Player doesn't want to take ANY metamagics. Halp!

[Arkhios]

A player in our group chose to play a sorcerer because a sorcerer can get most out of Magic Missiles, being able to convert sorcery points to more spell slots = more magic missiles.

However, every time we've tried to convince the player to choose their metamagics, the player insurgently refuses to choose any. What would you suggest as an alternative solution?

The player doesn't use sorcery points for anything other than creating more spell slots, so would it be reasonable to simply spread out those points to automatically create more spell slots, permanently, so that the player didn't have to choose what to do with those points?

Just to be clear:

No, her playstyle isn't hurting our group. It's not about that. And, I suppose I'm rephrasing a bit what I said earlier, but I wouldn't exactly say "I don't like that she refuses to choose X."

I'm worried that she's afraid to learn the rules entirely. As if the amount of details in the rulebook were somewhat intimidating to her.
She likes who her character is. She took a good while to come up with a background story for the character. But when it comes to taking a closer look into what else her character could do, something seems to be pushing her back. It's not that she didn't like D&D; in fact, she greatly prefers 5th edition to the only other similar game she's played before: Pathfinder. She is new to the hobby, but not that new. By the way, if it wasn't self-evident yet, she is my girlfriend/fiancé/soon-to-be-wife, so please, try to understand why I'm not so keen about trying to thrust a wedge between us by forcing her to leave the game - especially because she likes the game, despite some of its unpleasant sides.

We started playing 5th edition at the same time, and our first impression of 5th edition was that it would be easier to learn than Pathfinder, and I guess she convinced herself that 5th edition would be much less complicated than it actually is. And to be honest, she's not completely wrong. 5th edition is a lot less complicated than Pathfinder, but I guess she wanted to think that 5th edition was even less complex.

The difference between us is that I have played the game and its earlier editions for about 16 years - over three times as long as she has. I already know what to expect from D&D and its clones. Her experience is much less comprehensive, and I guess that's part of the reason why trying to learn the rules feels like such a big bogeyman to her.

The reason I started this thread was to find means to encourage her to invest more to the game so that she could find the courage to learn more on her own. I've found that Metamagic and the rest are just too much for her to handle with her limited experience and the amount of energy she is able invest due to her mentally strenuous job. I understand why she's not able to commit herself to the hobby as much as I am. I'm only trying to find ways to make it easier for her. I know that I said our DM is a stickler for RAW, but he's not an imbecile. He can be reasoned with, which is why I'm sort of trying to build a case to convince him if there was a plausible solution.

[JakOfAllTirades]

At some point the guy's just gonna have to figure how his class works and play the friggin' game.

I'd suggest the DM throws an enemy Sorcerer or two at the group and demonstrate the proper use of metamagic, in living color, just for him.

And make it hurt.

[Arkhios]

At some point the guy's just gonna have to figure how his class works and play the friggin' game.

I'd suggest the DM throws an enemy Sorcerer or two at the group and demonstrate the proper use of metamagic, in living color, just for him.

And make it hurt.

FWIW, the player is a she. And more of a casual player at that. Her defense has been that we play too infrequently that she can't remember everything her character can do. All she really wanted from her character was to be able to spam magic missiles all day everyday and keep it simple otherwise. Our DM suggested sorcerer and at the time it felt the best solution. Now, I'm not so sure. I've begun to wonder if wizard (evoker or transmuter) would've actually been even more simple.

Plus I don't think putting pressure on purpose is going to do any good on this issue. At worst, she'll just quit the game. And we don't want that.

[hymer]

As far as I can tell, there isn't a problem yet. It's when the player starts complaining that the character is underperforming you get a problem. Unless this is gimping the PC so badly, the DM has to account for it?

So my suggestion is Mother Mary's words of wisdom: Let it be.

[Ninja_Prawn]

You might have been better off suggesting warlock. They can spam magic lasers all day for real, and there are plenty of invocations that are wholly passive so she wouldn't have to remember them. Is it to late to rebuild the character?

[Arkhios]

You might have been better off suggesting warlock. They can spam magic lasers all day for real, and there are plenty of invocations that are wholly passive so she wouldn't have to remember them. Is it to late to rebuild the character?

Warlock was suggested, but since a Warlock doesn't get Magic Missile, it was turned down.

And it's too late to rebuild.

Plus, the DM is a stickler for following RAW and refuses to house rule Magic Missile as a warlock spell.

[LeonBH]

The player doesnt have to use the metamagics, even if she chose them. If she's completely expending her Sorcery Points for more magic missiles, that's still the class working as designed. No need to change anything here.

[Unoriginal]

A player in our group chose to play a sorcerer because a sorcerer can get most out of Magic Missiles, being able to convert sorcery points to more spell slots = more magic missiles.

However, every time we've tried to convince the player to choose their metamagics, the player insurgently refuses to choose any. What would you suggest as an alternative solution?

The player doesn't use sorcery points for anything other than creating more spell slots, so would it be reasonable to simply spread out those points to automatically create more spell slots, permanently, so that the player didn't have to choose what to do with those points?

Just shrug, and let the player waste her character's class features.

Her defense has been that we play too infrequently that she can't remember everything her character can do. All she really wanted from her character was to be able to spam magic missiles all day everyday and keep it simple otherwise. at.

If that Sorcerer's main thing is just to spam magic missile, they're not concerned with being efficient already. Just let the player play, if you want to play with her.

At worse, just tell her to choose the metamagics at random and to never use them.

Or have the DM convince her to write down the few metamagics she's allowed to have on her sheet, and she can ignore them.

[Arkhios]

Just shrug, and let the player waste her character's class features.




If that Sorcerer's main thing is just to spam magic missile, they're not concerned with being efficient already. Just let the player play, if you want to play with her.

At worse, just tell her to choose the metamagics at random and to never use them.

Or have the DM convince her to write down the few metamagics she's allowed to have on her sheet, and she can ignore them.

Well, to be fair, we have managed to convince her to take and use a few other spells (e.g. Thunderwave and Lightning Bolt) as well, though she's reluctant to choose any more spells every time we level up, and it feels contrived to choose even one spell more. Her words were somewhat like this: "I'd prefer to just get more magic missiles".

I must say, 3.5 Sorcerer might have been right up her alley. Very limited amount of spells known, and a crap load of spell slots to spam Magic Missiles all day. And absolutely no other class features beyond 1st level.

[ImproperJustice]

She is a new player. She sounds like she may have a casual level of investment in the game.
It sounds like she likes being able to spam magic missiles.

What is the end goal?
Force her to use abilities outside of her comfort zone and punish her if she fails to do so until she “sees the light” and becomes a true gamer?

Or do you modify the rules and work with her like a fellow adult to make the role-playing experience enjoyable so that she can gain a love of the hobby and be patient so as time goes by she will eventually branch into other things?

My advice?
Back in 3.5 there was a little pdf that was like $1 on drive through that called #1 with a bullet point and they had “7 feats for magic missile”.

Let her take one of those as a meta magic and modify it to work with magic missile. Get her a couple wands of magic missile. Let her become the greatest magic missiler of all time, and for Heaven’s sake let her have fun.

Trust me. Our game group has grown over the years by working with “young players” to grow into the hobby by letting them play their character concepts as they see fit. And ultimately what is role playing if not the culmination of wish fulfillment through collective story telling?

[JackPhoenix]

Distant spell allows her to shoot Magic Missile further
Empower spell allows her to make her Magic Missile stronger (and given how MM damage works, it allows for a sorcerer with dumped Cha).
Quickened spell allows her to cast Magic Missile and do something else, cantrip or anything else that would use her action
Subtle spell allows her to cast Magic Missile even in the area of Silence, while being tied up, or in other detrimental circumstances.

[Unoriginal]

She is a new player. She sounds like she may have a casual level of investment in the game.
It sounds like she likes being able to spam magic missiles.

What is the end goal?
Force her to use abilities outside of her comfort zone and punish her if she fails to do so until she “sees the light” and becomes a true gamer?

Or do you modify the rules and work with her like a fellow adult to make the role-playing experience enjoyable so that she can gain a love of the hobby and be patient so as time goes by she will eventually branch into other things?

My advice?
Back in 3.5 there was a little pdf that was like $1 on drive through that called #1 with a bullet point and they had “7 feats for magic missile”.

Let her take one of those as a meta magic and modify it to work with magic missile. Get her a couple wands of magic missile. Let her become the greatest magic missiler of all time, and for Heaven’s sake let her have fun.

Trust me. Our game group has grown over the years by working with “young players” to grow into the hobby by letting them play their character concepts as they see fit. And ultimately what is role playing if not the culmination of wish fulfillment through collective story telling?

Or they could just let her do what she's doing right now, just with metamagics she's not going to use written on her sheet.

If she doesn't want to invest more time or decisions into the game, it's fine, but it shouldn't be up to others to invest the time and decisions for her.

If she was a new player who was confused about the game's rules, or not sure what to do with her PC, it'd be different.


OP, did anyone point out to her that Distant Spell and Empowered Spell can make her Magic Missiles better?

[Specter]

Find something neat and permanent that applies to all spells and give it to her, like a fighting style. You can even create a few options and let him choose. Examples:

- The save DC for your damage spells increases by 1
- Anyone dispelling or counterspelling your spells hss didadvantage on the roll
- Every 1 rolled on spell damage dice becomes a 2

Etc.

[Lombra]

Why do you care? Let she play how she wants to play? Spamming Magic Missile is not optimal but it's consistent, if she hs fun being an arcane machine-gun, let her be. At best you may talk her in picking quicken for MORE MAGIC MISSILES but it's not really the end of the world, she's gonna save the party vs those displacer beasts.

[Naanomi]

If you ever get to high levels, it will be a big shame not to have Spell Mastery for this concept

[MrStabby]

Is she having fun? Could she have more fun? If you were to enable her to have more fun would it detract from the rest of the party?

Does she use out of combat spells? If in the more relaxed out of combat atmosphere is she happy to step away from magic missiles?

If she is happy and if improvements won't make her happier, then do nothing. If improvements might make her happier then homebrew something - even something as simple as a force version of elemental affininty or the warlock repelling blast feature applied could work.

If the PC is only using spell slots for magic missiles then there is actually very little downside to multiclassing to another caster. If she won't use the new spells learned then she can pick the features she wants. Warlock might work well if only to generate masses of magic missile fuel on a short rest.

[Throne12]

Just let her be. Would you like it if some was try and try to get to play or something you don't want to. If you want her to stay with the group. Let her play what she wants and learn when to make a suggestion and when to keep your opinions to yourself.

If she is turning her sp into spell slots then she has no sp to use in meta magic to began with.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It sounds like she wants something like the 3.5 Warlock, where she has one schtick (Magic Missile!) all day long. It would be easy enough to build a custom class around that*, but since you said the DM is a RAW-stickler, that's probably not an option... I'd say suggest Quicken Spell (shoot more missiles at once!), Empower Spell (shoot stronger missiles!), with Distant Spell (sniper missiles!) and Subtle Spell (invisible missiles) as later picks. Explain the effects in terms of Magic Missile.

*Start a little weaker than the base spell, since it's at-will, then scale up automatically, and throw in some Repelling Blast-like rider effects you can apply-- add knockback, elemental effects, that sort of thing. Maybe have them be limited use, so you can up their power a bit.

[LeonBH]

The best I can think of for her is to grant her a Wand of Magic Missiles. Let her have her fun with it (and if she dies, let it happen, too). It's all part of the game.

[X3r4ph]

Funny that your DM is a stickler for rules but you suggest home brewing to find a solution. :)

Anyways. I see a couple of home brew solutions.

1. Remove metamagic. Add an extra sorcery point every second level.

2. Remove metamagic and sorcery points and give her one extra spell slot per level.

3. Remove metamagic and sorcery points and let her cast magic missile at will. Spell level equal to highest spell slot known. Because capping at 9d4+9 every round is pretty terrible damage anyways.

[BW022]

I don't see a problem here. If the player doesn't want to select or use meta-magic ... why try and force it? Just let them play without it.

Lots of players don't bother with certain abilities -- whether because they don't care about optimizing, it doesn't fit their roleplaying/character concept, they just aren't that good of players, abilities slow down combat, etc. There is no real harm in doing so. I've seen players select far more 'unoptimal' things on their characters -- disabilities, inability to cast spells, vows to never start a fight, etc.

IMO, its more of an issue in you trying to force players to play they way you want. That leads to resentment between players. This is doubly true with new players who you should never allow other players to influence their character choices unless the player specifically asks. There is no reason you should care about a minor choice such as this. It really won't significantly affect what the character/player can contribute to the party. Using sorcerer points solely for extra spell slots is perfectly fine.

Just let the player play their character the way they wish. If they don't wish to select or use meta-magic... fine. I wouldn't try to give them anything in place of meta-magic nor would I change the rules to automatically give them more spell slots. Let them use the current rules and let them use the sorcerer point system to lose and/or gain spell slots.

[LordEntrails]

Like others have tried to imply, the only problem at the table is you. You and any other players that want to make her min/max.

Let it go and have fun.

[Eloel]

Keep throwing level-appropriate encounters - don't go soft because they're ineffective, the world is rarely so thoughtful. Maybe throw an encounter where there are as many (appropriate-level) enemies as players, each singling out one PC. Let her see how useless her character is compared to everyone else. Let her feel the need to pull her weight, because if she goes down or escapes, someone will have 2 on them! If her character dies in the process, well, too bad. If she doesn't, no real need to change anything.

[JackPhoenix]

It sounds like she wants something like the 3.5 Warlock, where she has one schtick (Magic Missile!) all day long. It would be easy enough to build a custom class around that*, but since you said the DM is a RAW-stickler, that's probably not an option... I'd say suggest Quicken Spell (shoot more missiles at once!), Empower Spell (shoot stronger missiles!), with Distant Spell (sniper missiles!) and Subtle Spell (invisible missiles) as later picks. Explain the effects in terms of Magic Missile.

*Start a little weaker than the base spell, since it's at-will, then scale up automatically, and throw in some Repelling Blast-like rider effects you can apply-- add knockback, elemental effects, that sort of thing. Maybe have them be limited use, so you can up their power a bit.

Subtle makes casting undetectable, not the missiles themselves. And Quicken wouldn't allow more missiles at once, as you can't cast leveled spell with action if you cast anything with BA.

As for custom class... I think turning Magic Missile into cantrip (1 missile only, gets more as with normal cantrip scaling) could work if you make it work with EB-improving invocations. Lower damage is compensated with no chance to miss. Maaaybe even bump damage die from 1d4 to 1d6, but that may be a bit much.... 1d4+1 gets the same average as 1d6, 1d6+1 would be like 1d8 cantrip with autohit... not much on its own, but if you put warlock invocations and metamagic on top...

And I now know what I'll suggest for one of my players who can't roll over 10 when it matters.

[rbstr]

Yup. There's no problem here at all. Let her do nothing but cast magic missile if she wants. You don't need to do any accommodating or forcing or changing anything at all. She's using her sorcery points it's not like shes completely wasting her resources, even if the concept is non-"optimal".

I guess I'd suggest that she take empower so her magic missiles can hurt (a liiiiiiitttttle bit) more and distant so she can shoot them super far.
But honestly just casting more magic missile could be better than either of those options anyway.

[LVOD]

I agree with everyone: just let her be. She wont enjoy being forced to do something she doesn’t want to, and you’ll annoy yourselves trying to make her.

That said, i totally get it. This type of player in ANY game always infuriates me for some reason. I may be reading between the lines a bit, but it sounds like she’s too lazy to actually play the game. Magic missle is a lazy spell. Auto hit, roll for damage, no modifiers. If she wont even choose new spells and metamagics at each level, and complains that there’s too much to remember, its because she’s a lazy player. Its like playing smash bros with people who only grapple.

She’s never really going to enjoy herself, but thats not something you should worry about. Its sad, but just let her be. Enjoy yourself and let her be the spectator she basically is.

[ImproperJustice]

Or they could just let her do what she's doing right now, just with metamagics she's not going to use written on her sheet.

If she doesn't want to invest more time or decisions into the game, it's fine, but it shouldn't be up to others to invest the time and decisions for her.

If she was a new player who was confused about the game's rules, or not sure what to do with her PC, it'd be different.


OP, did anyone point out to her that Distant Spell and Empowered Spell can make her Magic Missiles better?

Some people are more willing to be helpful than others I guess?
I don’t mind doing a little work to help another player glean more enjoyment for their PC.
Especially if it will help then become a regular party of the hobby. New players make the hobby better for everyone.

It also sounds like she is aware of what meta magic does, but she would rather spend her points on loading magic missile slots.
Since she is really sold on the idea, why not even come up with a few unique meta magics?

Although I think she would still rather just magic missile things.
I may need to tray and run a Magic Missile battery myself in a one shot. It could be fun.

[Vorpalchicken]

I think subtle spell would be fun. Who just cast those magic missiles?? Who ever could it be?

As for those suggesting quicken, it won't allow more missiles, just a cantrip which she likely will refuse to cast.

[Unoriginal]

Some people are more willing to be helpful than others I guess?
I don’t mind doing a little work to help another player glean more enjoyment for their PC.

It's not a question of "some people [being] more willing to be helpful than others". If the player wanted help, I would try to provide it.

She does not want help, from what OP has said. She doesn't need help, either. She has the character she wants, and that's just it.

Especially if it will help then become a regular party of the hobby. New players make the hobby better for everyone.

Far more often than not, modifying the game so that a person will be more willing to play works as long as the modification is applied, from what I've experienced. Because they don't like the game, only the modified version that fit their tastes.

It also sounds like she is aware of what meta magic does, but she would rather spend her points on loading magic missile slots.

And there is nothing about this that requires a change, ultimately.

Since she is really sold on the idea, why not even come up with a few unique meta magics?

Because even if making the game fun for the players (DM included) is important, even the most important thing about RPGs, neither the game nor the lore nor the DM have to bend to accommodate everything.

Some players would enjoy having tons of magic items. If it doesn't suit the world/game/DM, it's up to the DM to tell them so.

Other players want super extra powers that let them turn into dragons or mind control a cult or the like. If it doesn't suit the world/game/DM, it's up to the DM to tell them so.

The player OP talked about does not want that. She just wants her Sorcerer to cast Magic Missile, and that's it. But OP's DM isn't keen at changing the rules from the book.

Ergo, the situation is not a problem. Just let the player do what she wants, and let the DM arbiters for PCs who are built following the books.

[clash]

I would suggest just picking subtle or empowered spell and getting rid of the sorcery points and just letting them apply to every magic missle cast