Stealth Rolls, is this the correct way to handle this encounter?

[xroads]

Tonight I’m running a game and I have a special ambush scenario planned for my players. As they camp in the Aldani Basin in Chult they are going to be ambushed by an old enemy; a green hag they defeated previously (but who had escaped).

I want to make sure I’m doing the stealth checks correctly, but am not sure I have a firm grasp on how it works. Following is what I think should happen. But please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

1. The green hag casts invisibility, rolls stealth, and then slips into the camp.
2. Her roll will be compared against the passive perception of those on watch. Since the hag is invisible, they will have a minus five to their passive.
3. Once in the camp, she'll attempt to slip into the cleric’s tent and steal his holy symbol. The cleric will get to roll perception at disadvantage since he will be asleep.
4. She will then search the camp quietly for the group's map. Each player whose tent she ends up having to visit, gets to roll perception at disadvantage.
5. If some how she manages to get both items without getting caught, she heads back to the swamp. Shortly after her undead allies pop out of the swamp and start firing arrows into the camp. Since no one suspects anything at this point, the villians have got the jump on the heroes.

Did I get this right?

Also on a related note, when tracking an enemy it's an opposed survival (tracking) vs stealth roll, right? I ask because this has come up with this enemy before.

[Unoriginal]

Invisibility does not grant you advantage on Stealth, so thee would be no -5 to their passive Perception.

Also, if the one who's guarding the camp is actively scanning the area and focusing on that for the duration, you could have them do a WIS (Perception) ability check. It's up to you, though, in any case they won't get lower than their passive Perception.

Now, for searching the tents, I would have the Hag do a new Dex (Stealth) check any time she rummages through people's stuff. And have that everyone in the camp can make the Wis(Perception) check, disadvantage for those who are asleep.

As for tracking, well, it's far from a bad ruling. I would say that if they have seen the tracks in the first place, they can follow them until the tracked person's next attempt at hiding the tracks.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Tonight I’m running a game and I have a special ambush scenario planned for my players. As they camp in the Aldani Basin in Chult they are going to be ambushed by an old enemy; a green hag they defeated previously (but who had escaped).

I want to make sure I’m doing the stealth checks correctly, but am not sure I have a firm grasp on how it works. Following is what I think should happen. But please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

1. The green hag casts invisibility, rolls stealth, and then slips into the camp.
2. Her roll will be compared against the passive perception of those on watch. Since the hag is invisible, they will have a minus five to their passive.
3. Once in the camp, she'll attempt to slip into the cleric’s tent and steal his holy symbol. The cleric will get to roll perception at disadvantage since he will be asleep.
4. She will then search the camp quietly for the group's map. Each player whose tent she ends up having to visit, gets to roll perception at disadvantage.
5. If some how she manages to get both items without getting caught, she heads back to the swamp. Shortly after her undead allies pop out of the swamp and start firing arrows into the camp. Since no one suspects anything at this point, the villians have got the jump on the heroes.

Did I get this right?

Also on a related note, when tracking an enemy it's an opposed survival (tracking) vs stealth roll, right? I ask because this has come up with this enemy before.

Generally, invisibility allows you to hide even when you wouldn't be able to otherwise. RAW, it does not impose disadvantage on attempts to perceive you. DISPUTED POINT FLAG: This is a matter of some contention on these boards.

Sleeping people only roll perception at the DM's discretion--if they are unconscious they are "unaware of their surroundings" (which can be interpreted to mean "fails all perception checks").

As a matter of fun, I'd give them a decent chance of detecting the intrusion. An invisible enemy that auto ambushes you after stealing your gear" feels too close to railroading for my taste. Either foreshadow the intrusion (so they can prepare if they want, but without giving away specifics) or give them a decent chance of waking up while its in progress.

[xroads]

Invisibility does not grant you advantage on Stealth, so thee would be no -5 to their passive Perception.

Interesting. Based on what you and PhoenixPhyre is saying, it sounds like the RAI may vary depending on the group. So I may do away with the -5, since I'm not trying to slaughter the players.

As a matter of fun, I'd give them a decent chance of detecting the intrusion. An invisible enemy that auto ambushes you after stealing your gear" feels too close to railroading for my taste. Either foreshadow the intrusion (so they can prepare if they want, but without giving away specifics) or give them a decent chance of waking up while its in progress.

Oh I definitely agree. That's why I planned on letting the sleepers make perception rolls. I want this encounter to be hard, but not deadly.

[MrStabby]

I tend to give disadvantage if you are on only one sense to detect someone, advantage if three or more. So if someone is a druid in bear form they have advantage if the enemy smells at all and no disadvantage if they are invisible.

I would also use the group rules for stealth - a party roll based on the awake characters.

The results may be determined by the roll. A low perception roll reveals nothing. A higher on misplaced the sound outside the campaign. Higher still places it inside the camp. Very high gives the tent/location.

The whole hiding/ stealth rules are a mess. Play what seems right and rewards perceptive players and stealthy players.

[xroads]

As for tracking, well, it's far from a bad ruling. I would say that if they have seen the tracks in the first place, they can follow them until the tracked person's next attempt at hiding the tracks.

Another possibility that just occurred to me would be have an opposed Survival vs Survival check. One is using the skill to track through the brush, while the other is using the wilderness knowledge to hide their tracks.

[xroads]

I tend to give disadvantage if you are on only one sense to detect someone, advantage if three or more. So if someone is a druid in bear form they have advantage if the enemy smells at all and no disadvantage if they are invisible.

Makes sense. Though I'm thinking the hag might leave footprints in the muck. So this would allow the guards to use two senses. Hearing like normal and sight for the footprints.

[MrStabby]

Makes sense. Though I'm thinking the hag might leave footprints in the muck. So this would allow the guards to use two senses. Hearing like normal and sight for the footprints.

I might split this - unless the footprints were being made going past the guards. I would probably ask for a perception check at disadvantage from the guards and then a survival check if they were patrolling and might come across the footprints.

I would make the hag slow whilst stealthy to give guards time to wake people and respond. A single footprint might not be enough to "solve" the encounter but might be enough to tip the party off and make it interesting.

[tieren]

I would also be careful what you have them perceive.

if the guard passes the perception check don't tell him he notices an invisible green hag. Just tell him he hears footsteps and notices a rustling in the grass right next to him.

If it a character waking from their sleep, they see the tent flaps moving if by themselves and the contents of their pack spilling out onto the floor.

Let the encounter develop as they sound the alarm and more characters try to perceive clues or make attacks or whatever. Noticing an invisible enemy like this should be the start of a fun encounter, not the end.

edit:
You should do another perception check for the guards and the undead wave to check for surprise, don't just assume because the hag got away that the party will be surprised.

[Unoriginal]

Personally, I would make the Hag roll to find what she wants in the PCs' stuff.

[xroads]

Personally, I would make the Hag roll to find what she wants in the PCs' stuff.

I thought about that, but I'd rather stream line things a bit. I am however going to have her choose tents at random to find the map, since she has no way of knowing who has it.

[Tanarii]

The Stealth check should only apply when Sentries can hear the Invisible Hag. If she's out of range for hearing (your judgement on how far that is), no check needed. If she's in range, use the Stealth check value. (I use 30ft for possible hearing range, but DM Screen implies an average of 70ft is about right for "normal" noises IIRC.)

I believe if the sentries are distracted, they're supposed to get Disadvantage, or -5 to their Passive. But that may be my house rule. Personally I also use that penalty for bored and zoned out guards all the time. Anyone doing the equivalent of Mapping, Foraging, Navigating, or Tracking doesn't use Passive at all. (see adventuring chapter)

I believe sleep has been clarified to cause the Unconcious Condition in XtgE. When you are unconcious you are unaware of your surroundings. So automatically fail Passive Perception checks to hear the Hag.

If she never gets close enough to hear for anyone who is awake and paying some attention to their surroundings (ie not the equivalent of Mapping, Foraging, etc), then she never needs to use her stealth check value.

Edit: I didn't think about it being possible, but yeah if the sentries might somehow see indications the invisible Hag is there, such as obvious footprints in Mud appearing 10ft away, then she could be perceived that way too. Although IMO that's generally going to be close enough to hear her squelching in the mud.

[ethertwist]

Also on a related note, when tracking an enemy it's an opposed survival (tracking) vs stealth roll, right? I ask because this has come up with this enemy before.

Just on this point, the only way to track a green hag who is invisible is through magic. Per her ability 'Invisible Passage' she leaves no physical evidence that one can track. For this reason, I don't think she would even leave footprints that sentries could see as others have suggested, though she would make noise as normal. You may have known this already but just thought I would point that out.

For other enemies, or for green hags that weren't invisible for some reason, I would probably play it as Stealth vs. Survival or Survival vs. Survival if the enemy was trying to be stealthy and cover their tracks. If not, I would just set a DC for the survival check (i.e. how difficult is it to pick up tracks in the particular terrain).

[Malifice]

The green hag casts invisibility, rolls stealth, and then slips into the camp.
Her roll will be compared against the passive perception of those on watch. Since the hag is invisible, they will have a minus five to their passive.

Invisiblity doesnt impose a penalty to passive perception. It just enables the Stealth check in situations where the Hag would normally be seen (like sneaking into the camp past a guard, and walking about the undetected).

Remember, this is the jungle. Even minor movement leaves footprints, makes a hell of a lot of noise, and pushes back foliage etc.

That said, the Hag does have this trait:

Invisible Passage: The hag magically turns Invisible until she attacks or casts a spell, or until her Concentration ends (as if concentrating on a spell). While Invisible, she leaves no physical evidence of her passage, so she can be tracked only by magic. Any Equipment she wears or carries is Invisible with her.

This trait plus her mimicry trait means I would personally grant her advantage on Stealth checks while invisible in the jungle (and invisible). She is leaving no physical signs of her passage.

Also; you should only really be applying her Stealth check result to the Passive Perception of those on watch (and not sleeping PCs).

Sleeping PCs are unconscious, and creatures with the unconscious condition are unaware of their environment (see the condition). They can detect a whisper within 10' if they have a passive perception score of 20+ (see XGtE) and they can detect someone talking nearby if their passive perception is 15+ (and there is no background noise like birdsong etc, which there most certainly would be in the jungle).

Someone sneaking around nearby and they autofail noticing them.

To be fair to them you could allow sleeping PCs to apply passive perception at -5 (disadvantage) to detect the Hag.

[*]Once in the camp, she'll attempt to slip into the cleric’s tent and steal his holy symbol. The cleric will get to roll perception at disadvantage since he will be asleep.

Nope. He doesnt get to roll at all. If he is allowed to detect the Hag (your discretion) he only gets his passive perception (likely at -5 for disadvantage).

He's unconscious. An unconscious creature is unaware of his surroundings. He cant make perception checks.

See above; he needs a passive perception of 20+ to hear a whisper within 20' and a passive perception of 15+ to hear someone talking (and only if the background noise is otherwise non existent).

She will then search the camp quietly for the group's map. Each player whose tent she ends up having to visit, gets to roll perception at disadvantage.

Nope - see above. No-one gets to roll (other than the Hag).

Technically the only person that gets to apply Passive perception to notice the Hag is the PC on watch.

If some how she manages to get both items without getting caught, she heads back to the swamp. Shortly after her undead allies pop out of the swamp and start firing arrows into the camp. Since no one suspects anything at this point, the villians have got the jump on the heroes.

The PC on watch gets to apply his passive perception to the Undeads Stealth check result. If he succeeds he avoids being surprised, and (at your discretion) may also have time to wake the other PCs to avoid them suffering a similar fate.
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How I run it:

IMG I prefer to set a monsters Stealth check result at [15+Stealth] and use this as the DC for sleeping players to hear or notice them. Awake players get to check against DC 10+monsters Stealth. Its always better to have the players roll rather than the other way around (unless you want to keep the results totally secret from the players). Its Passive Stealth (factoring in advantage as against sleeping players with the higher DC) instead of Passive perception.

Applying this rule, to notice the Green Hag, it would be a simple Perception check from each PC to notice the Hag. DC 18 (at disadvantage) for sleeping PCs, and DC 13 (at disadvantage) for the PC on watch.

Check for each PC one at a time. The PC on watch first, then each PC in order, as she sneaks into their tent and steals their stuff.

[Malifice]

Just on this point, the only way to track a green hag who is invisible is through magic. Per her ability 'Invisible Passage' she leaves no physical evidence that one can track. For this reason, I don't think she would even leave footprints that sentries could see as others have suggested, though she would make noise as normal. You may have known this already but just thought I would point that out.

For this reason, (plus her mimicry trait which would also come in handy for stealth reasons) I would happily give her advantage to stealth checks while invisible.

[xroads]

For anyone interested, here are the results from last night's session.

As the hag entered the camp, she was detected. She rolled really bad on her stealth (I completely missed the Invisible Passage ability of hers). And one of the guards on duty had the Observant feat. So it was no contest.


The guard was able to shout out an alert and then combat ensued. In the end, the heroes were victorious, though it was a tough fight and they almost lost the monk.

And they managed to kill the hag this time, so no more reoccurring villain.

[Azgeroth]

just as note to any future readers, its stealth up until you/they are taking or interacting with an item, which is slieght of hand, not stealth (entering the tent is still stealth, unless its somehow sealed.)

[Tanarii]

For anyone interested, here are the results from last night's session.

As the hag entered the camp, she was detected. She rolled really bad on her stealth (I completely missed the Invisible Passage ability of hers). And one of the guards on duty had the Observant feat. So it was no contest.


The guard was able to shout out an alert and then combat ensued.

So the Hag moved close enough to a Guard they heard something due to a poor roll, the guard shouted an alarm because it heard a noise, and ... combat ensued?

Is this a summary skipping things like "Guard investigates noise, Hag make a Hide check to try and disappear". Although "Hag slaughters NPC before it can make a noise, body of Guard is found in morning" is another likely outcome.

Also, Guards don't have the Observant Feat. Is this a home brew NPC?

Edit: I just realize that the guards on watch were probably PCs. /facepalm and . This makes much more sense now.

[Throne12]

A word of advice. In my Experience players get mad and upset with the DM have A monster come into camp and steal things or try and kill a party member. With out them knowing. So one way I've made this pill easier to take. Is by narrating the creature cast it spell then what is doing in the camp. For this encounter I would narrate it like this.



We come in on a shoot of player1 and player2 sitting around the camp fire. Player1 has pulled out his oil and rags and is cleaning his weapons then Reapplying oil to keep them from rusting. He reaches over to grab a another weapon. As the shoot pans over to player2. Player2 is Staring intently into the dark Beyond the reach of the camp fire. She hears a snap of a twig to her left and she shoots her head it the Direction of the sound. Squinting her eyes trying to see in the dark. After a full 30 seconds of not seeing or hearing anything she lifts up a cracker to her mouth and takes a bit. The Continuing her Ever a vigilant watch. We get a blurred motions as the view clears we get a quick Glimpse of a humanoid figure Vanish to a Shimmering figure. We can see the light of the camp peaking throught the leafs. We follow the the shimmering figure as it heads towards the light of the camp. I then would keep narrating what the figuer was doing in the camp. Afterwards i remind my player to not meta game the Knowledge that a creature was just in there camp.


Most people don't like the unknown and hate being taken by surprise. Surprising players with things is one of the biggest complaint players point to when they say a DM is a bad DM. So with this they know out of character something happen but they still don't know what the creature is and they won't be upset when the arrows come flying out of the bushes. I know some people hate meta gaming but you can't play with out having some meta gaming coming in on the DM part and the player part.

[Tanarii]

Surprising players with things is one of the biggest complaint players point to when they say a DM is a bad DM.

Any player prepared to use the label "bad DM" isn't a player a DM wants at their table in the first place. That term says far more about the person saying it than the DM they're labeling with it.

[Throne12]

Any player prepared to use the label "bad DM" isn't a player a DM wants at their table in the first place. That term says far more about the person saying it than the DM they're labeling with it.

How many players that told you they were fine with you not telling them anything and you just take there stuff. The rogue walks buy you roll for a Sleight of hands check Against there passive Perception and steal there gold, spellbook, spellcasting focus, ect. And they not say something about it.