My Hero Academia 2: I will endeavor to become a thread you can be proud of

[LaZodiac]

Sympathizing doesn't mean agreement. I get why his dad was messed up, and I get why Shigaraki was messed up.

Neither justifies what they did.

[zimmerwald1915]

Neither justifies what they did.

Potential new thread title?

[LaZodiac]

That said, fantastic chapter. Horikoshi is really bringing out his A-game for this arc. The art has been even better than usual, too.

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I love how Deku's goal isn't "to be the strongest and defeat everyone", but "to be a hero who can save everyone", so his nemesis isn't being setup as "the one who can't be defeated" but as "the one who can't be saved". Can't wait to find out where Horikoshi's going with this.

God, it really is. As good as the Class A vs B fighting was, this was clearly the Actual Arc, with the former being a cool down.

Also yeah, I really like that. I hadn't actually thought about it that way too, it's super cool!

Potential new thread title?

I can see it!

[Ramza00]

Sympathizing doesn't mean agreement. I get why his dad was messed up, and I get why Shigaraki was messed up.

Neither justifies what they did.

My point is the dad is a vestigial character since he is dead, his importance is how he impacts the alive characters. We saw that in this chapter where we see it from the internal 1st person perspective of a 5 year old. We did not get additional pabel scenes giving 3rd person omni prescent narrative context, where the 3rd person narrator knows more and shows the reader more things than Tomura Shigaraki could know, remember, and experience for he was only 5 and only saw part of the various relationships in the house.

Adding more 3rd person abusive dad scenes when he was not abusive is not about the story but is instead about world-building. It is trying to make the readers feel connected to an interpretation that society is just or unjust via using vestigial dead dad as a proxy to is the villian motivations are authentic or not and hsing an outside person to judge authenticity instead of the self-referntial experience of tbe 1st person point of view.

The choice made is purposefully done to create ambiguity and via ambiguity heighten the impact of the scene. Shigaraki must be stopped but he also makes some good points and he is a lense to show the limits of heroic society. Well what do you do with these limits, who makes the choices? Who goes further beyond, plus ultra beyond the limits of society. That is the nature of a hero after all, it is the people who run in a world that is a mixture of just and unjust, heroes who are the people who run into the chaos and ambiguity and deal with the people who are suffering.

I forgot to mention I loved and adorred this chapter this week just like LaZodiac.

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Sidenote i rather see more scenes involving Tsu's backstory giving her comtext than abusive dad doing some normal stuff besides the abuse. Let vestigal dead merely be the hands influencing Shigaraki.

[Cozzer]

The choice made is purposefully done to create ambiguity and via ambiguity heighten the impact of the scene. Shigaraki must be stopped but he also makes some good points and he is a lense to show the limits of heroic society. Well what do you do with these limits, who makes the choices? Who goes further beyond, plus ultra beyond the limits of society. That is the nature of a hero after all, it is the people who run in a world that is a mixture of just and unjust, heroes who are the people who run into the chaos and ambiguity and deal with the people who are suffering.

Ok, this part I understand and agree 100% with. The League of Villains is being set up as a big unsolved question towards hero society, and I love it.

[Kato]

Potential new thread title?

I'd rather prefer something positive, but I'm not sure we'll get something suitable soon... Maybe we can go back a few weeks and pick something Twice said or so..

@Ramza I don't quite understand why you felt the urge to bring race, gender and politics into something that clearly aims at character and story telling, as if the reaction to a one-sided portrayal of an abusive, non-white sister would have been different. (though, I guess they are all Asian, probably, so...)
Putting abuse in your villain's backstory is overused and imo a cheap way to... Garner sympathy? Justify his actions? I'm not really sure what the point is. But at least for me it's not working, no matter who the abuser is. (I feel a rant coming, so I better stop here )

And again, this does in no way mean I dislike MHA but this feels very cliché and I would have preferred it to be done differently. But I feel we maybe will get a different perspective later (?)

[LaZodiac]

We probably will.

Also, another title suggestion; The Only Series Where Friendship Power Goes Both Ways

Given we more or less started this year with Le Brava and Gentle Criminal, and will probably be ending it with the League winning due to love, friendship, and this giant they found, I think it's a valid positive statement that also hints at the underlying themes of the series.

Also it's funny to think of a series like Fairy Tail even vaguely considering doing something like this, and the title evokes that for me.

[Cozzer]

"My Little Villains: Friendship is (Evil) Magic"

[Ramza00]

@Ramza I don't quite understand why you felt the urge to bring race, gender and politics into something that clearly aims at character and story telling, as if the reaction to a one-sided portrayal of an abusive, non-white sister would have been different. (though, I guess they are all Asian, probably, so...)
Putting abuse in your villain's backstory is overused and imo a cheap way to... Garner sympathy? Justify his actions? I'm not really sure what the point is. But at least for me it's not working, no matter who the abuser is. (I feel a rant coming, so I better stop here )

Kato it was your comment that triggered the rant. And your comment was full of politics. If you do not understand your comment was full of politics...well I can not help you.

[Tvtyrant]

This is a pretty predictable backstory honestly.

Dad can't really hate his Mom because she died a hero, so he turns his emotions inward and hates himself.

He identifies his son with himself and so hates his son as he hates himself.

Son internalizes hatred and in hating himself hates everyone.

Freud freud freud freud, Shigaraki has to love himself to be defeated in the end.

[Ramza00]

Freud freud freud freud, Shigaraki has to love himself to be defeated in the end.

Shigaraki also displays classic counterphobia, instead of running away from the fear object, or freezing, he runs toward the stressor in order to eliminate it. To remove the feelings of stress and fear via using action.
(If I recall it is Otto Fenichel who was a 2nd generation psycho-analysis "great" who talked a lot about counterphobia.)

But yeah it was always likely Shigaraki had abuse or another trauma if we read between the lines years ago with previous chapters. I seem to recall Shigaraki calling all might and other heroes trash on multiple occasions.

[Traab]

Shigaraki also displays classic counterphobia, instead of running away from the fear object, or freezing, he runs toward the stressor in order to eliminate it. To remove the feelings of stress and fear via using action.
(If I recall it is Otto Fenichel who was a 2nd generation psycho-analysis "great" who talked a lot about counterphobia.)

But yeah it was always likely Shigaraki had abuse or another trauma if we read between the lines years ago with previous chapters. I seem to recall Shigaraki calling all might and other heroes trash on multiple occasions.

Would that be what he did when he had the bad guy society attack UA and he showed up with that nomu? After all might sent it blasting off team rocket style and then dared them to come at him (because he couldnt move) The goal was to force a retreat, instead shiga charged in an attempt to do something rather than just leave. I mean, lets face it, that attack was a lot of overblown nonsense, it damaged eraserhead pretty bad but... that was about it.

[LaZodiac]

Yeah, exactly.

[Cozzer]

Well, he did survive Re-Destro's big attack because instead of evading or defending, he just... attacked the attack and somehow crumbled part of it with his Quirk. At his best (and worst), Shigaraki fights in a constant kamikzaze mode which is extremely dangerous. Pretty fitting for the guy who's entire existence is about destroying everything, hismself included.

It's kind of anti-character development, in a way. Shigaraki's tendency to just go kamikaze instead of retreating during bad situations was one of his weak points. Instead of correcting it, he just doubles down and becomes even more kamikaze and destructive, and somehow it works because as dangerous that attitude is for Shigaraki himself, it's even more dangerous for everyone else.

[Traab]

Speaking of that fight, I know that after the whole a4o/all might fight, the attack in the woods and such, the parents were understandably pretty upset about the danger their kids were in, but what about after that initial attack where all might beat up nomu? I imagine it turned out fairly well for the school because they got ambushed by dozens of bad guys, no kids got hurt, and the bad guys were routed/arrested in large numbers with the only good casualty being eraserhead who fairly dramatically displayed WHY he is a highly respected teacher/hero. That scenario showed they COULD protect the students. The other times? Not so much lol. I just wondered if there was any parent backlash over that attack as opposed to the later ones.

[LaZodiac]

Speaking of that fight, I know that after the whole a4o/all might fight, the attack in the woods and such, the parents were understandably pretty upset about the danger their kids were in, but what about after that initial attack where all might beat up nomu? I imagine it turned out fairly well for the school because they got ambushed by dozens of bad guys, no kids got hurt, and the bad guys were routed/arrested in large numbers with the only good casualty being eraserhead who fairly dramatically displayed WHY he is a highly respected teacher/hero. That scenario showed they COULD protect the students. The other times? Not so much lol. I just wondered if there was any parent backlash over that attack as opposed to the later ones.

There was no backlash that we're aware of because of the USJ incident. Considering, as said, the only serious injuries were Deku (self inflicted) and Eraserhead (in the line of duty, him vs a literal army of villains) it'd be pretty hard to be mad at the school for this one. I imagine it negatively affected Deku's mom's opinion of the school, but that's understandable.

[Ramza00]

Would that be what he did when he had the bad guy society attack UA and he showed up with that nomu? After all might sent it blasting off team rocket style and then dared them to come at him (because he couldnt move) The goal was to force a retreat, instead shiga charged in an attempt to do something rather than just leave. I mean, lets face it, that attack was a lot of overblown nonsense, it damaged eraserhead pretty bad but... that was about it.

Yes this is counterphobia. But more promient examples of Shigaraki doing CP involve LoV bar scenes. For example Shigaraki meeting Dabi and Toga. He was stressed in that scene qnd instead of identify the stress and containing it, or organizing around it, he just choose to elimate it as an impulse in a very anxiety way. Counterphobia is a defensive mechanism, a habit that is not well thought out but is more impulsive and compulsive.

Note a similar scene happened with Shigaraki and the Hero Killer even though they probably both provoked each other. But even after the conflict and the warp gate teleport Shigaraki is stille stressed and thinking about eliminating the Hero Killer. Since he is not going to kill him now he was going to revel in the 3 nobu destruction.

Also in the USJ attack Shigaraki is phobic when all might attacked and was so fast he knocked off the hands. He was super anxious (like Izuku / Deku) but as soon as the hand was on his face Shigaraki gave one of my favorite of his smiles and he then took a perverse delight for he stated that All Might (is probably) slower than he used to be (contradicting his earlier anxiety thoughts while he felt week and Shigaraki is looking for his father's hand.)

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So understand counterphobia is only one self regulatory strategy and all humans use multiple. Both Izuku and Shigaraki are both the same anxiety related temperament where if you plot out 9 vices (as in the 7 deadly plus Envy , and Fear+Despair+Despondency) then both Izuku and Shigaraki are the Loyal Skeptic archetype where their main vice is fear.

Well the dicference between the two is Izuku gives into the phobia and tries to organize around it with super ego habits and ego plans. Shigaraki gives into his fears and in an id / instinctual action tries to attack the cause of the fear.

Except it is not universal there is a tension in all of us. Izuku gains All Might's quirk for in a counterphobic fashion he ran toward the slude monster and Bakugou trying to save him. This is a quality of a hero but you need to balance out the extremes, with other qualities of a hero, and thus All Might was so happy with Izuku when Deku did the opposite extreme and rescued Bakugou without injury via using a plan even though All Migbt lost his quirk fivhting AfO.

There has been very much a golden mean (Aristotle) thing going on MHA. Learning balancing vices and virtues to balance one quirk instead letting your instincts control you. Like Best Jeanist said "heros and villians are cut from the same cloth" (build from the same materials to Bakugou during the intern arc) so how you build matters, and the academy is not just about making ones quirk strongers but also learning the character of a hero (virtue theory, character is learned over time and space and the golden mean is one of the key parts of virtue theory.)

[Braininthejar2]

ok... shouldn't it be seinen?

[GloatingSwine]

ok... shouldn't it be seinen?

Nah, Jump can get away with a lot more than you’d think.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

New Chapter

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Unsurprising, given what we already know, but no less tragic. Or gruesome. Goodness, is it gruesome to see it play out.

So...I guess his resentment toward heroes is largely due to them not saving him from his home situation. A home situation that was indirectly caused by his paternal grandmother being herself a hero (though I'm not sure if he's making that connection here). Before this I thought it might have been a villain attack or something that killed them, with AFO rescuing him afterward, but now it's a bit more complicated.

I suppose AFO might have somehow given him the decay quirk, but that seems unlikely given AFO's health situation at the time and the question of how AFO would have gained access to the kid. Given the risks involved in handing someone an incompatible quirk, I guess that AFO just happened to get lucky with a tragic event that struck the family of his deceased enemy.

[Ramza00]

About AFO

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New Chapter
I suppose AFO might have somehow given him the decay quirk, but that seems unlikely given AFO's health situation at the time and the question of how AFO would have gained access to the kid. Given the risks involved in handing someone an incompatible quirk, I guess that AFO just happened to get lucky with a tragic event that struck the family of his deceased enemy.

From a storytelling perspective it was always going to be one of two scenarios.

1) AfO manipulating Shigaraki, as an evil mustache twirling villain manipulating his apprentice crafting the perfect tool that is congrous with AfO's will.
2) It was going to be a tragedy for Shigaraki completely unrelated to AfO. AfO later finds Zhigarali and takes advantage of the situation.

In my mind number #2 was always more likely for this specific writter and the story he was telling. I do not understand why everyone expects #1 to happen.

Shigaraki had to have a tragic back story or else he is a mindless machine, an animal that is feral, or the puppet of someone else story.

Going with the tragedy route allows to Shigaraki to be human, multi-faceted and vile simultaneously!

#1 robs Shigaraki of agency, agency that is extinguished like a candle being blown out. #2 grants Shigaraki agency.

I can make a case of #1 being the right way of telling a story in other stories in other subgenres. But those stories would look more like Star Wars with enperor Palpatine, or Gargoyles with David Xanatos. They have different type of villians than AfO who are mastermind thinkers and their flaw is of iccarus (flying too close to the sun and overestimating their own abilities.)

AfO is not a mastermind like those villians his power is all about image and controlling people by building up and tearing down ones inage, ones symbols, ones identiu and ones place in society around identity. His quirk was not just about gaining power but also bestowing gifts onto others and taking things away with him at the center of it all. Very different than Xanatos or Palpatine.

Remember AfO did not want to beat All Might he wanted to humilate him and rip All Mights image and happiness away, he wanted it to hurt, so thus he went for All Mights heart, for image and transformation is why we suffer and sacrifce in the present to achieve ohr endeavors. (We also do so for power, fear, will, and other drives.)

Great new chapter!

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah. I think it’s a better story if AFO was just opportunist. Keeping tabs on his enemy’s family because that’s good villain practice and taking advantage when it all went pear shaped.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I did feel something was...different about AFO and his master plan. Maybe he didn’t even think about a successor and a legacy until he bumped into young Shigaraki. It’s likely he enjoyed the irony though, given the way he taunts All Might.

It just feels odd to think that AFO has fully committed to the mentor role. But it does mirror All Might’s transition into the same position so I guess it could work.

[lord_khaine]

It just feels odd to think that AFO has fully committed to the mentor role. But it does mirror All Might’s transition into the same position so I guess it could work.

Why is that weird?
All Might Permanently crippled him in a rather spectacular fashion.
It seems like he had to make a heir to have his own black torch carried on.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Why is that weird?
All Might Permanently crippled him in a rather spectacular fashion.
It seems like he had to make a heir to have his own black torch carried on.

It makes logical sense. But my plot-twist-sense just can't shake the feeling that AFO secretly plans to break out using Shigaraki's rise as a distraction, or steal Shigaraki's body to un-cripple himself, or some other nefarious plot.

[John Cribati]

All for One had been planning on passing all of his quirks to Shigaraki (he said as much when he mentioned that Best Jeanist's quirk wouldn't be a "good fit"). Stealing Shigaraki's body on top of that would just be. A weird flex.

Like. If he could pass All For One (the Quirk) to a person and then swap bodies with them... Why not do that already? I'm sure he could have put the body swap power in one of those "Little Johnny" Nomu and had the doctor handle that.

[Ramza00]

Why is everyone thinking AfO will betray Shigaraki? Is it because AfO is evil, or because AfO has a superpower tied to accumulation?

I see AfO as a person who may not think of adopting / mentoring a child at first, but once done so it really becomes their thing and he takes special pride with it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ To me AfO will always be constantly delighted by Shigaraki, Shigaraki removes negative pain from AfO's world by his actions, a world that since his injury seems like it is pressing on top of him due to his new bodily limitations.

If AfO wanted a better body, why Shigaraki, and why not another human either with a quirk or quirkless that he can mindswap to and transfer the AfO quirk, if AfO wanted a better body why not a modified human nomu to be the receptacle? The only reason to transfer to Shigaraki would be sentiment, except the sentiment argument goes the other way. Shigaraki in AfO's eyes is a living piece of art, he is AfO's masterpiece, and the fact his masterpiece has animacy and agency is one of the necessary components of Shigaraki being a masterpiece.

In AfO eyes creating a successor that will outlast him, is like a god creating a world, maybe a little smaller in scale but it produces the same delight that some Gods have in creating. At long last AfO's greatest creation is recreating the World, this brings great sublime joy to AfO, even if its vicarious joy / empathetic joy / mudita, it brings him satisfaction.

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So yeah I do not expect Shigaraki to get his body stolen for it would be unnecessary, make no sense, and would only be done from a narrative fashion as some form of evil sith plan like Palpatine doing clone body swapping in that Legends Dark Horse Comic Dark Empire.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Is it everyone? I thought it was just me throwing that possibility out there. But anyway.

After thinking about it some more, I guess it makes the most sense for things to play out as depicted. That everything we've been told, and everything AFO has told us about his intentions is 100% true and genuine. Storywise the attention will most likely fall on the Deku-Shigaraki conflict. Deku is the main character, etc.

I get that we're supposed to take AFO's defeat and incarceration as him being pushed off the stage and giving way to his protege. But AFO is alive, still retains his powers, and his mind. I don't feel the finality of his defeat, unlike All Might, who actually won but was depowered for good in the process.

I'd feel a lot better if he was to be executed for his super crimes or get shanked by Stain, or something. It would even play into his plans, having Shigaraki lose his mentor figure for good. I dunno. Or have it revealed that his injuries are so bad that he can't use his quirks anymore.

But I admit that in hindsight, the body stealing idea wasn't the best I could have come up with.

[Tvtyrant]

Is it everyone? I thought it was just me throwing that possibility out there. But anyway.

After thinking about it some more, I guess it makes the most sense for things to play out as depicted. That everything we've been told, and everything AFO has told us about his intentions is 100% true and genuine. Storywise the attention will most likely fall on the Deku-Shigaraki conflict. Deku is the main character, etc.

I get that we're supposed to take AFO's defeat and incarceration as him being pushed off the stage and giving way to his protege. But AFO is alive, still retains his powers, and his mind. I don't feel the finality of his defeat, unlike All Might, who actually won but was depowered for good in the process.

I'd feel a lot better if he was to be executed for his super crimes or get shanked by Stain, or something. It would even play into his plans, having Shigaraki lose his mentor figure for good. I dunno. Or have it revealed that his injuries are so bad that he can't use his quirks anymore.

But I admit that in hindsight, the body stealing idea wasn't the best I could have come up with.

Personally I think AfO never had a plan until he met shigaraki. He had at east a century to try to conquer the world/japan but didn't. He in fact kept low key enough the public doesn't know he existed. I think he just liked being on top, knocking out rivals and enemies as he ran an underground empire and feeling God-like.

When he was defeated he disappeared, not because he was destroyed but because his ego was injured and his ego is his whole thing. When he met shigaraki he had a way of restoring that feeling of God-like superiority; by making his apprentice world famous and breaking his old enemy. AfO doesn't care about politics, society, or money. He just wants that sense of personal superiority back, how better then by being Xanatos?

[Ramza00]

Is it everyone? I thought it was just me throwing that possibility out there. But anyway.

Not responding to just you, I seen dozens of people keep bringing up this idea, and not just this thread but also other places on the internet.

It seems a common idea, and I do not understand. I am not trying to be negative in judgement against it, I want to understand it from the other perspectives that are not my own, for it just does not make sense to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

With me and serialized story telling link manga, I like knowing the infinite possibilities the story could go, and how each of these are their own thing and they could be good on their own. This is opposite of my main life personality where I am really good at predicting things and reducing options, but that is the power and beauty of stories, you have the freedom of suprises. ^{And now I got that Don Bluth / Burt Reynolds All Dogs Go to Heaven 🎶 Let Me Be Surprised🎶 https://youtu.be/6ApPZWj05U8?t=92 song stuck in my head}

Personally I think AfO never had a plan until he met shigaraki. He had at east a century to try to conquer the world/japan but didn't. He in fact kept low key enough the public doesn't know he existed. I think he just liked being on top, knocking out rivals and enemies as he ran an underground empire and feeling God-like.

When he was defeated he disappeared, not because he was destroyed but because his ego was injured and his ego is his whole thing. When he met shigaraki he had a way of restoring that feeling of God-like superiority; by making his apprentice world famous and breaking his old enemy. AfO doesn't care about politics, society, or money. He just wants that sense of personal superiority back, how better then by being Xanatos?

Nods, both All Might and AfO are more "image based"

Image / Shame based^{All Might and AfO} are more Connection, Bonding, Pride, Image, Authenticity, Approval, Love, Affection.

When these people seek power and prestige it is chasing these values. All humans need these values (and the next two lists I will bring up) but we seek them in different ratios.

Deku and Shigaraki are more Fear based, they seek Security,
Safety, Certainty, Assurance, Validity, Predictability, Opportunity.

Bakugou is more Anger based, and the style of Anger tied to running away from Rejection. He seeks Worth, Dignity, Protection, Integrity, Vitality, Harmony and Congruence^{a specific style of Harmony.}, finally the most important one which is Autonomy.

But note it is not a black or white thing for All Might may be Image Based but he is specifically seeing things outside of himself that he sees as good aspects of a hero in Deku and Bakugou even though they are organized around different principles.

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So I am in agreement with you Tvtyrant AfO sees power as a way of gaining love, affirmation, approval, respect, and so on. He does not crave power for power sake to rule, or manipulate the world as puppet master. AfO was not trying to install government with him as divine ruler saying I am the State. AfO was fine with running a mafia / organized crime branch that had so much influence that he could shift the state on his whim. AfO was fine with being the Godfather. He embodied this image (which is different than internalization and externalization, embodying is repressing the sign of any weakness and trying to puff the positive. To embody image you must repress shame.)

All Might who is also image based wanted to externalize those values I mentioned above, for if the society was embodied with these values in so many structures, objects, etc people will feel safe and the best side of themselves would come out.