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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mike_Lemmer's Avatar

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    Default 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Just got back from PAX, where I managed to get some more info on 4th edition from one of the playtesters manning the Wizards booth. Note that this info may be inaccurate or subject to change.

    Will the online D&D games be user-to-user or run off a central server?

    Central server. (So if it crashes, you're out of luck.)

    I know you're changing class abilities to be encounter-based instead of day-based, but what about the duration of buffs? Will you still have X min/lvl buffs?

    Nope. Buff durations will be drastically modified.

    What are you doing about Save or Lose spells?

    We're trying to get away from mages that rely primarily on Save or Lose/Die spells. For example, we're basing most things around doing HP damage, then tying conditions to HP loss. We do not want characters dying from a single failed die roll.

    Like?

    For example, you drop below half HP, you become Bloodied. Then there are abilities you can only use while Bloodied, and abilities you can only use against Bloodied opponents. (Sounds like Fighters can get a Last Stand buff, while Rogues can unleash some nasty attacks against Bloodied enemies.)

    So if you go up against a Beholder now, you don't have to make 2-4 saves each round to avoid dying?

    Basically. The beholder is still nasty, but it isn't "I dropped your 14th-level fighter from full health to dead because you rolled a 1" nasty.

    Do you still have to make a Fort save or Die if you take massive damage?

    No. You may have to make a Fort save or suffer penalties for the rest of the day, but you will not die from massive damage unless it drops you to -10.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Interesting. So it looks like they're getting away from the whole "I am in perfect health and effectiveness as long as I have 1 HP" thing.


    If they really base a lot of stuff off of this, there's going to be a whole new aspect of twinkage- HP management!
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Hmmn. Not sure what I think about all that. It sounds interesting, but increasingly like some well loved artifacts of the game are getting the push.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    I hope wizards still get a fair number of non-damage spells.

    See, I don't just shy away from fireball and magic missile because they're weak, I keep away from them because they're too blatant. Wizards should have an option for being subtle. I like wizards to have spells that don't directly damage their opponents. To me, that's what being a wizard is all about. A fireball is not subtle. It isn't clever. It's using a hammer when a scalpel would work better.
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Adding some drawbacks for being heavily wounded is clearly good. However, limiting options to just dealing damage doesn't sound too good.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    I hope wizards still get a fair number of non-damage spells.

    See, I don't just shy away from fireball and magic missile because they're weak, I keep away from them because they're too blatant. Wizards should have an option for being subtle. I like wizards to have spells that don't directly damage their opponents. To me, that's what being a wizard is all about. A fireball is not subtle. It isn't clever. It's using a hammer when a scalpel would work better.
    Whelm is pretty subtle (as far as damage spells go). I'm fond of Whelm.

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    I hope wizards still get a fair number of non-damage spells.
    I would assume so as well. Remember that I was talking to the guy in the middle of a convention, while he was manning a booth, about a game that isn't coming out for 8 months, in a hurry and without anything to take notes on. There was a severe lack of time to ask for clarification.

    Also, he may have been talking specifically about Save or Die spells (Disintegrate, Touch of Death, etc.) when he mentioned emphasizing HP damage, as the original example I brought up were all the insta-death spells past 5th level.
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Darn.
    I liked the "save or die 4 time a round" aspect of beholders.
    That's what beholders are for.

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    I hope wizards still get a fair number of non-damage spells.

    See, I don't just shy away from fireball and magic missile because they're weak, I keep away from them because they're too blatant. Wizards should have an option for being subtle. I like wizards to have spells that don't directly damage their opponents. To me, that's what being a wizard is all about. A fireball is not subtle. It isn't clever. It's using a hammer when a scalpel would work better.
    Well, the guys at wizards seem to think otherwise. To them, "being a wizard is about blasting your opponents with magical energies". The problem was that in 3.x, HP damage really was the hammer, while save-or-loose was the scalpel.

    They have already said they're gonna fix that in 4th. The thing is, they can either do that by taking away the scalpel (), or by turning the hammer into a scalpel ()
    Quote Originally Posted by Altair_the_Vexed View Post
    Darn.
    I liked the "save or die 4 time a round" aspect of beholders.
    That's what beholders are for.
    Killing half a party of beloved characters in a dull and boring way?
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    See, part of the problem with having wizards focus on HP damage is that it puts them in direct competition with fighters and other classes. One of the things that helped the class power disparity in 3rd was that the wizard wasn't really horning into the fighter's territory, the way the cleric or druid were, since he was rarely doing actual damage. Now, granted, I have no problem with not having save-or-lose or save-or-die spells anymore. Those could kill the tension pretty easily. But I want to have general debuffs and battlefield control spells as well. These are things the wizard can do that no one else can. Ideally, the wizard doesn't actually kill things. He just makes it easier for everyone else to do so.
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Much as I like the thought of conditions being applied to combatants -- Bloodied, to name the most prominently mentioned -- I've got to admit I'm dubious about the apparent near-abolishment of save-or-debuff spells. I can't help but imagine something like the following...

    "The ogre lumbers around the paladin and the goblins, snarling and slapping its enormous club into its free hand."
    "Um... oh crap... the fighter's still tied up too?"
    "A few more strides and the ogre will be close enough for you to smell its vile breath."
    "I cast ray of enfeeblement! Hopefully that'll weaken it enough to--"
    "Oh, you must've played 3.5. There's no ray of enfeeblement in 4.0."
    "What?!? Crap. Um. Magic missile, then, for... uh... 5."
    "The ogre bellows as your spell slams home, but seems otherwise unbothered. It lashes out with its club and hits you for... ouch. 15."
    "Well, ****. I'm dead. That was lots of fun..."
    Last edited by Abstruse; 2007-08-26 at 06:27 PM.

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    I think this is really interesting. "Spiral of death" mechanics are much more realistic than the current perfect-health-until-dead mechanics. However, some spiral-of-death mechanics do have problems - for instance, let's say "bloodied" meant -2 on all d20 rolls. Once you were at a disadvantage in a fight, you'd have an increasingly difficult time digging yourself out of the hole you were in.

    However, the "bloodied" status described by Mike_Lemmer didn't have a d20 roll penalty attached - the playtester talked about different special abilities, for and against, coming into play. That sounds like a good way to go to me.
    Blunder's Law: Just because it can be fixed doesn't mean it's not broken.

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Moving to a per-encounter based concept is brilliance. Encouraging party activity and motility, Doubleplusgood.

    Introducing a mechanic that creates (No matter what bonuses given) a penalty to progressing at anything other than full hit-points... while more accurate, and realistic... Will only cause the Fighters and Clerics to take the role formerly held by mages, and will demand the party stops for the day whenever they need to recharge HP, rather than spells per day.

    *shrugs* At least, that's how I see it playing out. I may be pleasantly surprised, and proven entirely incorrect.

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    It's a problem of their own making, though. By massively increasing Hit Points in 3e and Damage as well, they exaggerated the problems of an already cumbersome, but workable, mechanic. 'Bloodied' sounds suspiciously like a patch up job. Could be fun, though.

    Pah, I spit on your per encounter nonesense.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-08-26 at 07:43 PM.
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Lemmer View Post
    We do not want characters dying from a single failed die roll.
    I take that to mean that there will still be non-damage spells, just that there won't be any save-or-die (Disintegrate, Phantasmal Killer) or Save-or-pretty-much-just-die (shivering touch comes to mind), but there will still be debuffs, and I'm sure with or without extreme twinkage there will be ways to make those debuffs deadly.

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    But I want to have general debuffs and battlefield control spells as well. These are things the wizard can do that no one else can. Ideally, the wizard doesn't actually kill things. He just makes it easier for everyone else to do so.
    I'll just pray the guys at wizards have been following your logic for the last couple of years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Pah, I spit on your per encounter nonesense.
    What's so bad with per encounter abilities.
    They're stuff you can do at will (which makes much more sense than being able to do it 1/day), only it takes a few seconds of peace in order to focus yourself enough to do it again, which forbids you from doing it more than once per encounter.
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by brian c View Post
    I take that to mean that there will still be non-damage spells, just that there won't be any save-or-die (Disintegrate, Phantasmal Killer) or Save-or-pretty-much-just-die (shivering touch comes to mind), but there will still be debuffs, and I'm sure with or without extreme twinkage there will be ways to make those debuffs deadly.
    True, but debuffs can be dispelled easier than raising the dead, even in the middle of a battle.
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Oh good, I was hoping I'd hear about this. I couldn't hear a thing so I just left after the Gleemax panel, somewhat disappointed.

    I remember that the Wizards were designated as a "Controller" role or somesuch in a party. That says to me that they'll still have plenty of options not revolving around direct damage, but that they won't be able to drop a fully healed, well-rested character with one spell.
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Bassetking View Post
    Moving to a per-encounter based concept is brilliance. Encouraging party activity and motility, Doubleplusgood.

    Introducing a mechanic that creates (No matter what bonuses given) a penalty to progressing at anything other than full hit-points... while more accurate, and realistic... Will only cause the Fighters and Clerics to take the role formerly held by mages, and will demand the party stops for the day whenever they need to recharge HP, rather than spells per day.

    *shrugs* At least, that's how I see it playing out. I may be pleasantly surprised, and proven entirely incorrect.
    Not necessarily. It really depends on what the effects of being "bloodied" are. It may not even carry a penalty. If it does, melee types will probably have some ability that lets them negate the penalty and perhaps get bonuses instead; WotC has already experimented with mechanics that only kick in when you're at half hit points or less (IIRC, there's a dragon shaman aura that gives you fast healing, but only if you're below half hit points).

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Aximili View Post
    What's so bad with per encounter abilities.
    They're stuff you can do at will (which makes much more sense than being able to do it 1/day), only it takes a few seconds of peace in order to focus yourself enough to do it again, which forbids you from doing it more than once per encounter.
    Well, to be honest, I was just taking a lighthearted 'traditionalist' stance. However, I don't use Encounters in a way that would make 'per Encounter' a sensible mechanic for my games (nor have I any need of such a mechanic). I find the whole 'Encounter' paradigm distasteful and anything that fosters that as a method of play I tend to dislike. That's not to say it won't work, just that it's not for me. I have no actual problems with them beyond that, though (i.e. I don't hate it within the context it is presented, I just don't like the context).
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-08-26 at 09:15 PM.
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Well, to be honest, I was just taking a lighthearted 'traditionalist' stance. However, I don't use Encounters in a way that would make 'per Encounter' a sensible mechanic for my games (nor have I any need of such a mechanic). I find the whole 'Encounter' paradigm distasteful and anything that fosters that as a method of play I tend to dislike. That's not to say it won't work, just that it's not for me. I have no actual problems with them beyond that, though (i.e. I don't hate it within the context it is presented, I just don't like the context).
    Hm... I see.
    Well, I just said that cause it seems that some people regard encounter as a separate dimension with it's own way of handling things(something like final fantasy combats). While it's just really a name to call several consecutive rounds of tension.
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    I hope wizards still get a fair number of non-damage spells.
    Actually, from everything I’ve heard so far it will be an HP management game.

    I liked 3E, but the “utility” spells suffered from 2nd and 1st edition. I hope plenty of utility/role playing spells will be included.
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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Hmm, sounds a lot like the Health System White Wolf uses in WoD.
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    I think the whole "bloodied" thing sounds good. I mean, so long as they come up with sufficient advantages to balance the drawbacks.

    I can see it now, the rogue leaps from the shadows, slicing at the barbarian's neck with his twin kukri. Bloodied but onbowed, the barbarian seems to get angrier and angrier, and suddenly the rogue wishes he'd stayed hidden...

    I'm foreseeing extra rage bonuses once injured, and abilities that allow for desperate win-or-lose maneuvers for your injured fighter. I'm thinking that a rogue would have advantages once they bloodied an opponent too, adding to their decisive initial strike with suprise style of combat.

    All speculation of course, but fun speculation!

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Lemmer View Post
    I know you're changing class abilities to be encounter-based instead of day-based,
    Oh, that's a good idea.

    D&D 5th edition rules:

    Roll 1d6:
    1-5: you have defeated your opponent.
    6: roll again.

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Aximili View Post
    What's so bad with per encounter abilities.
    For one, it is purely mechanical and doesn't make any sense from a universe point of view.

    As a matter of fact, defining a continuous adventure as a series of discrete "encounters" is also purely mechanical and doesn't make any sense from a universe point of view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    For one, it is purely mechanical and doesn't make any sense from a universe point of view.
    meditating 5 minutes after depleting your "spell slots" makes just about as much sense as resting 8 hours to replenish your "spell slots". And "per encounter" can easily be solved as requiring 5min. of meditation, thus rendering it almost impossible to do within an encounter, while avoiding narcoleptic casters because your "universe" decided to ambush the characters 3 times in the first 3 hours of being awake and everyone decides to rest for the remaining 21 hours because the casters ran out of spells.
    Yes, as a DM you could avoid this by spreading out the spell-draining encounters over the day...which doesn't make much sense in many adventure situations, such as invading a hostile city. You are bound to have more than 5 "encounters" per day (including non-combat ones that rely on spellcasting, such as methods of deception and scrying) and quite a few will take place within only 1-2 hours of in-game time.

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Oh, that's a good idea.

    D&D 5th edition rules:

    Roll 1d6:
    1-5: you have defeated your opponent.
    6: roll again.
    No, that's 3E rules. Except it's the DM who rolls, it's 1d20, and he's checking to see if the opponent made its saving throw versus Batman.

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Oh, that's a good idea.

    D&D 5th edition rules:

    Roll 1d6:
    1-5: you have defeated your opponent.
    6: roll again.
    Because obviously the per-encounter abilities are going to be just as powerful as the per-day abilities were, right? It's not like the fact that you won't be depleting resources over the course of the day could possibly be taken into account when designing classes and challenges.


    Seriously, some classes being on always-on abilities, some being on per-encounter, and some being on per-day is a hassle. It's not particularily good for a game. If everyone's on a "constant and per-encounter" basis, then things are easier to balance and you stop a bunch of problems--like narcoleptic parties.

    Per-encounter mechanics generally make for better gameplay than per day. Fights can still be tense, but you can do a lot more per adventure. "Whoops, cleric's outta heals. Better wait for tomorrow" doesn't make for particularily fun gaming.

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    Default Re: 4th Ed: Tidbits from PAX

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Per-encounter mechanics generally make for better gameplay than per day. Fights can still be tense, but you can do a lot more per adventure. "Whoops, cleric's outta heals. Better wait for tomorrow" doesn't make for particularily fun gaming.
    Actually "Whoops, cerics outta heals and we're still in the Great Swamp being trailled by 12 trolls." does make for particularly fun gaming. Coping with limits is a huge source of drama. Innane rules such as 4 encounters per day and per-encounter abilities belong in Fantasy Ludo, not in an RPG.

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