Black Panther - AfroFuturism takes on Broadway!!

[BWR]

In short, it was a good movie. Not perfect but better than a lot of Marvel movies.

Spoiler: more details

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First off, the set and world building is amazing and a joy to behold. The costumes, the buildings, the look of the tech, everything is just pretty. The characters are engaging and have understandable motives, and Shuri just won our hearts with her humor and brains. The story itself is straightforward and doesn't offer many surprises other than Klaue's death. The music, for the first time in a Marvel movie, is something noticeable and interesting. Sadly there was the techno/rap/hiphop/whatever it was which was pretty bad, but the other stuff was brilliant. Enough so that I'm probably going to pick up the soundtrack, which I don't think has happened to a movie since the Star Wars movies.

The main weaknesses of the movie are twofold. The first is a weakness in lots of its Marvel's more recent work: the action. While not as bad as some, the melee scenes still suffered greatly from poor directing. Too many close ups, jump cuts, camera moves and some shakycam (though not as bad as CACW) to make sure to blur it all. Some of bits of the final fights were so obviously mediocre CGI that it was almost embarrassing to watch, but oddly enough these were the best action bits because you could clearly see what was going on.
The second, and less vital one, was how T'Challa didn't point out that Killmonger had stolen Klaw from his grasp. That, while perhaps a bit embarrassing, would weaken Killmonger's claim of superiority.

All in all, I would put this above most Marvel movies, but it doesn't quite match up to IM1 or CA:TFA, which at this point I'm more than willing to admit is at least partially due to the Marvel recipe getting a bit...well-used.

[Peelee]

I do not attribute malice to Tolkien. But i do claim that the defining story of fantasy stories of the 20th century was eurocentric as hell, and by default all classic fantasy stories are also eurocentric.

I'm glad you put in "20th century."

[Cikomyr]

I'm glad you put in "20th century."

Well, Arthurian legends were also influencial obviously. But i still think Tolkien's impact is more.. vivid. More tangible.

I mean, he popularized Elves, Dwarves and Orcs as what we currently think of them.

[DavidSh]

You also sometimes see fantasy that is derivative of the Arabian Nights, and not so Eurocentric, by at least one definition of Eurocentric.

[Cikomyr]

You also sometimes see fantasy that is derivative of the Arabian Nights, and not so Eurocentric, by at least one definition of Eurocentric.

Most definetly!

But then, they are hardly "standard" fantasy fare.

I also love Chinese fantast stories like Wuxia or Journey to the West

[JoshL]

What's incredible to me is that I'm actually hyped for the OST.

Which is, well, it's a Marvel movie. Other than GotG using the greatest hits effectively - and the Avengers theme being iconic and awesome - is a bit of a dry well.

As a big filmscore fan, I agree with this so much. I enjoy the Marvel films, but other than one or two themes, most of the scores seem...well, functional at best. I think my favorite score as a whole was Doctor Strange, and even that got a little overshadowed by the composer's own end credits prog-psych tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4uoNAFfvKg

[Kitten Champion]

As a big filmscore fan, I agree with this so much. I enjoy the Marvel films, but other than one or two themes, most of the scores seem...well, functional at best. I think my favorite score as a whole was Doctor Strange, and even that got a little overshadowed by the composer's own end credits prog-psych tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4uoNAFfvKg

The Winter Soldier has a pretty memorable theme as well, the rest of the OST is pretty capably done too. Though by its nature it's not something I'd sit down and listen to for personal enjoyment, but it's more impactful in its movie than most.

Thor: Ragnarok also has some cool 80's electronica in its OST with the heavy orchestra fantasy-sounding stuff mixed in. It's, at least, different sounding.

[Cikomyr]

The Winter Soldier has a pretty memorable theme as well, the rest of the OST is pretty capably done too. Though by its nature it's not something I'd sit down and listen to for personal enjoyment, but it's more impactful in its movie than most.

Thor: Ragnarok also has some cool 80's electronica in its OST with the heavy orchestra fantasy-sounding stuff mixed in. It's, at least, different sounding.

Avenger's Theme is part of my main playlist. Its classic chords always did it for me.

[Corvus]

I'm not a big comic buff (most of what I know comes from the movies) so maybe this is answered in the comics.

From the trailer, it makes it sound like the whole civilisation is hidden except for a front to make it seem like a typical poor African nation. How, in an age of satellites and detection of radio signals and the like do they hide the rest of it?

If they had tech so advanced and powerful it can hide a civilisation, you think that at some point along the way they would have stepped in an absolutely crushed the European conquest of Africa, or are they bound by some form of Star Trek style Prime Directive to not interfere?

And I take that in their long history they have managed to avoid having that one bad ruler who just decided to go out and conquer the neighbours, which they should have been easily able to do. Which is impressive, given human nature.

[Legato Endless]

From the trailer, it makes it sound like the whole civilisation is hidden except for a front to make it seem like a typical poor African nation. How, in an age of satellites and detection of radio signals and the like do they hide the rest of it?

Cloaking technology that trumps all that. If MCU science can craft a shield that ignores basic laws of kinetic energy, manipulating electromagnetism is par for the course.

And I take that in their long history they have managed to avoid having that one bad ruler who just decided to go out and conquer the neighbours, which they should have been easily able to do. Which is impressive, given human nature.

Human nature has very little jurisdiction in the MCU governing how large organizations act. Dramatic license aside, nations in the real world have had periods lasting centuries of relative isolation. This is just expanding that up. Wakanda also isn't an absolute monarchy, it has a ruling council that checks the power of the monarch.

[Kitten Champion]

Human nature has very little jurisdiction in the MCU governing how large organizations act. Dramatic license aside, nations in the real world have had periods lasting centuries of relative isolation. This is just expanding that up. Wakanda also isn't an absolute monarchy, it has a ruling council that checks the power of the monarch.

They're also somewhat geographically locked due to the Vibranium mound which is - I believe - much of the justification for why Wakanda exists as it does.

[Xyril]

It doesn't strain credulity, but usually you'll see something. For example, a nation rich in petroleum may have a lot of cars on the road, a nation rich in minerals may have lots of mining equipment visible in the distance, something. What we see of Zamunda is nothing short of idyllic - it's a beautiful, lush, green palace grounds, lavish and expansive, and no real indication of where that's all coming from.

I'm glad you threw in that bit about it not straining credulity, since I was immediately thinking about Singapore, London, Shanghai, Seoul, and numerous other economic centers where you pretty much walk around without really seeing anything that screams "This is where our wealth comes from." Unless of course you happen to be such a business/architecture buff that certain buildings just scream "headquarters for multinational bank."

Now that you point it out, I suppose there is a bit of a movie convention that unless it's a well-known European/American city, they need to provide some unsubtle visual cues about why that city is important. Personally, I think it's a bit of a dumb convention likely rooted in the presumed ignorance or prejudice of the audience.

I'm rather glad to see a movie where all they really need to say is, "Contrary to what some people would expect, this African nation managed to avoid both outside dangers and the internal mistakes that held back both its real-world counterparts and its fictitious neighbors. To understand the plot, you need to know that this country has been historically stable, secure, and prosperous. That's it. If you can't imagine an African nation being a nice place without us holding your hand and painting a picture in excruciating detail, maybe you should go watch the Passion sequel instead."

But development isn't just gainful employment, it's also the comforts of modernity. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but in the final scene, do Akeem and Lisa ride away in an open-top car, or a carriage? I feel like it's the latter, and I honestly don't recall seeing a single car in the Zamunda scenes. I recall carriages, and elephants, but I honestly don't recall cars. (It's been awhile, I could be wrong.) I feel like, if Zamunda were a truly prosperous nation, there would be more cars. At least among the nobility.

The lack of cars may actually be the sign of wealth and indicative of the nobility. I can tell you from personal experience that horses are more resource intensive than a modest car. There is much more labor overhead--that is, even when nothing goes wrong you need to spend more time or pay somebody to spend more time to maintain horses than pretty much any common car. In terms of transportation, cars remain faster and cheaper in reasonably developed areas, even when fuel prices are substantially higher. Riding around in a carriage in a contemporary setting doesn't really imply that you're too broke to afford a car--it implies that you have the wealth to keep a bunch of horses alive and healthy so that they can pull you along at the pace of a slow jog, and that you have enough leisure time to use this as your main mode of travel, when a cheap car, motorcycle, or even a bicycle could get you there faster.

A few real world places, such as Mackinac Island, enforce a car ban in order to maintain a certain lifestyle. While being a major tourist spot might also partly explain the prices, I can't help but think that everything is more expensive there in part because the rules imposed to maintain there image makes is much harder to get things done.

[Xyril]

I'm not a big comic buff (most of what I know comes from the movies) so maybe this is answered in the comics.

From the trailer, it makes it sound like the whole civilisation is hidden except for a front to make it seem like a typical poor African nation. How, in an age of satellites and detection of radio signals and the like do they hide the rest of it?

I've read Marvel for a long time, though not Black Panther in any real depth, but I would guess that it might not be answered in the comics because it didn't need to be. Black Panther is from the 1960's, and all of Marvel uses a fuzzy "sliding continuity," which essentially means that Peter Parker was a high school student in the 60's, did the normal four-year--like everyone else in universe--over a period that somehow spanned decades, and we're just expected to roll with it. Wakanda was created in a time before a private company could provide high quality satellite images online for less than the amount they make advertising to you, and if anybody noticed that new developments might undercut their backstory and made an effort to address it, I don't really remember it.

It's like the origin story for the Hulk--most people now know that gamma rays will, at best, turn you into Cancer Man, and sometimes there will be some comics where, in universe, people actually discuss relating to the real world scientific developments that imply the impossibility of Hulk's origins. Yet we collectively decide to suspend our disbelief, because Hulk and his gamma-powered extended Hulk family is such a major part of Marvel history.

If they had tech so advanced and powerful it can hide a civilisation, you think that at some point along the way they would have stepped in an absolutely crushed the European conquest of Africa, or are they bound by some form of Star Trek style Prime Directive to not interfere?

Another suspension of disbelief point about Marvel--we're generally expected to believe that some people are actually decent people. Marvel comics have included countless small nations, splinter groups, and individuals with access to powers, technology, or resources that could let them more or less conquer the world, so long as they are careful to avoid pissing off those aforementioned countless others with the same resources. Sometimes there are explicit reasons why, but in general I think we're expected to just find it plausible that a person with power might not immediately want to reshape the world in his own image.

In terms of technology, the MCU specifically has established that SHIELD--and by extension, at least some western nations in general--have access to cloaking technology. If Wakanda is more advanced than the rest of the world, it's plausible that they would have developed the same, or some analogous technology, before the rest of the world had abundant satellites. Keep in mind, satellite/high altitude reconnaissance was costly when first developed, so we mostly had them pointed at our enemies, with more superficial looks at other places just in case our enemies show up there. So even after we had the technology, spy satellites were expensive enough that we would only really look hard at Africa if we saw the Soviets suddenly shipping a bunch of stuff there--we generally wouldn't be spending a lot of time scrutinizing a bunch of poor, undeveloped countries to try to find signs that a single small, highly developed country was hiding among them.

And I take that in their long history they have managed to avoid having that one bad ruler who just decided to go out and conquer the neighbours, which they should have been easily able to do. Which is impressive, given human nature.

Why would they want to conquer other nations? They already have substantial wealth, stability, and safety, and a resource that would only make them a target if the world knew about it. While technology might help you to win a war against a numerically superior enemy, it can be limited in how well it can help you control a conquered territory. This has been proven time and time again in real life, even with smaller technological disparities. Firearms were a decisive advantage for the Europeans, allowing them to consistently win wars against the Native Americans. However, they couldn't completely secure the frontiers without substantial manpower. Plus, every time you employ your superior technology you also put it at risk of capture, meaning that a prolonged occupation would also have to include even more resources devoted to finding and destroying any captured technology.

If the self-interested choice is to remain isolated, then all Wakanda has to do is avoid having a king who's straight up crazy. Guys who are willing to spend resources and their people's lives for some potential gain aren't rare--guys who are straight up nuts hopefully are.

[Cikomyr]

Accidental pun heard on Doug&Rob Walker's review:

"Andrew Sirkis and Martin Freeman are the two tolkien white guys"

Made me crack up XD

[Dr.Samurai]

I thought the movie was very good, one of the better Marvel movies. The first act was a little slow-going, and with what was going on on screen I figured it would be a long-ish movie. But it kept me engaged throughout, especially during the challenges.

There were some scenes that were really dark, which was annoying, I couldn't really make out what was going on.

There were a couple of contrivances, but nothing major. Michael B Jordan really sold his part to me as well. So much so that, even though I couldn't really get into his motivations, I was vested in his efforts. Like... I didn't want him to win but man I wasn't eager to see him lose either. It suffers a little because of the Marvel movie villain trope in that the villain is just a bad version of the hero. But I think it works here better than in other movies and I was into the conflict.

A lot of the music was great. Some of it, the parts where it's more like just a beat sounding, were a little distracting. But I'd say it was an improvement over most Marvel films.

Anyways, I liked it a lot. I'll say that I was a little disappointed in Wakanda. When they first arrive, it looks almost like a junkyward planet in a sci-fi movie. I think it's because they try to blend hut-like roofs with other tech. Not sure. The city didn't look very advanced. Maybe that's just my expectations, since I didn't know much about Wakanda going into it.

[Darth Ultron]

From the trailer, it makes it sound like the whole civilisation is hidden except for a front to make it seem like a typical poor African nation. How, in an age of satellites and detection of radio signals and the like do they hide the rest of it?

Wakanda has cloaking tech.
Wakanda has spies/saboteurs world wide to keep the secret
The vast majority of the high tech Wakanda is under the jungle foliage and underground

If they had tech so advanced and powerful it can hide a civilisation, you think that at some point along the way they would have stepped in an absolutely crushed the European conquest of Africa, or are they bound by some form of Star Trek style Prime Directive to not interfere?

They have a Prime Directive.


The Movie was a bit above average, but nothing too great. Being a modern Disney movie, it is very, very, very Bland.

The movie has way too many characters, really there should have been much more focus on the Black Panther himself.

The Iron Man Panther Suit does make the Black Panther a bit too invulnerable. It's silly and pointless if nothing even has a chance of effecting the hero.

It's a good enough movie on it's own of just ''a kingdom in Africa'', but it's no where near enough to Change Hollywood or make people want to see more like it.

[Strigon]

I was concerned when going it that it would linger on the whole "Black vs White" issue for far too long, and I'm very glad it didn't. There were definitely times in the movie I felt it, but they were short, few and far between.

Frankly, I enjoyed it thoroughly, and I must echo what was said about the soundtrack. I think all the characters were very good - except the villains, whom I found somewhat irritating - and I especially enjoyed Martin Freeman's character by the end.

The only other things I can think to say are that I would absolutely play a properly done Black Panther video game, perhaps in the vein of the Arkham series. Maybe take a nod or to from Mirror's Edge or Assassin's Creed. You'd have to make some major innovations, but I think there's some potential there.
I also think Black Panther is gunning for my favourite hero in the MCU, which is impressive.
I'm slightly underwhelmed by the fact that this super-advanced country with the most incredible phlebtonium I've ever seen can only make a "meh" level suit.
I mean, it's cool and all, but I don't think it's quite as good as what Tony Stark built in a cave!
With a box of scraps!
(I mean, okay, it's better than his first generation suit, but you get my point. Anything to pretend all the Avengers are on a level playing field, I guess )

[Cikomyr]

Tony Stark's superpower is "invent the most advanced suit technology on the planet". It would somewhat downgrade Iron Man if another country could just whip out his equal.

[Strigon]

Tony Stark's superpower is "invent the most advanced suit technology on the planet". It would somewhat downgrade Iron Man if another country could just whip out his equal.

From a narrative perspective, I agree; hence my comment about making all the Avengers equal in power.
From a logical perspective, though... Well, let's just say I wouldn't put a superintelligent Victorian's weapons against a modern Abrams tank, fighter, or warship.

[Zalabim]

The difference here is that Black Panther is wearing the Vibranium equivalent to a flak jacket and a combat knife, while Iron Man's suit is actually powered armor, with an emphasis on powered. The superhuman black panther in the suit provides the majority of its power. BP certainly has access to some other powerful tools, but he keeps those around like tools. They aren't integrated into the suit.

Spoiler: Is it the Lion King?

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Anyway, someone in my theatre shared the comment that the movie gave him the feeling that he should be holding his son up to the sunrise, aka, "Did I just watch The Lion King?" In that case, there is a character whose father was killed by his uncle, who grew up exiled from his home, who befriended some fun-loving outsiders, and who eventually returned to his home to take the throne. Unfortunately for him, this movie isn't named "Killmonger."

[Douglas]

Watched it today, I think it's pretty good. Going into the movie I didn't have any idea what sort of plot would make sense to have Black Panther as the focus (possibly in part because I've never read any of his comics), but what they came up with works really well.

Spoiler

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The marks on Killmonger's body are remarkably uniformly distributed, considering how much of him they cover and that each one represents a kill. You'd think he decided in advance how many kills he was going to get and aimed for precisely that amount, no more and no less. Also, I laughed at the comment that he racked up kills "like it was a video game". It's just so true, main character kill counts in video games are almost always ridiculously high.

So, is T'Challa going to be the last of the line of Black Panthers in the MCU? Since the garden of magic plants that give them their powers is all gone, will his heir just have to go without?

In the first post credits scene, I'm not quite sure what the guy in the audience asked. I think it was something like "what does Wakanda have to offer the world?" spoken with tone and/or phrasing that implied skepticism that this tiny third world country could possibly have anything meaningful. Is that it?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Spoiler

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The marks on Killmonger's body are remarkably uniformly distributed, considering how much of him they cover and that each one represents a kill. You'd think he decided in advance how many kills he was going to get and aimed for precisely that amount, no more and no less.

Spoiler

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I picture him having the objective of covering as much as possible from the start, and therefore be methodical about it from the start. Possibly starting along the sternum and expanding outwards from there.

Spoiler

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So, is T'Challa going to be the last of the line of Black Panthers in the MCU? Since the garden of magic plants that give them their powers is all gone, will his heir just have to go without?

Spoiler

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Nah. The roots and seeds probably would survive - enough anyway that in a few years they could restart the garden. The point was to ensure no one could challenge him while he consolidated his grasp on power. Also, if the potion that removes he panther powers is also produced from those plants, that his powers couldn’t be taken away.

Spoiler

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In the first post credits scene, I'm not quite sure what the guy in the audience asked. I think it was something like "what does Wakanda have to offer the world?" spoken with tone and/or phrasing that implied skepticism that this tiny third world country could possibly have anything meaningful. Is that it?

Yes, pretty much.

Grey Wolf

[GloatingSwine]

Tony Stark's superpower is "invent the most advanced suit technology on the planet". It would somewhat downgrade Iron Man if another country could just whip out his equal.

That isn't even Tony Stark's superpower. It's Reed Richards'.

And T'Challa has always been Reed's equal intellectually. (Without being a douche as often as Richards, as long as Reggie Hudlin isn't involved).

[Cikomyr]

That isn't even Tony Stark's superpower. It's Reed Richards'.

And T'Challa has always been Reed's equal intellectually. (Without being a douche as often as Richards, as long as Reggie Hudlin isn't involved).

..what? When did Reed Richards ever use power armor?

I get he's super smart, but he doesnt use power armor.

Plus, we are talking MCU here.

[Benthesquid]

Y'know, I could almost start to suspect that trial by combat wasn't a great way to choose the leader of a technologically advanced nation.

Of course, I'm not as sold on birthright monarchy as Marvel in general seems to assume I am, either...

[Malimar]

Saw it today.

I had one concern going in: that the lack of diversity in the cast would make poor little old prosopagnostic me confused, like the endless parade of identical bearded white guys on Game of Thrones. Luckily, there was enough diversity in hairstyles and stuff that this fear proved unfounded, except for one moment:

Spoiler

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When Killmonger killed one of the bald spear ladies and the camera focused on her like it was a big deal, I wasn't sure if I was supposed to care because that was the main character bald spear lady or not. I gather from subsequent events that it was not.

Spoiler: Other Commentary

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When Killmonger took over and laid out his nefarious plot, my reaction was "the bad guy has kind of got a point". But luckily in the end the good guys took what was valuable about the bad guy's point and took it in a much more productive direction.

My main plot-related point of "hm, what?" is this: why did Killmonger choose the moment he did to go from working with Klaue for profit to double-crossing him and enacting his plan? Why not much sooner -- perhaps before the guy who murdered his father died, so as to get some proper direct revenge instead of proxy revenge?

EDIT: Also, if Wakanda has been isolated for so long, why are Wakandans indistinguishable from people from the rest of Africa? I wouldn't mind, I would treat it as artistic license (prostheses to make them look different would be distracting), except a plot moment hinges on confusion whether one character is Wakandan or American (which, ok, half of each, so it's not a super big deal, but still).

EDIT 2: I get that they wanted to reuse the character who had shown up in Civil War, but I'm a little curious why they didn't cast an actual American in place of Martin Freeman, if they were going to make such a big deal about his character being American.

[tiornys]

EDIT: Also, if Wakanda has been isolated for so long, why are Wakandans indistinguishable from people from the rest of Africa? I wouldn't mind, I would treat it as artistic license (prostheses to make them look different would be distracting), except a plot moment hinges on confusion whether one character is Wakandan or American (which, ok, half of each, so it's not a super big deal, but still).

Considering that said character is a half-breed, and there's absolutely no controversy over the fact that he's a half-breed, I think we can assume that Wakanda has brought in plenty of outside blood over the years. Their motivation for isolation is to prevent anyone from abusing the power of vibranium. They're not worried about racial purity or similar concepts.

[Darth Ultron]

Spoiler: question

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My main plot-related point of "hm, what?" is this: why did Killmonger choose the moment he did to go from working with Klaue for profit to double-crossing him and enacting his plan? Why not much sooner -- perhaps before the guy who murdered his father died, so as to get some proper direct revenge instead of proxy revenge?

Spoiler: Answer

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I think this was typical movie making meddling.

I'd guess the original idea was something like Killmonger did not know where Wakanda was. But as Klaw had been there and did know where it was, he was working for him to discover where. (Maybe there is a not-for-kidz torture scene?)

But then in the flashback he has a map to Wakanda?

Seems like two (or more) writers that had someone mash stories together...

EDIT: Also, if Wakanda has been isolated for so long, why are Wakandans indistinguishable from people from the rest of Africa? I wouldn't mind, I would treat it as artistic license (prostheses to make them look different would be distracting), except a plot moment hinges on confusion whether one character is Wakandan or American (which, ok, half of each, so it's not a super big deal, but still).

Wakanda is not so much isolated as it is hidden. They still interact with the world, but put on the show of being a ''typical African nation'', so there is plenty of trade and culture and people mixing.

Of course the real reason is they wanted Wakanda to ''look'' African.

[Douglas]

Spoiler: Other Commentary

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My main plot-related point of "hm, what?" is this: why did Killmonger choose the moment he did to go from working with Klaue for profit to double-crossing him and enacting his plan? Why not much sooner -- perhaps before the guy who murdered his father died, so as to get some proper direct revenge instead of proxy revenge?

Spoiler

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Reasons I can think of:

• Maybe he thought T'Chaka was too tough to be confident of beating him.
• Maybe T'Chaka would have been warier and stopped the challenge, preventing Killmonger's takeover gambit.
• Maybe Killmonger thought attacking Klaue while he still had the stolen vibranium gun was too risky.
• Maybe he simply wasn't completely ready and thought, quite reasonably considering how T'Chaka died, that T'Chaka would live longer.

[FreddyNoNose]

I totally enjoyed the movie. Well done.