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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Depending on how close you hew to history, about the only thing that you cannot do on a flag is use purple because of the expense of the dye. Otherwise, you can probably find a terribly designed flag to point to show how your flag isn't as terribly designed as that.

    Going for US state flags, I like how some are almost proper flags, but then it got to committee.

    Committee Member: "So, it's a single star in a vertical stripe, and two horizontal stripes?"
    Designer: "Yes sir. Simple. Clean. Recognizable."
    Committee Member II: "Yes. But, it just doesn't say 'North Carolina' to me. Put 'NC' on the flag."
    Designer: "But that will look..."
    Committee Member III: "I see you removed the dates."
    Designer: "I know they have meaning, but that's not the point of a flag."
    Committee Member III: "My wife's birthday is May 20th."
    Designer: "I'll put them back."
    Committee Member IV: "My cousin puts out a clip-art CD. Can we work this budget scroll work in there somewhere?"
    Committee Member III: "We can use them as the background for the dates!"
    Designer: "Fine. You know what? As long as I get paid. I'm moving to Alabama."

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    For reference, here is my province' Coat of Arms:


    The provincial flag is in the sheild.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    As far as I know flags don't have any real rules to them. Heraldry traditionally has rules, because it originated as a way of practically identifying knights on a battlefield, much like modern uniforms and rank insignia. A system which only worked if everyone agreed to play by the same rules. And like all military fashions in a time of war, it eventually became fashionable in a civil context. National Flags are a much more modern thing and usually came down to either historical precedent or symbolism (Republics using the Tricolor). So for a flag "it looks cool/meaningful" is a viable answer.
    Last edited by War_lord; 2018-02-14 at 12:33 AM.
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    Yeah, I think the only way it makes sense is if you picture Yeenoghu spreading his taint over every gnoll.

    Go ahead and imagine that.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Knaight's Avatar

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxybe View Post
    For reference, here is my province' Coat of Arms:


    The provincial flag is in the sheild.
    Thus demonstrating that if you're going to rock a coat of arms you should just rock a coat of arms.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Because I felt like putting it together, and it's a really simple image, what I would propose as a flag for Missouri, were it an issue for anybody but me. :P
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  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Michigan state flag:

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    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    Planet Mercenary RPG Discussion

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    You should be able to come up with some simple rules for your own setting, I think. Like, I don't know: background color denotes main culture, animals denote certain old bloodlines, a chevron or a stripe to denote if they're landed or not, etc.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    John Campbell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Michigan state flag:

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    I like the waving sasquatch.

    My own home state, Vermont, is another of the lamentable "state seal centered on a dark blue field" ones, but IMAO one of the nicer-looking ones of that category. Our original flag (green field, blue canton with a quirkily irregular spatter of white stars) was still way better. The state-seal-on-blue ones where they solved the "they all look the same" problem by printing the state name on it in big block letters (Wisconsin, Montana, Oregon, Kansas...) are the worst.

    Formerly, the worst was Georgia's 20012003 flag, which contained insets of five other flags in a sort of Inception of bad vexillology.
    Play your character, not your alignment.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Because I felt like putting it together, and it's a really simple image, what I would propose as a flag for Missouri, were it an issue for anybody but me. :P
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    It's a bit Pepsi, but still much better than the current one.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Campbell View Post
    I like the waving sasquatch.
    I think he's supposed to be an explorer or fur trapper.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    Planet Mercenary RPG Discussion

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    I think he's supposed to be an explorer or fur trapper.
    Shhhhh, I think Mr. Campbell has the far more entertaining, and therefore better, answer. I mean, tons of flags have ideas of exploration or some such, but how many have bigfoot!? Through I think that means that the empire of the OP's post should start using giant eagles. I mean, why shouldn't the flag double as a warning sign?
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Re: flags being easy to draw...

    Heavens, I wish more of the States of the USA had understood that rule. I think Texas is the only one that is a real flag, and that may be due to it having been an independent nation, first.
    Ohio's is pretty good from that except that the stars are a bit too small (though not as small as the US flag). I mean - it's basically just a pennant riff on The American Flag.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    The flag of Hawaii is pretty good as a national flag (because it originally was a national flag for the Kingdom of Hawaii).

    The flag of Texas works too. It's just the American flag but dumbed down for people that don't want to count higher than one.

    "How many red stripes and how many white? And how many stars? Naw. Ain't nobody got time for that! One of each! They'll get the idea." --the designer of the flag of Texas, probably

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Vinyadan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Michigan state flag:

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    Latin for "If you are looking for a nice peninsula, look around"

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Latin for "If you are looking for a nice peninsula, look around"
    It's traditionally "pleasant" instead of "nice", but otherwise yes.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    Planet Mercenary RPG Discussion

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Just a thing: in heraldry, you don't need to reproduce the "animal" perfectly. If it's a two-headed eagle, then it can be drawn in very different styles, but, as long as it's a two-headed eagle that is facing the right direction and doing the same thing, with the same main colours, then it's OK.
    True, Colouring and positioning are the most important factors. Before the industrial era it was nearly impossible to make exact copies everytime you needed a flag/shield, etc.

    The Flemish/Brabant lion, seen in Philips 1 coat of arms, according to some historians started as leopards, before shifting towards a lion through the ages.
    Last edited by mig el pig; 2018-02-15 at 07:41 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    It's a bit Pepsi, but still much better than the current one.
    Ouch on the Pepsi bit, but I do see what you mean. Thanks, otherwise!

    Main design considerations were to keep the RWB color scheme and just reshape it to say "Missouri" in as simple a way as possible.

    If I wanted to get gaudy I could put a stylized (we're talking "twitter symbol" or "Jesus Fish" levels stylized and simplicity here) bluejay on one of the red panels, and an equally stylized dogwood flower on the other. (State bird and state flower, respectively.) Though to be honest, I always thought they were rather arbitrarily chosen state symbols. They're hardly unique to the state.

    I also considered adding white stripes to the blue field, both in a call-back to the American flag's white stripes and to increase the "water" look of it. (I'm kind-of picturing it as a very stylized look at the arch over the river with the sunset (in the west) in the background, since the Gateway Arch symbolizes the Gateway to the West, and Missouri was often considered the eastern-most "Western State.")

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Yeah, I'd avoid state symbols that you share with other states, such as the dogwood. That's going to get confusing fast.

    Also, Missouri has the bluebird as the state symbol, not the blue jay.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Yeah, I'd avoid state symbols that you share with other states, such as the dogwood. That's going to get confusing fast.

    Also, Missouri has the bluebird as the state symbol, not the blue jay.
    Gah, you're right. I actually wrote "bludbird," then corrected myself. I am shamed; I grew up in Missouri, and should not have gotten that mixed up.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by mig el pig View Post
    The Flemish/Brabant lion, seen in Philips 1 coat of arms, according to some historians started as leopards, before shifting towards a lion through the ages.
    That sounds like someone misunderstanding what "leopard" means in heraldry. "Leopard" or "leo pard" (bearded lion) is the heraldic name for what we would consider a lion.
    The three lions of the English royal arms are, in heraldic terms, leopards...

    I have no idea what the heraldic term for a real leopard is, except possibly a lion (or a leo).

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    At the end of the day, as long a you're not flying Finland's special lion, who stabbed himself in the head and is trying to eat a bunch of flowers, if this comic is to be believed, you're golden in my books.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Honest Tiefling's Avatar

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxybe View Post
    At the end of the day, as long a you're not flying Finland's special lion, who stabbed himself in the head and is trying to eat a bunch of flowers, if this comic is to be believed, you're golden in my books.
    Google weird flags. You might be a tad disappointed. I suggest to the OP of giving a rival to the imperial flag a very silly flag just as a point of interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Gah, you're right. I actually wrote "bludbird," then corrected myself. I am shamed; I grew up in Missouri, and should not have gotten that mixed up.
    That's what you get for stealing our state bird. Through, that does bring up a point: would anyone else be using the eagle? It's a rather common motif, IIRC, so would anyone else be stealing their symbols?
    Last edited by Honest Tiefling; 2018-02-16 at 01:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    That's what you get for stealing our state bird. Through, that does bring up a point: would anyone else be using the eagle? It's a rather common motif, IIRC, so would anyone else be stealing their symbols?
    Which State shares the bluebird with Missouri?

    Also, the comment regarding Eagles made me go to Bald Eagles and now I want to see Patrick Steward playing a Bald Eagle in something. :P

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Which State shares the bluebird with Missouri?
    Your state game bird is the quail, which has already been claimed, MICHIGAN.

    Through why you'd need any eagle other than Sam the Eagle is beyond me. Do you think Patrick Stewart would even bother with an American accent?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
    For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by oxybe View Post
    For reference, here is my province' Coat of Arms:


    The provincial flag is in the sheild.
    I feel the need to apologise for having to Google Image search the coat of arms to double check. All I knew was that it was an Eastern province, but as an Albertan, that doesn't say much.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    I feel the need to apologise for having to Google Image search the coat of arms to double check. All I knew was that it was an Eastern province, but as an Albertan, that doesn't say much.
    You should!...Just open the image in a new tab, it tells you which province that way. Is it just me, or are foxes not that common in heraldry? Or are those wolves?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    Man, I like this tiefling.
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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    It's a reference to the flag of California, which is just a bear. It shows up in an upgraded form in Fallout. I do wonder if California just decided on the bear thanks to committee...'No, we are NOT putting drugs on the flag!'.
    Mostly because it was a short lived war flag.....
    California was an independent nation for all of a month or so....
    Generally called the Bear Flag Republic but never officially because it was basically only was supposed to last to get the okay from the US to join as a state...Heck the star in the state flag corner was in part a show of solidarity with Texas about going to war with Mexico of all things. It was all very loosy goosey.

    As for the OP flag I would say that is an excellent flag.

    See the Prussian flag...or even the modern German flag which under some situations still has the black eagle on gold shield (which may be the war flag)...or the Polish State Flag..or even the Canadian flag....yeah. That is an excellent flag.

    actually most flags older than say the French Revolution would not be considered "Good" by a lot of the new ideas of what is a "good" flag....which now are the easy ones to tell apart. The mass of tricolor and four bar flags is just kinda gets in the way. "good" flag design ends up with too many similar flags which become easy to confuse. Which means new "Good" flag ideas come to prominence.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Campbell View Post
    I like the waving sasquatch.

    My own home state, Vermont, is another of the lamentable "state seal centered on a dark blue field" ones, but IMAO one of the nicer-looking ones of that category. Our original flag (green field, blue canton with a quirkily irregular spatter of white stars) was still way better. The state-seal-on-blue ones where they solved the "they all look the same" problem by printing the state name on it in big block letters (Wisconsin, Montana, Oregon, Kansas...) are the worst.

    Formerly, the worst was Georgia's 20012003 flag, which contained insets of five other flags in a sort of Inception of bad vexillology.
    Hey, Oregon's is unique! And by "unique" I mean "contains additional bad ideas that set it apart from the others, like being totally different on the back than on the front"

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Your state game bird is the quail, which has already been claimed, MICHIGAN.

    Through why you'd need any eagle other than Sam the Eagle is beyond me. Do you think Patrick Stewart would even bother with an American accent?
    ...*sigh*

    State...game bird. Really.

    Shows how much Missourians care about it that I never knew that, despite growing up there.

    And I named Patrick Stewart because his bald head came to mind with "bald eagle." Sam Eagle is, in fact, quite awesome. His segments in the most recent Muppet movie (Most Wanted) were my favorites.

    And Patrick Stewart's American accent would be as flawless as his French one.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Flag design vs Heraldry, an odd conversation with a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    You should!...Just open the image in a new tab, it tells you which province that way. Is it just me, or are foxes not that common in heraldry? Or are those wolves?
    Those are silver foxes, which are actually native to the province. PEI had a pretty rich history of fur trade as we managed to successfully capture and breed them for their pelts. Since there is little demand for it nowadays, the foxes were let free and you still see them around town or in the fields by my parent's place.

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