come in handy if an enemy caster tries to cast a spell, your party wizard tries to counterspell them, they try tp counterspell your wizard's counterspell but then your bard counterspells their counterspell allowing the wizard's counterspell to disrupt the spell.

I've mixed feelings about taking Leomund's Tiny Hut. It can be really useful under certain circumstances, but not all circumstances like if you can access to somewhere safe to rest already. More to the point, bards have limited spells known and lots of useful spells they could take instead. Given that it is hard to justify that as being the best spell to take.

[Citan]

You can also counterspell someone who is trying to counterspell you. But that could come in handy if an enemy caster tries to cast a spell, your party wizard tries to counterspell them, they try tp counterspell your wizard's counterspell but then your bard counterspells their counterspell allowing the wizard's counterspell to disrupt the spell.

I've mixed feelings about taking Leomund's Tiny Hut. It can be really useful under certain circumstances, but not all circumstances like if you can access to somewhere safe to rest already. More to the point, bards have limited spells known and lots of useful spells they could take instead. Given that it is hard to justify that as being the best spell to take.

Considering it's on Bard's own spell list, I think it's not difficult to argue it's not the best use of Magic Secrets. XD

Beyond that...
Obviously YMMV but, unless you try to use and abuse it up to a point you really piss off your DM into hard-countering you...

I think there are a fair amount of situations in which you can use it good. Provided you are ready to spend slots on other things or have another caster.

For example, if you are purchased in such a fashion that there is only one (short) way to catch up with your party. You can use it as a strong deterrent to let your party catch its breath or, use it to allow the party to escape because you count on having another way out once you leave the sphere or it ends.

For example, preparing yourself with Haste or Greater Invisibility, or maybe using a sneaking spell such as Polymorph (get burrowed), Pass Into Wall (not really the one I thought of in fact but should work too) or even something as simple as Dimension Door. You could even use the time to prepare some Glyphs traps for those foolish enough to purchase you if you leave in a visible fashion.

You could also employ the same kind of tactics to draw attention and lure some enemy troops from a place your party wants to sneak in. ;)

That's among the things that make it especially powerful in the hands of a tricky Druid (Ritual Caster).

Depending on how your DM sees interactions with it, you could even go as far as casting Rope Trick just above the ground (rope *up to* 60 feets, so 5 feet is valid): I never managed to know whether the "invisible entrance" that also served as window gave a two-way visibility, or only one-way... Nor if creature "crossing" the space would do it without problem since it's written as "extradimensional".
In the most favorable interpretation, you could laugh away while enemies all around you wonder where the hell you have been gone to... (Well, if there is any caster with Dispel Magic Around, you will be certainly not be the one laughing, but that's another matter ^^).

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I'm going to throw out Hail Of Thorns if you like shooting arrows.

Hellish Rebuke is a fun one also and a reaction.

[Crgaston]

Don’t know if these have been mentioned, but Spiritual Weapon would be more often useful than Enchanted Weapon, plus it doesn’t take Concentration. Also, Spike Growth is a fantastic spell for a Bard, even more so if your DM let’s it synergise with Dissonant Whispers.

[BobZan]

Armor of Agathys!

[Gardakan]

Certainly pick cantrips. You don't get much of them.

[XmonkTad]

I'm going to throw out Hail Of Thorns if you like shooting arrows.

I'm a big fan of Counterspell and Find Steed myself.

Going for the gems on the ranger/paladin list are my favorite uses of magical secrets. Aura of vitality, find steed, hail of thorns, and lightning arrow are some of the highlights. Find steed is also a lot of fun.

That being said, my favorite bard combo enabled by MS is spirit guardians + plant growth. Puts pretty much every enemy down to a 5ft movespeed unless they can fly or dash. Note that plant growth is already on your list, so it's ok to pick it up as a regular spell-known.

I don't recommend cantrips, unless you NEED something build enabling like shileighle (sp?) Or something.

[Spiritchaser]

If you’re going to end up at high level, you really have to seriously consider counterspell, wizard in the party or no.

Abjurer’s are all very well, and Jack of all trades is great while you get to high level...

But nothing beats a bard with glibness ( a warlock with glibness can match it for a while, but ultimately cannot marshal as many spell slots)

You can shut down the BBEG caster hard every time with no chance to fail.

Now; that BBEG caster, likely being quite clever will probably come up with a work around, and will very likely counter the counterspell, etc. But you still wield the ultimate magical ban hammer

[Citan]

If you’re going to end up at high level, you really have to seriously consider counterspell, wizard in the party or no.

Abjurer’s are all very well, and Jack of all trades is great while you get to high level...

But nothing beats a bard with glibness ( a warlock with glibness can match it for a while, but ultimately cannot marshal as many spell slots)

You can shut down the BBEG caster hard every time with no chance to fail.

Now; that BBEG caster, likely being quite clever will probably come up with a work around, and will very likely counter the counterspell, etc. But you still wield the ultimate magical ban hammer

You are very right, but as you say, it's high-level. Glibness is an 8th level spell, meaning level 15: you'll have 2 more chances to get Counterspell until you get there.

And while we are on that topic, honestly, considering Lore Bard 14 gets Peerless Skill already, unless you are in an "enemy-magic" heavy campaign, Glibness could be spared.

Until that level, Wizard with Bardic Inspiration will always be better, so it's just a matter of...
- How much can I expect enemy Counterspells?
- How often is party threatened by magic?

(By the way, I think this discussion is interesting but as far as OP goes, the poster said he had made his choice already ^^).

[johnbragg]

This is actually the wife posting - too lazy to make my own account.

I am still leaning counterspell, because the DM likes to give us more than one spellcaster at a time, and the wizard only gets one reaction. Even without pingponging, this is a challenge. I hadn't mined the ranger list too much, so I will look at that one more. Our ranger is often a bit (lot) tipsy as his wife drives and he lets loose, so maybe it's not a bad idea to back up some of his better abilities! :D

We actually have a ways to go, probably at least one more very full session, so I have time to mull, plus with a party this size, my initiative takes a long time to roll around again and I confess I start reading spell descriptions for fun. :)

Plus, I totally missed that Leomund's was a ritual somehow, so there's that available! I no longer have to save a slot in case we all need to rest simultaneously without a watch!

[MrWesson22]

Aura of vitality and find steed are both weak choices now with healing spirit and find greater steed in XGtE.