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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazon View Post
    I swear to the Goddess half of the time I don't even understand what you are saying; Am I the only one?

    Anyway that's not how radical freedom works, radical freedom demands people to be free but also take full responsibility of their actions. There are rules and rituals created and validated by society that must be followed and respect, freedom doesn’t mean you are allowed to do anything, freedom means that the only person really responsible for your actions is you.

    If you use your radical freedom to kill someone you are responsible for that and must suffer the consequences of such choice.
    Must you? What if our friendly neighbourhood psychopathic murderer is smart enough to get away with it?

    The theory of radical freedom is a form of reductionism. All human decisions are reduced to the present instant, as if humans aren't motivated by things outside the instant and those motivations act as potent material causes (Aristotle) which weigh heavily in the mind. In the end, in some sense, the efficient cause of the mind, the freely willed cause, can make decisions, sometimes, when they're not being jerked by overwhelming floods of emotion, or physical reflexes (trained or otherwise), or simply a lack of a reason to care about being "good". Deny a person all reason to care about being good and they won't be good, no matter how much freedom you give them, no matter how long you run the experiment of their lives. So in that sense they are free only to be unfree in their freedom to act as they wish and in no other way.
    Last edited by Donnadogsoth; 2018-02-22 at 02:07 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnadogsoth View Post
    Must you?
    Must you what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnadogsoth View Post
    What if our friendly neighbourhood psychopathic murderer is smart enough to get away with it?
    What about it? What does that has to do with anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnadogsoth View Post
    The theory of radical freedom is a form of reductionism. All human decisions are reduced to the present instant, as if humans aren't motivated by things outside the instant and those motivations act as potent material causes (Aristotle) which weigh heavily in the mind. In the end, in some sense, the efficient cause of the mind, the freely willed cause, can make decisions, sometimes, when they're not being jerked by overwhelming floods of emotion, or physical reflexes (trained or otherwise), or simply a lack of a reason to care about being "good". Deny a person all reason to care about being good and they won't be good, no matter how much freedom you give them, no matter how long you run the experiment of their lives. So in that sense they are free only to be unfree in their freedom to act as they wish and in no other way.
    Well, what if there is no universal good?

    Anyway, it's not about being good it's about being the only one respibsible for your actions dispite how absurd life is.
    Last edited by Amazon; 2018-02-22 at 02:45 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliquid View Post
    This is still making the false assumption that people are only depressed because of external circumstances.

    You can't "accept a hurt for what it is", when there is no reason for the hurt other than a brain mis-firing.
    Maybe you should reread my post?

    I find it interesting that you bold "no reason" there, shows what cultures child you are.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Maybe you should reread my post?

    I find it interesting that you bold "no reason" there, shows what cultures child you are.
    maybe you should reread mine.

    I find it interesting that you either refuse to believe that someone could be constantly depressed due to a brain chemistry imbalance, or maybe you accept that, but you think they should just accept their lot in life and be constantly depressed.

    Most people experience depression as a result of depressing things happening. Some people (a minority) experience depression because their brain is lying to them. Your utter lack of compassion for the second group is disturbing.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliquid View Post
    I find it interesting that you either refuse to believe that someone could be constantly depressed due to a brain chemistry imbalance, or maybe you accept that, but you think they should just accept their lot in life(...)
    I'm sorry I'm not very experienced with depression, but I do have a father going thought severe dementia and a mother with what seems to have schizoaffective disorder so I have to ask...

    Isn't accepting that you have a problem a good thing? I know it was the hardest part of the treatment for my mother and after she was able to admit to herself she had a mental problem and that there was no shame in that she was able to start to get better.

    So, I'm sorry but I don't really get you point.
    I'm not a native english speaker and I'm dyslexic(that doesn't mean I have low IQ quite the opposite actually it means I make a lot of typos).

    So I beg for forgiveness, patience and comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    It's like somewhere along the way, "freedom of speech" became "all negative response is censorship".
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    As far as the "change your thinking" thing. It's worth noting that it's the basis for most cognitive therapy. The main thing is that "change your thinking" is super challenging and not very easy.
    My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.

    Sorry for any typos just forearm my wrist and am using voice to text on my phone.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by S@tanicoaldo View Post
    I'm sorry I'm not very experienced with depression, but I do have a father going thought severe dementia and a mother with what seems to have schizoaffective disorder so I have to ask...

    Isn't accepting that you have a problem a good thing? I know it was the hardest part of the treatment for my mother and after she was able to admit to herself she had a mental problem and that there was no shame in that she was able to start to get better.

    So, I'm sorry but I don't really get you point.
    Fair enough point. Yes, accepting you have a problem is the healthy thing to do. And in fact, I am saying the same thing (in a round about way). If you are clinically depressed (i.e. a mental illness), it is good to accept that, and not pretend that you just have "regular depression because of life events". It is also very important for your friends and family to accept the fact that you have a mental illness and support you accordingly.

    People insisting that you can get over all depression by thinking happy thoughts, and having a proper support network.... well those people cause the shame you speak of. They make a person who is suffering from clinical depression feel like they are a failure for not "just getting over it". They make that person feel like it is their fault.

    If someone is clinically depressed, there are medications that can help. Telling that person "you don't need medications, you just need to go for a jog along a forest trail and relax"... well that doesn't help. Making a person feel shame for using medications doesn't help.


    And I will stress again that the opposite happens too (probably more often). i.e. doctors prescribing antidepressants to someone who doesn't really need them.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliquid View Post
    .....
    People insisting that you can get over all depression by......

    The example that keeps leaping to my mind (besides the inmates at work, it's well known that imprisonment often results in depression), is of a Playgrounder who has kept posting about how therapy hasn't been helpful, and in reading her posts it is obvious that her stress is caused by her simply having too little money (poverty also is well known to cause depression), and because of that, therapy is likely hurtful for her because of its cost (in time if she is somehow getting treated for free).

    Really the whole "People just need to have better attitudes" mindset reminds me of...[rant]long diatribe that probably gets too close to advocating a political viewpoint][/rant].

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliquid View Post
    I find it interesting that you either refuse to believe that someone could be constantly depressed due to a brain chemistry imbalance, or maybe you accept that, but you think they should just accept their lot in life and be constantly depressed.
    To be concrete, I don't hold on to the believe that humans are equal and that there's a set of standard behavior or expected contribution to society, like being able to hold a job, or nonsense like constantly trying to better yourself and such.

    That said, I don't expect people with a serious mental or physical condition to perform anywhere near the level that someone without that condition would, they simply canīt and I don't blame them for it.
    Iīm also a strong proponent of free universal healthcare and see it as a tragedy that we force those with a condition that actually want to participate in society to pay for that, while itīs actually us that should look to include and support any member of our society, beginning with the weakest.

    But that also includes being realistic about it, on both sides of the fence. Someone with a clinical depression, form of dementia or whatever, starts at a disadvantage that maybe will never go away. There's no shame in admitting that and it would work well to reduce the stress and added burden that those afflicted feel for wanting to be just normal, accepting that they are normal within their parameters. Instead, high praise should go towards those that manage to overcome their affliction, instead treating that as normal and the others as losers of some kind.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    I agree with AMFV, the worst of the "positive thinking" kind of people, is that they foolishly assume it's oh-so-easy. And that anyone can do it. No, it's not for everybody, and it takes a lot of introspection and reshaping of the way you experience your world. If it's so hard for people with a certain amount of mental stability, I can't fathom how hard it would be for somebody who is already depressed. It's absurd, and I blame the New Age for it! Ok, not really, but still.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliquid View Post
    Fair enough point. Yes, accepting you have a problem is the healthy thing to do. And in fact, I am saying the same thing (in a round about way). If you are clinically depressed (i.e. a mental illness), it is good to accept that, and not pretend that you just have "regular depression because of life events". It is also very important for your friends and family to accept the fact that you have a mental illness and support you accordingly.

    People insisting that you can get over all depression by thinking happy thoughts, and having a proper support network.... well those people cause the shame you speak of. They make a person who is suffering from clinical depression feel like they are a failure for not "just getting over it". They make that person feel like it is their fault.

    If someone is clinically depressed, there are medications that can help. Telling that person "you don't need medications, you just need to go for a jog along a forest trail and relax"... well that doesn't help. Making a person feel shame for using medications doesn't help.


    And I will stress again that the opposite happens too (probably more often). i.e. doctors prescribing antidepressants to someone who doesn't really need them.
    I see your point and I agree with your point, but I think you still missed one fact: it doesn't have to be one or the other. Pills alone won't do crap if the patient insists on not changing certain behavioural pattern(s). This applies to most mental conditions I know of. I know one people or two who need to constantly live with antidepressants (among other things) and they still need to keep a more healthy life than me*, otherwise they still risk falling again in the loophole that springs their condition back to life (read as: stop the medication, or worse).

    And it's not like they actually want to stop taking the meds because they are so rebel, or because of their particular illness (they are not psychotic or delusional). It's because even when medication helps, they still are below average on certain aspects (they get very upset for the most absurd things, like breaking a diet or missing a work's day). So, support always helps. Always. For both groups. I don't know why you took Florian's post so badly. It just says that a supporting society is more helpful than a "You can do it, you can win!" kind of mentality. Which is ultimately true.

    I don't think you are in disagreement really, because a more supporting environment always helps. It is always the key (or one of them). Sure, a certain group of people also need pharmaceutical aid. Some of those, will be dependant for the rest of their lives. But they still need to avoid the stress like any other mortal. Meds won't turn anyone into a Uberschmen. Sadly

    *I'm not a paragon of health, but I think I'm pretty much average on that aspect.
    Last edited by Lord Joeltion; 2018-02-23 at 10:06 AM.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    To be concrete, I don't hold on to the believe that humans are equal and that there's a set of standard behavior or expected contribution to society, like being able to hold a job, or nonsense like constantly trying to better yourself and such.

    That said, I don't expect people with a serious mental or physical condition to perform anywhere near the level that someone without that condition would, they simply canīt and I don't blame them for it.
    Iīm also a strong proponent of free universal healthcare and see it as a tragedy that we force those with a condition that actually want to participate in society to pay for that, while itīs actually us that should look to include and support any member of our society, beginning with the weakest.

    But that also includes being realistic about it, on both sides of the fence. Someone with a clinical depression, form of dementia or whatever, starts at a disadvantage that maybe will never go away. There's no shame in admitting that and it would work well to reduce the stress and added burden that those afflicted feel for wanting to be just normal, accepting that they are normal within their parameters. Instead, high praise should go towards those that manage to overcome their affliction, instead treating that as normal and the others as losers of some kind.
    I agree with everything you say. I live somewhere with universal health care, and there is publicly funded support for people with chronic depression (even tax credits). There is no shame in talking openly about any mental health issues... society is far too hush-hush about such things, and that only makes it worse.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Joeltion View Post
    I agree with AMFV, the worst of the "positive thinking" kind of people, is that they foolishly assume it's oh-so-easy. And that anyone can do it. No, it's not for everybody, and it takes a lot of introspection and reshaping of the way you experience your world. If it's so hard for people with a certain amount of mental stability, I can't fathom how hard it would be for somebody who is already depressed. It's absurd, and I blame the New Age for it! Ok, not really, but still.



    I see your point and I agree with your point, but I think you still missed one fact: it doesn't have to be one or the other. Pills alone won't do crap if the patient insists on not changing certain behavioural pattern(s). This applies to most mental conditions I know of. I know one people or two who need to constantly live with antidepressants (among other things) and they still need to keep a more healthy life than me*, otherwise they still risk falling again in the loophole that springs their condition back to life (read as: stop the medication, or worse).

    And it's not like they actually want to stop taking the meds because they are so rebel, or because of their particular illness (they are not psychotic or delusional). It's because even when medication helps, they still are below average on certain aspects (they get very upset for the most absurd things, like breaking a diet or missing a work's day). So, support always helps. Always. For both groups. I don't know why you took Florian's post so badly. It just says that a supporting society is more helpful than a "You can do it, you can win!" kind of mentality. Which is ultimately true.

    I don't think you are in disagreement really, because a more supporting environment always helps. It is always the key (or one of them). Sure, a certain group of people also need pharmaceutical aid. Some of those, will be dependant for the rest of their lives. But they still need to avoid the stress like any other mortal. Meds won't turn anyone into a Uberschmen. Sadly
    I'm sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting that "drugs alone" can solve the problem. That wasn't my intent. Pharmaceuticals and depression are a messy combination. Getting the right drug and the right dosage is a huge challenge and requires lots of back and forth... a lot of which doesn't happen if the depressed person doesn't have a good friend or family member acting as an advocate on their behalf. Furthermore, yes the depressed person needs lots of other support to be healthy and remain healthy.

    My intent was to dispel the myth that everyone can get better without drugs. Florian's post seemed to be saying that (since it was in response to my post). But I quite easily could have jumped to conclusions.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: What proportion of people are happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliquid View Post
    My intent was to dispel the myth that everyone can get better without drugs. Florian's post seemed to be saying that (since it was in response to my post). But I quite easily could have jumped to conclusions.
    Apparently. There is a power to positive thinking and a change in attitude, that can generate some energy you'd otherwise not have - or more precisely, didn't think you'd have. Hope is a quite powerful emotion and it can help feeling happy at moments despite your current suffering, which can help move you forwards.

    Meds (and intensive therapy) are necessary to stabilize and maybe lift the patient to a certain emotional and cognitive level and keep him/her/they stable at that, but it canīt progress beyond that. Beyond that point, we're talking about "cognitive therapy" and/or a form of developed gnosis. These, again, work well with an marked positive attitude (developing) and can lead to more positive results for the patient.

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