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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    ETA:


    Hey, you forgot Shmi :-)
    I tend to as well. Virgin Marys just don't ring with me
    Whoops. I guess I'm just following the characters' example, haha.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    About representation. I will say it absolutely matters. l was a black nerd growing up in the 80s. I loved star was startrek lord of the rings. David edding. Lots of stuff.

    But while I could imagine myself in certain stories. I always felt alone in a lot of them. And it was incredibility common vto be made fun of for people saying I shouldn't even like those things because I was black.

    I had friends who's parents pushed them away from fantasy band SciFi because of those reasons but luckily my own family encouraged it.

    Still I'd latch onto many characters of color in movies and books. Because it made me feel like it wasn't wrong to like these things. That I too belonged in those worlds.

    So trust me representation damn well matters.
    Last edited by Devonix; 2018-03-08 at 04:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    About representation. I will say it absolutely matters. l was a black nerd growing up in the 80s. I loved star was startrek lord of the rings. David edding. Lots of stuff.

    But while I could imagine myself in certain stories. I always felt alone in a lot of them. And it was incredibility common vto be made fun of for people saying I shouldn't even like those things because I was black.

    I had friends who's parents pushed them away from fantasy band SciFi because of those reasons but luckily my own family encouraged it.

    Still I'd latch onto many characters of color in movies and books. Because it made me feel like it wasn't wrong to like these things. That I too belonged in those worlds.

    So trust me representation damn well matters.
    I don't think anyone is saying representation doesn't matter (and if they are, they're wrong). It's just that saying "X cannot identify with Y" is an unjust thing to say as a blanket statement (though it's worth noting that also was not said by any notable person as it pertains to this, at least not in this thread and not where it wasn't refuted).

    That said, I completely see where you're coming from. For instance, in Stranger Things Season 2, when they dress up as Ghostbusters, Mike shouldn't have just assumed that Lucas would be Winston, especially win Lucas didn't agree to it. Sure, it's actually a good physical representation of the main cast, but Lucas clearly didn't like Winston; Lucas wanted to be one of the scientists, and Mike pigeonholed him because he was black (although c'mon Lucas, Winston was hilarious and had one of the best lines. And in the same vein, Mike could have easily been Winston). Regardless of how Lucas felt, the underlying unspoken assumption was that he would be Winston, which he didn't want, and that really sucks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Its never that I couldn't identify with a different race or gender. Its SciFi. But actually having someone that looks like me and had an actual impact on the story as a hero. Well unless you've actually felt it. Its hard to describe how it makes you feel.

    Especially as a kid.
    Last edited by Devonix; 2018-03-08 at 04:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying representation doesn't matter (and if they are, they're wrong).
    I am. Different individuals make for different stories I suppose, but I find the representation thing to be a massive crock. Its about some kind of vague social change or vauge sense of feelgood justice with no impact on the real world.
    This is I feel something that has been IMPOSED. Repeat something ad-naseum and eventually, people will believe they need it. Most of Homeopathic medicine exists for this very reason.

    Now I do not believe in racial based discrimination when it comes too casting or such but an expectation of somekind of "vauge" need representation is just such rubbish in my mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    OT means ANH, ESB and RotJ, right?
    So we ignore Anakin, Yoda, Obi Wan and Luke and Leia, right?

    So let's see:
    Qui Gon: Male
    Mace Windu: Male
    "Tower-Head-Guy" (from High Council): male
    Mace Windu's strike force: male

    Let's look at the evil side as well (I'll ignore Palpatine for obvious reasons):
    Darth Maul: male
    Count Dooku: male

    So, talking "important" characters only (i.e. people with names and who say lines), i'd say it's 2/2 misses on the light side, and 2/2 misses on the dark side of the force, for a score of 4/4 misses.

    Have I forgot someone important?

    For fun, I also checked the Jedi High Council on wookipedia:
    Yes, there are actually a couple females in there - they appear in the movies for about a second each - or something like that.
    If I counted correctly, the Jedi High Council is 3:10 (excluding the "set" members Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan)
    Hey that was fun. Let's do some more.
    Let's look at the female characters that we have (the ones who say more than one sentence).

    Padme: needed to be female (Anakin's wife and mother of Leia and Luke)
    Shmi: needed to be female (Anakin's mother)
    Padme's double: needed to be female to perform as double
    The female assassin: I think she already is a stretch. She is neither important nor clearly female (shapehifter).

    So to summarizes what we have so far:

    All female characters are female because they needed to be female.
    All characters that could have worked with either gender were decided to be male.

    It's Hollywood at its finest :-)
    I don't think it's bad intent, myself. I think it's just the usual "default gender = male" at work.



    Re: Representation
    The funny thing is how representation could be so easy to achieve, with little or no downside in most media. But for some reason, producers rather ignore huge parts of the population and do without their money.
    My favourite example: Magic the Gathering. I played the sh*t out of that game, and it is a great game.
    A huge part of its success is that had - from the get-go - a lot of (soft) cheesecake for young male adults *cough angels cough cough*
    On the other hand, the number of *hot* male pictures - to attract potential female buyers - can be counted with one hand. After 20 years. Yes, they *try* to make MtG attractive for girls and women since a couple of years. Yes, there are quite a few female players these days. But the number one attractor that drew SOOOO many people into the game? Nope. Let's see if 25th anniverary changes things....

    Same with Star Wars. Girls find it boring to watch the boys play. And that's exactly what happens in Star Wars I-VI. We were just talking about the prequels: What doesn Padme acitvely do in these 3 movies? I'd personally argue that she is *little* more than window dressing after the palace raid in Phantom Menace.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2018-03-08 at 05:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    I am. Different individuals make for different stories I suppose, but I find the representation thing to be a massive crock. Its about some kind of vague social change or vauge sense of feelgood justice with no impact on the real world.
    This is I feel something that has been IMPOSED. Repeat something ad-naseum and eventually, people will believe they need it. Most of Homeopathic medicine exists for this very reason.

    Now I do not believe in racial based discrimination when it comes too casting or such but an expectation of somekind of "vauge" need representation is just such rubbish in my mind.
    I don't really give a hoot about it; one could write a book and roll a die to determine race, gender, etc., and if it's a good book, I won't much care. If other people care, then I see nothing wrong with it. And other people absolutely care. SMBC is a perfect analogy of this; there are all sorts of people in the comic, and I never even noticed there were things like, for instance, interracial homosexual couples in a strip about relationships until it was pointed out to me. If it makes interracial homosexual people excited that they can be represented, yay for that, who the hell am I to say boo?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-03-08 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Typo corrections
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If other people care, then I see no nothing wrong with it. And other people absolutely care. SMBC is a perfect analogy of this; there are all sorts of people in the comic, and I never even noticed there were things like, for instance, interracial homosecual couples in a strip about relationships until it was pointed out to me. If it makes interracial homosexual people excited that they can be represented, yay for that, who the hell am I to say boo?
    Because representation is represenation. Is that Women to fragile of a personality? Sexist. Or not sexist, or tripple ripple, subversion sexist. Is that mexican too mexican or not mexican enough?
    Im not against any character, Im against the DEMANDS of representation as well as the belief that representation is somekind of social good (When there really is no evidence for such).

    Again, I think this is mainly an issue thats been enforced by social groups that make billions of dollars from this industry (And Im not kidding here, I worked in such an envrionment and "Social Progress" is talked about in the way somebody talks about a salmon farm). It is in their best interest that these conflicts are never resolved and move to heat the flames of war at every opportunity. Their jobs literally depends on your strife so why would they ever sell you the cure instead of a placebo.

    I never had an issue with SMBC, and good on them to make whatever content they want. But what if somebody just makes a ...say game say...based on polish Legends or something. So does it now have to have black people in it?

    Does it mean that Mexican stories have to have Spaniards in it for representation perposes? Of course then this falls into abstract notions of justice and no scientifically recorded social benefit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post

    Does it mean that Mexican stories have to have Spaniards in it for representation perposes? Of course then this falls into abstract notions of justice and no scientifically recorded social benefit.
    No one really asking for representation is asking for this. One of the biggest issues I have is that when Representation does happen. Authors get badgered for " Pandering " People say " Let people write about whoever they want to write about without people forcing inclusion or representation.

    But what usually happens is that an author writes a story using inclusion or representation and people complain about it saying that they're giving in to pressure. If they really cared about author freedom they'd shut up and let them put however many gay, lesbian, trans, Minnesotans, whatever they want in their story.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    No one really asking for representation is asking for this.
    Yes, they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralex View Post
    A little condescending
    That pretty much sums up the Scowling Dragon experience.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    No cause is so noble that it won't attract fuggheads, as Niven put it. And pop culture has always been in the business of identity matching--representation is not some new invasion of identity politics into pop media, it's just a shift in a long-extant dynamic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Also, Rey was not the principal agent of Snoke's death. Kylo was. Rey's only role in that was, as it turned out, an unwitting distraction. If anything, the movie doesn't give Rey enough agency in TLJ--but that's the opposite of a Mary Sue criticism.
    Indeed. Honestly, I'd argue that the whole Mary Sue criticism is blowing Rey's actual problems out of proportion. Yes, her progression as far as acquiring her force powers makes no sense as written, that's a totally fair criticism. But beyond that? If anything, she hasn't done anything meaningful for the past two films, despite being the nominal main character.

    Did she deliver BB-8 to the Resistance? Nope, Han, Chewie, and Finn did, because she got captured.
    Did she destroy Starkiller Base? Nope, Han, Chewie, and Poe were the main agents there.
    Did she find Luke? After R2 and BB-8 gave her a map that lead right to him, sure, but anyone could have at that point.
    Did her finding Luke accomplish anything? Not really - she got very minimal training from him due to his reluctance, failed to convince him to help her or the Resistance (Yoda's spirit did that), then flew off to try and turn Kylo.
    Did she turn Kylo? Nope, not even close. And she almost got killed in the process, and did wind up letting Snoke learn Luke's location.
    Did she kill Snoke? Nope, Kylo did.
    Did she save the other Resistance members? If moving some rocks counts, I guess. But Chewie could probably have blasted them away with the Falcon if they'd had to.

    Really, all she's done that was particularly noteworthy at this point is get captured by and then escape the First Order twice - one of which was intentional. And with the level of competence they've displayed as villains, I'm not sure even that's all that noteworthy. Even when she's beaten Kylo in a fight, all it's accomplished (besides making him look bad) is letting her escape. It seems very hard to me to credit claims that she's a Mary Sue when that's the sum total of her accomplishments. Poorly-written progression into her force abilities, sure, I agree with that wholeheartedly, but that alone doesn't strike me as enough to lob that criticism at her.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Again, the actual thing she says is very different. In fact, this time it's completely the opposite: Kennedy is talking about how there used to be an assumption about boys identifying with boys and girls identifying with girls (which is, admittedly, probably an overstatement), and how studios are waking up to the fact that little girls and little boys do identify with lots of different characters of different genders/races/etc.

    Fans are literally interpreting Kennedy saying that girls can relate to Luke as saying that girls can't relate to Luke. Then Peelee only hears the secondhand version and now this is his impression of Kathleen Kennedy, regardless of the facts. This is why I'm always asking for citations.
    I don't think that's what she's saying actually. She says she thinks there was an assumption that girls can't identify with boys and vice versa. Then she says that culturally there is movement and momentum where those lines are being blurred and people are recognizing that little girls are crossing over into identifying with all sorts of characters. And she goes on to say that as the storytellers, they shouldn't create those boundaries. They should just make a story and let whoever enjoys it enjoy it.

    So what does this mean? Why the opening line about the assumption? Was it a wrong assumption? She says there is movement and momentum and those lines are being blurred? Which lines? The assumptions people were making? Or boys and girls identifying with only same-sex characters? Well the next line says people are recognizing that little girls are crossing over and identifying with all sorts of characters.

    I'm sorry, but it sounds like she's saying that now people are identifying with characters of different genders, but weren't before. In other words, now girls can be Luke, not Princess Leia. Otherwise, what is she saying? What did the original movies do to set up those boundaries? Nothing. The OT was made for everyone. But she's saying that there is some cultural momentum and things are changing. So if it's not the people making the movie, then it must be the girls that are crossing over into identifying with all sorts of characters (rebel warriors and jedi-in-training and not just princesses or "characters in other movies along those lines").

    She is justifying the choice to make the protagonist of Rogue One and TFA a woman and not a princess. She is not repudiating the assumption in the opening line, she is explaining why Lucas made the scoundrel and the jedi men, and the princess a woman, and putting forth that things are changing now (girls can identify with different tropes) and production studios shouldn't limit themselves to those stereotypes.

    ETA: I forgot to say... you're still keeping me honest because I mischaracterized what she is saying anyway, so thank you for that.
    Last edited by Dr.Samurai; 2018-03-08 at 08:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    The assumption refers to how the creative community used to view demographic appeal; it is within that community that the culture shift is described as taking place. The whole statement is creator-centered: the audience is the object of their misconceived assumption and subsequent recognition. It's not a statement about boys and girls beginning to identify with more kinds of characters (though it doesn't strictly exclude that possibility).

    And while I did acknowledge that what Kennedy says about the assumption might be an overstatement, it's not really a controversial statement that Star Wars was originally targeted at boys and young men. Time Magazine goes so far as to say that Star Wars was a major reason that demographic became the movie industry's go-to blockbuster target for the past 40 years.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2018-03-08 at 09:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Lethologica, based on that assumption and the conclusion she's drawing, it would suggest that Star Wars was made the way it was specifically for those reasons. Do you think that's true?

    Did George Lucas make Luke a boy because he wanted boys to identify with the protagonist and assumed they could only do that if the protagonist were male? Likewise, he wanted girls to identify with the protagonist in the rebel alliance so he made that character a female?

    Because if so I'll concede the point. I just don't know it to be true and the article you posted only talks about the impact Star Wars had, not that it deliberately aimed at a target audience and did so based on erroneous assumptions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Lethologica, based on that assumption and the conclusion she's drawing, it would suggest that Star Wars was made the way it was specifically for those reasons. Do you think that's true?

    Did George Lucas make Luke a boy because he wanted boys to identify with the protagonist and assumed they could only do that if the protagonist were male? Likewise, he wanted girls to identify with the protagonist in the rebel alliance so he made that character a female?

    Because if so I'll concede the point. I just don't know it to be true and the article you posted only talks about the impact Star Wars had, not that it deliberately aimed at a target audience and did so based on erroneous assumptions.
    Luke was a female for like two different drafts of the first movie. Just like Obi-Wan was originally meant to be Toshiro Mifune and Han Solo was meant to be eight feet tall and bright green. Lucas never actually cared about the race, gender, or even species of the characters he was writing. It was all interchangeable to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Oh come on.
    How many female Jedi do you really see doing something in the prequels?
    I admit that I was wrong in the sense that I didn't remember a single one being shown on screen apart from one in front of the Jedi temple.

    But that doesn't change the fact that no female Jedi had a *role* in the prequel movies.
    Because basically no jedi besides Obi-Wan and Yoda actually did much of substance in the prequels besides maybe Mace and Qui-Gonn for the one movie he appeared in. Mace only even exists because he was the prototype for what became Obi-Wan and George likes to use old concepts.

    This is where the problem is, essentially. People forget that Star Wars may have a large scale, but at the end of the day it's a personal story about a dude, his old father figure, and his son. The actual war and the jobs they perform are secondary to that, hence why they can just kind of leave whenever they want and come back when the plot demands. You don't see many female jedi because there are maybe half a dozen characters that matter per trilogy and maybe one or two in a movie will be a Jedi.

    I bet that most viewers wouldnt remember there being any female Jedi, just like me.

    How many sentences were said by female Jedi in all of the prequels?
    How many names of female Jedi can we learn from the movies?
    How many lightsabre duels with female Jedi can we watch in the movies.

    Maybe George Lucas liked the design of fem-Jedi, but the prequel movies were a sausage festivity.
    How many Jedi at all had a speaking role in the prequels? A couple of them had one or two lines, but the narrative weight is carried by a handful of characters. Because again, Star Wars is meant to be a personal story, not this big sweeping LOTR style thing where epic individuals come and go.
    Last edited by Jayngfet; 2018-03-08 at 10:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Lethologica, based on that assumption and the conclusion she's drawing, it would suggest that Star Wars was made the way it was specifically for those reasons. Do you think that's true?

    Did George Lucas make Luke a boy because he wanted boys to identify with the protagonist and assumed they could only do that if the protagonist were male? Likewise, he wanted girls to identify with the protagonist in the rebel alliance so he made that character a female?

    Because if so I'll concede the point. I just don't know it to be true and the article you posted only talks about the impact Star Wars had, not that it deliberately aimed at a target audience and did so based on erroneous assumptions.
    I'm not sure what this even has to do with the original point (which was...something to do with mocking representation as a facet of content creation/consumption? *shrug*). I was mostly interested in making sure Kennedy wasn't misrepresented.

    No, I don't have the grounds to assert anything about what Lucas' intentions were. (I'm rather dubious about Jayngfet's, but at least he's trying.) And even if I could, his weren't the only fingers on the product, not to mention the marketing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Any major character from the films is more popular than any major character from TCW/Rebels. I would wager that Jar Jar is more popular among fans than Ahsoka, in the sense of more people knowing about and liking him. Having a female Jedi as a film protagonist is thus a significant step despite the existence of TCW.

    And the prequels were just a sausage-fest in general. After Padme (and her double), the next most significant female character was...the discount assassin? The head librarian? One of the Jedi cut down in the Order 66 montage?
    When I said Ahsoka probably is more popular among SW fans than Rey, I was thinking of old fans in general; excluding all the potential new fans the movies vould have spawned (sorry for not having specified; but that was my line of thought). I don't deny Rey importance among fans of the ST in general; but not every fan of SW (and specifically, those fans hardcore enough to having watched TCW series) likes Rey, or prefers her over other female characters.

    Of course, if we include every fan who hasn't watched the seires; it's kinda probable Rey wins the contest, but that's why I added the part where I mention "Rey isn't the female characters fans were craving for". New fans, or fans who never watched TCW, of course don't care about Ahsoka at all, I thought that was an overstatement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    OT means ANH, ESB and RotJ, right?
    So we ignore Anakin, Yoda, Obi Wan and Luke and Leia, right?

    So let's see:
    Qui Gon: Male
    Mace Windu: Male
    "Tower-Head-Guy" (from High Council): male
    Mace Windu's strike force: male

    Let's look at the evil side as well (I'll ignore Palpatine for obvious reasons):
    Darth Maul: male
    Count Dooku: male

    So, talking "important" characters only (i.e. people with names and who say lines), i'd say it's 2/2 misses on the light side, and 2/2 misses on the dark side of the force, for a score of 4/4 misses.

    Have I forgot someone important?

    For fun, I also checked the Jedi High Council on wookipedia:
    Yes, there are actually a couple females in there - they appear in the movies for about a second each - or something like that.
    If I counted correctly, the Jedi High Council is 3:10 (excluding the "set" members Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan)

    ETA:

    Hey, you forgot Shmi :-)
    I tend to as well. Virgin Marys just don't ring with me
    Well, I was defending the Jedi Order about being a sausage fest. I think I admited the movie is a lil too testosteroney. Also, I would give Mace and Qui Gon a pass, because I'm dead sure they were chosen specifically for their actors, not because of character design (both were not only the "best actors"* of the whole cast, but also two staple badasses during that decade). I think the High Council is the real missed opportunity, but weighing how relevant those characters were (basically background reference), I think Lucas at least tried the best he could, given his constrains (there were too many characters already in the movie to introduce more).

    Besides, I think if we want to criticize the franchise as a whole; OT and ST are more to blame about SW being too male focused, when compared to TCW series and the PT. As I said before, the prequels had to match the already established lore, so their fault is lessened by that fact. Yet the PT made an effort to show more variety on the background, which was at least good faith/nice try.

    OT only has two female characters that are truly relevant for the saga: Leia and Mon Mothma. The rest are less than background females (I can't really think of anyone other than the poor Twi'lek slave).This one at least gets a pass because of the constraints of the era (having Leia wielding a weapon was bold enough).

    The ST has a little more variety: Phasma, Rey, Rose, Holdo and Leia again. Those are the prominent characters who have some extent of narrative agency (and I'm being too generous with Phasma). Still better than the previous, but it is still a minority among the full cast of main characters: Luke, Han, Poe, Finn, Kylo, Chewie, Gollum, Hux, DJ. 5 vs 9. It isn't all that different from the Council, isn't it?

    I know, I know, I'm uncluding old cahracters when judging the new movies, but that's only because unlike the prequels, the writers didn't have the constrain of having to give those characters so much spotlight when it came to the plot (they could still have the same spotlight without affecting the plot directly). When it comes to purely new characters, it's anout 4 fem vs 6 males; and I think that number is about as ideal as it can get. The thing is, that same proportion is the one TCW and Rebels managed to get, but nobody ever cared about. I think that is alittle unfair for the franchise. I mean, sure, movies have potentially bigger audiences; but it's stealing some of the credit to those creators that came before the new movies. And don't even get me started on EU writers**! I think Rey is more the final result of previous work than "pioneering" anything in the franchise. Or maybe I'm just THAT nitpicky and fanboy

    *At least on paper.
    **The good ones.
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    I would like to remind everyone that popularity polls are a thing, and Star Wars has literal dozens by every publication and by Lucasfilm.

    Rey is in fact more popular than Jar Jar ...by one percent. When it comes to more specific polls like all padawans, Ahsoka actually beat everyone, including Obi-Wan and Anakin. Then you have this Dorkly polls, where Darth Revan beat every prequel character except Darth Maul and Qui-Gonn. Then you have this poll, where people would literally rather vote for Palpatine twice than vote for Rey, who still barely beat Revan, a guy from a game that came out like fifteen years ago. Or this one, where Rey is struggling to beat Admiral Ackbar.

    The results of the two polls can't really be conflated to mean Ahsoka is more popular than Rey, since she generally places higher than Ahsoka when they're both on a poll, but there's a difference in expectations. We expect Ahsoka to do poorly. Her only appearances are on two of the lowest rated tv channels for their demographics(one of which is only extended cable to begin with), and on the one movie in the series hated more than the holiday special. Rey, meanwhile, is the face of a film trilogy and is supposed to be as important as Luke or Anakin. She's the one on all the ads and posters around the world. For her to struggle to be in someone's top fifteen, nevermind top ten, is very telling.

    This is also a big part of why The Last Jedi got so many bad reviews, and why so many people are iffy on IX. Luke is one of the most beloved characters in cinema, and across the whole franchise there are many two or three people who can match him even on just a poll. In terms of actual hard numbers Luke sells more toys than anyone else except maybe Vader or Boba Fett. Every single person who's in the usual top five is dead now. This is why toy sales for The Last Jedi dropped like a stone. If the audience feels the character they like is being shafted to push another they don't, they aren't going to play along.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Indeed. Honestly, I'd argue that the whole Mary Sue criticism is blowing Rey's actual problems out of proportion. Yes, her progression as far as acquiring her force powers makes no sense as written, that's a totally fair criticism. But beyond that? If anything, she hasn't done anything meaningful for the past two films, despite being the nominal main character.

    [...]
    This is so good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Joeltion View Post
    [...]


    Well, I was defending the Jedi Order about being a sausage fest. I think I admited the movie is a lil too testosteroney. Also, I would give Mace and Qui Gon a pass, because I'm dead sure they were chosen specifically for their actors, not because of character design (both were not only the "best actors"* of the whole cast, but also two staple badasses during that decade). I think the High Council is the real missed opportunity, but weighing how relevant those characters were (basically background reference), I think Lucas at least tried the best he could, given his constrains (there were too many characters already in the movie to introduce more).
    Before I read the rest I want to say one thing:
    I really really don't understand - or completely disagree - with your reason for giving Mace and Qui Gon a pass. Why do you think it's a good excuse for them being male (if George wanted female Jedi, as you said)?
    I don't get it.
    For example, I was really big on Angelina Jolie at that time. I think she would have been awesome wielding a lightsabre. Could have easily replaced Mace. Or Qui Gon.
    And there were several other female actresses who were A) very good and B) very popular at the time. You could just as easily say "Well, we can't do our movie without THOSE, now can we?"
    Besides, even if you wanted the two boys in your movie, how about giving them other roles?

    So I just don't understand your reasoning.
    Maybe I'm to too stupid or just don't understand your language.

    When you make a movie, you consider the story, then what roles/characters you need, and then you find the actors who you think are good for the roles you decided.
    Pardon me if I misunderstand, but you make it seem that George was like "Hmmm I HAVE to use these two guys, so what can I do? Alright, these two are the other two named Jedi who do something on screen"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I would like to remind everyone that popularity polls are a thing, and Star Wars has literal dozens by every publication and by Lucasfilm.
    [...]
    This is also a big part of why The Last Jedi got so many bad reviews, and why so many people are iffy on IX. Luke is one of the most beloved characters in cinema, and across the whole franchise there are many two or three people who can match him even on just a poll. In terms of actual hard numbers Luke sells more toys than anyone else except maybe Vader or Boba Fett. Every single person who's in the usual top five is dead now. This is why toy sales for The Last Jedi dropped like a stone. If the audience feels the character they like is being shafted to push another they don't, they aren't going to play along.
    I don't care much about polls either way unless they are extremely well done to avoid bias.

    But your last paragraph, that is SOOOO damn true!

    Although, a Mary Poppins Leia would be a funny toy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    This is so good.




    Before I read the rest I want to say one thing:
    I really really don't understand - or completely disagree - with your reason for giving Mace and Qui Gon a pass. Why do you think it's a good excuse for them being male (if George wanted female Jedi, as you said)?
    I don't get it.
    For example, I was really big on Angelina Jolie at that time. I think she would have been awesome wielding a lightsabre. Could have easily replaced Mace. Or Qui Gon.
    And there were several other female actresses who were A) very good and B) very popular at the time.
    Besides, even if you wanted the two boys in your movie, how about giving them other roles?

    So I just don't understand your reasoning.
    Maybe I'm to too stupid or just don't understand your language.

    When you make a movie, you consider the story, then what roles/characters you need, and then you find the actors who you think are good for the roles you decided.
    Pardon me if I misunderstand, but you make it seem that George was like "Hmmm I HAVE to use these two guys, so what can I do? Alright, these two are the other two named Jedi who do something on screen"
    George reuses old ideas. It's how he works. He's very thrifty when personally designing and creating anything. A lot of the prequels designs were concepts he had, but couldn't execute or had to drop during the original trilogy. Chief among them was Mace Windu, a character he'd developed very early on and wound up turning into what became Obi-Wan, even if most of the details of Mace changed, he had an idea of what Mace was meant to be(and of course the stuff rejected in the second go-around just got used later in The Clone Wars for other characters). Lucas had some idea of what he was working with and bascially just modified the concept until it was working with. He casts actors for characters, he doesn't write scripts around actors. The only character who was made for The Phantom Menace specifically that was also a jedi and a major character was Qui-Gonn. But by the time Neeson became involved he'd worked through a number of versions of the character and arrived at the conclusion that this is what he needed the character to be, and Neeson had to work within that frame or else convince Lucas to accept his ideas.

    Lucas is famous as a director for being controlling and highly specific. When he made the first Star Wars movie he'd get 20 takes of shots most directors would do in one or two. He explicitly said at the time that he constructed the whole process in a way that it'd fall apart if it didn't have his direct input on a daily basis at every stage of the process. He was still trying to make new edits of it as the films came out. He has a difficult time ceding any kind of power or creative control. If you want to know why any of the films were the way they were it ultimatley boils down to "George Lucas wanted it this way, and how he arrived at this conclusion mostly exists in his own head". That's why Jake Lloyd got the part of young Anakin, Lucas had an idea for the character and changed it and wouldn't take no for an answer.

    And speaking as a similarly controlling filmmaker just starting out, I get it. I've gotten into arguments with producers over little details. I'm doing preproduction on my own film and I'm insisting on everything being a specific way, to the point where I'm insisting on physically drawing and designing myself. When it comes to casting unless the executive producer insists, there won't even be a discussion of changing who the characters are on any level(and I fully intend to fight every step of the way if necessary). If the end result doesn't tick off every box on someone's list, tough. It's my vision, not yours.
    Last edited by Jayngfet; 2018-03-09 at 02:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    (snip)

    This is also a big part of why The Last Jedi got so many bad reviews, and why so many people are iffy on IX. Luke is one of the most beloved characters in cinema, and across the whole franchise there are many two or three people who can match him even on just a poll. In terms of actual hard numbers Luke sells more toys than anyone else except maybe Vader or Boba Fett. Every single person who's in the usual top five is dead now. This is why toy sales for The Last Jedi dropped like a stone. If the audience feels the character they like is being shafted to push another they don't, they aren't going to play along.
    Thank you for providing actual numbers. Yeah, those were the kind of "popularity polls" my brain was thinking of when writing my post. I also belief they don't support any objective opinion, or that they demonstrate any fact, of course. Still, Ahsoka is surprisingly popular among "hardcore" fans (i.e: those who watched the series). Only other EU character that fares even better than her is probably Revan because, well, KOTOR is the best Star Wars storyline ever PERIOD. And besides, Ahsoka's race has one of the best designs in all of Star Wars after Darth Maul.

    That part about Rey is why I have this strong impression that the way she is handled in the movie hurts her popularity among fans way more than the fact that she is a woman. I seriously believe that if she were a man, most of her detractors would still reject her, and he popularity would remain about the same (because in the end, those who hate her for being female will be balanced out by those who like her for that sole reason).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Before I read the rest I want to say one thing:
    I really really don't understand - or completely disagree - with your reason for giving Mace and Qui Gon a pass. Why do you think it's a good excuse for them being male (if George wanted female Jedi, as you said)?
    I don't get it.
    No, no, no. I didn't say Lucas wanted more female Jedi. I said he at least made an attempt to wash out the sausage fest with background characters (whether that is better or worse, it's up for another debate). The reason I give Samuel Jackson and Liam Neeson a pass, is because they are mother****in Neeson and Jackson. Both are terrific actors of about the same calibre, who share certain memetic traits among fans of action films. I can safely assume those were chosen because of their names and memetic properties. I might be wrong about Neesom though, because his case wasn't so evident as Jackson, and because he didn't come memetic enough until years later. But the point is, they weren't the best choice for Mace Windu or Qui-Gon. In fact, you can tell their performance isn't the best in their careers because the characters actually don't suit them all too well. Yet they are there because, who else can be as imposing as those two on the same roles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    For example, I was really big on Angelina Jolie at that time. I think she would have been awesome wielding a lightsabre. Could have easily replaced Mace. Or Qui Gon.
    Sure, anyone can play either character. It's just that Angelina won't be as imposing as Samuel or Liam. If Lucas was looking for a hardcore badass action role, who wouldn't come off as cartoonishly as Schwarzenegger or any other 80's action star; then Liam and Samuel are probably the best choices of the time. If we had more action actresses like we have now (or if Haley Berry wasn't so young at the time) then yeah, I agree would would have a better female pick. I don't think Angelina fitted the same target. She can be badass, but is a more Femme Fatale badass; not a Pragmatic Antihero badass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    And there were several other female actresses who were A) very good and B) very popular at the time. You could just as easily say "Well, we can't do our movie without THOSE, now can we?"
    Besides, even if you wanted the two boys in your movie, how about giving them other roles?
    Very good? Yeah. But most of them wouldn't even fit the action hero role. So they woulnd't have fit Qui-Gon or Mace's role. Very popular? Also yeah. Few of them could probably play a female badass. But they lack the same profile Neeson and Jackson do. They would have provided a different kind of (female) Mace Windu and Qui-Gon. Unless they somehow cloned Sigourney Weaver (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    So I just don't understand your reasoning.
    Maybe I'm to too stupid or just don't understand your language.
    Don't feel bad. 11/10 it's my fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    When you make a movie, you consider the story, then what roles/characters you need, and then you find the actors who you think are good for the roles you decided.
    Pardon me if I misunderstand, but you make it seem that George was like "Hmmm I HAVE to use these two guys, so what can I do? Alright, these two are the other two named Jedi who do something on screen"
    I don't think that was his particular reasoning. He obviously needed stars for the films. Ewan McGregor wasn't a big one and Natalie Portman was too young to back the first movie alone. Christopher Lee wouldn't join till later. That's why I think they targeted older actors of the era who could support the first movie, but wouldn't play a central role on the screen so they wouldn't outshine the real main characters. That's Reason nº1 I believe Windu and Qui-Gon required stars of the target Jackson and Neeson could fit. Reason nº2 is what I explained before, the roles were for badass action heroes; so the actors needed to be able to show that. And I can't think of many who could possibly make a better job than them (specially considering the poor directing skills and the poor writing of the script). MAYBE Lt. Ripley and Sarah Connors are similar roles to Master Windu and Master Jinn. But probably the actresses who played them weren't considered for the role because their popularity was fading away, unlike the other two.

    tl;dr: I don't believe Samuel Jackson and Liam Neeson were chosen because they had a weiner; but because of how imposing they can be on the big screen. I don't believe there were better choices on that aspect at the time, female or not.

    EDIT (below)
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sam Jackson is not anywhere near Liam Neeson. I love Jackson, but c'mon man. Neeson took a wooden character and rocked it. Jackson took a wooden character and thought, "oak or hickory?"
    That's precisely why I was talking about the reasons for them being cast, and not their actual performances. Both suffered the same "not much of a character syndrome" and turned out to feel kinda like fish out of the water, when compared with their other movies (unlike Christopher Lee, who simply chews the scenery, the puppets, the CGI and three Death Star beams).
    Last edited by Lord Joeltion; 2018-03-09 at 10:39 AM.
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    Sam Jackson is not anywhere near Liam Neeson. I love Jackson, but c'mon man. Neeson took a wooden character and rocked it. Jackson took a wooden character and thought, "oak or hickory?"
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-03-09 at 10:35 AM.
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    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Joeltion View Post
    Thank you for providing actual numbers. Yeah, those were the kind of "popularity polls" my brain was thinking of when writing my post. I also belief they don't support any objective opinion, or that they demonstrate any fact, of course. Still, Ahsoka is surprisingly popular among "hardcore" fans (i.e: those who watched the series). Only other EU character that fares even better than her is probably Revan because, well, KOTOR is the best Star Wars storyline ever PERIOD. And besides, Ahsoka's race has one of the best designs in all of Star Wars after Darth Maul.

    That part about Rey is why I have this strong impression that the way she is handled in the movie hurts her popularity among fans way more than the fact that she is a woman. I seriously believe that if she were a man, most of her detractors would still reject her, and he popularity would remain about the same (because in the end, those who hate her for being female will be balanced out by those who like her for that sole reason).



    No, no, no. I didn't say Lucas wanted more female Jedi. I said he at least made an attempt to wash out the sausage fest with background characters (whether that is better or worse, it's up for another debate). The reason I give Samuel Jackson and Liam Neeson a pass, is because they are mother****in Neeson and Jackson. Both are terrific actors of about the same calibre, who share certain memetic traits among fans of action films. I can safely assume those were chosen because of their names and memetic properties. I might be wrong about Neesom though, because his case wasn't so evident as Jackson, and because he didn't come memetic enough until years later. But the point is, they weren't the best choice for Mace Windu or Qui-Gon. In fact, you can tell their performance isn't the best in their careers because the characters actually don't suit them all too well. Yet they are there because, who else can be as imposing as those two on the same roles?



    Sure, anyone can play either character. It's just that Angelina won't be as imposing as Samuel or Liam. If Lucas was looking for a hardcore badass action role, who wouldn't come off as cartoonishly as Schwarzenegger or any other 80's action star; then Liam and Samuel are probably the best choices of the time. If we had more action actresses like we have now (or if Haley Berry wasn't so young at the time) then yeah, I agree would would have a better female pick. I don't think Angelina fitted the same target. She can be badass, but is a more Femme Fatale badass; not a Pragmatic Antihero badass.



    Very good? Yeah. But most of them wouldn't even fit the action hero role. So they woulnd't have fit Qui-Gon or Mace's role. Very popular? Also yeah. Few of them could probably play a female badass. But they lack the same profile Neeson and Jackson do. They would have provided a different kind of (female) Mace Windu and Qui-Gon. Unless they somehow cloned Sigourney Weaver (?)



    Don't feel bad. 11/10 it's my fault.



    I don't think that was his particular reasoning. He obviously needed stars for the films. Ewan McGregor wasn't a big one and Natalie Portman was too young to back the first movie alone. Christopher Lee wouldn't join till later. That's why I think they targeted older actors of the era who could support the first movie, but wouldn't play a central role on the screen so they wouldn't outshine the real main characters. That's Reason nº1 I believe Windu and Qui-Gon required stars of the target Jackson and Neeson could fit. Reason nº2 is what I explained before, the roles were for badass action heroes; so the actors needed to be able to show that. And I can't think of many who could possibly make a better job than them (specially considering the poor directing skills and the poor writing of the script). MAYBE Lt. Ripley and Sarah Connors are similar roles to Master Windu and Master Jinn. But probably the actresses who played them weren't considered for the role because their popularity was fading away, unlike the other two.

    tl;dr: I don't believe Samuel Jackson and Liam Neeson were chosen because they had a weiner; but because of how imposing they can be on the big screen. I don't believe there were better choices on that aspect at the time, female or not.

    EDIT (below)


    That's precisely why I was talking about the reasons for them being cast, and not their actual performances. Both suffered the same "not much of a character syndrome" and turned out to feel kinda like fish out of the water, when compared with their other movies (unlike Christopher Lee, who simply chews the scenery, the puppets, the CGI and three Death Star beams).
    We could discuss this to death, but ultimately it comes down to opinion I think.

    For example, I don't think Angelina couldn't play badass action hero - SALT was pretty much exactly that.
    Then again, neither Qui Gon nor Mace Windu were "pragmatic action badass" for me.
    If I were to compare, Angelina in SALT was much more pragmatic action badassery than either Neeson or Jackson.
    (don't get me wrong: I LIKED both Neeson and Jackson in their respective roles - I just don't understand the notion that no female actress at the time could have fullfilled a similar, but gender-swapped role). It doesn't have to be Angelina, either. I think others would have worked as well, but I'd have to look up - I don't remember actors' or actresses' names other than the top five I really really like.

    Speaking of which....how about Kate Beckinsale?
    I think the Underworld series AND Total Recall 2012 qualify her for action badassery. Ok, it's yet ANOTHER british lady in Star Wars, but this was before R1 and TFA...(what I don't know if she played similar roles back when the prequles were made. Time memory is fuzzy)

    Back to Angelina: Even if you dislike her as a Jedi, her proficiency in playing shady roles or "femme fatales" means she could have made an awesome Darth. But honestly, I am glad she wasn't cast as a dark side user. Given her appeal, we'd all be rooting for the empire by now
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2018-03-09 at 11:29 AM.
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    The funny thing about Ahsoka is that everyone went nuts when she returned. Because people love her.

    But somehow, those same people hate women characters...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    We could discuss this to death, but ultimately it comes down to opinion I think.

    For example, I don't think Angelina couldn't play badass action hero - SALT was pretty much exactly that.
    Then again, neither Qui Gon nor Mace Windu were "pragmatic action badass" for me.
    If I were to compare, Angelina in SALT was much more pragmatic action badassery than either Neeson or Jackson.
    (don't get me wrong: I LIKED both Neeson and Jackson in their respective roles - I just don't understand the notion that no female actress at the time could have fullfilled a similar, but gender-swapped role). It doesn't have to be Angelina, either. I think others would have worked as well, but I'd have to look up - I don't remember actors' or actresses' names other than the top five I really really like.
    I didn't say Angelina wasn't badass. I said she was a different kind of badass. By "pragmatic badass" I mean the kind you know things will get done once they appear (think of Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee, if you want). That that is the first thing you think about them, before considering his actual looks, his personality or whatever. It's like the air that surrounds them. They just transpire "oooohhh... here come the badass!" at first glance. Angelina has a different air. Sometimes it's similar, but it's probably not the first thing that comes to your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Speaking of which....how about Kate Beckinsale?
    I think the Underworld series AND Total Recall 2012 qualify her for action badassery. Ok, it's yet ANOTHER british lady in Star Wars, but this was before R1 and TFA...(what I don't know if she played similar roles back when the prequles were made. Time memory is fuzzy)

    Back to Angelina: Even if you dislike her as a Jedi, her proficiency in playing shady roles or "femme fatales" means she could have made an awesome Darth. But honestly, I am glad she wasn't cast as a dark side user. Given her appeal, we'd all be rooting for the empire by now
    Well, Kate is probably closer, but she never reached the category of either Angelina or Samuel. Sure, she might play some pragmatic badass. But still, fails the status quota. BTW, I don't think Angelina would have played a bad Jedi/Force User. I kinda dig her as Assajj Ventress, for example. Or even an old Ahsoka, if we use her now for a new Empire era flick. She has the looks and imposes herself the right way for Jedi like those. But those two aren't the same kind of badasses than Chuck Norris or Mace Windu.

    I always rooted for the Dark Side, btw. Before Kylo appeared
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Joeltion View Post
    I didn't say Angelina wasn't badass. I said she was a different kind of badass. By "pragmatic badass" I mean the kind you know things will get done once they appear (think of Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee, if you want). That that is the first thing you think about them, before considering his actual looks, his personality or whatever. It's like the air that surrounds them. They just transpire "oooohhh... here come the badass!" at first glance. Angelina has a different air. Sometimes it's similar, but it's probably not the first thing that comes to your mind.
    I've never watched Bruce Lee, and rarely watched Chuck Norris. But I do think it's telling you use those for your examples - since for me, neither Jackson nor Neeson evoke any sort of those feelings, like, at all. They are cool actors, but they don't have that "air" for me.
    What you describe I'd rather immediately think of Arnold, or Bruce Willis.
    And having said that, neither of which fit the roles that I view as Qui Gon or Mace Windu.

    So, all in all, for me neither Qui Gon nor Mace Windu had that "high testosterone" vibe I couldn't see a girl play (which is disputable per se, but let's leave it at that).
    They are cool Jedi who hit things with their light sabres. If anything, Qui Gon is - for me - a rather soft - dare I say feminine? - example of a Jedi, given the way he talks about how one needs to "feel the force present around us" and such.
    In fact, I remember liking Qui Gon very much when the movie first came out, specifically because he seemed more compassionate and less rigid than some of the other Jedi. He felt sorry for Anakin and wanted the order to train him, whereas even Yoda wanted to reject him. (sure there were other reasons like the code, but Qui Gon always seemed to me to be more in tough with people and showed care, whereas the other Jedi just sat on their thrones and pointed to their code).




    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Joeltion View Post
    Well, Kate is probably closer, but she never reached the category of either Angelina or Samuel. Sure, she might play some pragmatic badass. But still, fails the status quota. BTW, I don't think Angelina would have played a bad Jedi/Force User. I kinda dig her as Assajj Ventress, for example. Or even an old Ahsoka, if we use her now for a new Empire era flick. She has the looks and imposes herself the right way for Jedi like those. But those two aren't the same kind of badasses than Chuck Norris or Mace Windu.

    I always rooted for the Dark Side, btw. Before Kylo appeared
    If Disney is serious about making Star Wars big, they need to hire Angelina as Ahsoka. It's like printing money, but better.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2018-03-09 at 01:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayngfet View Post
    I would like to remind everyone that popularity polls are a thing, and Star Wars has literal dozens by every publication and by Lucasfilm.

    Rey is in fact more popular than Jar Jar ...by one percent. When it comes to more specific polls like all padawans, Ahsoka actually beat everyone, including Obi-Wan and Anakin. Then you have this Dorkly polls, where Darth Revan beat every prequel character except Darth Maul and Qui-Gonn. Then you have this poll, where people would literally rather vote for Palpatine twice than vote for Rey, who still barely beat Revan, a guy from a game that came out like fifteen years ago. Or this one, where Rey is struggling to beat Admiral Ackbar.

    The results of the two polls can't really be conflated to mean Ahsoka is more popular than Rey, since she generally places higher than Ahsoka when they're both on a poll, but there's a difference in expectations. We expect Ahsoka to do poorly. Her only appearances are on two of the lowest rated tv channels for their demographics(one of which is only extended cable to begin with), and on the one movie in the series hated more than the holiday special. Rey, meanwhile, is the face of a film trilogy and is supposed to be as important as Luke or Anakin. She's the one on all the ads and posters around the world. For her to struggle to be in someone's top fifteen, nevermind top ten, is very telling.

    This is also a big part of why The Last Jedi got so many bad reviews, and why so many people are iffy on IX. Luke is one of the most beloved characters in cinema, and across the whole franchise there are many two or three people who can match him even on just a poll. In terms of actual hard numbers Luke sells more toys than anyone else except maybe Vader or Boba Fett. Every single person who's in the usual top five is dead now. This is why toy sales for The Last Jedi dropped like a stone. If the audience feels the character they like is being shafted to push another they don't, they aren't going to play along.
    Most of these polls show that when you make a fan poll, they tend to like most the characters that made them fans in the first place. This is not surprising and doesn't say very much. Hardcore fans are also way more likely to be into TCW and Rebels and the Old Republic, significantly lessening the gap in awareness, so that when you get to the poll where Ahsoka did well, you realize she's probably the highest-profile character among hardcore fans whose primary trait is 'someone's Padawan'. And none of these polls say anything about whether Rey 'struggles to be in someone's top fifteen, nevermind top ten,' since they're all measures of collective favorability. This is leaving aside the continued issue of using self-selected online polling (i.e. everything besides the Morning Consult poll) as evidence of anything.

  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    I've never watched Bruce Lee, and rarely watched Chuck Norris. But I do think it's telling you use those for your examples - since for me, neither Jackson nor Neeson evoke any sort of those feelings, like, at all. They are cool actors, but they don't have that "air" for me.
    What you describe I'd rather immediately think of Arnold, or Bruce Willis.
    And having said that, neither of which fit the roles that I view as Qui Gon or Mace Windu.
    Well, if you haven't watched Bruce and Chuck on screen, then forget them. They are special cases where 100% of the time just come off that way. Obviously Neeson and Jackson are 1000% more skilled and versatile actors, so, they are way more than just that. If you want an more accurate idea of what kind of badass I'm referring to, you can check this entry (but what the trope is about is not what I am talking here; only pay attention to the entries about Neeson and Jackson). Tropes that define the characters they tend to play well and in some aspect partially represent Qui Gon and Windu, would be the Unfettered
    (Qui Gon is explicitly mentioned on the film entry, as well as Neeson's Taken character; Jackson isn't mentioned, but I think it's kinda obvious he is fond of playing similar roles); and the Unscrupulous Hero (where none of their characters are particularly mentioned; but I consider the dark/grey morality aspect of that trope also defines a lot of the characters they usually play).

    Of the two you mentioned, I think Arnold simply doesn't compare to them. He is a different kind of actor; where, instead of knowing he will do anything he must to accomplish the mission; your first thought when you see him on screen is that there will be a lot of screaming, a ludicrous amount of bullets/explosions, and one or two weird face moments (or possibly more). Bruce Willis, on the other hand, played that kind of character once, on Die Hard. But I think we can all agree that a lightsaber wielding Bruce Willis is a big no-no. Just, no. Please, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    So, all in all, for me neither Qui Gon nor Mace Windu had that "high testosterone" vibe I couldn't see a girl play (which is disputable per se, but let's leave it at that).
    They are cool Jedi who hit things with their light sabres. If anything, Qui Gon is - for me - a rather soft - dare I say feminine? - example of a Jedi, given the way he talks about how one needs to "feel the force present around us" and such.
    In fact, I remember liking Qui Gon very much when the movie first came out, specifically because he seemed more compassionate and less rigid than some of the other Jedi. He felt sorry for Anakin and wanted the order to train him, whereas even Yoda wanted to reject him. (sure there were other reasons like the code, but Qui Gon always seemed to me to be more in tough with people and showed care, whereas the other Jedi just sat on their thrones and pointed to their code).
    Qui Gon is a hippie, sure; but don't forget he was also kind of a rebel, specially when it came to following the codes. He was OK with doing the right thing in unorthodox ways; tradition be damned. That's why he was included in the Unfettered trope. Windu, on the other hand, is very orthodox, but there's also his absolute hate towards the sith, and the scene with Palpatine when he was also OK with smiting evil right there, right now. When it came to justice, Mace Windu was probably the Unfettered too, specially considering he was OK with playing with the dark side to smite evil.

    But I don't mean they were selected because they fitted the characters the best. I said it's possible that the reasons they were cast is because they fit a specific profile (based on their acting abilities); and if the characters didn't suit them too well in the end, that was only because the script wasn't all too well written in the first place. I'm not saying it would be impossible to recast the movie if written differently than it was*. I'm saying those specific actors were the best at doing that kind of thing on the screen, and if that's the profile producers were looking for, then there wouldn't be many better choices (available or not). It's a mere speculation, I am aware of that. But there is at least one single profile that both actors truly excel at, over the rest of all possible candidates; so that's why I gave them a pass for casting them and not other female badasses.

    *Otherwise, I would be falling into the tautology "Liam Neeson is the best Qui Gon Jin because he played Qui Gon Jin in the prequels"

    ETA: Just to make my point clearer; none of the aspects of those actors that I was referring to have anything to do with being a macho or extremely violent. It's more about their stance, and how believable they are when in that kind of pose/mood.
    Last edited by Lord Joeltion; 2018-03-09 at 02:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Joeltion View Post
    Bruce Willis, on the other hand, played that kind of character once, on Die Hard. But I think we can all agree that a lightsaber wielding Bruce Willis is a big no-no. Just, no.
    I don't know - I rather liked the Star Wars Union (the one with Luke & Mara's marriage) comic scenes with Kam Solusar illustrated as Bruce Willis.
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