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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    A few more blue pencil marks in the margins

    1. In abilities section

    • Strenght: This is either whatever or garbage for Arcane Tricksters
    Strength

    2. In feats section

    .Spell Sniper Needs to be bolded
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2018-07-03 at 03:09 PM.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) or so I am told ... by 2D8HP

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    A few more blue pencil marks in the margins

    1. In abilities section


    Strength

    2. In feats section

    .Spell Sniper Needs to be bolded
    Hey, thanks!

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    I'm surprised the Mobile feat isn't mentioned. It might be slightly niche, but it does have synergy with Booming Blade and Cunning Action. Here's the description of Mobile:
    Mobile
    You are exceptionally speedy and agile. You gain the following benefits:
    • Your speed increases by 10 feet.
    • When you use the Dash action, difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement on that turn.
    • When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.
    So here's the tactic you'd use, assuming a base speed of 30 feet:

    Start your turn within 40 feet of an enemy.

    Use your movement to get within melee range.

    Use Booming Blade. Hit or miss, they can't make OAs against you.

    Bonus action Dash to move 40 feet away.

    Many creatures have a speed of 30 feet, so even if they are willing to tank the damage from Booming Blade, they aren't able to get close enough for melee without using their action to Dash. If they do, then just Booming Blade them on your turn and move 40 feet away again. Bonus points if you're able to make use of difficult terrain, since Dashing means you don't get slowed down by difficult terrain for all of your movement that turn, not just your Dash movement.

    Now, as I said, this is a bit niche. Some creatures have a speed of 40 or greater. Some can Dash as a bonus action like you. Sometimes enemies are standing close enough that you can't get in and out of melee range without provoking an AO from your target's friend. But Mobile gives you a lot. The +10 speed is really nice, and not needing to Disengage any time you're facing a single opponent is really nice. It's like it was made with hit-and-run melee rogues in mind.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by AvvyR View Post
    DEX+INT for initiative, and Arcane Deflection is a resourceless baby-Shield and save boost. Melee AT's usually stick to cantrips anyway. Plus you don't get into sticky racial restrictions for Bladesinger.
    The best thing about Tactical Wit is, imo, that you can choose and don't have to add Int to initiative. As delaying is not a thing in 5e, this is one of the few (are there even more?) ways to actually adjust your spot in the initiative order to your liking. This is of course situational, but sometimes you'd like to have an ally move first for example, so you can sneak attack easier.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleister VII View Post
    Amazing guide, I'm currently thinking how should I make my first rogue PC, I was considering just making an assassin and ambush like crazy but after reading the guide AT seems a lot more appealing to me specially the familiar strategy and spamming BB with a Wood elf extra speed maybe even add mobile just to troll my foes even more xD
    The shenanigans I can pull out with minor illusion are endless and I think o can get some mileage out of the improved mage hand in any campaign with big cities and disarm traps or whatever, maybe picking the lock of a chest from distance and then send my familiar to retrieve the item that was inside or something like that.

    Magical ambush however seems slightly lackluster to me.
    I have been playing an arcane trickster 13/fighter 2. Magical ambush is encounter changing. Hypnotic pattern from hidden, forcing a wisdom save at disadvantage has been devastating to my dm's encounters. He had to give his big bad a legendary save just so he could escape after I hit him with disadvantaged hold person. It is very powerful.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Galadhrim View Post
    I have been playing an arcane trickster 13/fighter 2. Magical ambush is encounter changing. Hypnotic pattern from hidden, forcing a wisdom save at disadvantage has been devastating to my dm's encounters. He had to give his big bad a legendary save just so he could escape after I hit him with disadvantaged hold person. It is very powerful.
    Ditto. When an encounter breaks out, hiding places are now priority number 1.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    I am going with a BRAIN / Utility type Half Elf AT.

    I have a 17 INT ATM and plan on taking the Investigator feat @ LvL 4 to round out my INT and get an expertise in that skill.
    Should I Max out INT or is an 18 good enough?
    I have an 16 DEX and I feel it needs the LvL 8 and 10 ASIs to get it up to MAX and then Resilient CON or War Caster for my CON that is currently 14.

    Suggestions, Ideas or Thoughts?
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgerunner View Post
    I am going with a BRAIN / Utility type Half Elf AT.

    I have a 17 INT ATM and plan on taking the Investigator feat @ LvL 4 to round out my INT and get an expertise in that skill.
    Should I Max out INT or is an 18 good enough?
    I have an 16 DEX and I feel it needs the LvL 8 and 10 ASIs to get it up to MAX and then Resilient CON or War Caster for my CON that is currently 14.

    Suggestions, Ideas or Thoughts?
    Maxing out INT on an Arcane Trickster really isn't worth it. It only impacts spell saves (and you're casting spells multiple levels lower than a full caster, so even if you have high saves most of your spells won't have an enormous impact) and a few skills. You're almost certainly going to get better return on your investment putting that into DEX or a useful Feat. For what it's worth, I have an Arcane Trickster with a two level dip into Bladesinger Wizard and even using the INT for Bladesong I don't intend to max it out (actually, I'm using a Headband of Intellect so it will remain at 19 indefinitely).

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgerunner View Post
    I am going with a BRAIN / Utility type Half Elf AT.

    I have a 17 INT ATM and plan on taking the Investigator feat @ LvL 4 to round out my INT and get an expertise in that skill.
    Should I Max out INT or is an 18 good enough?
    I have an 16 DEX and I feel it needs the LvL 8 and 10 ASIs to get it up to MAX and then Resilient CON or War Caster for my CON that is currently 14.

    Suggestions, Ideas or Thoughts?
    18 is enough. +1 on save DC and INT skills shouldn't be worth more than Resilient (CON), or even Tough.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Inspired by Treantmonk's recent threads, I made a detailed guide on how to build an Arcane Trickster.
    It's on Google Drive.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lU...4Q39YJFNfWV_uH

    Thoughts are welcome.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    Inspired by Treantmonk's recent threads, I made a detailed guide on how to build an Arcane Trickster.
    It's on Google Drive.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lU...4Q39YJFNfWV_uH

    Thoughts are welcome.
    I enjoyed this quite a bit. The only suggestion I'd have is that the use of both the SCAG cantrips and Toll the Dead makes this build illegal for Adventurers League. Honestly, I'd skip Toll the Dead anyway, I don't think a save based cantrip is terribly important for a Rogue, I'd rather pick up Prestidigitation for random usefulness or grab Green Flame Blade earlier.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by rooneg View Post
    I enjoyed this quite a bit. The only suggestion I'd have is that the use of both the SCAG cantrips and Toll the Dead makes this build illegal for Adventurers League. Honestly, I'd skip Toll the Dead anyway, I don't think a save based cantrip is terribly important for a Rogue, I'd rather pick up Prestidigitation for random usefulness or grab Green Flame Blade earlier.
    Good call.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    I understand that this is an 'Arcane Trickster's Guide" but can't you achieve this by going Swashbuckler X/ Lore Bard 6 and actually be Better at it?

    Yea you lose out on Sneak Attack but you gain a better range of Spells and Skills?

    Not trolling and very curious about Other Magical Thief builds.
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgerunner View Post
    I understand that this is an 'Arcane Trickster's Guide" but can't you achieve this by going Swashbuckler X/ Lore Bard 6 and actually be Better at it?

    Yea you lose out on Sneak Attack but you gain a better range of Spells and Skills?

    Not trolling and very curious about Other Magical Thief builds.
    Delaying the acquisition of mid-high end Rogue abilities is a big no-no in my experience.

    Magical Ambush + Extra sneak attack dice is often far more worth it. Forcing disadvantage on spell saves is amazing. Especially in higher tiers where magic resistance is very common; taking away advantage is arguably better.

    Perhaps if you could elaborate on where you envision this 6 level Lore bard dip being thrown in the mix it might help me understand why you think it's better.

    I see those 6 levels in Lore Bard represent a huge opportunity cost equivalent to 3-4d6 sneak attack dice (which is 10.5-28 DPR depending on opportunity attacks), and things like Evasion (7), Extra ASI's (8, 10, 12) or even Blindsense and Slippery Mind (14, 15).
    "What most us tend to forget is that statistically speaking, 50% of people out there have below average intelligence."

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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post

    I see those 6 levels in Lore Bard represent a huge opportunity cost equivalent to 3-4d6 sneak attack dice (which is 10.5-28 DPR depending on opportunity attacks), and things like Evasion (7), Extra ASI's (8, 10, 12) or even Blindsense and Slippery Mind (14, 15).
    My idea is for a Conman Rogue

    In Combat, yes it takes a hit but out of combat the "Magical Rogue" build just got a ton more useful. LvL 6 in Lore Bard gets you Magical Secrets so take what you like, Cutting Words makes sure your spells stick and Jack of All Trades/ More Expertise makes you pertinent in every situation.

    Characters aren't All about Combat.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgerunner View Post
    My idea is for a Conman Rogue

    In Combat, yes it takes a hit but out of combat the "Magical Rogue" build just got a ton more useful. LvL 6 in Lore Bard gets you Magical Secrets so take what you like, Cutting Words makes sure your spells stick and Jack of All Trades/ More Expertise makes you pertinent in every situation.

    Characters aren't All about Combat.
    Unless the spell requires an ability check to break I don't see how cutting words makes spells stick; it doesn't affect saves. (Have you even played the build your propositioning?)

    It sounds like you have your own vision of what a magical rogue should be (apparently less useful in combat) and while yes, having heaps of skills is cool, people go into the Arcane Trickster archetype knowing their charisma isn't stellar. There is also nothing stopping DM's from asking for Intelligence based deception checks (far more realistic if you ask me) to help their player maximise their potential. Additionally, disguise kits and Investigation to see what might normally be hidden, rely on Intelligence, so there are some facets that your conman might stumble on more than the Arcane Trickster would.

    Magical Conman actually sounds more like a splash of sorceror is more appropriate than Lore Bard; subtle spell is mandatory for social shenanigans imho.
    "What most us tend to forget is that statistically speaking, 50% of people out there have below average intelligence."

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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    Unless the spell requires an ability check to break I don't see how cutting words makes spells stick; it doesn't affect saves.
    Sorry. Got Bardic Inspiration/Cutting Words mixed up.
    Last edited by Edgerunner; 2019-02-27 at 10:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    A few points:

    Reliable Talent-- You're selling this way short. There are two kinds of situations where you really want to boost your skills: When the task is very difficult, or when the stakes are very high. When the task is very difficult, mostly what you need is to increase your best-case scenario, and Reliable Talent does nothing for this. But on the other hand, when the stakes are very high (for instance, stealthily scouting ahead away from the party, where getting spotted is likely to kill you), what you care about is improving your worst-case scenario, and for that, Reliable Talent is equivalent to a +9. That's huge.

    Magical Ambush-- Isn't quite as good as you think, since it can't be used on Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, or Fireball. The ability says "If you are hidden from a creature when you cast a spell on it...". You don't cast those spells on a creature; you cast them on an area. It's still great for Suggestion, Tasha's, etc., though, especially since 5e has so few ways to mess with an enemy's saves.

    Feats-- You don't mention Ritual Caster. This can get you that oh-so-nice familiar without spending your precious any-school first-level spell on it, as well as a variety of other utility spells. If you're a vhuman, it also lets you get in on the magic game (to a degree, at least) starting right at 1st level.
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    One last blue pencil point:
    I think you meant wood elf on this one. Half elf does not get speed bonus.
    • Lightning Lure - Minor damage while pulling the enemy closer. If you have a good walking speed from Mobile or Half-Elf, this could seriously annoy the enemy, though.
    Wood elf gets the initial boost to 35' walking speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    One last blue pencil point:
    I think you meant wood elf on this one. Half elf does not get speed bonus.
    Wood elf gets the initial boost to 35' walking speed.
    Variant Wood Half-Elf could get the same walking speed too.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    Unless the spell requires an ability check to break I don't see how cutting words makes spells stick; it doesn't affect saves. (Have you even played the build your propositioning?)
    For what it is worth, many illusions do indeed call for checks not saves

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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    ...

    Magical Ambush-- Isn't quite as good as you think, since it can't be used on Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, or Fireball. The ability says "If you are hidden from a creature when you cast a spell on it...". You don't cast those spells on a creature; you cast them on an area. It's still great for Suggestion, Tasha's, etc., though, especially since 5e has so few ways to mess with an enemy's saves.
    I'm sorry to say that this is incorrect.

    Starting at 9th level, if you are hidden from a creature when you cast a spell on it, the creature has disadvantage on any saving throw it makes against the spell this turn.

    While I can understand your logic, a creature can have a spell cast on it without specifically being targeted by it.

    If we were to imagine the wording of how people would describe a creature under the effects of Hypnotic Pattern they might say "they've had a spell cast on them."

    Moreover, we've often seen restrictions for features which only affect single target spells denote as such (like with Twinned Spell).

    The spell need only require a save and affect creatures.

    This has also been clarified by Jeremy Crawford.
    Last edited by TheUser; 2019-02-27 at 03:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    I agree. It's the difference between the general "having a spell cast on them", and the more specific language of being "the target of a spell" as used in some other features and effects.

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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogeeogelthorpe View Post
    The build I went with was half elf arcane trickster/bladesinger with sword coast cantrips. Being part wizard affords me the ability to learn spells outside of the PHB +1 for adventurers league, which is a huge bonus. Also ritual spells can be literal lifesavers and you don't have to burn your spell slots. (Hello identify, detect magic and alarm!)

    Half elf charlatan
    AC: 19 (Mage armor is 13 +4 dex, bracers of defense +2. Boosted to 22 with blade song and 27 with shield, + mirror image + uncanny dodge when I actually do get hit)
    AT5/BS4

    [snip]

    The way I plan on building this towards AL endgame content is either AT11/BS9 for level 5 spells (Bigby's hand! Steel wind strike!!!), or AT12/BS8 for upcasted 3rd and 4th level spells and final ASI (Probably either lucky, mage slayer or warcaster to assassinate enemy casters)

    The only dead/tough levels I've had where I felt underpowered compared to others were 4-6, where our variant human ranger with sharpshooter/crossbow expert was spamming out 3D6+39 damage per turn before hunters mark, and when our half orc zealot barbarian/champion was critting at least once every other turn.
    I love this build and am starting down the same path right now, beginning new campaign at level 3, I'm starting Wiz 2(BS)/ Rogue 1.

    I was wondering if you (or anyone) had any suggestions for leveling order or tips you learned slogging through that 4-6 period.
    Last edited by tieren; 2019-02-27 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Huh, do you have a link to that clarification from Crawford? That would have come in handy back when I was playing an arcane trickster and the DM ruled against using it with Hypnotic Pattern.
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Huh, do you have a link to that clarification from Crawford? That would have come in handy back when I was playing an arcane trickster and the DM ruled against using it with Hypnotic Pattern.
    https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...49557668085760
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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    I had a chance to see someone play my Gith Arcane Trickster idea proposed earlier in the thread, and it was a lot of fun. The ability to use Mage Hand to do all the fun Legerdemain tricks completely on the sly... your racial Mage Hand has no components, and so can be cast without any indication... so you can focus on remaining hidden or just inconspicuous.

    Everything not nailed down (well... not nailed down with more than 10 lbs or force) that you can get within 30 feet of is yours; drop poison wherever you want it, all kinds of other nonsense.

    Spoiler: Here is the specific character, but lots of Gith (if either type) would work...
    Show
    Githzerai Arcane-Trickster Urchin
    8/14/14/14/14/12
    Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Deception, Investigation, Perception, Insight
    Common, Gith
    Thieves’ Tools, Disguise Kit, Poisoner’s Kit
    Expertise: Sleight of Hand, Stealth; Thieves’ Tools, Perception
    +2 DEX, +2 DEX, +2 DEX, Luck, Mobile, Alert
    0- Mage Hand, Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation; Message
    1- Sleep, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, Find Familiar; Disguise Self
    2- Invisibility; Shadow Blade; Suggestion; Rope Trick
    3- Hypnotic Pattern; Enemies Abound; Haste
    4- Greater Invisibility; Polymorph

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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by tieren View Post
    I love this build and am starting down the same path right now, beginning new campaign at level 3, I'm starting Wiz 2(BS)/ Rogue 1.

    I was wondering if you (or anyone) had any suggestions for leveling order or tips you learned slogging through that 4-6 period.
    I'm glad you're enjoying it!

    My suggestion for the level 4-6 period is to first consider HOW you want to play. Are you going to be more skill and roleplay focused or do you want to be more combat and damage focused?

    I advanced in tiers like this

    Tier 2: 3AT/2BS. You'll be the goat of the party if you're not at least a skill monkey in this phase. Your spells will only be first level so make sure to pick some control and escape spells. Hit AT 4 quick for the ASI. I would advise something like resilient to be proficient in CON saves, then level up your bladesinger to 3 for Shadowblade which is a literal game changer for you, then 4 for another ASI. By this time you should have no less than 18 dex.

    Tier 3: 5AT/6BS. You lose sneak attack die but a majorly upcast shadowblade + 2 attacks and you're twice as likely to hit for major damage than if you just used a slightly upcast shadowblade + Sword Coast cantrips. The damage works out to roughly the same but you're less likely to miss. Plus if you have a good support caster in the party throwing haste on you, you can still use your SC cantrips and hit twice. Also, if you want to have a little fun at range use a magical bow crossbow (hand or otherwise) with sharpshooter, crossbow expert and fire off Melf's Minute Meteor's. 2 attacks + a baby meteor hurtling at the target.

    Tier 4: 8AT/9BS stopping bladesinger at this level. This is where my character is currently and he is an absolute nightmare for the DM. I was fortunate to have a ton of gold prior to the new DDAL season 8 rules so my spellbook is filled with lots of Xanathar's spells and I've taken to minion-mancy.

    I've got a nightcaller whistle and a skeleton stuffed into my Leomund's secret chest for a quick summon that I mostly use as an archer. A tan bag of tricks that seems to only dump out gorillas that throw rocks, the summon lesser and greater elemental spells, as well as summon lesser and greater demon, and infernal calling as well as the true names of a few devils and a few talismans. My character went a little insane while using contact other plane to get them, but that's besides the point! It's all in good fun, and when you've got a planar-bound air elemental, a dybuk in the body of a tough enemy and a skeleton on the flank as your artillery then you can have your army take down all the trash while the rest of the party can focus on the big bad.
    Last edited by Ogeeogelthorpe; 2019-03-12 at 05:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    I'm at BS 2 / rogue 1 right now, I am really torn on what to do at my next level up. I know getting to BS 3 / rogue 2 for shadow blade and cunning action is my first real benchmark, but I'm not sure which is the more important to get first.

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    Default Re: Magique Filou: The Arcane Trickster's Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by tieren View Post
    I'm at BS 2 / rogue 1 right now, I am really torn on what to do at my next level up. I know getting to BS 3 / rogue 2 for shadow blade and cunning action is my first real benchmark, but I'm not sure which is the more important to get first.
    Personally I'd go for Rogue 2, because cunning action is crucial. It's one of those features you use every single round.

    I've got an AT 3 / BS 3 that is really fun and effective. I took a 3rd level of BS to get access to 2nd level wizard spells because there are so many good ones. That way as I level up I can add 1st and 2nd level spells. My plan is to take rogue at least until I get magical ambush.

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