Overwatch: Thread of the Game

[The_Jackal]

I'll occasionally jump on and knock out a quick play game, if I feel like it, but I can't imagine devoting the effort to play regularly and try and climb their sisyphean ladder.

[Rynjin]

I checked out over 8 months ago and only play FFA with friends once in a blue moon these days, and have no intention of really coming back. Blizzard has really managed to bork every single game they're currently supporting actively, and it's frustrating.

At least Rainbow Six Siege will never betray me, probably.

...My god, Ubisoft is better than Blizzard in this day and age. What has science wrought?

[Winthur]

Blizzard has really managed to bork every single game they're currently supporting actively, and it's frustrating

Well, not really true, the Starcraft franchise had its best year last year. Otherwise, yeah, everyone else got screwed.

I don't play OW much anymore because of the aforementioned issues with it being unplayable on my rig after updates.

[The_Jackal]

I checked out over 8 months ago and only play FFA with friends once in a blue moon these days, and have no intention of really coming back. Blizzard has really managed to bork every single game they're currently supporting actively, and it's frustrating.

At least Rainbow Six Siege will never betray me, probably.

...My god, Ubisoft is better than Blizzard in this day and age. What has science wrought?

In all honesty, I don't think the Overwatch team has been screwing up through malice or neglect, just the inevitable clash between their design goals and their profit strategy. They want the game to be this super-competitive e-Sport, and at the same time they want it to be this super-accessible game anyone can play, without investing a huge amount of work & effort into mastering the game. Add in a little power creep and some questionable Hero additions, and you've got the current dumpster fire that the community is currently bemoaning.

Also, I don't know if Overwatch can ever match the longevity of older Blizzard titles when there's so little to it. It's got a tiny map pool, few game modes, and little progression to keep the player engaged. Why should Overwatch have a longer lifespan than say, an above average Call of Duty release?

Now sure, HOTS got dumped on, but it was never a success, and yes, WoW is getting mothballed, but let's get serious, it's a 14 year old game. The only real screwup has been the whole Diablo Immortal fiasco, which does betray the Blizzard leadership's complete lack of understanding of their own market, or at least their lack of concern for losing older customers.

[Resileaf]

Now sure, HOTS got dumped on, but it was never a success, and yes, WoW is getting mothballed, but let's get serious, it's a 14 year old game. The only real screwup has been the whole Diablo Immortal fiasco, which does betray the Blizzard leadership's complete lack of understanding of their own market, or at least their lack of concern for losing older customers.

As some friends and I have speculated, they don't particularly care about losing older customers because the China mobile market is enormous. Every game Blizz makes could flop, but as long as China fuels their new mobile industry, they'll still be printing money.

[The_Jackal]

As some friends and I have speculated, they don't particularly care about losing older customers because the China mobile market is enormous. Every game Blizz makes could flop, but as long as China fuels their new mobile industry, they'll still be printing money.

Except all they're really doing in that market is partnering/licensing with NetEase. Turning Blizzard from a powerhouse game developer into a glorified license farm seems like a bad, bad plan.

[Resileaf]

Except all they're really doing in that market is partnering/licensing with NetEase. Turning Blizzard from a powerhouse game developer into a glorified license farm seems like a bad, bad plan.

No good decision has ever come from the finance division of a corporation.

[The_Jackal]

No good decision has ever come from the finance division of a corporation.

This video has been making the rounds, and I think it explains the core problem pretty well:

[Sariel Vailo]

Sorry to hear that, but it seems to me that Overwatch couldn't be more perfectly designed to engender feelings of impotent rage, as you're completely dependent on uncaring strangers to provide a good quality play experience. Classic Blizzard, they've polished every part of their game except the parts which require understanding of player psychology.

Thanks jackal,this makes me feel a small bit better.

[Psyren]

While the DI announcement was pretty tone-deaf, as long as they eventually go on to make D4 (which I think they will given the smash success D3 has been having on Switch) then I won't mind. I might even play the mobile version, my phone is beefy enough to run it.

If they don't however, well, I'll have to hold out for Lost Ark or similar to scratch my ARPG itch.

[The_Jackal]

While the DI announcement was pretty tone-deaf, as long as they eventually go on to make D4 (which I think they will given the smash success D3 has been having on Switch) then I won't mind. I might even play the mobile version, my phone is beefy enough to run it.

If they don't however, well, I'll have to hold out for Lost Ark or similar to scratch my ARPG itch.

I'm kind of surprised that D3 did well on the Switch, to be honest. I guess it's a testament to the mediocrity of the gaming landscape that a port for a 6 year old ARPG wound up being a big seller. I'm not saying that DIII isn't good, in a world suffused with wallet-grabby horse manure, DIII is looking pretty solid, I'm just shocked there's as big of a market for the Switch.

[Psyren]

I'm kind of surprised that D3 did well on the Switch, to be honest. I guess it's a testament to the mediocrity of the gaming landscape that a port for a 6 year old ARPG wound up being a big seller. I'm not saying that DIII isn't good, in a world suffused with wallet-grabby horse manure, DIII is looking pretty solid, I'm just shocked there's as big of a market for the Switch.

And that's the point - Blizzard's mandate is to understand what will sell and make that, regardless of how 'surprising' it might be to legacy gamers like you (and me).

Getting back on topic, Soldier 76 has the gay (or bi).

[Winthur]

Getting back on topic, Soldier 76 has the gay (or bi).

Confirmed to identify as gay.
Approximately 22% of my SFM Mercy folder is now non-canon. :'(

[Spore]

Confirmed to identify as gay.
Approximately 22% of my SFM Mercy folder is now non-canon. :'(

If the actual game had somewhat of a story behind it rather than snippets, I would actually care. This way, it just feels like pandering to me. And as needless as single player campaigns are for most online shooters, I would welcome one heartily for Overwatch.

My cynical self is now clamoring that they would butcher yet another game world for the sake of ingame purchases. My realist self is questioning the existence of a hamster hero already.

When do they start and assign sexual orientations to the Omnic and animal heroes? It is about time!

[chainer1216]

New PTR too by the way. The max damage reduced by armor is now 3 instead of 5, brigs ult armor now only lasts 30sec, reaper heals 50% of his damage dealt now and...theres something else but im forgetting what.

[The_Jackal]

This way, it just feels like pandering to me.

Yeah, that's because it is pandering, but pandering is how brands say hello now.

[gomipile]

New PTR too by the way. The max damage reduced by armor is now 3 instead of 5, brigs ult armor now only lasts 30sec, reaper heals 50% of his damage dealt now and...theres something else but im forgetting what.

The cooldown for D.Va's Defense Matrix is doubled from 1 to 2 seconds.

I'm most worried about the armor change from 5 to 3 damage reduction. Tanks already feel squishier than most 200 HP heroes, and this will make armored tanks even squishier than they do now.

[Keltest]

The cooldown for D.Va's Defense Matrix is doubled from 1 to 2 seconds.

I'm most worried about the armor change from 5 to 3 damage reduction. Tanks already feel squishier than most 200 HP heroes, and this will make armored tanks even squishier than they do now.

All of the tanks with armor have other means of blocking damage, mostly barriers. mostly the change affects Rally, and brig in general, making it easier to burn through the armor while the ult is active. I think the only tank that would be legitimately hurting from this change is D.va, since she has the weakest ability to prevent damage. Winston might notice too, but he's designed to kill people who are weak to armor on top of having his shield.

[The_Jackal]

The cooldown for D.Va's Defense Matrix is doubled from 1 to 2 seconds.

I'm most worried about the armor change from 5 to 3 damage reduction. Tanks already feel squishier than most 200 HP heroes, and this will make armored tanks even squishier than they do now.

The preeminence of the GOATS meta begs to differ with your assertion that tanks are squishy right now. Now I do agree that this isn't the best change, as it makes tanks even more dependent on healers to stay upright, instead of attacking the root of the GOATS problem, namely the introduction of highly durable/evasive healers with a high skill floor, ie: Moira and Brig. Nevertheless, with virtually every high profile player ganging up on the current status quo, I'm not surprised they're resorting to extreme sanctions to make changes.

Basically, the evolution of the game has been one betraying a lack of an overall vision, rather the Team 4 balance squad is careening from one problem to the next: Ana beyblade too strong, nerf the mobility boost from Nano. Now tank compositions get shredded by spam comps, buff barriers and add more barrier tanks. Now dive destroys healers making healers into hopeless pinatas, add un-diveable healers.

I think what this change is going to do is merely to shift GOATS into a plat and below composition, as higher skill players can already beat it with the right comp, but if you have bad positioning and aim, you're going to struggle to kill GOATS just like before.

[Sariel Vailo]

Thread necromancy # Baptiste new hero. Ahhh man I'm excited.

[NeoVid]

Well, damn. I thought I might learn a few things from this video series, but when I applied what I'd seen in it to my placements this season, I ended up with 9 wins, 1 loss.

Well then. I certainly I don't have the skills of a GM player, but looks like I can imitate the attitude of one.

I think I have my new mantra for Comp play: "If you want to be stuck in platinum forever, play like you can't trust your teammates."

[The_Jackal]

Color me skeptical. I was reasonably sanguine that Ashe would perhaps dislodge the chokehold that brawl comps had on the game, but I realize now that's in no danger of ever coming true. Why? This:

https://clips.twitch.tv/ApatheticVenomousShieldPraiseIt

On the one hand, Jeff is right: Everything in the game below Diamond is effectively a giant clownfiesta. On the other hand, saying that implies that there's nothing they need to do about the game as its experienced by the vast majority of players. You need a viable composition to make the game work at even its most basic level, and yet until you reach Diamond and above, your matchmaking and team compositions are so random, so utterly disorganized, you may as well be tossing a coin to determine who wins and loses. And that's the game they've designed, and yet have somehow contrived to blame the players for the failings of their design.

It's this 'only the top-tier balance counts' mindset that has pretty much convinced me that the designers have no real intention of ever fixing the gold/platinum experience, and I'm not really willing to slog through however many games I need to escape the 'pray I get enough tanks and healers to not get curbstomped' tier.

[Keltest]

Color me skeptical. I was reasonably sanguine that Ashe would perhaps dislodge the chokehold that brawl comps had on the game, but I realize now that's in no danger of ever coming true. Why? This:

https://clips.twitch.tv/ApatheticVenomousShieldPraiseIt

On the one hand, Jeff is right: Everything in the game below Diamond is effectively a giant clownfiesta. On the other hand, saying that implies that there's nothing they need to do about the game as its experienced by the vast majority of players. You need a viable composition to make the game work at even its most basic level, and yet until you reach Diamond and above, your matchmaking and team compositions are so random, so utterly disorganized, you may as well be tossing a coin to determine who wins and loses. And that's the game they've designed, and yet have somehow contrived to blame the players for the failings of their design.

It's this 'only the top-tier balance counts' mindset that has pretty much convinced me that the designers have no real intention of ever fixing the gold/platinum experience, and I'm not really willing to slog through however many games I need to escape the 'pray I get enough tanks and healers to not get curbstomped' tier.

I mean, in my experience in the below-diamond circuit, trying to get people to recognize that you even need a composition is like trying to build a functional house out of leaves and sticks. It can be done, more or less, but the outcome is not worth the effort. To that end, I think yes, the players are the problem. Suck it up and recognize that snap picking Hanzo and Widowmaker will lose you the game no matter how much you want to play them.

Almost all of my losses feel like theyre the result of people playing like theyre in deathmatch, and very frequently when I luck into a team of people who all like to play the important roles without fuss, its a total curbstomp because suddenly it becomes a check on how well we can play the game rather than how well we can herd these cats.

[Rynjin]

Color me skeptical. I was reasonably sanguine that Ashe would perhaps dislodge the chokehold that brawl comps had on the game, but I realize now that's in no danger of ever coming true. Why? This:

https://clips.twitch.tv/ApatheticVenomousShieldPraiseIt

On the one hand, Jeff is right: Everything in the game below Diamond is effectively a giant clownfiesta. On the other hand, saying that implies that there's nothing they need to do about the game as its experienced by the vast majority of players. You need a viable composition to make the game work at even its most basic level, and yet until you reach Diamond and above, your matchmaking and team compositions are so random, so utterly disorganized, you may as well be tossing a coin to determine who wins and loses. And that's the game they've designed, and yet have somehow contrived to blame the players for the failings of their design.

It's this 'only the top-tier balance counts' mindset that has pretty much convinced me that the designers have no real intention of ever fixing the gold/platinum experience, and I'm not really willing to slog through however many games I need to escape the 'pray I get enough tanks and healers to not get curbstomped' tier.

It's a consistent problem with game developers actively updating a game; they tend to either hyper-focus on the LCD players or tippy-toppest tier of player and don't really look and analyze what the majority of their player base plays like and why before making changes. They narrow focus down to a single player bracket and use that as their balance point for the whole game, which is always going to push SOMEONE away.

Balancing only for the most skilled players is almost always a mistake, because those people cannot bring in the revenue needed to sustain your game long term, that's just a hard fact. There's not enough of them in existence. You push yourself into a situation where your comp scene needs to be the biggest possible draw (people downloading the game or spending money on merch in the hopes of "being like the pros" or whatever).

It's worked for two years to varying degrees, but the playerbase is dropping pretty steadily at this point, which points to whatever they're doing not working in a long term sense.

[The_Jackal]

I mean, in my experience in the below-diamond circuit, trying to get people to recognize that you even need a composition is like trying to build a functional house out of leaves and sticks. It can be done, more or less, but the outcome is not worth the effort. To that end, I think yes, the players are the problem. Suck it up and recognize that snap picking Hanzo and Widowmaker will lose you the game no matter how much you want to play them.

You say that as if I haven't been playing exclusively healers in competitive, for the mere lack of other people stepping up.

Almost all of my losses feel like theyre the result of people playing like theyre in deathmatch, and very frequently when I luck into a team of people who all like to play the important roles without fuss, its a total curbstomp because suddenly it becomes a check on how well we can play the game rather than how well we can herd these cats.

And I put it to you that this IS the problem with Overwatch: You can't play it without a six stack. If you don't have five friends who will hang out in your SR, you're at the tender mercies of the whatever pile of morons who end up in the lobby with you. Imagine a football league where you took all 1,696 players in the NFL, and just randomized them, and dumped them into a lobby where they needed to make a team, pick roles, and come up with a game plan in 30 seconds. That is basically what Overwatch is. It's designed to be an organized e-Sport, without actually bothering to make it a fun game that the paying public can actually play.

It's a consistent problem with game developers actively updating a game; they tend to either hyper-focus on the LCD players or tippy-toppest tier of player and don't really look and analyze what the majority of their player base plays like and why before making changes. They narrow focus down to a single player bracket and use that as their balance point for the whole game, which is always going to push SOMEONE away.

Balancing only for the most skilled players is almost always a mistake, because those people cannot bring in the revenue needed to sustain your game long term, that's just a hard fact. There's not enough of them in existence. You push yourself into a situation where your comp scene needs to be the biggest possible draw (people downloading the game or spending money on merch in the hopes of "being like the pros" or whatever).

It's worked for two years to varying degrees, but the playerbase is dropping pretty steadily at this point, which points to whatever they're doing not working in a long term sense.

Overwatch isn't quite dying yet, but it's definitely on the ropes, and as more players stop following it, and more streamers stop hyping it, it will fade into irrelevance. I think the decision of big names moving onto Apex Legend and Fortnite is a leading indicator, but I've been wrong before. All I know is I've all but stopped loading the game, because I know the same frustrating and dissatisfying experience is waiting for me as soon as my queue pops.

You're definitely right that you ignore the regular experience of the average player at your peril, however I'd argue that other games haven't been nearly so adversely affected by the e-Sports focus as Overwatch has, simply because few games have been so consciously, relentlessly team-focused as Overwatch is. Even if Brood War was incredibly focused on the top-end game, because it was a single-player-friendly title, the ladder experience wasn't the exercise in sheer hair-pulling frustration Overwatch is.

[Keltest]

You say that as if I haven't been playing exclusively healers in competitive, for the mere lack of other people stepping up.



And I put it to you that this IS the problem with Overwatch: You can't play it without a six stack. If you don't have five friends who will hang out in your SR, you're at the tender mercies of the whatever pile of morons who end up in the lobby with you. Imagine a football league where you took all 1,696 players in the NFL, and just randomized them, and dumped them into a lobby where they needed to make a team, pick roles, and come up with a game plan in 30 seconds. That is basically what Overwatch is. It's designed to be an organized e-Sport, without actually bothering to make it a fun game that the paying public can actually play.

I haven't exactly seen anybody make suggestions as to what Blizzard can or should do about this. It isn't like the matchmaker can force somebody to play a healer or a tank. The problem is at the human level: people are doing dumb things and not realizing that its these dumb things that are causing them to lose. Short of outright removing Hanzo and Widowmaker from the game, what can blizzard do to force people to realize that in a team game, teamwork matters?

[Rynjin]

It isn't like the matchmaker can force somebody to play a healer or a tank.

Sure it can, and it's really easy. Ranked matches can have character limits/necessities. If a role isn't filled, the match doesn't start until it is.

Mind, this is intensely griefable, but it's not like it can't be done. And could be tinkered with by, say, booting everyone back to queue if a consensus isn't reached in a reasonable timeframe.

Overwatch is already MOBA-like as-is, so you could change ranked to a pseudo-Draft system, or change the matchmaker to require you to declare your intended role before queuing you as well, similar to Heroes of the Storm.

Mind, Overwatch's ranked mode still seems utterly pointless to me anyway. I don't see what people get out of it that they care so much. Feels like people play ranked just to see their numbers go up rather than any desire to win or get better at the game, so the average player skill level isn't appreciably higher than in Casual.

[NeoVid]

Mind, Overwatch's ranked mode still seems utterly pointless to me anyway. I don't see what people get out of it that they care so much. Feels like people play ranked just to see their numbers go up rather than any desire to win or get better at the game, so the average player skill level isn't appreciably higher than in Casual.

I play Competitive to get the gold weapon skins. That also means I actually care about getting wins, which seems surprisingly rare in that mode.

[Keltest]

Sure it can, and it's really easy. Ranked matches can have character limits/necessities. If a role isn't filled, the match doesn't start until it is.

Mind, this is intensely griefable, but it's not like it can't be done. And could be tinkered with by, say, booting everyone back to queue if a consensus isn't reached in a reasonable timeframe.

Overwatch is already MOBA-like as-is, so you could change ranked to a pseudo-Draft system, or change the matchmaker to require you to declare your intended role before queuing you as well, similar to Heroes of the Storm.

Mind, Overwatch's ranked mode still seems utterly pointless to me anyway. I don't see what people get out of it that they care so much. Feels like people play ranked just to see their numbers go up rather than any desire to win or get better at the game, so the average player skill level isn't appreciably higher than in Casual.

Ok, and when somebody switched off that role, does the game pause until they switch back? The game wants you to dynamically change your composition to counter what the enemy is doing. Theres not really any way to both have that and force people to play with all the roles.

[Manticoran]

Ok, and when somebody switched off that role, does the game pause until they switch back? The game wants you to dynamically change your composition to counter what the enemy is doing. Theres not really any way to both have that and force people to play with all the roles.

Yeah, but you could have Support/Support/Tank/Flex/Flex/DPS or something.