Villainous Competition XX​V: No Solicitors!

[Inevitability]

One more dispute!

Rememtagross:

First off, I’m not trying to get more points, on the whole I think for the most part, your judging to be fair, and frankly I’m so far out of medal contention, that this is more to clear a few things up.

Originality:
I took Shadow Template more to fit the theme of a lurking monster, not really for HiPs. That was a side benefit. Since I was going for Ethereal movement, HiPs is kinda useless. Plus the concealment for being in/around all those shadows works to his benefit.

Elegance:
The Dread Necro level was taken after “spying on some other temple folk” as stated in the backstory. The real reason to take the class was simply to gain the access to hide alignment. This stacks with the class ability from FoP, making Narfle that much harder to find in general.

Likewise, Marshal was taken at the end of the build to reflect on his growing stature w/in the Temple complex. He is becoming a leader of sorts, and as such Marshall fits in w/ that concept. Yes the aura is a great bonus, but neither of these should really be elegance penalties as they do function correctly.

Freedom Of Movement:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm
It doesn’t end the grapple, it just prevents me from being grappled, and combining that w/ improved grab means that I don’t suffer the shortcoming of opening myself up to a grapple when I attempt to do so.

We’ll agree to disagree on them summoning themselves, they last an hour, they can’t summon for an hour, but spending 6 seconds to attempt a summon before they disappear isn’t completely out of the realm of possibility, especially when you combine the rune circle for extending summoning as I stated in that section.

Class skills can be reassigned by racial HD w/o regard for entries in the book. I get a certain number of skill points to use wherever I feel like it when the creature is created.

Hide Presence: pretty much the entire entry on the class ability states that it does indeed prevent protection/resistance to specific alignments. When combined w/ Undetectable alignment and the Hide from this on top of that, it means that you are no longer a viable targeted source for any protection/circle/etc from X spells/abilities provided you make your roll.

Save DC’s are CHA based as stated in the first paragraph of Class Features for FoP. 10 + class lvl +CHA modifier. Marshall’s Aura simply doubles the CHA bonus, meaning it increases the DC for all saves vs the FoP’s abilities.

Power:
Graft Flesh is more for the rare times that Narfle isn’t ethereal. Wings to gain flying, as well as the skin graft were the initial thoughts, but as stated, over time, he’ll simply add them all. It’s just an option to add to his flexibility.

Rune Circles: I took that to both use one’s already on the temple grounds, as well as to create new ones. I don’t need other equipment, as all those needs are taken up by the vast array of statues/things that I possess… Likewise, with essentially free money laying around, cost is not an issue for this or the grafts. The rage circle for example means permanent rage as long as I’m in that circle, and likewise my summons are in a permanent rage, and their summons, etc. Nothing says I can’t fly into a rage while in possession of a gargantuan statue either..

[Braininthejar2]

No change.

I wasn't asking for any points changes, just discussing my build after the fact.

which one is that existing fictional character?

Shalltear Bloodfallen, The Bloody Valkirie, guardian of the Great Tomb of Nazarick.

Doesn't do her justice, really, but then again Shalltear had epic levels to work with.

[remetagross]

Originality:
I took Shadow Template more to fit the theme of a lurking monster, not really for HiPs. That was a side benefit. Since I was going for Ethereal movement, HiPs is kinda useless. Plus the concealment for being in/around all those shadows works to his benefit.

Alright then, but the presence of the template wasn't justified in the fluff; Narlfe just happens to be a Shadow Farastu, and that's it. Besides, there's another monster with the Dark template in this comp as well. All in all, I admit this is a little less forced down than what I though. +0.125 in originality.

Elegance:
The Dread Necro level was taken after “spying on some other temple folk” as stated in the backstory. The real reason to take the class was simply to gain the access to hide alignment. This stacks with the class ability from FoP, making Narfle that much harder to find in general.

But the temple folks mentioned here have nothing to do with necromancy themselves, either. Besides, the temple is described as a sort of dumpin ground for relics; it is never stated or hinted at that is has a necromantic purpose. As you yourself readily admit, it is there solely for Hide Alignment, which is rewarded in Power for being a clever trick; but that dip remains dinged in Elegance. No change.

Likewise, Marshal was taken at the end of the build to reflect on his growing stature w/in the Temple complex. He is becoming a leader of sorts, and as such Marshall fits in w/ that concept. Yes the aura is a great bonus, but neither of these should really be elegance penalties as they do function correctly.

I'll give you that, Narfle is described as being promoted as a guardian. But for one, the build of Narfle does not include any leadership abilities, such as social skills, or buffing abilities, apart from the Marshal level. Besides, Narfle is described as terrorizing his fellow guardians, not really leading them up as the fluff of the Marshal class describes. No change.

Freedom Of Movement:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm
It doesn’t end the grapple, it just prevents me from being grappled, and combining that w/ improved grab means that I don’t suffer the shortcoming of opening myself up to a grapple when I attempt to do so.

It does end the grapple. What does it say?

The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

This means you automatically succeed on any grapple check that either prevent the grapple from beginning in the first place ("any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt"), or to brings the grapple to an end ("grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin"). In both cases, the grapple does not take place. And FoM helps with grapples only in those two very specific rolls you make relatively to grapples - not vs grappling in general!Then, if you use improved grab, you engage a grapple with the target. And then, FoM will help you only if you try one of the two rolls that are specifically covered by FoM: escaping the grapple you started yourself. In all other cases, FoM does not cover what happens, and does not help you. No change.

We’ll agree to disagree on them summoning themselves, they last an hour, they can’t summon for an hour, but spending 6 seconds to attempt a summon before they disappear isn’t completely out of the realm of possibility, especially when you combine the rune circle for extending summoning as I stated in that section.

Let's suppose that the duration of the summoning of the Farastus is one round, and that the Fiend Folio specifies that they cannot use their own summoning ability for one round. For all intents and purposes, this is identical to the case where both durations last one hour instead of one round, but I think it makes things clearer.
Round 1, Narfle's turn: starting to summon other Farastus.
Round 2, right before Narfle's turn again: the Farastus appear. They immediately act on Narfle's incoming turn. Since they last for 1 round, they will disappear on round 3, right before Narfle's turn. Since they cannot use their summoning ability for 1 round, they will only be able to start summoning more of their kind when they act on Narfle's turn in round 3.
Round 2, Narfle's turn: the summons do something, which cannot be the use of their own summoning ability.
Round 3, right before Narfle's turn: the summons disappear.
Round 3, Narfle's turn: the summons are now allowed to start summoning more Farastus. However, they have disappeared already.
Can you see my point through that example?

Now, by using a rune circle to extend the summons, you can indeed cleverly bypass that limitation. But you did not mention that in your original build. Besides, one has to remember that the chance of success in only 30%, so even when your aforementioned trick works, you only have a very small chance to keep the chain of summons going. No change.

Class skills can be reassigned by racial HD w/o regard for entries in the book. I get a certain number of skill points to use wherever I feel like it when the creature is created.

Could you source that? What I can find in the SRD on the other hand, and I think is the closest to the situation at hand, is:

"Some templates change how skill points are determined, but this change usually only affects skill points gained after the template is applied. Treat skills listed in the base creature’s description as class skills, as well as any new skills provided by the template."

. I am well aware this is not a perfect application of the rule, hence my demand for a more exact source on the matter. However, this is the rule by which the comp has been playing since I discovered it, unless I'm mistaken. No change until proven otherwise.

Hide Presence: pretty much the entire entry on the class ability states that it does indeed prevent protection/resistance to specific alignments. When combined w/ Undetectable alignment and the Hide from this on top of that, it means that you are no longer a viable targeted source for any protection/circle/etc from X spells/abilities provided you make your roll.

You are entirely correct, and I misread what you said in your description. I thought you were saying that Hide Presence allows Narfle to try and possess a creature under the effect of a Protection from Evil spell (which I argued it does not, since Hide Presence allows Narfle to foil abilities that rely on the alignment or other specific characteristic of their target, and the line "the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature" then adds "This second effect works regardless of alignment.", thus indicating that this one aspect of Protection from Evil is not the kind of ability that can be foiled by Hide Presence), but you were not saying such a thing. My bad. +0.125 in Elegance.

Save DC’s are CHA based as stated in the first paragraph of Class Features for FoP. 10 + class lvl +CHA modifier. Marshall’s Aura simply doubles the CHA bonus, meaning it increases the DC for all saves vs the FoP’s abilities.

Save DCs are indeed Cha-based, this I am not denying. But the problem is that the Marshall's Motivate Charisma aura does not double the Cha bonus, as you put it. The exact effect is different. Let's see what it does:

"Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks."

For those Cha checks and Cha-based skill checks, Motivate Charisma effectively double Narfle's Cha bonus. For all other purposes, the Cha bonus remains the same. A save DC is not a check nor it is a Charisma-based skill check. As such, it is not affected by Motivate Charisma.

Power:
Graft Flesh is more for the rare times that Narfle isn’t ethereal. Wings to gain flying, as well as the skin graft were the initial thoughts, but as stated, over time, he’ll simply add them all. It’s just an option to add to his flexibility.

Alright, but many grafts need some spells to be cast in their creation that Narfle cannot provide. This precludes all but only three grafts: Fiendish Ear, Fiendish Jaw, Long Arm. Once Narfle has grafted these three onto himself he is done with grafting. The wings are not included among the grafts Narfle can produce. As such, these grafts do improve Narfle somewhat, and we'll agree that even at the beginning, the idea was not for Narfle to be a graft-centered villain. But Narfle decidedly does not make an optimal use of the feat. No change.

Rune Circles: I took that to both use one’s already on the temple grounds, as well as to create new ones. I don’t need other equipment, as all those needs are taken up by the vast array of statues/things that I possess… Likewise, with essentially free money laying around, cost is not an issue for this or the grafts. The rage circle for example means permanent rage as long as I’m in that circle, and likewise my summons are in a permanent rage, and their summons, etc. Nothing says I can’t fly into a rage while in possession of a gargantuan statue either..

Well you cannot really say that you need no equipment, since you have all those big statues lying around: you need them, and those are your equipment. Also, on the matter of money, I perfectly realize that in Narfle's planned environment he has access to a basically unlimited amount of money. What you are saying by this statement, is that Narfle has unlimited Wealth By Level. Fine. But for the purpose of this contest, in order to set all villains on an equal footing when it comes to equipment, all villains are considered to all have the same amount of money at each level. That is, they follow the rules for NPC Wealth By Level (here's a link to the relevant amounts.) Else, it would be unfair for villains who have not set up their lair in a place overflowing with money. As such, Narfle is considered to follow the NPC WBL as well, and thus to have a limited amount to spend on equipment each round.
The question of chained summons has been treated already. As for the question of raging inside a huge statue, I agree that Narfle can indeed do that (and it's a nice trick). However, in order for Narfle inside a statue to benefit from the Extended Rage circle for example (or from any other runic circle, for that matter), he would have to stay inside the circle, not moving away from it. This means the PCs can simply flee, or destroy him at range. In practise, Narfle cannot afford to do that. This is why I stated Narfle would most likely keep moving from one possessed object or PC to the next, and ths not benefit that much from a bonus linked to a static position. No change.

---

Shalltear Bloodfallen, The Bloody Valkirie, guardian of the Great Tomb of Nazarick.

Doesn't do her justice, really, but then again Shalltear had epic levels to work with.

Looked it up. Now I get it

[Inevitability]

Narfle's creator has announced that they do not plan on continuing their disputes, in fear of making this round last even longer. They also expressed a desire to contact remetagross by PM after this round is over.

WhamBamSam, is that chart you posted some time ago updated?

[remetagross]

Alright, let's continue this by PM

@Inevitability: it does not include the changes I made to You Shall Not Pass! and Narfle's scoring, but those do not change the ranking anyway.

[remetagross]

Build	daremetodareyou	remetagross	Total	Place
Lorelai G’Elsewhere: Guardian of the Gate	19	17.75	36.75	Gold
Mircea Raviwr	20	16.25	36.25	Silver
Rasharuach	19.25	16.75	36	Bronze
The Ghost of Grobzok the Guardian	17.25	17.75	35	4th
Claws-at-Heart	19.25	15.75	35	4th
The Watcher	18.25	16.5	34.75	6th
Narfle, the Garthog, Anthraxia Temple Guard, Chevalier First Class	18.25	15.5	33.75	7th
K.A.M.	17.75	14	31.75	8th
Slam	18.25	13.25	31.5	9th
Giolt	17.25	13.5	30.75	10th
Sally	16	13.5	29.5	11th
SHARLA THE BLACK ANGEL	16.5	10.75	27.25	12th
You shall not pass ! This way, good sir!	15	8	23	13th

Here we go for the updated table let's wrap this up, I made this round lastlong enough already!

[Inevitability]

The final table, with thanks to remetagross!

Build	Chef	daremetodareyou	remetagross	Total	Place
Lorelai G’Elsewhere: Guardian of the Gate	Venger	19	17.75	36.75	Gold
Mircea Raviwr	SirNMN	20	16.25	36.25	Silver
Rasharuach	White Blade	19.25	16.75	36	Bronze
The Ghost of Grobzok the Guardian	Telonius	17.25	17.75	35	4th
Claws-at-Heart	3SecondCultist	19.25	15.75	35	4th
The Watcher	WhamBamSam	18.25	16.5	34.75	6th
Narfle, the Garthog, Anthraxia Temple Guard, Chevalier First Class	jdizzlean	18.25	15.5	33.75	7th
K.A.M.	Prismcat21	17.75	14	31.75	8th
Slam	Falontani	18.25	13.25	31.5	9th
Giolt	Sejoran	17.25	13.5	30.75	10th
Sally	Prismcat21	16	13.5	29.5	11th
SHARLA THE BLACK ANGEL	Braininthejar2	16.5	10.75	27.25	12th
You shall not pass ! This way, good sir!	GrayDeath	15	8	23	13th

Congratulations to all competitors! Chairing this competition has been a wonderful experience, and I wish you all the best.

[Falontani]

Inevitability since its your last tenure as chair I think you should name an HM.

[Telonius]

Woo, great competition everyone! Thanks to the chair and judges.

[Thurbane]

Congrats to all, especially Venger: and thanks again to our judges.

[Venger]

Congrats to all, especially Venger: and thanks again to our judges.

Thank you. Congratulations to SirNMN and White Blade as well. This was a really fun round.

[3SecondCultist]

Congrats to the winners! I was hoping to break top 3 with Claws, but couldn’t quite get there. Next time!