Just got My Starfinder book.

[Anonymouswizard]

Of course, of the crew has multiple tech savvy characters, access to materials, and enough downtime you could justify increasing SP via giving out generic 'ship system blueprints' as rewards that the PCs can retcon into the reason for improvements during downtime. So L6 characters could park their ship in a deserted canyon, adventure for two levels, then hide in an asteroid belt for six weeks to increase their ship to a L8 one.

Imagine some explorers waltzing into a system, finding new thruster designs in an alien run, then taking time to improve their ship, and then using that to improve their ship before leaving for their next target.

[Telok]

While those are all good ideas on how to make the mechanics and narrative merge gracefully, it's not in the books. Milo posted the total word count on how to manage the ship build point system. That's everything that a new DM has to work with.

[Nupo]

While those are all good ideas on how to make the mechanics and narrative merge gracefully, it's not in the books. Milo posted the total word count on how to manage the ship build point system. That's everything that a new DM has to work with.

What Milo posted is all you need. Couple that with a little creativity, and you are good to go. Yes some people have more creativity than others, but everyone has it. Some just need to wake it up, and table top RPG's are great at waking it up.

[Anonymouswizard]

Also there's nothing wrong with the magical ship fairy approach. It could even literally be how it works in-setting, there's still enough magic around that it's not implausible.

Now I'd want more complicated rules for modifying your ship. Adding new components and power cores, gutting existing systems to make room for new ones, scavenging materials and seeing aside time until the new system becomes usable.

Imagine you just come back from a planetary survey mission to find a war broke out. You join side A and spend two weeks scrabbling to switch out your second cargo hold and factory with additional weaponry and a stronger shield. Later after a bad encounter with side B you use your new Ship Points (you levelled up recently) and several days to upgrade your thrusters and primary beam weapon, to peak a harder punch and get out of engagement range more easily.

But not having those rules doesn't make it a bad game. Partially because it's an easy thing for a GM to handwave of said rules aren't there, partially because not every group wants then. They can also easily be added in a supplement if Paizo wants.

[Rhedyn]

You could use the ship rules from any system because those rules are so separate from the rest of the game.

[Psyren]

My money is on them adding shipbuilding to some future supplement's "Downtime" rules. Much like Core D&D/PF has the basics for hiring laborers and materials, but doesn't really tell you how to build a castle, so we had to wait for splats on that too.

If you absolutely can't wait and are that averse to fiat, I'd follow Rhedyn's suggestion.

[Telok]

What Milo posted is all you need.

It might be all you or I need, but this guy is still new to being a DM. New as in still reading out boxed text new. Not everyone can take a single paragraph and build the connections between a beliveable space fantasy setting and the mechanical game widgets.

I think Psyren is right, we'll have to wait a while before we see any support for the spaceship or vehicle subsystems.

[icefractal]

Also, if he's following an AP, it assumes that the ship improves immediately. So if there's a space battle right after that time spent in the caves, it will be balanced for a fully leveled-up ship. So it's not necessarily trivial to change.

[Psyren]

Not everyone can take a single paragraph and build the connections between a beliveable space fantasy setting and the mechanical game widgets.

It's a valuable skill to cultivate though, so no time like the present!

I agree it's not a perfect system, but I also agree that resorting to "starship fairies" is kinda lazy. Surely there's some middle ground there.

I'm a firm devotee to the adventurer's tax of 14 CO. I can tolerate a 12, for another player's character, if I must but I can't keep quiet for anything lower. I know, it's not my character, but having that low hit points will hurt the party. You drop that much sooner, losing your actions. You need to use more healing resources at an increased rate. You can't need a non-prime score that high that badly to pay for a low CO.

Con doesn't affect HP in Starfinder though. It affects Stamina, but Stamina are much easier to recover (you can refill after every fight, essentially) and don't really require any party resources. You can get by in Starfinder with a 12 or even a 10 much easier than you could in D&D/PF, and you can have viable parties without a healer or healing items being mandatory.

You also don't roll for health, instead getting the maximum every time you level (both stamina and HP).

[Nupo]

We have really gotten attached to the stamina, hit points, and resolve points system that Starfinder uses. When a character is down to taking actual hit point damage it's a serious encounter. It ramps up the tension. We like the system so much we now use it in Pathfinder as well.

[Caelestion]

How do you determine when to spend or recover resolve on the fly?

[icefractal]

How do you determine when to spend or recover resolve on the fly?

It's regained by resting. As far as spending it ... up to how lucky you feel? I think you'd probably want to keep a few points in reserve, unless you were confident you'd be able to rest before encountering more danger.

[Psyren]

Specifically, it's regained by taking a long rest (8 hours) so you want to try and pace your usage throughout the day so that you're not nova-ing it all on the first encounter.

It's also what ticks down while you're bleeding out (killing you when you run dry), and many class features require 1 point in reserve, so try to keep some back at all times. Pretend your pool is smaller than it actually is, and govern yourself accordingly.

[Telok]

It's regained by resting. As far as spending it ... up to how lucky you feel? I think you'd probably want to keep a few points in reserve, unless you were confident you'd be able to rest before encountering more danger.

On the resolve points how does everyone feel about the various abilities that require you to spend them? Given that surviving a single instance of 0hp takes from 1/2 to 1/4 of a character's total pool (and gets really bad if there are damage auras or AoEs) do you ever feel comfortable blowing them on the bonus abilities? I could see it when you're assured of a single combat or maybe a couple space ship combats and nothing else, but not if you're facing multiple fights that amount to anything more than mook/trash mob clearing.

[Psyren]

The idea is to spend Resolve when you need to power up abilities that keep you from dropping to 0HP in the first place (especially with any regularity.)

[Milo v3]

I dislike it, not just because it means your increasing your chances of dying each time you spend resolve to use an ability, but also because of the precedent it sets. Because of this resolve system, it is very unlikely to get a class which has an internal points system.

[Telok]

I'm just not enthralled with the abilities that they power. Most of them aren't any less situational than the other class options, they usually aren't any more powerful, and you're trading what's essentially a 'I don't die this round' token for stuff that often requires hit rolls or offers a save.

[Caelestion]

My question was actually aimed at Nupo and his comment that he's using it in PF as well, but just from reading the main SF book, the powers that use resolve don't seem all that more powerful than the non-resolve abilities.

[Psyren]

I dislike it, not just because it means your increasing your chances of dying each time you spend resolve to use an ability, but also because of the precedent it sets. Because of this resolve system, it is very unlikely to get a class which has an internal points system.

I do like it. The idea is that every new class and its brother in PF was getting internal points anyway: ki pool, arcane pool, psychic pool, arcane reservoir, grit, panache, luck, inspiration etc etc. So it might as well just be a global resource that everyone can incorporate individually.

It also gave them an alternative magic costing restriction that says "this spell shouldn't be spammed" without needing to somehow immersion-breakingly slip the cosmos a bag of gold credstick, or (shudder) needing to track XP costs.

Lastly, it lets them represent a party being worn down at the end of an adventuring day without hamfisted fatigue systems. As a party gets low on resolve, the options available to even the non-casters shrink, and they start getting more antsy about finding a place to rest, adding organic tension.

I'm just not enthralled with the abilities that they power. Most of them aren't any less situational than the other class options, they usually aren't any more powerful, and you're trading what's essentially a 'I don't die this round' token for stuff that often requires hit rolls or offers a save.

My question was actually aimed at Nupo and his comment that he's using it in PF as well, but just from reading the main SF book, the powers that use resolve don't seem all that more powerful than the non-resolve abilities.

I'm not seeing how you two arrived at this conclusion mathematically myself. Looking at the Envoy's resolve abilities for example, I'm seeing plenty of abilities that outweigh one round spent bleeding - such as:

1) Automatically remove a negative condition from an ally up to 60ft away - this includes particularly nasty ones like nauseated, panicked, paralysis, confusion, fear, stun etc.
2) Give an ally your standard action.
3) Change your readied action AND its trigger any time before they go off.
4) Heal 4*level+Cha in stamina to an ally within 30 ft.
5) Make all enemies within 100ft take -4 to ranged attacks targeting your allies, no save.
6) +2 attack/damage to your whole party as a move action. (Note that attack bonuses are much rarer in Starfinder.)
7) Make an enemy up to 60 ft away flat-footed against all your allies' attacks, no save.
8) You or an ally gets to roll twice on a reflex save and take the better result.
9) Add your expertise to your attack roll (i.e. up to 1d8+3 to attack - this includes melee, ranged, and combat maneuver.)

Any one of these has the potential to save you and your group far more damage than a single round of bleeding would. And I haven't even gotten to what the other classes do with it yet.

[Nupo]

My question was actually aimed at Nupo and his comment that he's using it in PF as well, but just from reading the main SF book, the powers that use resolve don't seem all that more powerful than the non-resolve abilities.

Oh, sorry. I thought your question was more general, and others had answered it pretty well.

For Pathfinder, so far we are only using it for regaining stamina and stabilizing. There is a lot more potential for it that we will probably explore with time, but we just started using it with Pathfinder a few weeks ago.

[Milo v3]

I do like it. The idea is that every new class and its brother in PF was getting internal points anyway: ki pool, arcane pool, psychic pool, arcane reservoir, grit, panache, luck, inspiration etc etc. So it might as well just be a global resource that everyone can incorporate individually.

Except it's not just a global resource, it's a global resource which increases your chances of dying. Not being able to add new point pools is seriously annoying for me because I dislike the resolve mechanic outside of healing stamina and not dying.

[Rhedyn]

Except it's not just a global resource, it's a global resource which increases your chances of dying. Not being able to add new point pools is seriously annoying for me because I dislike the resolve mechanic outside of healing stamina and not dying.

On the flip side it's helps naturally balance out the cool moments of optimizers and those who don't.

It's most optimal to use resolve points on cool actions rather than the "not dying" mechanic. Meanwhile those who don't optimize are more likely to end up in situations where they do need to use their resolve points to not die.

[Milo v3]

On the flip side it's helps naturally balance out the cool moments of optimizers and those who don't.

It's most optimal to use resolve points on cool actions rather than the "not dying" mechanic. Meanwhile those who don't optimize are more likely to end up in situations where they do need to use their resolve points to not die.

.... Except it would be better for everyone to be able to do cool actions without screwing themselves over.

[Rhedyn]

.... Except it would be better for everyone to be able to do cool actions without screwing themselves over.

You've never seen a level 20 druid with full Pathfinder WBL sit on the couch and pout while playing his phone rather than bother to learn the vast array of his abilities and attempt to be useful in the final boss fight?

Because I have. Some people REFUSE to learn how to work their character. Once they spent their designated amount of effort and if that doesn't work right away, they shut down. Adding more abilities or pools doesn't mean people will use them.

So a mechanic that benefits people for being passive helps balance groups with those kinds of people.

[Milo v3]

You've never seen a level 20 druid with full Pathfinder WBL sit on the couch and pout while playing his phone rather than bother to learn the vast array of his abilities and attempt to be useful in the final boss fight?

Because I have. Some people REFUSE to learn how to work their character. Once they spent their designated amount of effort and if that doesn't work right away, they shut down. Adding more abilities or pools doesn't mean people will use them.

So a mechanic that benefits people for being passive helps balance groups with those kinds of people.

Bad players will be bad players regardless of whether classes points pools are separate or linked to stamina recovering point pools.

[Anonymouswizard]

I do like it. The idea is that every new class and its brother in PF was getting internal points anyway: ki pool, arcane pool, psychic pool, arcane reservoir, grit, panache, luck, inspiration etc etc. So it might as well just be a global resource that everyone can incorporate individually.

I'll be honest, I love systems that concentrate resources into Health (when you run out you die, although you might enter different states first) and Energy (when you run out you get exhausted), so my main problems with Resolve are the fact it running out only really means you don't have any more, and that it didn't nab spell slots as well.

I like systems where the same resource fuels all costly abilities, it makes bookkeeping easier. You might have to bump up the basic Resolve of characters so low level casters don't get frustrated, but to me it's better than tracking Resolve, six sets of spell slots, and HP/Stamina. I'm also not adverse to abilities running off the 'health track', where uses cause damage, as I'm already tracking that number/numbers.

Even Stamina has interesting connotations as a spendable resource. It brings you closer to taking real damage, but it also refreshes quickly.


But I'm not who Starfinder was aimed at, and I can run science fantasy games in systems more suited to me.

[Psyren]

Except it's not just a global resource, it's a global resource which increases your chances of dying. Not being able to add new point pools is seriously annoying for me because I dislike the resolve mechanic outside of healing stamina and not dying.

Failing a reflex save, or your mystic being nauseated/your soldier paralyzed, will do far more to "increase your chances of dying." I still don't see the issue with it being a resource.

On the flip side it's helps naturally balance out the cool moments of optimizers and those who don't.

It's most optimal to use resolve points on cool actions rather than the "not dying" mechanic. Meanwhile those who don't optimize are more likely to end up in situations where they do need to use their resolve points to not die.

Yeah, that.

.... Except it would be better for everyone to be able to do cool actions without screwing themselves over.

Don't run out of HP and you won't be screwed over. To update a classic RPG truism: "The only hit point/resolve point that actually matters is your last one."

[Telok]

I'm not seeing how you two arrived at this conclusion mathematically myself. Looking at the Envoy's resolve abilities for example, I'm seeing plenty of abilities that outweigh one round spent bleeding - such as:

1) Automatically remove a negative condition from an ally up to 60ft away - this includes particularly nasty ones like nauseated, panicked, paralysis, confusion, fear, stun etc.
2) Give an ally your standard action.
3) Change your readied action AND its trigger any time before they go off.
4) Heal 4*level+Cha in stamina to an ally within 30 ft.
5) Make all enemies within 100ft take -4 to ranged attacks targeting your allies, no save.
6) +2 attack/damage to your whole party as a move action. (Note that attack bonuses are much rarer in Starfinder.)
7) Make an enemy up to 60 ft away flat-footed against all your allies' attacks, no save.
8) You or an ally gets to roll twice on a reflex save and take the better result.
9) Add your expertise to your attack roll (i.e. up to 1d8+3 to attack - this includes melee, ranged, and combat maneuver.)

Any one of these has the potential to save you and your group far more damage than a single round of bleeding would. And I haven't even gotten to what the other classes do with it yet.

Eh, I may not be seeing it mostly because I've been focused on the technomancer ones since that's the character that I'm currently playing. At 4th level with 5 resolve, 52 health, and facing stuff with 1d8+9 damage you really didn't want to use resolve on anything but health (30 health for 1 resolve) or not dying. At that level you're looking at damage boosts or an extra spell slot or spending a resolve point to become proficient with a single weapon for 4 rounds of combat. Given that we're playing an adventure path that has us under WBL and no enemy had had a weapon of better than 1st level at that point...

Even looking ahead to the 5th and 8th level features I see spending resolve to get extend spell, distant spell, reroll one die of damage, a crappy version of dispel magic, a limited version of the spellthrower weapon fusion that only works on grenades, give about a -5 to hit from tech weapons, teleport 30', or two resolve points to use widen spell. The only one I'd consider is the teleport one, but with stopping dying costing 2 resolve points for most of that time and being able to get 40 to 80 health back for one point even that would be a rare and situational ability.

Most of the effects the use resolve just aren't 'cool actions' for the class, more like 'modest bennies'.

[Psyren]

Technomancer has probably the best use for Resolve in the game (Wish.) But even at lower levels, they can use Resolve to:

- Apply various metamagic effects to their spells with no level or casting time increase, nor even feat expenditure
- Deliver touch spells via grenades
- Teleport short distances as a move action (You can Guarded Step + Flash Teleport to escape many hairy situations)
- Give an enemy disadvantage on their next attack, no save

Again, all of the above are much more likely to keep you from dying than using the resolve point the standard way. It's about active mitigation during an encounter, rather than waiting until a fight ends or until you're dying to draw on your resolve. (Even typing it out that way sounds silly.)

[Telok]

Technomancer has probably the best use for Resolve in the game (Wish.) But even at lower levels, they can use Resolve to:

Finished playing a session tonight. But before I go into that I'd like to say that since I'm actually playing an AP with a real character 20th level theorizing is pretty much meaningless to me. Actually I've come to realize that I usually don't care about the last couple of levels of a class because they never see play in my groups. So for a technomancer you get 5 magic hacks ever, resolve points are the only way to recover stamina between fights, and other than the 30' teleport or maybe one of the 14th level hacks all the ones that require resolve are extremely situational. There are something like four different hacks that result in more spellcasting power which is always useful and available, and they don't cost you what are essentially hit points and death save tokens.

Edit: Also 'metamagic' costs one of your 5 ever picks and takes resolve every time you use it. I'd prefer it as a feat since you get feats every odd level and the core book is kind of running short of feats that I'm interested in for my character.

So our party of four 5th level characters (techno, mystic, two mechanics, they guy playing the envoy couldn't make it today) faced two CR 6ish critters in combat and 20+ skill checks today. We're under WBL since we apparently haven't said the right things to the right NPCs to keep up with money. Verbal pixel clicking isn't our thing, go figure. So we're all in 5th-6th level armor and using 1st level weapons. Thus we all have 20-21 ACs and do a uniform 1d8 or 1d10 +5 damage. Everyone also has 18/19 dex scores and a +3 BaB, so we have +7 or +8 to hit. The critters had +17 and +18 to hit, got automatic surprise both times (one had +32 to stealth, the other just got auto-surprise) and did 1d8+9 damage. One critter had 18 AC while the other had 21 AC, both took 5 rounds of combat to down and did about 60 damage spread across a couple characters each time. This isn't really to bad since we have two drones from the mechanics so we have 6 characters making attacks and the drones are basically free meatshields, they have worse AC and to-hit but given an hour the mechanics can repair them from 0 to full hit points.

The skill checks were evenly split between engineering, computers, perception, and everything else. This seems to be a pattern in the APs, piloting is used in space only, culture and diplomacy make a few appearances with NPCs, and everything but the big three is rolled once a session at most. I suppose if we had an operative we'd see stealth checks sometimes. All DCs seemed to be in the 19 to 28 range, 17s and 18s failed checks while the DM rolled his eyes every time we got a 30+ result. Note that our best skills are at +14s (5 ranks, 3 class skill, 2 class bonus, 4 stat) and if something isn't a class skill with class bonuses and a high stat we tend to top out at about +9.

Also the spell Life Bubble got nerfed. In the past three levels it's negated something like 4 environmental hazards/gas traps, so the DM decided that it now only provides breathable air. Which means that it goes from being really good to getting traded out at next level-up. That will result in my character only having one spell (and one cantrip) that does not appear in my AD&D books. Invisibility has been giving the DM issues too, mostly because we fight a fair number of animals and robots that have no innate counter and can't really out-think it. I'm hoping that it's not next on the chopping block.