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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lacuna Caster's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    We are not talking about tragic victims of oppression, but we are talking about creatures with free will, and we have in fact seen Malack tenderly nurture their newly-raised spawn and bitterly mourn their passing.
    Yeah, but that's the specific OOTSverse flavour of undead, not necessarily what the bulk of D&D implies or what a specific fantasy universe might define wights as, which I explicitly noted.

    I don't know what 'free will' is supposed to translate to exactly, but there's certainly no particular correlation between intelligence and morality. High-IQ individuals are no more statistically agreeable, for example.
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  2. - Top - End - #302
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    If you aren't willing to take that risk and put in the work, then you should pick a more realistic goal. Drizzt didn't hang around Waterdeep bemoaning the fact that humans are so racist and judgmental, he kept looking until he found somewhere he could live safely, and worked upward from there.
    The root question I'm trying to ask is "what is the work"? Lacuna Caster described some work, but was unwilling to commit to the position that it would actually succeed, which is unhelpful.

    What is a more realistic goal? Starting with a village instead of a city doesn't really help, because according to you and Lacuna Caster, I still have the root problem of convincing the people who already live there not to kill me on sight. And if I start by completely isolating myself from all intelligent creatures, there's no way forward.

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Lacuna Caster's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    The root question I'm trying to ask is "what is the work"? Lacuna Caster described some work, but was unwilling to commit to the position that it would actually succeed, which is unhelpful.

    What is a more realistic goal? Starting with a village instead of a city doesn't really help, because according to you and Lacuna Caster, I still have the root problem of convincing the people who already live there not to kill me on sight. And if I start by completely isolating myself from all intelligent creatures, there's no way forward.
    Well nothing is ever guaranteed. In the same sense that any community considering adopting a mind-flayer can't be guaranteed they're actually friendly.

    I do think starting with a village improves your odds, though, simply because there are fewer variables to account for and you don't have to put in so much work to sway the majority of the inhabitants to your side. And yeah, that's a lot of work, but hey, you're a super-intelligent psy-wizard who can fly and junk. Put it to use.

    There is the question of how this mind-flayer would actually arrive at this decision, though, since they generally live as a communal hive-mind under the direction of a conservative elder brain. Not easy to keep your Little-Mermaid-memorabilia under wraps under those circumstances. You'd probably have to have been sent out into the world on some kind of recon mission and get separated from your pod first?
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  4. - Top - End - #304
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shulk View Post
    Aren't we supposed to be discussing gobbotopia?
    Gobbotopia was used as an example of the interplay of DnD alignment and RW morality within the comic, I think. So we are still on-topic, I would say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    I don't know what 'free will' is supposed to translate to exactly, but there's certainly no particular correlation between intelligence and morality. High-IQ individuals are no more statistically agreeable, for example.
    1) Agreeability and morality is not the same thing.
    2) You need a certain level of intelligence to grasp moral conundrum, newborns and "lower" animals understand right and wrong only in terms of "how satisfied am I".

    I'd say free-will is the capacity to make choices.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law

    Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling in the mud with a pig, it is difficult, undignified and in the end you realize the pig is enjoying it.


  5. - Top - End - #305
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    zimmerwald1915's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Gobbotopia was used as an example of the interplay of DnD alignment and RW morality within the comic, I think.
    Can we talk about Gobbotopia and the carnivalesque?
    "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,"
    William Congreve, The Mourning Bride, 3:8 (1697).

    Human stick-figure Twilight Sparkle by me. Find more here.

  6. - Top - End - #306
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Can we talk about Gobbotopia and the carnivalesque?
    Is that the hobgoblin martial clowning adept in the Blood Runs in the Family bonus strip?

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    zimmerwald1915's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Is that the hobgoblin martial clowning adept in the Blood Runs in the Family bonus strip?
    Sure, but also the idea of a brief upending of society that fuels the utopian imagination and also serves as a safety valve against social unrest?
    "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,"
    William Congreve, The Mourning Bride, 3:8 (1697).

    Human stick-figure Twilight Sparkle by me. Find more here.

  8. - Top - End - #308
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Jasdoif's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Sure, but also the idea of a brief upending of society that fuels the utopian imagination and also serves as a safety valve against social unrest?
    Hmm....You mean like that thing mentioned in one of the books in Dishonored where there's a couple days between the end of one year and the start of the next, and nothing that happens on those intervening days are subject to usual accountability because it happens outside any year?

    If so....Are you saying Gobbotopia on the whole represents the desires of the hobgoblins who live there, which they're free to act on now that the constraints Azure City had enforced upon them? Or are you saying that's only a phase of Gobbotopia, a celebratory transition for the hobgoblins; and they haven't seriously considered what they're going to be doing as of the last time we saw them? Or something else entirely?

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    zimmerwald1915's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Hmm....You mean like that thing mentioned in one of the books in Dishonored where there's a couple days between the end of one year and the start of the next, and nothing that happens on those intervening days are subject to usual accountability because it happens outside any year?

    If so....Are you saying Gobbotopia on the whole represents the desires of the hobgoblins who live there, which they're free to act on now that the constraints Azure City had enforced upon them? Or are you saying that's only a phase of Gobbotopia, a celebratory transition for the hobgoblins; and they haven't seriously considered what they're going to be doing as of the last time we saw them? Or something else entirely?
    I'm suggesting its existence is limited in time, and will maybe be remembered as "a brief golden age, almost an age of justice."
    "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,"
    William Congreve, The Mourning Bride, 3:8 (1697).

    Human stick-figure Twilight Sparkle by me. Find more here.

  10. - Top - End - #310
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Well nothing is ever guaranteed. In the same sense that any community considering adopting a mind-flayer can't be guaranteed they're actually friendly.

    I do think starting with a village improves your odds, though, simply because there are fewer variables to account for and you don't have to put in so much work to sway the majority of the inhabitants to your side.
    Well, if the problem is the number of people, let's narrow things down, and bring it to somebody about whose reaction you can speak authoritatively: you. What would a D&D version of you, living in a D&D version of your town, need to observe from illithid me to go from your current position of "it's a mind-flayer, kill it!" to "he seems a decent fellow, let's not kill him"? For widest applicability, let's assume this version of D&D you doesn't have any access to magic.

  11. - Top - End - #311
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    zimmerwald1915's Avatar

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    What would a D&D version of you, living in a D&D version of your town, need to observe from illithid me to go from your current position of "it's a mind-flayer, kill it!"
    FWIW, there's another instinctive response: "it's a mind flayer, run away!" And a third: "it's a mind flayer, imma shut down and wait to die because anything else is futile." A failure on the part of the mind flayer to give chase or take advantage might be a good indication as to its intentions.

    And I'm pretty sure either response is more likely than "kill it!" unless one is backed up by a large crowd.
    "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,"
    William Congreve, The Mourning Bride, 3:8 (1697).

    Human stick-figure Twilight Sparkle by me. Find more here.

  12. - Top - End - #312
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    FWIW, there's another instinctive response: "it's a mind flayer, run away!" And a third: "it's a mind flayer, imma shut down and wait to die because anything else is futile." A failure on the part of the mind flayer to give chase or take advantage might be a good indication as to its intentions.

    And I'm pretty sure either response is more likely than "kill it!" unless one is backed up by a large crowd.
    We're not talking about instinctive responses here; Lacuna Caster claims that "it's a mind flayer, kill it!" is a reasoned and rational strategy. Worse, both Keltest and Lacuna Caster seem to think that even an extended period of not causing harm is insufficient evidence of an illithid's unwillingness to cause harm, and the illithid must do some active thing in order to prove they do not deserve death. Mysteriously, however, neither of them has yet to clearly identify what active thing would constitute such proof.

  13. - Top - End - #313
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    We're not talking about instinctive responses here; Lacuna Caster claims that "it's a mind flayer, kill it!" is a reasoned and rational strategy. Worse, both Keltest and Lacuna Caster seem to think that even an extended period of not causing harm is insufficient evidence of an illithid's unwillingness to cause harm, and the illithid must do some active thing in order to prove they do not deserve death. Mysteriously, however, neither of them has yet to clearly identify what active thing would constitute such proof.
    I would thank you to not attribute things that have not been said to myself, and I suspect Lacuna Caster will agree with me. You have done remarkably little in the way of actually suggesting ways that an Illithid or similar creature could prove its benevolence, and you have certainly not elaborated on what "an extended period" of not causing harm would entail beyond not actively antagonizing the community.

    Yes, an Illithid must proactively prove its benevolence before I'm willing to trust it. Yes, that might be a high bar to clear. When something looks at me and sees dinner, I don't think mistrust and fear is an unwarranted reaction.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  14. - Top - End - #314
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I would thank you to not attribute things that have not been said to myself, and I suspect Lacuna Caster will agree with me.
    Lacuna Caster said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    From a brute mathematical standpoint, if you waved a magic wand and erased all illithids, you're... still saving a lot of lives.
    Waving a magic wand and erasing all illithids is genocide. It was after this suggestion of genocide that you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I don't, as a rule of thumb, believe that evil creatures should be met with automatic violence, but there comes a point where your relative positions on the predator/prey chart necessitates that the burden of proof is on the superpredator to prove that theyre the exception, rather than on the prey proving theyre the norm.
    Which I took as meaning that the "prey" species would be correct to "erase" the "superpredator" preemptively, barring proof of exceptionalism. Did I misunderstand that, and if so, would you like to clarify?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    You have done remarkably little in the way of actually suggesting ways that an Illithid or similar creature could prove its benevolence, and you have certainly not elaborated on what "an extended period" of not causing harm would entail beyond not actively antagonizing the community.
    My position is that the burden of proof falls on the "prey" species to acquire evidence of malevolence on behalf of the "superpredator" before "erasing" it. I take this position, in large part, because I don't know of any way to prove benevolence, which is why I asked you to suggest one. Note that proving malevolence is much easier, as it merely requires showing actual harm the creature is doing or has done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Yes, an Illithid must proactively prove its benevolence before I'm willing to trust it. Yes, that might be a high bar to clear. When something looks at me and sees dinner, I don't think mistrust and fear is an unwarranted reaction.
    Mistrust and fear are fine. Using those as an excuse for preemptive "erasure" is not.

  15. - Top - End - #315
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by theNater View Post
    Lacuna Caster said this:

    Waving a magic wand and erasing all illithids is genocide. It was after this suggestion of genocide that you said:

    Which I took as meaning that the "prey" species would be correct to "erase" the "superpredator" preemptively, barring proof of exceptionalism. Did I misunderstand that, and if so, would you like to clarify?


    My position is that the burden of proof falls on the "prey" species to acquire evidence of malevolence on behalf of the "superpredator" before "erasing" it. I take this position, in large part, because I don't know of any way to prove benevolence, which is why I asked you to suggest one. Note that proving malevolence is much easier, as it merely requires showing actual harm the creature is doing or has done.


    Mistrust and fear are fine. Using those as an excuse for preemptive "erasure" is not.
    If your definition of "preemptive" is "as a response to them moving into your home*" then I don't think there is any point in continuing this conversation.

    *you in this case being the collective you of whichever city or town they try to move into, not a literal home invasion.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  16. - Top - End - #316
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    If your definition of "preemptive" is "as a response to them moving into your home*" then I don't think there is any point in continuing this conversation.

    *you in this case being the collective you of whichever city or town they try to move into, not a literal home invasion.
    There's moving in and moving in. Custom oficers gotta eat too.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; Today at 08:19 PM.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law

    Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling in the mud with a pig, it is difficult, undignified and in the end you realize the pig is enjoying it.


  17. - Top - End - #317
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Gobbotopia: Subjective or Objective? Alignment or Morality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    If your definition of "preemptive" is "as a response to them moving into your home*" then I don't think there is any point in continuing this conversation.

    *you in this case being the collective you of whichever city or town they try to move into, not a literal home invasion.
    Your initial statement about burden of proof came before the suggestion of moving into town. I'm using "preemptive" here to mean "as a response to them existing".

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