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    BardGuy

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    Default Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    True Strike is generally considered a trash cantrip, as a combination of concentration, taking up an action, and explicitly not working until your next turn.

    I was reading the Eldritch Knight archetype of Fighter, and realized that its high-level ability lets you cast a spell as a bonus action when you attack. Would this allow you to attack (using Extra Attack) as your action, cast True Strike as a bonus action, and thus (assuming you don't lose Concentration) attack with the benefits of True Strike next round, & repeat? Alternatively, you could use Blade Ward if you wanted to boost defenses (and were fighting such that it would be effective) instead of boosting accuracy. Right?

    Let's assume the War Caster feat is somewhere in the build, to enable casting without using up hands.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    Are you thinking of War Magic:

    At level 7, you can use your action to cast a cantrip and make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
    You cast the cantrip (True Strike), and then make a weapon attack (not at advantage, because True Strike stinks)

    The next turn, you would cast True Strike again, which would overrule the Concentration from the first one, and reset the ability, and therefore you'd make your one attack again without advantage.

    Edit -> You could alternate the timing of the action and bonus action each round, but given this is level 7, you have extra attack. It's better to use your action to attack twice than to do this.
    Last edited by Aett_Thorn; 2018-01-29 at 04:15 PM.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    But you can also cast green flame blade or booming blade and do more damage if you hit.

    It depends on the AC of the thing you're fighting maybe, but usually more chances to hit > adv on one chance to hit.

    Now, if you're seriously tanking doing Blade Ward would turn you into a pseudo-barbarian and would be very good. If you're really in trouble you could even Dodge and Blade Ward. But the best way to not be killed is to kill the badguys first, so in most cases you want to do some damage.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    Yep, that's correct. This is one of the only times that true strike and blade ward aren't completely worthless, though the math generally favors using an attack cantrip (especially the SCAG cantrips green flame blade and booming blade).

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    True Strike is an Action to cast.
    EK's War Magic allows for a single attack as a Bonus Action after casting a cantrip.

    While you certainly COULD use True Strike every round and get 1 attack at Advantage. Provided Concentration isn't broken, that is.
    While you -could-, I'm not sure why anybody would -want- to. They could just swing their weapon twice and do more damage.

    I personally would prefer to swing twice, than use most of my turn casting a pretty much useless cantrip and getting a second d20 on a single attack.
    This divide only grows when level 11 is reached, and the 3rd attack comes online.

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    Specter's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    No. Nope. Never.
    This is fancy play syndrome. Forget about one advantage on your next turn and attack twice now, and later. With War Magic, it's an even bigger mistake, because you could be casting Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade for better damage.

    Every time you cast True Strike, a family of golden retrievers dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chugger View Post
    But you can also cast green flame blade or booming blade and do more damage if you hit.

    It depends on the AC of the thing you're fighting maybe, but usually more chances to hit > adv on one chance to hit.

    Now, if you're seriously tanking doing Blade Ward would turn you into a pseudo-barbarian and would be very good. If you're really in trouble you could even Dodge and Blade Ward. But the best way to not be killed is to kill the badguys first, so in most cases you want to do some damage.
    You can cast a spell and make an attack with War Magic, but not two spells (True Strike and a weapon cantrip).

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    Are you thinking of War Magic:



    You cast the cantrip (True Strike), and then make a weapon attack (not at advantage, because True Strike stinks)

    The next turn, you would cast True Strike again, which would overrule the Concentration from the first one, and reset the ability, and therefore you'd make your one attack again without advantage.
    This is only marginally RAW, as the rules say when you use your action to cast a cantrip you can use b.a. to make 1 weap attack. "When" doesn't necessarily lock you into an ordering of events. In other words, like with shield bashing in the shield master feat, as long as you've committed to using the cantrip you can b.a. a weap attack - but the order is not locked in. A DM could easily say you can do your weap attack as a b.a. first - b.a.'s can go first, in general at least - as long as you commit to doing a cantrip as your main action.

    That way you can get adv on the second round once you start this process and keep it going, and the next and so on as long as you do it.

    From a RAI standpoint, come on - they can't have meant True Strike to be that stupid. It's not like an EK is 'sploiting or "breaking the game" doing this. It's probably a lower DPR move than just doing green flame blade and a normal weap attack.

    Any DM ruling this way (that True Strike creates a stupid loop that cancels) - I'm walking from that table. Picking up my toys and going elsewhere. Seriously.

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    No. With True Strike and a normal attack, it is always better to attack once this round and once next, instead of attack once next round at advantage, unless you cannot attack at all on your round.

    With War Magic vs Extra Attack this is even more the case, since you the comparison is the EK attacking 4 times (at level 7-10) in two rounds, or 1 time at advantage each round as you do the War Magic rotation round after round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    You cast the cantrip (True Strike), and then make a weapon attack (not at advantage, because True Strike stinks)

    The next turn, you would cast True Strike again, which would overrule the Concentration from the first one, and reset the ability, and therefore you'd make your one attack again without advantage.
    Oops good point. And the order being cantrip then attack is confirmed by SA too. Although they do make it clear the DM house-ruling otherwise wouldn't be a big issue.

    From the SA compendium:
    Does the “when” in the Eldritch Knight’s War Magic feature mean the bonus attack comes after you cast the cantrip, or can it come before? The bonus action comes after the cantrip, since using your action to cast a cantrip is what gives you the ability to make the weapon attack as a bonus action. That said, a DM would break nothing in the system by allowing an Eldritch Knight to reverse the order of the cantrip and the weapon attack.
    http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/do...Compendium.pdf
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2018-01-29 at 04:19 PM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    Quote Originally Posted by Chugger View Post
    This is only marginally RAW, as the rules say when you use your action to cast a cantrip you can use b.a. to make 1 weap attack. "When" doesn't necessarily lock you into an ordering of events. In other words, like with shield bashing in the shield master feat, as long as you've committed to using the cantrip you can b.a. a weap attack - but the order is not locked in. A DM could easily say you can do your weap attack as a b.a. first - b.a.'s can go first, in general at least - as long as you commit to doing a cantrip as your main action.

    That way you can get adv on the second round once you start this process and keep it going, and the next and so on as long as you do it.

    From a RAI standpoint, come on - they can't have meant True Strike to be that stupid. It's not like an EK is 'sploiting or "breaking the game" doing this. It's probably a lower DPR move than just doing green flame blade and a normal weap attack.

    Any DM ruling this way (that True Strike creates a stupid loop that cancels) - I'm walking from that table. Picking up my toys and going elsewhere. Seriously.
    I edited my response because of this. Still, you have two choices:

    True Strike + BA attack = 1 attack with advantage every round, or

    Use Action and extra attack = 2 attacks with no advantage.

    The second option is vastly better, because it can lead to two hits per round instead of just one.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    I was actually thinking of Improved War Magic, the level 18 version, but had misread it as saying "when you use your action to attack, you can cast a spell as a bonus action."

    I didn't realize it was just upping 'cantrip' to 'any spell'.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    True Strike sucks, anyway - good thing - because EK/TS stinks even more if people follow SA. If SA really says that when implies a necessary ordering, they've deliberately hobbled TS - and for what? As we've all pointed out, it isn't even a great tactic. More reason to question SA - a lot of SA is dicey at best (and feels very arbitrary - and not at all "sage").
    Last edited by Chugger; 2018-01-29 at 04:24 PM.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    True strike isn't a thing in 5e. Nothing good with it.

    With Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade you'll be doing good damage.

    If you go Eldritch Knight road, pick Warcaster on 4th or 6th level and you'll be a good AC tank (Shield spell) and will have good damage via Extra Attack and later with War Magic. You'll hardly lose concentration with Constitution proficiency and Warcaster.

    Blade Ward for "I'm in trouble" rounds.

    A good reminder is that a good tank isn't the guy who can only soak damage, you have to bring some battlefield trouble or enemies will ignore you. With War Magic you'll be doing that, if they ignore you, you wreck them.

    You'll have some awesome buffs like Shield, Absorb Elements, Protection from Evil and Good, Mirror Image, Blur, Haste, Fire Shield, Stoneskin. Later on, you'll be able to even summon some Zombies, Skeletons and Tiny Servants to aid you.
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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    Quote Originally Posted by Chugger View Post
    True Strike sucks, anyway - good thing - because EK/TS stinks even more if people follow SA. If SA really says that when implies a necessary ordering, they've deliberately hobbled TS - and for what? As we've all pointed out, it isn't even a great tactic. More reason to question SA - a lot of SA is dicey at best (and feels very arbitrary - and not at all "sage").
    If you don't like the SA, you don't like it. Don't use it. Personally, it perfectly matches my understanding of the English involved, so I like it from that perspective. From terms of powerfulness, I can take it or leave it.

    The order of operations thing is far more important in regards to Cantrip/attack rotation once you reach level 10 and get Eldritch Strike. Because it's a matter of: can I undercut the saving throw of my cantrip on THIS round right before I use the cantrip after hitting a guy; or do I need to use my cantrip (first) on the guy I hit LAST round to give the disadvantage on saving throw.

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    Yeah, you get advantage each round after the second. For 1 attack. Could not suck if you were playing a Rogue (multiclass?), but Rogues already have tons of mechanics for at-will advantage when they need it.

    True Strike really got the short end of the stick in this eddition. It could not suck if it was a Bonus Action and/or didn't need to kick in the next turn, but I'm not sure if it would be a Cantrip Level if that was the case.

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    I think the big point is this:

    It is ALWAYS mechanically worse to have one attack with advantage than to just attack twice.

    In this case, you're at level 7, so you're getting two attacks. Assuming a greatsword, that's 4d6+8 a round. With advantage, if you crit, that's 4d6+4.

    Worse, if you have GFB or Booming Blade, you can be swinging for 4d6+1d8+8 instead.

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    Default Re: Eldritch Knight using True Strike each round

    Quote Originally Posted by Submortimer View Post
    I think the big point is this:

    It is ALWAYS mechanically worse to have one attack with advantage than to just attack twice.
    Yup. If you can move up to within 30ft of someone on your turn, but not in range to attack, and you don't have anything else to do with your action or concentration ... then it's worth using True Strike. Also true if you are starting within 30ft and plan to retreat around a corner and let them come to you, or something.

    But like any contrived use of the cantrip, it's so ridiculously niche that it's just not worth the cantrip spot.

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