Shaman vs Sentinel

[ve4grm]

Hi guys,

So these are two Leader classes that have very similar flavor - primal leader with a spirit pet. I'm trying to get a compare/contrast between the two. Can someone help me out?

So far I think:

- Shaman leans towards defender or striker, depending on class feature choice.
- Sentinel leans towards striker or controller, esp. with Druid power swaps?
- Sentinel uses weapon and implement powers, Shaman uses implement, but many are melee or close range anyways.
- Shaman has that nice distributed healing, Sentinel has the more powerful single-target Healing Word.

What else? What am I missing? Is there something exceptional (good or bad) about either of these classes?

[masteraleph]

Shaman has the best at will Basic Attack granting in the game- either Eagle if your strikers are generally ranged or Animist if they’re melee.

[ve4grm]

Shaman has the best at will Basic Attack granting in the game- either Eagle if your strikers are generally ranged or Animist if they’re melee.

Interesting. I wasn't really expecting that, but you might be right! (I don't know if I'd put them above warlord just with those powers, but they're up there for sure.) Hmm...

Any thoughts on World Speaker?

[Kurald Galain]

The sentinel is not really a leader. Aside from its Healing Word power, it has little or no leader abilities and plays more like a straightforward striker. Of course, the sentinel wants to get as many powers as possible from the base druid, which is a much stronger class.

[Wasteomana]

Another interesting note on the Sentinel is that you can MC Cleric to get an extra use of healing word as well as get all the cleric healing word support since it is the same spell.

One of the oddities about shaman that gets house-ruled with some regularity is the range on their heal. It doesn't scale with level which can be pretty awkward.

The shaman pet is also a conjuration and rather hard to kill. It is not uncommon for shamans to pick up Tome Expertise even if they don't use a tome for the extra granted CA. Since the companion is not a conjuration for the Sentinel they do not have that option.

For me I greatly prefer shamans. Partially because they have very interesting powers and partially because of the amazingness of their at-will attack granting (which gets even better in paragon with access to a no-questions asked free action summon). Sentinel is ok and something that I like to see Hybrided more than played straight.

[ve4grm]

The shaman pet is also a conjuration and rather hard to kill. It is not uncommon for shamans to pick up Tome Expertise even if they don't use a tome for the extra granted CA. Since the companion is not a conjuration for the Sentinel they do not have that option.

Interesting.

I guess that brings up another question - implements for Shamans. Totems are fine and all, but the Expertise feat is kinda whatever. Staff and Tome expertise are great, but you aren't proficient. Is it worth spending a feat for a different implement?

For me I greatly prefer shamans. Partially because they have very interesting powers and partially because of the amazingness of their at-will attack granting (which gets even better in paragon with access to a no-questions asked free action summon). Sentinel is ok and something that I like to see Hybrided more than played straight.

Where do you get the free action summon? Haven't seen that yet.

[Yakk]

The one sentinal I played was all about gumming up battlefield with a pet, MC shaman for a conjuration, and daily druid summons.

Those 3 can build an OA-wall 9 wide against melee foes. With the druid it is now 12 wide. Or a solid wall 3-4 wide.

Attacks on summons or other pets are wasted compared to attacks on PCs. Using it I let the rest of the party take out part of the encounter before the other half could meaningfully engage.

It didn't appear to scale well, but it worked great in low heroic.

[ve4grm]

Ah yes, the Litterbug build (sorta).

Unfortunately that D&D Outsider article isn't up on WotC anymore, and I can't find a backup. I think the original was a Wizard|Beastmaster/Shaman, with a Horse beast companion (for the large size), Arcane Familiar, pet theme, and zone spells. One battle per day, it could fill something like 35 squares of the map. (Plus a lot in any other battle, but not that much.)

This was before the Sentinel. With access to Druid summoning as well, a Wizard|Sentinel variant would probably be even worse.

[masteraleph]

Interesting.

I guess that brings up another question - implements for Shamans. Totems are fine and all, but the Expertise feat is kinda whatever. Staff and Tome expertise are great, but you aren't proficient. Is it worth spending a feat for a different implement?

In Tome's case, typically no- the point is you take Expertise (which doesn't actually require proficiency) to hand out Combat Advantage with minimal effort. Staff is nice, and Invoker is actually a nice MC for Shaman, so that could definitely work- you can also poach a control power if you want, and you get access to Flame of Hope as a PP, which is very powerful if you're Int secondary- there's a reason Flameswitch and Illusion of Hope both use it.

Where do you get the free action summon? Haven't seen that yet.

Wasteomana was actually referring to a free action Call Spirit Companion, in the form of the Paragon Feat Nimble Spirit (from PHB2). Helps a lot with action economy if you tend to do things that make your companion leave the board. Really, really valuable (as is its Heroic version, Sudden Call, which is only 1/encounter) on a Hybrid Animist, since they don't get the beginning of turn free action summon.

[Wasteomana]

In Tome's case, typically no- the point is you take Expertise (which doesn't actually require proficiency) to hand out Combat Advantage with minimal effort. Staff is nice, and Invoker is actually a nice MC for Shaman, so that could definitely work- you can also poach a control power if you want, and you get access to Flame of Hope as a PP, which is very powerful if you're Int secondary- there's a reason Flameswitch and Illusion of Hope both use it.

Wasteomana was actually referring to a free action Call Spirit Companion, in the form of the Paragon Feat Nimble Spirit (from PHB2). Helps a lot with action economy if you tend to do things that make your companion leave the board. Really, really valuable (as is its Heroic version, Sudden Call, which is only 1/encounter) on a Hybrid Animist, since they don't get the beginning of turn free action summon.

Yes to both of these. Aleph has hit the nail on the head. You likely won't be using a tome, but the extra rider is super handy if you aren't fighting a bunch of fear immune stuff. Totem expertise is then only default one, and picking up staff expertise can be really handy for the listed thing.

Also, while he is right about the source of stuff, if you want to look for cool things to do on the shaman, sentinel or any other character, I would highly recommend getting your hands on a copy of the Portable Compendium. It just makes life easy to have every book combined into one program that you can search, filter and bookmark.

[ve4grm]

Thanks, guys. Yeah, I have the portable compendium, but I'm away from home for a few days and don't have a pc here to reference it.