[potential spoiler?] i think i know where the last gate is.

[Steve Edwards]

This is just a theory of course but when you look at the crayon history of the gates, they are fighting on the surface, in the next frame we see there is now a dwarf statue with the only major difference being a tree in the background... I think that Statue is the retainer for the gate.

it also makes sense for the Halfling to misdirect them using the "pick the coin under the cup" trick.

[SlashDash]

Isn't it obvious?

I assumed since the online strip made quite a few notable shots of the Kraggars statue that it's where the gate is gonig to be.

[hroþila]

Yes, it'd be a super obvious and thus terrible place to put your macguffin. The statue sticks out and would likely be the first place anyone looked.

Girard's bluff was sensible because it was a last ditch effort to confuse an enemy who would already have had to deal with the main defenses. Putting it under the statue would mean bypassing all of the other defenses.

If the Gate is somehow under the statue, going through the dungeons must still be necessary to access it.

[factotum]

If the Gate is somehow under the statue, going through the dungeons must still be necessary to access it.

Which seems unlikely because the statue was clearly out in the open air, as I recall, so they'd have had to raise a mountain on top of it to make access through the dungeons a requirement. Not completely impossible given the power and (presumed) wealth of the people involved, just maybe a bit unlikely.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which seems unlikely because the statue was clearly out in the open air, as I recall, so they'd have had to raise a mountain on top of it to make access through the dungeons a requirement. Not completely impossible given the power and (presumed) wealth of the people involved, just maybe a bit unlikely.

Unless the rift happened to naturally be surrounded by a massive system of caves, it seems extremely likely that a mountain was indeed raised on top of it (one made of scrying-resistant walls, to boot). The flashback of the final battle for that rift was in the open, too, although being a flashback we cannot be certain of its accuracy.

Which is to say: I don't think that the rift is under (or in) the statue. But there was a significant terrain-altering process put in place to defend it regardless.

Grey Wolf

[Synesthesy]

Unless the rift happened to naturally be surrounded by a massive system of caves

Dramatic rules say that it's 1/100000, so almost sure.

[Emanick]

Dramatic rules say that it's 1/100000, so almost sure.

Why would dramatic rules apply here? It's totally irrelevant whether there used to be natural caves there or whether they were built. By that logic, literally every irrelevant detail of the past is likely to be something incredibly implausible, like that every main character is descended from the same werebear-blue dragon couple.

[ThatNickGuy]

I was flipping through the books last night and, remembering this thread, looked at the flashback showing the creation of each gate in #277.

Aside from Soon's gate, notice how Serini's gate is the ONLY one not explicitly shown?

I think maybe the statue theory might have some merit. Serini was (is? is she still alive?) a Rogue. Remember Xykon's shell game during the war on Azure City? He presented three options to trick the paladins, only to reveal that NONE of them were the real deal. Only Haley, a Rogue, saw through that. One could argue why Xykon doesn't see it himself, but 1) He's not a Rogue and 2) His ego won't let him consider someone else using his "brilliant" trick.

But who's to say Serini didn't pull the same gag? Her diaries imply she had a thing for Draketooth, so she might have either heard of his own fake-out plans, been inspired by him in some way, or they even brain-stormed ideas.

Speaking of Serini, my working theory on her whereabouts is...she's the Monster in the Darkness. She didn't want to retire like the rest of the Order of the Scribble. My theory is she was cursed or has become so addle brained that she's forgotten who she is.

[Morquard]

The problem with that idea is that it might indeed stop people looking for the gate. But it wouldn't stop random looters/vandalism, who see a statue and tear it down. Or Xykon getting fed up and decides to blast it to smithereens instead of just drawing glasses on it. Or anyone who hated the Scribbles and just wanted the statue gone before going into those caves to look.

Also we had the deception angle already just one gate ago, I don't think it's gonna happen again.

[Keltest]

If the statue is at all relevant to the defenses, and not just something put there to honor Kraagor, I think its most likely the statue is the key to locating the correct door. Which wouldn't necessarily get you any closer to getting into the tomb, if the monsters behind that door are tough enough to stop you.

[Fyraltari]

But who's to say Serini didn't pull the same gag? Her diaries imply she had a thing for Draketooth, so she might have either heard of his own fake-out plans, been inspired by him in some way, or they even brain-stormed ideas.

Considering that each other Scribbler went with their own idea and they all ironically failed, while Serini was the one advocate of "let's all work together, guys" I am 100% sure that shouls the last Gate not fall it will be by vindicating her in one way (her gate actually contains element of every member of the group's approaches) or another (It is saved by the Stickers showing better teamwork and mutula understanding than the Scribblers ever did).

[SlashDash]

Nitpicking : The shell game was Redcloak's idea, not Xykon's.




Anyhow, I don't know if the statue is the gate, or that it's possible there's another dungeon beneath it or something.

Also the notion that some vandal will mess up the statue and expose the gate is pretty much the same as anyone destroying the throne in Azure city.

Remember Miko killing Shojo? What if she missed and hit the gate? She could have destroyed the entire city.

Heck, Redcloak destroyed Lirian's gate by accident.

So I don't think you can take that as an argument.




As for Sireni, we have no idea what happened to her and the fact that the order even asked that question pretty much assumes we'll find out later.

My initial thought was

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

That she has to be alive, because we'll need to find out what happened to the original gang.
However, Start of Darkness shows us that Xykon is holding Lirian and Dorukon in his soul gem, so maybe they'll be the one to tell us.


Of course, it's also possible that Kraggor will return from beyond the rifts or that we'll get a ghost visit like Soon.

So she isn't needed for the story.

The fact that Xykon has her diary and that she doesn't seem active despite getting the warning from Gerard's desert trap makes me thinks she's likely dead or trapped somewhere. Not likely that Xykon has her as a prisoner since he said he was decoding the gates locations, and she'd be his prisoner, he'd just torture her for it.

[ThatNickGuy]

Nitpicking : The shell game was Redcloak's idea, not Xykon's.

Whoops, I stand corrected. Redcloak might figure it out sooner, but given how many doors there are (and MITD marking several as "done"), I get the feeling he won't figure it out for awhile. Assuming the statue is a fake-out, mind you.

[BaronOfHell]

Whoops, I stand corrected. Redcloak might figure it out sooner, but given how many doors there are (and MITD marking several as "done"), I get the feeling he won't figure it out for awhile. Assuming the statue is a fake-out, mind you.

In my opinion the shell game vs. Azure City was a good idea because even if the enemy figured neither of the 3 fake Xykon's were real, it didn't give any advantages the enemy would have had if the shell game hadn't been deployed.

So for something similar to work here, I think a setup where even if Team Evil figures out it's a trick, it won't put the defense of the Gate any worse than without the trick is required.

[Steve Edwards]

I was flipping through the books last night and, remembering this thread, looked at the flashback showing the creation of each gate in #277.


Speaking of Serini, my working theory on her whereabouts is...she's the Monster in the Darkness. She didn't want to retire like the rest of the Order of the Scribble. My theory is she was cursed or has become so addle brained that she's forgotten who she is.

while the thought is entertaining, unfortunately it wouldn't make alot of sense how according to the commentary of others, it's a type of species which seems to be recognizable to others. I thought it might have been a baby tarrasque, but that wouldn't explain the teleport special ability.

one of my friends commented that it doesn't leave footprints for us the audience to see and yet belkar acknowledges it does indeed have footprints.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

one of my friends commented that it doesn't leave footprints for us the audience to see and yet belkar acknowledges it does indeed have footprints.

No, he left tracks. That is not the same as saying he left footprints. He might have been dragging his toys - which at the time included a table - and it was the items that left the tracks that Belkar followed, but described as weird.

We have a thread (maintained by me) that compiles all the clues here.

Grey Wolf

[SlashDash]

In my opinion the shell game vs. Azure City was a good idea because even if the enemy figured neither of the 3 fake Xykon's were real, it didn't give any advantages the enemy would have had if the shell game hadn't been deployed.

So for something similar to work here, I think a setup where even if Team Evil figures out it's a trick, it won't put the defense of the Gate any worse than without the trick is required.

If Team Evil realizes that none of the dungeons holds the gate, what are they going to do? Randomly assume it's the statue?
I assume it as such because it's a checkov's gun that we saw it as much as we did.

But Team Evil can't make that assumption. It could be under any tree, any rock.
Heck, you've seen the order combing the desert looking for Girard's gate. Team evil would be doing the same here - that's even assuming they know for a fact the gate is there and not decide to go elsewhere, like Nale did.


They won't go elsewhere since they have her diary, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't counting on it falling to the wrong hands.

[Keltest]

If Team Evil realizes that none of the dungeons holds the gate, what are they going to do? Randomly assume it's the statue?
I assume it as such because it's a checkov's gun that we saw it as much as we did.

But Team Evil can't make that assumption. It could be under any tree, any rock.
Heck, you've seen the order combing the desert looking for Girard's gate. Team evil would be doing the same here - that's even assuming they know for a fact the gate is there and not decide to go elsewhere, like Nale did.


They won't go elsewhere since they have her diary, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't counting on it falling to the wrong hands.

Ok, but remember back when the Order first got to the fake coordinates Girard gave the Sapphire Guard for the location of his gate? Haley explained very well why you wouldn't want to double bluff them in that manner, because the Statue is right there, and once theyre convinced its not in any of the caves, theyre going to give it a once over just out of thoroughness before they start formulating a new plan.

If the basis of your defense is secrecy, luring the people who want to find the gate to the exact location of the gate is detrimental to the goal of keeping it hidden. Even if they don't know its there, having them in its presence dramatically increases the chance they will stumble across it.

[hroþila]

The Order didn't merely comb the desert at random. They combed the area around the coordinates they had because they didn't have anything else to go by. They also searched Girard's statue in the off-chance that the Gate was there because, again, they didn't have anything else to go by. Kraagor's statue is an obvious point to search, especially if you have nothing else to go by.

As someone noted some time ago, that so many people think the statue would be a great hiding place is very ironic.

[factotum]

As someone noted some time ago, that so many people think the statue would be a great hiding place is very ironic.

It would make a great hiding place if it was just another statue in the middle of a terracotta army-like crowd, but standing out there on its own in the middle of nowhere...yeah, that's a bit obvious.

[Cizak]

If you have the option to put the gate behind defenses, why on Earth would you choose not to?

Girard lured The Order (Soon) to a point far away from the gate and put the actual one behind defenses. The gate being in the statue would mean Serini did the exact opposite; She lured her enemies directly to the Gate and left it exposed.

Also the notion that some vandal will mess up the statue and expose the gate is pretty much the same as anyone destroying the throne in Azure city.

Remember Miko killing Shojo? What if she missed and hit the gate? She could have destroyed the entire city.

Heck, Redcloak destroyed Lirian's gate by accident.

So I don't think you can take that as an argument.

[/SPOILER]

This comparison doesn't hold water. The statue is a random, seemingly unguarded piece of stone that anyone could smash for any reason. The Azure City throne was in the highest room in a highly fortified castle being protected by an order of paladins. And yeah, Miko almost destroyed it. The weakness of relying on the loyalty of your selected protectors is that a lot of protection goes out the window if that loyalty falters. Similarily, Redcloak was only able to accidentally destroy Lirian's gate after invading the territory of a high level druid with an army and a powerful undead sorcerer.

Soon's and Lirian's gates were only "easy" to destroy after bypassing a substantial amount of defenses. The statue... just walk up to it.

[Porthos]

Why it's not in the statue (probably) in one sentence:

It sticking out like a sore thumb makes it MORE likely to be searched by frustrated adventurers who are sick and tired of looking through caves than LESS likely.


===

It's the sticking out like a sore thumb which is the key.

And if you think it's unlikely that Team Evil would think of that, I would simply point out that DOZENS of posters, if not approaching a hundred, have all guessed that it's in the statue. Some within moments of the strip in question being posted.

If so many random readers are guessing that, I think it would be near the top of the list for someone in Team Evil's party to think it.

If not, they need a good reason not to think it. And, well, there's lots of trees and rocks so why search that isn't a very good reason in my book. If only because those could be there naturally and the statue very much couldn't.

It's very existence as something obviously built, which makes it different from all the rocks and tress which could or could not have been there originally, here makes it a prime candidate to be looked over. Either right away or after dozens of fruitless searches.

[Morquard]

People have pointed out that it seems like the landscape has been changed post gate. Which is possible, I guess.

Which would mean, that isn't it more likely that it was changed in such a way that the gate is now snuggly inside the mountain, with no way to it. Not a single one. It's just a hollow spot in the middle of the mountain, and none of the caves lead to it.

Of course, that's unlikely to be the case, as Team Evil obviously has to find it - for dramatic reasons - about the time the Order arrives so there's a last minute showdown and all.

[Riftwolf]

Am I the only one who thinks there is no trick? That this is a defence that would deter anyone powerful enough from continuing their search; an uncheatable, unavoidable, use-your-spells-to-blast dungeon with thousands of dead ends? That Serini, knowing the overshadowing that happens when spellcasters go epic, built a dungeon where an epic sorcerer is forced into a dungeon crawl like the rest of the mortals?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Am I the only one who thinks there is no trick?

No, I am of the same opinion. I think that Serini did build a monument to strength in the dwarf's memory, and that it would be a grave insult to his memory to cheapen it by making the final solution a trick.

GW

[Peelee]

Put me in that camp as well.

[Fyraltari]

I think that the last gate is inside the complex, to respect Kraagor's view, but the very last line of defense of the right tunnel will be a mix of each Scribbler's ideas.

[Keltest]

Personally, I think if theres going to be a trick, it will be that the correct tunnel cant be accessed from any of the doors. It will have been sealed off so that the former entryway just looks like the rest of the probably-artificial cliffside. Its still filled with monsters, you just cant walk into it. You would have to know where it is and smash the cliff down to get into the tunnel.

[Emanick]

Personally, I think if theres going to be a trick, it will be that the correct tunnel cant be accessed from any of the doors. It will have been sealed off so that the former entryway just looks like the rest of the probably-artificial cliffside. Its still filled with monsters, you just cant walk into it. You would have to know where it is and smash the cliff down to get into the tunnel.

I was thinking this as well. Why make it possible to access the gate at all without tunneling through stone? That would even serve as further tribute to Kraagor’s belief in the importance of physical might.

I don’t necessarily expect this to happen, but it would make sense to me if it did.

[Throknor]

Xykon has her diary which gave away the location of many if not all of the gates*. If she screwed up to the extent of doing that it's a borderline miracle she didn't give away which of the her doors is the correct one. I don't see her not accidentally giving away that her gate is really in the statue either in how she writes about the gate or the statue.

Yes, she didn't write the literal exact location of the other gates but she gave enough information that Xykon appeared right outside Girard's temple. So she knew that Gate was at X' by Y'; she just didn't know the defenses. I find it implausible that someone that careless with the other Gates' locations wouldn't have somehow given away hers was in a statue instead of behind one of a myriad of doors.

*Redcloak already knew the first so while she probably did we don't know for certain it had that one. Or maybe we do; I can't recall if Xykon used it to help figure out her diary. Regardless if he could decode locations he could decode if she left any clues about her own Gate.