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2018-02-13, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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2018-02-13, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and warlock
Looking for someone whose feet one can lay the blame is not a helpful endeavor. It is the DM and PC group's shared 'fault' (/decision) to choose to play their game in a specific way. It is the game designer's 'fault' that they chose to give a bunch of different options for character creation/choice which favored different encounter-per-rest ratios (an that sounds like I'm 'blaming' them by saying they did something laudable, but I will criticize their decision a bit. Groups seem to either play 1 combat/day or 12-20, and they chose to balance it at 6-8, which is averaging a bimodal distribution, which frankly isn't that good of an idea).
Honestly, 'fault' isn't the issue. It's simply about recognizing that the decision to choose a SR-recharge class amongst LR-recharging classes (who play the game therefore in a way that favors LR classes) is a vaguely self-hamstringing action.
It's like putting a stock car in the Indy-500--it's not going to perform as well, but that doesn't mean it was poorly designed (for its' purpose).
This. And that decision has caused no end of these discussions. I doubt this would have actually worked from a book-sales point of view, but from a high-level view, perhaps they should have made a SR- and LR- version of each class, or made more explicit that the Warlock (and maybe some new wizard equivalent) are the SR-equivalents of sorcerers and wizards, and that the two aren't expected to be used by the same groups, or the like.
OTOH, if you do play the game with the 6-8 and 2 SR that they recommend, all the classes really do come out roughly equal. And they haven't been shy about explaining their expectations, and offering alternative recharge mechanics and the like for those who wish to vary their games.
All the classes have that, the warlock (and battle master fighter, monks, etc.) are simply on the other side of a split than the Long-rest recharging classes. Whatever game designer who decided to vary this is/are the ones that looked at how poorly the edition that did otherwise (4e, where everyone had the same recharge mechanics) did in the market and decided to do differently.
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2018-02-13, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
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2018-02-13, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
The narrative?
The 5e rest system is designed to play out like an action story.
If you want a drama or a thriller you're in the wrong place.
Constant rests remove all of the tension from the story. What you deem 'race against the clock' is actually just normal story pacing. There are objectives and the PCs either accomplish them or they don't. Time moves forward. The world reacts to the PCs. You can't enter the orc caves and then take 8 hours out after defeating the guards. The rest of the orcs are going to come and kill everyone. Everything on camera is 'race against the clock'. If it isn't then it's downtime.
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2018-02-13, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
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2018-02-13, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
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2018-02-13, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and warlock
The comparison is incomplete, you say your optimizing, but not in the melee example? Using multi-classing to prove the deficiencies of a pure class without addressing the benefits of being single class is silly. Also your comparison only takes into account a power spike in character level at 11th but not bothering to look 12th or higher. If you want to smite more grab full caster or paladin levels after 14th. But for the sake of just the math. I'll assume 12th level, 20 char, with the proper feats and invocations.
Elven Accuracy and 20 char.
Round 1 - Bonus Action Hex Curse - Action Eldritch Blast (3d10 + 15 char + 12 prof) Avg dam 43.5 dam
Round 2 - Bonus Action Hex - Action EB (3d10 +3d6 + 27) avg 54 dam
Round 3 - Bonus Action Quicken EB - Action EB - 108 dam is they all hit
Total: 205.5 dam or 68.6 dam /per round
Hexblade:
GWM and 20 char
Round 1 - Bonus Action Hex Curse - Action 2 attacks + smite 4d6 + 5d8 + 20 char + 8 prof - 64.5 dam (+20 dam- 84.5 GWM)
Round 2 - Bonus Action Hex - Action 2 attacks + smite 4d6 + 5d8 + 2d6 + 20 char + 8 prof - 71.5 dam (+20 dam - 91.5 GWM)
Round 3 - Action 2 attacks + smite 4d6 + 2d6 + 20 char + 8 prof = 49 dam (+20 dam - 69 GWM)
Total: 185 or 61.6 avg/ round (245 dam or 81.6 dam/round ) and this is without haste (item or party buff) or magical weapon.
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2018-02-13, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
Therein lies the problem, and why I refer to the appropriate # of combats/day to design your game/classes for to be a bimodal distribution. From the origins of the game, it has been "about" both 1) crawling down into deep, dank dungeons (often nonsensical ones that belie no IRL purpose) to defeat, bargain with, or sneak past dozens of potential encounters, and 2) hexcrawl for miles across untamed wilderness, encountering 1-2 potential combat (or equivalent) encounters per day. Plus the unspoken 3) (why have those castles if you never have courtly scenes? etc.) social part of it.
No edition has really balanced that well ('that' being balancing between differing encounter frequency). Heck, most games total don't really do it well. Games like Champions/Hero System have an encounter-level recharge (and alternate rules for charges/day, so basically the same 2 options as D&D). Other systems do it other was. But I don't really know any that do two distinct distributions well in one system.
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2018-02-13, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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2018-02-13, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
But the warlock doesn't need the 'ammo' of those two slots, because its other class features that never run dry are souped up enough to get through whole encounters by themselves. It's part of the design balance.
A wizard is like a soldier with a .22 calibre pistol which never runs out of ammunition, but with a limited number of grenades of different sizes. He fights by lobbing grenades, with the pistol for backup.
A warlock is like a soldier who has a .75 calibre hand-held heavy machine gun which never runs out of ammo, but only two grenades, each of the largest available size. He fights by using the machine gun as a lead hose, with the two grenades as backup.
If the warlock soldier tried to fight like the wizard soldier then he'd be out of grenades very quickly. But if the wizard soldier tried to fight like the warlock soldier then his .22 pistol will have very little effect on the enemy compared to that heavy machine gun.
Neither is badly designed. It's just that either one can be badly used, and that's the fault of the DM and player.
Easing the dramatic tension to allow the Warlock to constantly reload is a narrative compromise.
Where is the DM here? If the verisimilitude of the campaign narrative is such a big deal (and it should) then why isn't the world reacting realistically to the party's actions? Why is it the party who chose to fight or not to fight? Why don't the bad guys decide to attack them? Especially after the players foolishly nova in the belief that the only fight they can be in are the ones they start?
And sometimes the PCs are indeed just pottering about town, because it's unrealistic to be against a doom clock for every second of every day. And as soon as there is no time element based on minutes then the PCs get a short rest every hour if they want.
If I was playing a warlock in the OP's campaign I would have enough utility spells to be constantly casting them throughout the pottering about phase, getting short rests roughly every hour and using maybe 16 slots altogether. And when it's massive fight nova time then my long rest mates are bossing the fights while my two slots have done something significant and long-lasting while I spray the bad guys withheavy machine gun firesouped up eldritch blasts and other stuff that never runs out. I'd make out like a bandit! I certainly wouldn't be complaining about how many more slots the wizard gets!
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2018-02-13, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and warlock
IMO, any of the short rest focused classes will feel under-rated in the game you describe. That's not really a problem with the game, or the classes, it's just they are not suited to your current campaign. It's really no different than if you played a fighter or barbarian in a game where most of the problems were solved via magic.
Certain classes always have and always will work better for certain styles of play.I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2018-02-13, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
I disagree with the analogy.
The Warlock gets a lot more high level slots than the Wizard does. The Warlock will have an average of 6 highest level spell slots per long rest. That makes them the most heavy hitting of the full casters. Wizards will have many low level slots to compensate. They can cast more total spells but their spells have less impact.
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2018-02-13, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
One thing I didn't see mentioned yet that I believe has a very impactful effect: OP mentioned this campaign started in 4E and converted to 5e. Those are very different mechanics (not horribly well versed in 4th but this is my understanding).
If you changed games (4th E to 5th counts), but maintained character classes simply because they held the same name, you weren't setting yourself up for success. The character you had, isn't the character you have.
It sounds like you wanted to play either an EK, Paladin or Bladesinger, but played a Warlock instead.
I understand the frustration of not getting to continue a long campaign with the character you started with. I don't think this is the games' fault; I don't think it's really anyone's fault. You tried something and it didn't work out.
Ask the DM if you can switch to a class that plays more to your liking, and better represents the character you had in 4e.
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2018-02-13, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and warlock
Nitpick:
Game rules error.
You use your Bonus Action to activate Hexblade Curse. You can cast Eldritch Blast the same round, but you cannot Quicken it in that round because you have already used your Bonus Action.
Round 2: Casting Hex is a Bonus Action. Still unable to Quicken Eldritch Blast yet may cast it normally, but you will have Hex and Hexblade Curse active.
Round 3: Now you can Quicken Eldritch Blast with Hex and Hexblade Curse active.
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2018-02-13, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and warlock
Switching to Gritty Realism is a big help in making sure you get a couple short rests in between long rests.
Another one I like is something I stole from Adventures in Middle-Earth. For that game you need Safety from threat of attack, Comfort, and Tranquility for a long rest.
So in my campaign, sleep for 8 hours on the road might not get you the benefit of a long rest, though you will still need to bed down every night to avoid exhaustion. It's just a tool I use to make sure Short Rests happen, and short rest based Classes get their opportunity to shine.
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2018-02-13, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
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2018-02-13, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
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2018-02-13, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
This is patently false yes the lock can have 6 5th level slots BUT he only has 6 slots total
look at 10th level a warlock has 2 5th level slots so with 2 short rests thats 6 5th level or 6 slots total for the whole day, 6 spells
10th level wizard 2 5th, 3 4th, 3 3rd, 3 2nd and 4 1st for the sake of argument lets ditch the "lowly" first level spells the wizard has 11spell slots a wider variety of spells its just better in all ways thats11 fireballs8 fireballs if thats less impact i wanna see what you mean by impact
"but invocations" you mean the once a day powers that use spell slots? not worth it the warlock as written will never be anything but a dip class because it is awful after 6th and just ok from 3 to 6 it is one of the worst designed class in 5E. not saying it cant be fun or flavorful but the only worse class is the original ranger. the only way warlock becomes competitive is with houserulesLast edited by danpit2991; 2018-02-13 at 08:40 PM.
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2018-02-13, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
To be fair, a warlock CAN be competitive without houserules, and for the most part, the only invocation-based spells that use spell slots are the ones that scale with level (also, see below). The bulk of the invocation-based spells that don't scale with level are able to be cast without using spell slots.
Invocation spells with No Spell Slots used:- Speak with dead
- Arcane Eye
- Freedom of movement
- Jump
- Silent Image
- Alter Self
- Detect Magic
- Disguise self
- Water Breathing
- Speak with animals
- Mage Armor
Invocation Spells with Spell Slot used:- Bane
- Bestow curse
- Conjure Elemental
- Confusion
- Fireball via Kiss of Mephistopheles
Invocation spells that use a Spell slot but don't scale (These are likely restricted for power-level reasons):- Polymorph
- Slow
- Compulsion
Invocation Spells that could scale, but don't use spell slots (These are likely ALSO restricted for power-level reasons):- Hold Monster - You can actually use this more than once per long rest, but you can't target the same creature until after the long rest. However, it's limited to be used only targeting celestials, fiends, or elementals
- False Life - it explicitly states to be used at first level, and is great for early to mid level locks
- Invisibility - otherwise your party would always be invisible at all time. It was added in XGtE as a better version of UA's Shroud of Ulban
Always looking for critique of my 5E homebrew!
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2018-02-13, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
This is exactly what I said.
"but invocations" you mean the once a day powers that use spell slots? not worth it the warlock as written will never be anything but a dip class because it is awful after 6th and just ok from 3 to 6 it is one of the worst designed class in 5E. not saying it cant be fun or flavorful but the only worse class is the original ranger. the only way warlock becomes competitive is with houserules
There are a bunch of duds in there but also a bunch of very strong ones.
Warlock is very well designed and powerful, if a bit complicated. I like that a spellcaster with a different type of spell progression exists.
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2018-02-13, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
No.
Social and Exploration challenges should consume party resources. Maybe the guard needs to be bribed. (gold) Maybe they need to wait for their noble patron to catch up before they get to work. (time) Maybe they need to use magic to impress the king with their superb capabilities as adventurers. (spell slots) Maybe they need to out-drink the local thug to get him to open up about the carta's operations in the city. (HP/Gold/Time) Maybe getting to the tower requires you to forge through an intense thicket of razor vines. (HP)
If there are no resources being expended and/or no consequence/possibility of failure, these encounters are a waste of time.
Should I do a formal write-up of my rulings I made to make gritty realism work in 5e? IE, what I did to handle things like spell duration, magic item acquisition, and the like?
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2018-02-13, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
If you want to classify them as "party resources", Time/Gold/HP are consumed (and replenished) with the same rules across all classes. There are also Social challenges that can be overcome with skill checks (Persuasion/Deception/Intimidation/Insight) rather than bribery or magical displays.
The same with Environmental encounters. Intelligent uses of Nature/History/Survival checks can make finding a hidden cave easier. Creative uses of Acrobatics and Athletics skills can overcome a number of physical obstacles.
Not every encounter needs to deplete the party of a material resource (except perhaps Time, which passes regardless of activity)Last edited by Mister_Squinty; 2018-02-13 at 05:02 PM.
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2018-02-13, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and warlock
Ok well this sort of exploded on me sense I went to bad last night. And slightly morphed into something I didn't expect but IS a interesting discussion all the same.
There are far to many posts to response to individually at this point but I will do my best to address what topics I've noticed come out of this thread and try to clarify what my problem is when its not 3am.
First - yes my math was a little off in my examples. The point i was trying to get across though was that the Hex-blade subclass (at least I thought) was designed around having a more close quarters combat warlock vs a ranged blast lock. But looking at things no matter how you slice it. It feels like that a range blast lock will always preform better then a close combat lock. Though it seems in my griping I touch upon a much larger issue when it came to 5th's game design.
Second - The table I am at is mostly made up of me and 3 other friends who have been gaming together for about 10 years now and this game started in 4th over 6 years ago and was only switched over to 5th in the past year so as someone said 4th had a much different way of handling recharge and how spells worked. One we greatly enjoyed but as was said. Many did not so they have tried a new system. With how tactical 4th was having one big epic combat every so often didn't effect the party on a individual basis because everyone had the same mechanics and recharge rates. So its has become an issue in 5th ed for us.
Third - The more I think about it. The posts in this threads and from my own dealings in playing things for the past year in 5th at my table and online. The more I personally feel that while I love the bounded accuracy of 5th this split mechanic of short rest classes and long rest classes is not a good idea at all. It leads to the problem I am having and the issues expressed by those in this thread so far. For a system that is very open and extremely easy to home-brew for, this part of the system feels clunky and not in the spirit of the rest of the system. Yes the gritty long rest variant could be a help here but lets take the system as is without that rule. Most other mechanics at the core of 5th play nice and keep things within a certain range of each other most times. I don't like the idea of a short rest for an hour, it just seems silly in most cases that you would suddenly hunker down for an hour in between some fights just so you can recharge. I personally feel 4th ed's vs of short rest worked much better and made more sense to me at least.
The simply answer may be for us to go back to 4th but between the crappy rabbit hole that DND insider has been shoved down and how iffy silver light has become with the online builder. Its not a prospect I would look forward to. I know there is a ton of hate on 4th but for some of us it was really fun. Its all but dead in the water now when it comes to online tools and oh god the amount of books you would have to go through if you don't have a good virtual builder to help you.
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2018-02-13, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and warlock
For those arguing that the DMG recommends 6-8 encounters per day, please note that Jeremy Crawford has expressly said otherwise.
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2018-02-13, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
Let's assume that a 2nd level spell is twice as good as a 1st level spell, and that a 3rd level spell is 50% better than a second. In general, this is a very conservative estimate of power. Fireball is more than twice as good as burning hands, for instance.
Wizard 10:
1st: 4*1=4
2nd: 3*2=6
3rd: 3*3=9
4th: 3*4=12
5th: 2*5=10
AR:10
Total SP:51
Warlock 10:
5th: 6*5=30
Wizard is better at spellcasting, but it's nothing extreme, and as I said, this analysis vastly undervalues high-level spells. To further illustrate that point, the warlock has infinite casting of many useful low-level spells. It's very easy to picture an adventuring day where the warlock uses a first level spell equivalent without a slot more than ten times.
Nonetheless, let's agree that the wizard is the better full caster.
Let's look at everything that isn't casting.
Cantrips: Warlock clearly gets the better deal here.
Familiar: Warlock clearly gets the better deal here, if he wants it.
Hit Dice: Warlock clearly gets the better deal here.
Proficiencies: Warlock clearly gets the better deal here, with light armor and a better skill list.
Main Stat Synergy: CHA is actually used for several very important skills, CHA saves are more common and more important than INT saves.
Base class features: Wizard has arcane recovery, Warlock has invocations. Invocations are better
Subclass features: Wizard has the slight advantage here, in my estimation.
Overall, I do think that the warlock is a little weaker. But only a little.
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2018-02-13, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-02-13, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and warlock
Use the Gritty rest variant rule in the DMG, or turn all short-rest abilities into long-rest ones by multiplying them by 3 and taking away the recharge on a short rest.
Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2018-02-13, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and warlock
Or change how long it takes to get a short rest. For instance you could make your first short rest only takes 5 minutes, your second could take a still short but more noticeable 15 minutes (or choose the exact time that works for you) to achieve, and then all short rests after that take 1hr to compete. The fluffy idea of it is that it takes longer and longer to get your stamina back as you keep pushing yourself during the day but the 1st two rests are short enough that even in groups that do less encounters you should be able to get at least 1 SR and in most games 2 short rests with few problems which makes them compare more favorably to long rest classes while making the long term prospects to be similar to the RAW in terms of overall power of a short rest class.
Then the only games where a long rest class feels like it is really ahead are those that do one fight and then long rest which if common you will probably have problems with all sorts of things anyway.Last edited by MeeposFire; 2018-02-13 at 05:49 PM.
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2018-02-13, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
At 5th level the high level slot is 3, at 7th level it is 4, etc. Warlocks follow the same progression for high level slots as other full casters.
They still get them after 11 too, just not as many. Since the majority of the game takes place from 5-10 and most groups don't go much past that I don't see much of a problem with it. By Tier 4 the Warlock is probably falling behind, but game balance is all over the place by that point and it represents a very small amount of game play that it doesn't really matter.
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2018-02-13, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Hexblade warlock is powerful for the wrong reasons and underpowered as a pure cla
They get zero spell slots from the 6th-9th spell level. They can never upcast a spell of 5th level or higher.
Low level is 1-3, medium is 4-6, high-level spells are 6-9. Warlocks specifically acquire no spell slots of high level and instead get spell-like abilities.
The Warlock does not use the multiclass progression table, Has the Pact Magic feature, lacks the spellcasting feature and... You know all this already.
(I have to admit, I'm starting to think people that call Warlocks "Full Casters" are just trolling the rest of us)
People who actually play in the third and fourth tier spend most of their time playing at those levels. Advancement takes much longer the higher you go. Your individual gaming habits don't change that most of a character's chareer is in the higher tiers if you actually play the game through to 20th level. The first tier is mostly getting ready and scrambling for survival, the second teir is almost ready for the real game, at third tier your ready to play with the big boys, and the 4th you are one. The 5-10 levels is when you are getting the training wheels off and just starting to really come online.
My current long-running game took us about 10 game sessions to hit 5, 25 more approximately to 11th, and something like 50 to get us to the current 15. YMMV, but I doubt it would vary enough to say the 2nd tier saw the "majority" of play.Last edited by Matrix_Walker; 2018-02-13 at 06:58 PM.