How do you deal with hordes of enemies?

[The Random NPC]

Well, the game is dead. I was testing an unidentified wand, and despite stating that I'd point the wand away from us on the off chance it was a wand of lighting, it just so happened to bounce off of the trees perfectly to hit everyone in the party. That killed the thief and me, so he decided to start using the dead at -10 rule. The thief was still dead though. The next week, the thief decided to start a game of Pathfinder.

[thorr-kan]

At one time I thought this way... until one particular adventure our party was trying to rescue a hostage from an orc tribe in the forest. Well, the resulting major forest fire we caused (in the middle of the night) when we tried to take the orcs by surprise was much more perilous than the fully intact orc band... not to mention we had some very angry druids to deal with after that incident...

See, you missed two solutions sets here:

1. More fireballs to create a prescribed burn to serve as a fire break for the existing file.

2. Fireball the druids until they are no longer angry.

Really. It works!

(NOTE: Tongue firmly in cheek here.)

[thorr-kan]

Well, the game is dead. I was testing an unidentified wand, and despite stating that I'd point the wand away from us on the off chance it was a wand of lighting, it just so happened to bounce off of the trees perfectly to hit everyone in the party. That killed the thief and me, so he decided to start using the dead at -10 rule. The thief was still dead though. The next week, the thief decided to start a game of Pathfinder.

That just sucks on so many levels. My condolences.

[Sgt_Dubie]

Well, the game is dead. I was testing an unidentified wand, and despite stating that I'd point the wand away from us on the off chance it was a wand of lighting, it just so happened to bounce off of the trees perfectly to hit everyone in the party. That killed the thief and me, so he decided to start using the dead at -10 rule. The thief was still dead though. The next week, the thief decided to start a game of Pathfinder.

This does indeed suck and seems quite unnecessary... I mean it’s one thing to give you a good jolt to show what can happen when you mess with things you don’t understand... but killing half the party over downtime fooling around?

See, you missed two solutions sets here:

1. More fireballs to create a prescribed burn to serve as a fire break for the existing file.

2. Fireball the druids until they are no longer angry.

Really. It works!

(NOTE: Tongue firmly in cheek here.)

Hmmm.... fight fire with fire... I’m not sure that would work on the forest fire seeing how none of us had wildfire fighting as a non weapon proficiency... but it is kind of how we handled the druids when they wouldn’t listen to reason...

[Lord Torath]

Well, the game is dead. I was testing an unidentified wand, and despite stating that I'd point the wand away from us on the off chance it was a wand of lighting, it just so happened to bounce off of the trees perfectly to hit everyone in the party. That killed the thief and me, so he decided to start using the dead at -10 rule. The thief was still dead though. The next week, the thief decided to start a game of Pathfinder.

Wait, wait wait. It bounced off a tree?!? That's a pretty terrible call on the DM's part. What if it had been a Treant? Would it have bounced off that? Unless the answer is "Yes! Treants and all trees and tree-like creatures in my campaign are completely immune to Lightning", I call "Shenanigans!"

Did you specifically point it at a tree? Or did you just point it nebulously "away", and the DM decided it got you all?

[Sgt_Dubie]

Advanced D&D (2nd Edition)

Lightning Bolt
(Evocation)

Range: 40 yds. + 10 yds./level
Duration: Instantaneous
Area of Effect: Special
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 3
Saving Throw: ½

Upon casting this spell, the wizard releases a powerful stroke of electrical energy that inflicts 1d6 points of damage per level of the spellcaster (maximum damage per level of 10d6) to each creature within its area of effect. A successful saving throw vs. spell reduces this damage to half (round fractions down). The bolt begins at a range and height decided by the caster and streaks outward in a direct line from the casting wizard (for example, if a 40-foot bolt was started at 180 feet from the wizard, the far end of the bolt would reach 220 feet (180 + 40). The lightning bolt may set fire to combustibles, sunder wooden doors, splinter up to a half-foot thickness of stone, and melt metals with a low melting point (lead, gold, copper, silver, bronze). Saving throws must be rolled for objects that withstand the full force of a stroke (see the fireball spell). If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it (i.e., the saving throw fails), the bolt continues. A bolt can breach 1 inch of wood or half an inch of stone per caster level, up to a maximum of 1 foot of wood or half a foot of stone.

The lightning bolt's area of effect is chosen by the spellcaster: either a forked bolt 10 feet wide and 40 feet long or a single bolt 5 feet wide and 80 feet long. If a bolt cannot reach its full length, because of an unyielding barrier (such as a stone wall), the lightning bolt rebounds from the barrier toward its caster, ending only when it reaches its full length.

For example: An 80-foot-long stroke is begun at a range of 40 feet, but it hits a stone wall at 50 feet. The bolt travels 10 feet, hits the wall, and rebounds for 70 feet back toward its creator (who is only 50 feet from the wall, and so is caught in his own lightning bolt!).

The DM might allow reflecting bolts. When this type of lightning bolt strikes a solid surface, the bolt reflects from the surface at an angle equal to the angle of incidence (like light off a mirror). A creature crossed more than once by the bolt must roll a saving throw for every time it is crossed, but it still suffers either full damage (if one saving throw is missed) or half damage (if all saving throws are made).

The material components of the spell are a bit of fur and an amber, crystal, or glass rod. [2E PHB, Appendix 3]

As I thought.... although if the tree was exceptionally big and tough(unlikely) it should have just splintered it and passed though... even using the optional angle rule... I see it unlikely that it would bounce in such a way that it would pass through the entire party before it ran out of range... I’d stop letting this guy dm.

[hamlet]

From the perspective of a hard as stone old school DM, yeah, you were boned by a bad DM call there unless there was something really special about that tree (a steel tree or something?). A lightning bolt should have blasted the tree trunk and continued on. However, it's possible that the tree was cut down and happened to fall on you, which is something I might have actually rolled for myself with the scatter chart, but I'd still give you a save to see if you could dive out of the way on time.

Not a good call.

[The Random NPC]

I pointed the bolt at a nebulous away direction, I specifically said that was just in case it was a wand of Lighting Bolt. It bounced off of multiple trees to hit everyone in the party. We were being attacked by spiders at the time, so they all died as well. I'd have been fine if the GM had me hit with the bolt as a lesson to be more careful with unidentified items, but hitting everyone was uncalled for. Also, I plan on never letting this guy GM again.

[MeeposFire]

I pointed the bolt at a nebulous away direction, I specifically said that was just in case it was a wand of Lighting Bolt. It bounced off of multiple trees to hit everyone in the party. We were being attacked by spiders at the time, so they all died as well. I'd have been fine if the GM had me hit with the bolt as a lesson to be more careful with unidentified items, but hitting everyone was uncalled for. Also, I plan on never letting this guy GM again.

Wait bounced around and hit everybody in the party? Unless you were all in a straight line that should not have happened as well. As I recall the lightning bolt spell is specific in that it bounces straight back and not at angles. If that is correct that DM really had it out for you guys.

[Lord Torath]

Also, I plan on never letting this guy GM again.

I think this is the most important thing to take away from your experience.

Best of luck in your future gaming!

Wait bounced around and hit everybody in the party? Unless you were all in a straight line that should not have happened as well. As I recall the lightning bolt spell is specific in that it bounces straight back and not at angles. If that is correct that DM really had it out for you guys.

The DM might allow reflecting bolts. When this type of lightning bolt strikes a solid surface, the bolt reflects from the surface at an angle equal to the angle of incidence (like light off a mirror). A creature crossed more than once by the bolt must roll a saving throw for every time it is crossed, but it still suffers either full damage (if one saving throw is missed) or half damage (if all saving throws are made).

So the DM can set it bouncing by the book. Doesn’t excuse what this DM did, though.

[LibraryOgre]

I pointed the bolt at a nebulous away direction, I specifically said that was just in case it was a wand of Lighting Bolt. It bounced off of multiple trees to hit everyone in the party. We were being attacked by spiders at the time, so they all died as well. I'd have been fine if the GM had me hit with the bolt as a lesson to be more careful with unidentified items, but hitting everyone was uncalled for. Also, I plan on never letting this guy GM again.

This is a clear case of the DM wanting to end the game, and deciding to go out on a TPK.

[Jay R]

We don't know what details or attitudes or aspects of the situation the DM was reacting to. We don't know what led to that decision.

I will not guess at somebody's motivation without hearing his side, based only on the version presented by somebody annoyed at him.

[The Random NPC]

I don't believe he was trying to end the game, but I do believe that he wouldn't have minded if the game ended.

[johnbragg]

I don't believe he was trying to end the game, but I do believe that he wouldn't have minded if the game ended.

This is a little off. His very idiosyncratic ruling was that a lightning bolt from a wand bounced off of a tree (!) and killed both of the PCs. What did he expect to happen at that point?

Upthread, you mention backup characters. But a TPK means the game is over. You might start a new game with the same people and the same module, but the DM ended the game.

[The Random NPC]

This is a little off. His very idiosyncratic ruling was that a lightning bolt from a wand bounced off of a tree (!) and killed both of the PCs. What did he expect to happen at that point?

Upthread, you mention backup characters. But a TPK means the game is over. You might start a new game with the same people and the same module, but the DM ended the game.

What I mean is that he seemed ambivalent about the game ending. If it ends, he doesn't have to GM anymore and will likely get to play. If it doesn't he gets to continue his power trip. Or that's what it seemed like to me, regardless, a different person is now running Pathfinder and I believe we're all better off for it.

[Sgt_Dubie]

‘Ok everybody... rocks fall, everybody dies. New game, I’m not DMing this one for a change...’

I know the mood lol...

[Jay R]

‘Ok everybody... rocks fall, everybody dies. New game, I’m not DMing this one for a change...’

I know the mood lol...

I do too, but I prefer some version of, "OK, you make it home with all the loot. The king gives you all noble titles and castles. Everything seems pretty peaceful now, so there's no new adventure to go on. Great job, you all win!

"Who wants to run the next game?"

But the usual ending to my games - both those I run and those I play, is, "I can't play this weekend. Something came up," several weeks in a row. I currently have a gnome illusionist trying to discover what quest he's on, a ranger trying to fix a monolith, a wizard son of a pharaoh trying to prove worthy to inherit the kingdom, a 2e elven thief wizard trying to run a county, and a mystic superhero trying to prevent the future he's seen, none of whom have played for months or years.

[CE DM]

a sad end

the idiotic bouncing bolts is a hold over from prior editions (only an option in 2e, and one best not taken, obviously), but trees could/would count as "a solid surface", at least sometimes.

Most of us aren't used to mature trees these days, or larger varieties, but they exist/would be commonplace "back then".

Still a really crappy use (& sheer BS on the whole party hit, although I've seen lightning bolts gone crazy in the balder's gate video games). A new DM sounds like a good idea.

https://s16-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bi...af132e8f360c16

https://s16-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bi...0f36328880961b

not saying it was that, but hey

[The Random NPC]

The forest was described as very dark, but I thought that was because of the massive spider infestation. It was so thick when we threw a dagger up it didn't come down.

[CE DM]

Well, better luck with the next DM (you perhaps?)

[The Random NPC]

Well, better luck with the next DM (you perhaps?)

It's one of the other players, he's GMed before. I don't have the patience for GMing.

[Knaight]

But the usual ending to my games - both those I run and those I play, is, "I can't play this weekend. Something came up," several weeks in a row. I currently have a gnome illusionist trying to discover what quest he's on, a ranger trying to fix a monolith, a wizard son of a pharaoh trying to prove worthy to inherit the kingdom, a 2e elven thief wizard trying to run a county, and a mystic superhero trying to prevent the future he's seen, none of whom have played for months or years.

Logistics is the primary killer of campaigns - which can manifest in a few ways, but at least for me tends to involve campaigns either moving along smoothly until getting killed by the holidays, or campaigns moving along smoothly until getting killed by the end of a semester (which can vary depending on players) and a schedule change eating the time slot.

[opaopajr]

Heh, who here is surprised? Called it.

I am perfectly fine with rebounding or reflecting Lightning Bolt. BUT, you explicitly were testing it out in a long space direction 'just in case it could be a Wand of Lightning Bolts'. And even if it was a 10th SpellCaster lvl Wand (10d6) that's 40+100 yds, or 420 feet. Point being, somehow the bolt perfectly rebounded (ricocheted) from hitting A Tree Far Off in the Distant Fairway, back onto ALL party members, & ALL Spider enemies in a display to leave Billiard Masters in awe.

It's a joke. He's not GM material. He's a control freak, with 'respect mah authoritah' issues, who thinks he's clever.

So sorry, but expected from your previous anecdotes. Leave him to his glorious imaginary victories in his mind. And now you know the warning signs of "those who can't..."

[CE DM]

sounded like a thick forest to me (but maybe it wasn't).

the wand would be 6d6 pre 3e, unless specially placed or made. L6 was default for wands. There is a special tweak though, rolls of 1's become 2's. Thus they do 12-36 hp (same for fireball or even cone of cold via wand).

Still, I'd say your call was made, sadly.

[Lord Torath]

If it's a very thick forest, the trees are likely to be small in diameter, and thus not big enough to reflect a lightning bolt. If the trunks are 5-10 feet in diameter (big enough to reflect a lightning bolt), then the trees are going to be spaced far apart from each other, and its unlikely that a wand pointed nebulously "away" will hit one. And unless the DM had a map showing the exact placement of each tree trunk, and broke out a protractor and a straight edge to prove that the lightning bolt did, in fact, rebound precisely, I'm going to call this a Bad Call. While it is technically possible for a lightning bolt to rebound as the DM said, I would hazard the odds of it happening would be worse than shooting a single gnat while blindfolded in an empty barn (other than the single gnat) with a .22-caliber rifle with a single shot with a Silence 15' Radius spell centered on the rifle.

This DM has no defense.

[CE DM]

I'm not trying to give him one...everyone in a party & a group of enemies all hit by numerous rebounds in the woods sounded utterly bonkers to me immediately

[Sgt_Dubie]

Still a really crappy use (& sheer BS on the whole party hit, although I've seen lightning bolts gone crazy in the obalder's gate video games).

I’ve accidentally killed my whole party with bouncing lightning bolts in BG games a time or two... as a result of sending one off at fairly close range indoors, with narrow corridors and small rooms... I doubt the forest had a 10’ wide stone walled hall that everyone and everything was confined in...

[TrinculoLives]

How do I deal with hordes of enemies?

Narration, and not combat mechanics.

[jojo]

How do I deal with hordes of enemies?

Narration, and not combat mechanics.

That works, having a horde of hirelings is also valid.

Circling way back around though, since stuff continued to conform to my original assessments:

Plate mail in my 2e AD&D PHB costs 600 GP. Still more than a standard 1st level character would have but less than half your stated minimum...

"Platemail" from the Arms and Armor manual is 600gp. Your 2e AD&D PHB says that "Full Plate" costs 1,300 to 1,500 gp depending on the printing. It does say that Half-Plate costs 600gp, or half as much regardless of what printing you're looking at.

Feel free to check the SRD if you want.

costs of plate mail armor in old school D&D games
1e 400 gp
2e 600 gp
B/X 60gp
splint (AC 4) is a mere 80gp in AD&D

Again, no. See above, google the SRD. Open the PHB.

The "Platemail" in the AAM actually only gives AC 3 at 600gp.

[CE DM]

The SRD doesn't help, as it isn't for those games. Sorry, but all I typed was 100% accurate. By all means, crack a book open.