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2018-02-11, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Hello all!
I am kinda new to the site and been doing my best to look around for proper info on the subject of Power Attack + Leap Attack. My fighter is about to hit level 7 to be able to use this combo with shock trooper. ( i am just now getting around to doing this ) I know this has been around for some time now and been discussed. What i am hoping here, is for someone to help me with sited rules. What i am hoping to find out is the rules in the 3.5 books AND the new rules ( if any ) when it comes to the errata. Having both would help me present proper rules and regs on this combo and options.
My question is when using a Two handed weapon with power attack is 1 for 2, So if i where to use 7 points at level 7 i would have 14 points? If this is correct do i then triple that with leap attack making it making it 42?
I am being told that it does not work this due to the fact that power attack is being doubled by a two handed weapon, then tripled by leap attack. At his point i cam getting a bit confused even when i read pages 134 and 304 of the PHB.
I thought you only did the double+triple = quad type thing ONLY if the items used did double damage. ( the example given in the PHB )
Simple answers are welcome with sited pages or web pages. If this question is asked some where else could a link be given to me so i may read up on the rules.
Thank you in advance!
MythrilLast edited by Mythril; 2018-02-11 at 10:50 PM.
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2018-02-11, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Originally Posted by Complete Adventurer Errata
If your normal Power Attack bonus is +2 damage for every point of Base Attack Bonus sacrificed, it becomes 4 damage.
Edit: For 1-handers only it looks likeLast edited by PrismCat21; 2018-02-12 at 07:55 AM.
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2018-02-11, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Correction, the erratum only modifies what happens in case of using a one-handed weapon in one hand. The following sentence about what to do with two-handed weapons1 is neither removed nor modified. So power attack damage when using a two-handed weapon is still tripled.
The erratum however has no impact on the combination of power attack and leap attack, because using a two-handed weapon does not multiply the damage from power attack you would get with a one-handed weapon, it simply gives you a different AB to damage conversion. So you only have one multiplier.
It only becomes relevant once you add other multipliers, because you already have one (the tripling) when using a two-handed weapon and you do not when using a one-handed weapon in one hand.
_____
1: for brevity's sake I left out the option of using a one-handed weapon with two hands, consider that included.
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2018-02-11, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
The errata only changes the second sentence of Leap Attack.
It doesn't erase or modify the third:
If you use this tactic with a two-handed
weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power
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2018-02-12, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Okay, my bad. Anyone else want to give him the numbers then to make sure he's got it right?
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2018-02-12, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Power Attack with two-handed weapon: +2 damage per -1 (up to BAB)
Power Attack with two-handed weapon and Leap Attack: +2*3 = 6 per -1 (up to BAB)
A critical hit does not use weird math either, because it does not multiply the power attack damage (alone) but the entire damage (except extra damage dice), so this again is the first multiplication of the "entire" damage.
Example: A critical hit from a +1 flaming greatsword on a leap attack attack with a -2 from power attack on a character with +4 STR bonus:
4d6 that's how you are supposed to multiply the normal damage dice
+ (
6 1.5 * STR bonus
+ 1 enhancement bonus from the weapon+
-(-2) AB penalty from Power Attack * 3 multiplier from Leap Attack
)*2 crit multiplier
+1d6 fire damage (not multiplied)
= 4d6 + 26 +1d6 fire
[Edit]I forgot the 1.5 * STR bonus for wielding a two-handed weapon[/Edit]Last edited by Andezzar; 2018-02-12 at 11:03 AM.
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2018-02-12, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Leap Attack is not a very well-worded feat, but I think the Intention is clear enough that the damage Bonus from Power Attack with Leap Attack is trippled INSTEAD OF being doubled for being a two-handed weapon. Not an ADDITIONAL Multiplier of 3.
Tonymitsu has already posted the correct calculation.
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2018-02-12, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
You use additive multipliers (or the wacky D&D multiplication rule) whenever you are applying two or more multipliers to an abstract value, such as damage. It doesn't matter if the multiplier is a "double" or a "triple", you add them up as per the PHB: (n2) x (n2) = n3, (n2) x (n3) = n4, etc.
If the value you are multiplying is a real-world value, such as distance, weight, etc., then you use standard multiplication rules.
Two-handed Power Attack normally doubles the value of your attack penalty as a damage modifier. Leap Attack *replaces* that x2 with a x3, so there's no additive multipliers involved (yet). As has been noted, the pointlessly confusing errata for Leap Attack didn't actually change how two-handed Leap Attack works.
If you have additional damage multipliers, such as charging with a lance, a Valorous weapon, Decisive Strike, Headlong Rush, etc., then things get a bit kooky, as different portions of your damage bonus are getting different multipliers. For example, let's assume we have 18 Str, PA, Leap Attack, a two-handed Valorous Greataxe +2, and are charging + leaping with a -6 PA penalty. Your damage could be calculated as:
1d12 + 4 (enhancement bonus x2) + 10 (Str bonus x 2.5) + 24 (-6 PA x 4) = 1d12 + 38
Unfortunately, there are still some ambiguous areas in the rules, such as how your Str modifier is multiplied. Some people don't consider "you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus" (PHB p. 134) to be multiplication, rather it's "setting a fixed value" (although how exactly you do that without multiplying is beyond my understanding of the principles of logical reasoning). Assuming you do consider x1.5 Str bonus to be multiplying the Str bonus, then it's not clear how fractional or decimal multipliers should be added. I'm assuming (n1.5) x (n2) = n2.5, but the rules don't really specify if that's how you handle the Str bonus.
The crux of the matter is this: the multiplication rules for damage are NEEDLESSLY COMPLICATED, and they don't NEED to be that way. The game will work just as well if you come up with a simpler house rule to handle all the various interactions of Power Attack, Leap Attack, and other multipliers. Talk it over with your group, decide what works best for you, and keep the flow of the game moving.Last edited by Darrin; 2018-02-12 at 08:59 AM.
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2018-02-12, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-02-12, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
I don't quite agree. First of all none of us have an insight into what the writers' intentions were so we are just guessing.
Secondly Tonymitsu's calculation is wrong by RAW. The last sentence says that you triple the damage from power attack when wielding a two-handed weapon. It does not say that you triple the damage you would have were you wielding a one-handed weapon. As such the damage to use in the tripling is +2 per -1, not +1 per -1. So the resulting damage is +2*3 per -1.
Thirdly what you and tonymitsu are proposing makes the relative increase from leap attack when using a two-handed weapon (+50%) smaller than the one for using a one-handed weapon (+100%). That sounds wrong.
I do however think that applying the errataed +100% of the normal bonus damage to both types of weapons (i.e. +2 damage on on-handed weapons and +4 on two-handed per -1 AB) is a simple houserule.
@Darrin: using 2.5 * STR makes no sense. The weird D&D multiplication only kicks in when you multiply the same abstract value more than once, which is not the case. The 1.5 multiplies the STR bonus and the crit multiplies damage. So there is only one multiplication per abstract value.Last edited by Andezzar; 2018-02-12 at 11:30 AM.
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2018-02-12, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
As I said. It's ambiguous and open to different interpretations. Your method is simpler and less likely to get bogged down into a lengthy discussion about associative, commutative, or distributive properties.
That's a separate issue. Whatever bonehead wrote the errata for Leap Attack made something that was fairly clear to understand to begin with and made it +100% more confusing (or is it x3 more confusing?). The fact that they forgot to fix the third sentence is just sloppy editing. I can't tell what problem they were trying to fix with the errata, but it's simpler to understand if you just ignore it or rewrite it with a houserule to include two-handed weapons.
Ok, that makes more sense than the way I explained it. However, I am uncomfortable with establishing a precedent that multiplying the Str bonus and multiplying the Str bonus as a damage modifier are two distinctly different values. You multiplied the Str bonus by x1.5. You multiply it later by x2. To me, that's multiplying the same value twice, and if you're using the wacky D&D multiplication rule, you'd get a x2.5 multiplier. You could make the same argument about Leap Attack, that it's not "damage" when it's multiplied x3 by Leap Attack.
Anyway, my suggestion would be not to get too far down into the weeds on this. Come up with something simple and fast that keeps the game moving.Last edited by Darrin; 2018-02-12 at 11:15 AM.
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2018-02-12, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Relevant quotes:
Originally Posted by Power AttackOriginally Posted by Leap Attack, third sentenceOriginally Posted by Leap Attack, errata
So, just to sum up the options for the OP for Leap Attack:
1. Take the bonus-to-penalty as a ratio of 1:1, multiply by 3. The effective result is three times the penalty.
This is when the interpretation is that the "triple the extra damage from Power Attack" means to take the extra damage of a 1H weapon and triple that, and that this is the result of a multiplication.
This gives you an already multiplied value, so further multiplications are already facing the combining rule. This is interpretation leads to by far the weakest result.
Doubling this, by lets say Valorous, would lead to four times the penalty. If you instead Tripled this it would lead to five times the penalty.
2. Take the bonus-to-penalty as a ratio of 3:1. The effective result is three times the penalty.
This is the same interpretation as the one above, however, being a modifier based on a ratio, not the result of a multiplication.
Since this is not a multiplied value further multiplication is not yet impacted and so is easier and stronger than option one.
Doubling this would lead to six times the penalty. Tripling would lead to nine times the penalty.
3. Take the bonus-to-penalty as a ratio of 1:1, multiply by 2, then add 100% of this. The effective result is four times the penalty.
This interpretation is that the errata applies to the 2H as well (basically also removing the third sentence), and that the bonus-to-penalty is of a multiplication.
Further maths become painful because you now have to multiply something that is already multiplied AND multiply something that is not already multiplied.
Doubling this would lead to seven times the penalty. Tripling would lead to ten times the penalty.
4. Take the bonus-to-penalty as a ratio of 2:1, add 100% of this. The effective result is four times the penalty.
This is the same interpretation as the one above, except the bonus-to-penalty being a modifier based on a ratio.
No multiplication involved, easier, stronger.
Doubling this would lead to eight times the penalty. Tripling this would lead to twelve times the penalty.
5. Take the bonus-to-penalty as a ratio of 1:1, multiply by 2, then multiply by 3. The effective result is four times the penalty.
This interpretation is that the "triple the extra damage from Power Attack" means to take the extra damage of a 2H weapon and triple that. It is also taking the extra damage of a 2H (the bonus-to-penalty) as itself being a multiplication.
Multiplication is involved, so further multiplication is impacted.
Doubling this would lead to five times the penalty. Tripling would lead to six times the penalty.
6. Take the bonus-to-penalty as a ratio of 2:1, multiply by 3. The effective result is six times the penalty.
This is the same interpretation as the one above, however, the bonus-to-penalty being a modifier based on a ratio, not the result of a multiplication
Multiplication is involved, so further multiplication is impacted.
Doubling this would lead to eight times the penalty. Tripling would lead to ten times the penalty.
So which option? RAW wise, 1, 2, 5, and 6 are all valid, although some require very obtuse interpretations and assumptions. Unfortunately, RAI is difficult to determine.
Balancing wise, I would say number 2 is the most reasonable - it is also the simplest to work with.
However, I would interpret number 6 as being the closest to RAW.
Edit: Added quote.Last edited by Aimeryan; 2018-02-12 at 02:18 PM.
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2018-02-12, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
You forgot the relevant quote from Power Attack:
Originally Posted by SRD
So options 1, 2, 3 and 5 are not RAW. 4 is not RAW but a sensible house rule. So that leaves us with 6 only. While it is true that this option is susceptible to weird D&D multiplication, I am not sure there even is another ability that multiplies the extra damage from power attack.Last edited by Andezzar; 2018-02-12 at 12:26 PM.
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2018-02-12, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Bolded for correction.
I agree with you that there isn't a ratio of 1:1 that is then multiplied by 2 and that it should be thought of as just 2:1 by default. However, there are those that interpret the "twice" as meaning multiplication is involved, rather than a substituted value based on a ratio. I am simply giving all the options mentioned.
Option 6 is the one I default to as well. However, if I wanted to balance uberchargers I would probably gravitate to option 2.
Edit: I've edited the previous post to include the quote.Last edited by Aimeryan; 2018-02-12 at 02:18 PM.
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2018-02-12, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-02-12, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Based on everything said here and the quotes for how the feats work I can't see how anything but the one persons "Option 2" is correct. It says in power attack that instead of 1 for 1 2h use 2 for 1. then in leap attack when talking specifically about 2h it says instead it becomes 3 for 1. this is telling you that, since its talking about 2hs specifically that you replace the normal 2:1 of power attack for 3:1 when using leap attack. I can't fathom how people could see this differently without willful misinterpretation.
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2018-02-12, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-02-12, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Read again, It explicitly says to "triple the extra damage from power attack". The extra damage from power attack is always +2 per -1 with a two handed weapon. As per the rules for Power Attack it cannot be +1 per -1, when a two-handed weapon is used. So it must be +2*3 per -1. It does not say to triple the damage you would get were you using a one-handed weapon with one hand.
You may not like it, but there is absolutely no basis in the rules for +1*3 per -1 when using a two-handed weapon.Last edited by Andezzar; 2018-02-12 at 01:29 PM.
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2018-02-12, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
I agree with Andezzar; 2:1 * 3 is the closest to RAW.
The argument is that the "the extra damage from Power Attack" means to use the 1H's extra damage, and therefore you should triple the 1:1 ratio; I see no reason to make this additional assumption. The extra damage from Power Attack for a 2H is that of a 2H, which is the 2:1 ratio.
If the issue is with the "instead" in the third sentence, then it is more obviously referring to the previous sentence when you look at the original:
Originally Posted by original versionOriginally Posted by errata'd version
For it to be 3:1 it would really have to say something like "...you instead add double the number subtracted from your attack rolls by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead add triple the number subtracted from your attack rolls from Power Attack."
For balance it probably would have been better they did that, but they didn't.Last edited by Aimeryan; 2018-02-12 at 02:20 PM.
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2018-02-12, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
This is the benefit of Power Attack
Originally Posted by SRD
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2018-02-12, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Yes, and the circumstance we are talking about is using a two-handed weapon. Power Attack does not state multiply the damage number you would get if you were using a one handed weapon in one hand by 2, it instructs us to use twice the number of the penalty as extra damage instead of using the same number. In both cases the rules are referencing the AB penalty, but the extra damage is calculated through different formulae. Only one is ever used.
The extra damage, not the numbers or the formula, is then referenced in the rules for Leap Attack, which in the case of a two-handed weapon is +2 per -1. So you arrive at +1*2 per -1 in case of a one-handed weapon wielded in one hand, and +2*3 per -1 in case of a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands.
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2018-02-12, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-02-12, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
No they aren't.
The rules for damage multiplication are very consistently spelled out:
Originally Posted by Player's Handbook, pg. 134, Damage, Multiplying Damage
That is the general rule used any time you apply a multiplier to a damage roll for any reason.
The proper method for determining damage on a critical hit, or in the case of the valorous enchantment weapon, or on any other time you are required to multiply a weapon damage roll: you roll the weapon damage (with all modifiers) once for each time the multiplier tells you to, and then add them together to get your result. The only things you do not roll more than once are any and all extra damage dice applied to your damage roll, beyond the dice listed for the weapon your character is wielding.
If a weapon or other special ability excepts itself from this rule, then that particular weapon or special ability will tell you.
The reason why pretty much every table doesn't do that is because nothing bogs the game down more than rolling the same dice multiple times for each action. So they instead simply multiply the one damage roll by the listed number.
Originally Posted by Player's Handbook, pg. 304, General Guidelines, Multiplying
Thus if Leap Attack required you to triple the normal bonus damage from a two-handed power attack, the ratio would be 4 damage for every -1 to your attack roll. Because Power Attack instructs you to "instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls" when using it with a two-handed weapon. Because tripling a double means you take one of those multipliers, subtract one from it, then add them together (3+[2-1]=4, or 2+[3-1]=4)
The reason why I said "if" that was the case is because, well...
I see assertions like this pop up quite often on this forum, and for some reason I am always bewildered every single time.
When I say "assertions like this", I am referring to arguments regarding what counts as Rules As Written that are based on the foundation that a) designer intent and common sense doesn't matter, and b) RAW means parsing out sentences such that they are devoid of the context present that allows you to ignore obvious intent.
This is exactly the wrong approach to take to interpreting the rules. They were designed to be read with both common sense and a reasonable understanding of the English language in mind. Trying to play the game strictly and solely by the Rules As Written leaves you with an unplayable game. This isn't some opinion I have formed based on my personal collective experience with the system. The rules flat-out tell you this is how you should be reading them:
Originally Posted by Rules Compendium, pg. 5, Rules Basics, Adjudication
So in order for the above assertions to be correct, that the proper thing to do with Leap Attack on a two-handed weapon is to apply a 6:1 ratio for bonus damage... you are required to read the "instead" in the sentence, "If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack." as referring to "instead of doubling the damage" as is contained within the Leap Attack feat, rather than what it clearly was intended to refer to, which is instead of using Power Attack's normal 2:1 ration for two-handed weapons, use 3:1.
As everyone seems to agree that is the most balanced and sensible interpretation, that tells me that you also agree the intent of the feat is clear. Arguing over actual sentence structure in a situation like this isn't using the Rules As Written. It's rules-lawyering. And it's counter to the entire point of optimizing a character.Last edited by Doctor Awkward; 2018-02-12 at 05:09 PM.
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2018-02-12, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Leap attack says this: If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
That means it only is talking about two handed weapons. And it says "you instead triple the extra damage from power attack". Which means instead of doing 2:1 its 3:1. Its clear as day thats what its saying. The errata to leap attack says nothing about 2h weapons and thus is irrelevant. Power Attack says 2:1 for 2 handed weapons or 1h weapon in 2 hands, and leap attack says that when you use it, with a 2h weapon "you instead triple.." which means instead of double which means 2:1 becomes 3:1.
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2018-02-12, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
It is important to the people it is important to - you don't have to be one of them if you don't want to be, I'm not going to force you, honest.
As you noted, I already said the 3:1 result is simpler and more balanced, at least before you get into what happens when you stack it with other possible Bonus:Penalty mutators like Improved Power Attack and Combat Brute (unless you read Combat Brute as additional damage... lets not go there).
I have not approached this without considering the intent; I have listed multiple ways of reading it and left it up to the OP as to what the intent may be. When pressed I have stated what my interpretation would be, however, I have also stated what interpretation I would prefer when considering balance. Looking at it from many different angles is never a bad thing, merely something some people have no desire to do.
Extra damage from Power Attack with a 2H is 2 damage for every 1 Attack Roll sacrificed. If you consider this to be its own figure then when you triple this you get 6 damage for every 1 Attack Roll sacrificed. If instead you consider it to be a multiplication of the 1H bonus then you apply combination rules and arrive at 4 damage for every 1 Attack Roll sacrificed.
Simple example: I take a -5 to my Attack Roll. I have a 2H, so I gain +10 extra damage. I use Leap Attack so I then triple this, so it is +30 extra damage, or +20 damage if applying combination rules.
Your assumption is that the triple is to the 1H extra damage (so 5 * 3 = 15), but that is not the extra damage of Power Attack when wielding a 2H weapon. It is an extra assumption to make that is not listed by RAW. I consider that some people prefer this interpretation, but I find it to be weaker by RAW. It may very well be RAI; I can simply not say.
I previously explained that the "instead" is referring to the previous sentence, which was more obvious before the errata.Last edited by Aimeryan; 2018-02-12 at 07:28 PM.
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2018-02-12, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-02-12, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
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2018-02-12, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
Instead is not referring to the previous sentence its referring to the general rule. Its saying you triple rather than double, from 2:1 to 3:1. Its very clear from the context of the line.
Yeah instead of 1:1 you get 2:1 and Leap attack says "instead you triple" its talking about the 1:1. Instead of 2:1 you get 3:1.
But I've said my peace, so I'm done here.Last edited by Remuko; 2018-02-12 at 07:36 PM.
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2018-02-12, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Power Attack + Leap Attack Question
I am happy to accept that as an interpretation, I just see it as an extra step to take and thus Occam's razor...
If, however, you mean to say it can not possibly be referring to the previous statement, I can only say you need to read up on how English is parsed. Perhaps an example would help?
"You may take 2 chocolates from my hand. If you have been a good boy you may instead take 3."
What does the good boy take 3 of? and where from? I can tell you that most English readers will be able to parse the "instead" as meaning instead of "2 chocolates from my hand" that was the case of the previous sentence.
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2018-02-12, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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