Black Panther - AfroFuturism takes on Broadway!!

[Anteros]

Most people said that it was a great movie without mentioning anything about race.

Maybe that happened inside the spoiler boxes that I'm not going to open because I haven't seen the movie yet. The other half of the thread that I can actually read seems to be about afro futurism or something, which doesn't answer my question at all.

[warty goblin]

So putting aside the race aspect that everyone is focusing on, is this movie worth seeing? I typically skip the Marvel movies outside of the main Avengers team of Thor, Cap, and Iron Man. I do usually like Marvel movies, but I'm pretty burnt out on them lately. I didn't even enjoy the new Spiderman, and everyone else seems to love it. Will I need to see this before the new Avengers?

I don't usually enjoy superhero movies all that much, and find most of the Marvel movies I've seen to be sort of dull time filler. I liked Wonder Woman quite well, but as a whole the genre leaves me feeling very eh.

I *loved* Black Panther. The acting was great, the writing was good, people actually behaved like people instead of snarky one-liner generation machines. The story made sense and held together and was actually about something more interesting than the hero discovering themselves so they could yell super-loud and punch the villain in the climactic fight. Most of the fight scenes were good as well, and were actually tense and interesting, instead of more CG spectacle. And the sets and costumes and art design are just gorgeous throughout, with really strong, vivid colors and creative designs. It never looked like a Marvel movie, without that sort of flat grey colorless affect so many of them have going.

9/10 would highly recommend.

[Dr.Samurai]

So putting aside the race aspect that everyone is focusing on, is this movie worth seeing? I typically skip the Marvel movies outside of the main Avengers team of Thor, Cap, and Iron Man. I do usually like Marvel movies, but I'm pretty burnt out on them lately. I didn't even enjoy the new Spiderman, and everyone else seems to love it. Will I need to see this before the new Avengers?

I know we strongly disagree on Justice League, but maybe you'll find this useful anyways lol.

Do you need to see this before Infinity War? No. It's a self-contained story really, which I think is a large part of its appeal at the moment. But if you're not really interested in seeing it except that you might miss out on continuity stuff, I don't think it adds all that much, if anything that we haven't already seen/don't already know.

That said, I think it's a good movie. I can't really get into my issues with it without getting into spoilers, but without knowing much more about your tastes, I'd recommend to go see it.

[Lacuna Caster]

...And the sets and costumes and art design are just gorgeous throughout, with really strong, vivid colors and creative designs. It never looked like a Marvel movie, without that sort of flat grey colorless affect so many of them have going.

Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, Dr. Strange and Thor Ragnarok weren't trippy enough for you?

[Strigon]

So putting aside the race aspect that everyone is focusing on, is this movie worth seeing? I typically skip the Marvel movies outside of the main Avengers team of Thor, Cap, and Iron Man. I do usually like Marvel movies, but I'm pretty burnt out on them lately. I didn't even enjoy the new Spiderman, and everyone else seems to love it. Will I need to see this before the new Avengers?

That's sort of a hard question to answer.
You're asking us for our opinions about a movie, then in the same breath saying that our opinions don't line up well with your own.

If you're burnt out on Marvel movies then, well, this is definitely a Marvel movie. It has some unique traits, but they all have unique traits. I'd say it's definitely a cut above the average Marvel movie, but if you're burnt out on them I'd probably suggest skipping it, if only so you're fresh for Infinity War.

As far as needing to see this, not at all. There really aren't any lasting moments in the movie that drastically change things. At worst, there's a decent chance they'll visit Wakanda and you won't be exactly certain of one or two characters, but you'll catch up pretty quickly.

[warty goblin]

Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, Dr. Strange and Thor Ragnarok weren't trippy enough for you?

Didn't see Ant-Man or Thor Ragnarok, so I can't speak to them. GotG was colorful, but pretty average space opera in terms of art design. Jupiter Ascending, which is not at all a good movie, looked much better. Dr. Strange was trippy sure, but the color scaling felt flat to me somehow. It also felt like watching Iron Man for the umpteenth time, which didn't do it a lot of favors in my eyes. Black Panther just looked great throughout.

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Possible exception being the final battle between Black Panther and Killmonger, which looked like two CG dudes punching in a CG set while wearing nearly identical suits in poor lighting. As I said before, nobody's made superheroes punching each other interesting to me, so this fell pretty flat. Your mileage may vary.

[deuterio12]

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It's not that the superpowers don't fit, so much as it doesn't rely on them to make the story interesting. Would I care about Iron Man if he didn't have a suit of super-armor? Not really, I can barely manage to care about Iron Man with the armor, without it he's just a whiny rich guy. The most interesting drama in Black Panther is centered around not only the characters, but some very topical and rather gnarly questions of history and injustice, and how the characters think about them. That's interesting, regardless of super-pajamas.

And super-powers are hardly necessary to unify people. Otherwise nobody on actual Earth would be remotely united.

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But Wakanda hasn't just been united, it's been united for thousands of years seemingly longer than any other nation/state. No recorded civil war, not temporally conquered by anybody else, just chilling out with the super powered king crushing any bigger threat that shows up.

[Ramza00]

So putting aside the race aspect that everyone is focusing on, is this movie worth seeing? I typically skip the Marvel movies outside of the main Avengers team of Thor, Cap, and Iron Man. I do usually like Marvel movies, but I'm pretty burnt out on them lately. I didn't even enjoy the new Spiderman, and everyone else seems to love it. Will I need to see this before the new Avengers?

It is a bond movie, a very good bond movie. A bond movie where the stakes are both small and big, personal stakes.

Oh the bond character has lots more responsibilities than the traditional James Bond as well. Yet it is still a bond movie. Oh yeah it is also missing some bond movie tropes which some people can argue makes this even better than most bond movies.

[Friv]

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But Wakanda hasn't just been united, it's been united for thousands of years seemingly longer than any other nation/state. No recorded civil war, not temporally conquered by anybody else, just chilling out with the super powered king crushing any bigger threat that shows up.

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First quibble - I believe that Wakanda was said to be 1500 years old, wasn't it? That's still a stupendously long time, but not longer than any other nation has survived. And secondly, we don't actually know that there were never wars - we only know that if there were such civil wars, they never spilled beyond Wakanda's borders, and that there hasn't been one in recent memory. We got a pretty brief overview of Wakandan history.

[deuterio12]

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First quibble - I believe that Wakanda was said to be 1500 years old, wasn't it? That's still a stupendously long time, but not longer than any other nation has survived. And secondly, we don't actually know that there were never wars - we only know that if there were such civil wars, they never spilled beyond Wakanda's borders, and that there hasn't been one in recent memory. We got a pretty brief overview of Wakandan history.

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Wakanda appears prominently in the film Black Panther, which further expands on its background and culture:
...
Wakanda consists of five tribes, four of which were united under the rule of the first Black Panther 10,000 years ago.

And even if there's been some other civil war in the distant past, that Wakanda has shrugged off every invasion attempt for ten millenia is pretty darn good too.

And the only way said civil war couldn't went would be precisely like in the movie-two dudes that went through the heart-shaped leaf ritual going at each other and ending it pretty fast, otherwise any attempt at rebellion would get curbstomped instantly by the black panther. No year/decade/century-long bloody conflict like every other nation had.

[Ramza00]

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Wakanda appears prominently in the film Black Panther, which further expands on its background and culture:
...
Wakanda consists of five tribes, four of which were united under the rule of the first Black Panther 10,000 years ago.

And even if there's been some other civil war in the distant past, that Wakanda has shrugged off every invasion attempt for ten millenia is pretty darn good too.

And the only way said civil war couldn't went would be precisely like in the movie-two dudes that went through the heart-shaped leaf ritual going at each other and ending it pretty fast, otherwise any attempt at rebellion would get curbstomped instantly by the black panther. No year/decade/century-long bloody conflict like every other nation had.

Responding to Deuterio12

MCU history is fake history since it is fictional ^{but it is a very fun fictional history} , but lets do some fake history counter narrative.

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Okay lets grant that the black panther king can put down every rebellion and thus an armed conflict is illogical.

Then you will still see conflict, but it will not be in a direct armed fashion. For example you will poison the black panther king first, you will detain any other black panther kings relatives, and then do an armed rebellion after the black panther king is dead.

Assassination+Riding effectively, where you kill the king and use the "conspiracy" swift mobility to prevent a counter-stroke / counter-attack.

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Furthermore such conspiracy may want to figure out a way to create a genetic heir of the old lineage through marriage after the rebellion, sleeping with a branch house male or female, and so on.

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Over 10,000 years I think such a thing would be inevetiable. 10,000 years is 400 to 500 generations for generations in nature is usually 20 to 25 years. Over 10,000 years it is inevitable that someone with grievance or ambition will figure out a way to have a serious conflict with the black panther king. 400 to 500 generational conflicts will always have someone who is smart enough, or savvy enough, or charismatic popular enough to challenge the existing social order and who has power and who does not.

[deuterio12]

Responding to Deuterio12

MCU history is fake history since it is fictional ^{but it is a very fun fictional history} , but lets do some fake history counter narrative.

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Okay lets grant that the black panther king can put down every rebellion and thus an armed conflict is illogical.

Then you will still see conflict, but it will not be in a direct armed fashion. For example you will poison the black panther king first, you will detain any other black panther kings relatives, and then do an armed rebellion after the black panther king is dead.

Assassination+Riding effectively, where you kill the king and use the "conspiracy" swift mobility to prevent a counter-stroke / counter-attack.

------

Furthermore such conspiracy may want to figure out a way to create a genetic heir of the old lineage through marriage after the rebellion, sleeping with a branch house male or female, and so on.

------

Over 10,000 years I think such a thing would be inevetiable. 10,000 years is 400 to 500 generations for generations in nature is usually 20 to 25 years. Over 10,000 years it is inevitable that someone with grievance or ambition will figure out a way to have a serious conflict with the black panther king. 400 to 500 generational conflicts will always have someone who is smart enough, or savvy enough, or charismatic popular enough to challenge the existing social order and who has power and who does not.

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Again, super powers. The heart-shaped leaf fixed T'Challa from being in the brink of death, he can most probably shrugg of any poison, plus Wakanda has super medicine anyway.

Plus the heart-shaped leaf doesn't only make you stronger and faster, it explicitly also boosts your brain. The Black Panther is thus the smartest/savviest/charismatic in Wakanda. Ok his little sister is the current head of tech, but that's probably because she can dedicate herself full time to research. Still part of the royal family.

Even killmonger the veteran mercenary with contacts and a personal vendetta knew his only chance was going through the formal challenge and win fair and square against an unpowered T'Challa.

[Kato]

My two cents on the movie...
I liked it. I can't say there is anything that stood out to me as exceptional but there is also nothing I really disliked.

OK, I know this is entirely personal but I felt the tech level a little too high. I can't say exactly why it bothers me.. Maybe it's the idea that vibranium is the magical metal that makes everything possible and / or the idea that human advancement across the globe off billions of people working together loses to a few thousand because... Vibranium ?

Also, Serkis felt a little wasted but then again when will the man ever be allowed to have a proper role in his own right.

The political discussion.. I think we better not touch but Marvel really dropped all subtlety there. But I guess sometimes you need to get all up in people's faces?

Overall.. I wouldn't put it above other Marvel movies but also certainly not below them. I guess it's definitely one of the more serious ones even with the occasional joke.. But after Ragnarok's minor tone problems I won't hold that against it.

[Ramza00]

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Again, super powers. The heart-shaped leaf fixed T'Challa from being in the brink of death, he can most probably shrugg of any poison, plus Wakanda has super medicine anyway.

Plus the heart-shaped leaf doesn't only make you stronger and faster, it explicitly also boosts your brain. The Black Panther is thus the smartest/savviest/charismatic in Wakanda. Ok his little sister is the current head of tech, but that's probably because she can dedicate herself full time to research. Still part of the royal family.

Even killmonger the veteran mercenary with contacts and a personal vendetta knew his only chance was going through the formal challenge and win fair and square against an unpowered T'Challa.

Continues the Hobbesian Discussion

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Okay maybe it is not poison, maybe it is killing the Black Panther King in his sleep, or using a bomb. My point is the "superman" hero is still kill-able and you will use subterfuge to kill him not a direct attack. We know the black panther king who has eaten the herb can still die based off the plot of Captain America: Civil War for the previous Black Panther King died due to a bomb.

To borrow a real world quote that is quite horrific. The IRA after trying to murder Margaret Thatcher with a bomb in Brighton, they said “Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once – you will have to be lucky always.”

I find it dis-believable that that lucky vs unlucky has not occurred in the 400 to 500 generations of the 10,000 years of history. The chance of this happen is so unlikely in my mind. But maybe I am wrong, maybe the magic herb macguffin is that powerful and not being a superman you are literally Clark Kent Superman.

[deuterio12]

Continues the Hobbesian Discussion

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Okay maybe it is not poison, maybe it is killing the Black Panther King in his sleep, or using a bomb. My point is the "superman" hero is still kill-able and you will use subterfuge to kill him not a direct attack. We know the black panther king who has eaten the herb can still die based off the plot of Captain America: Civil War for the previous Black Panther King died due to a bomb.

To borrow a real world quote that is quite horrific. The IRA after trying to murder Margaret Thatcher with a bomb in Brighton, they said “Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once – you will have to be lucky always.”

I find it dis-believable that that lucky vs unlucky has not occurred in the 400 to 500 generations of the 10,000 years of history. The chance of this happen is so unlikely in my mind. But maybe I am wrong, maybe the magic herb macguffin is that powerful and not being a superman you are literally Clark Kent Superman.

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For some 9000 years the bomb really wasn't an option. And as Margaret Thatcher showed, she knew how to be lucky always. We live in a world of sniper rifles and assorted explosives, yet most head of states manage to survive them just fine.

Plus even if one black panther does get unlucky, that's for what royal family is there, to pick up the mantle. Killmonger was only a problem because T'Challa's father abandoned him him in the first place, probably the biggest mistake in the previous king's life.

[Ramza00]

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For some 9000 years the bomb really wasn't an option. And as Margaret Thatcher showed, she knew how to be lucky always. We live in a world of sniper rifles and assorted explosives, yet most head of states manage to survive them just fine.

Plus even if one black panther does get unlucky, that's for what royal family is there, to pick up the mantle. Killmonger was only a problem because T'Challa's father abandoned him him in the first place, probably the biggest mistake in the previous king's life.

Deuterio12 I recongize your points as valid, it could be a valid history, it just seems so unlikely considering the dozens of valid histories that could happen and thus it does not cross my "suspension of belief" for I have to make such a large leap of faith that the leap seems to big.

I need more panther god herb, and suddenly then I can make the leap of faith =P

[Legato Endless]

OK, I know this is entirely personal but I felt the tech level a little too high. I can't say exactly why it bothers me.. Maybe it's the idea that vibranium is the magical metal that makes everything possible and / or the idea that human advancement across the globe off billions of people working together loses to a few thousand because... Vibranium ?

This is a film series that was jump-started by one genius in a cave with scraps managing to create something that a later group of scientists backed by a megacorporation's budget proved unable to replicate. The few proving astonishingly more competent than the many is an MCU staple.

Also, Serkis felt a little wasted but then again when will the man ever be allowed to have a proper role in his own right.

Yeah,

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I wish they hadn't killed him off. If really fit within the film, but his character was a ton of fun and I would have enjoyed seeing him around more.

The political discussion.. I think we better not touch but Marvel really dropped all subtlety there. But I guess sometimes you need to get all up in people's faces?

Subtlety can be overrated. This film had a lot more to say about governance than say, Ragnarok. Part of the issue isn't just the film, it's the climate. T'Challa's ending speech could easily be a generic call to human fellowship a few years ago in the 2000s, but in the current environment its much more a rebuke towards the isolationist movements of the last decade.

[Kyberwulf]

I would say go see this movie. It's pretty good. Decent story, music was pretty good. The CG can be pretty jarring at points though. It's one of the better Marvel movies to be sure. It has the feel of Iron Man, or Winter soldier. It tries to tell a story, instead of trying to be funny quip-fest.

[deuterio12]

Deuterio12 I recongize your points as valid, it could be a valid history, it just seems so unlikely considering the dozens of valid histories that could happen and thus it does not cross my "suspension of belief" for I have to make such a large leap of faith that the leap seems to big.

I need more panther god herb, and suddenly then I can make the leap of faith =P

Ah, thank you for the clarification.

[slayerx]

Responding to Deuterio12

MCU history is fake history since it is fictional ^{but it is a very fun fictional history} , but lets do some fake history counter narrative.

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Okay lets grant that the black panther king can put down every rebellion and thus an armed conflict is illogical.

Then you will still see conflict, but it will not be in a direct armed fashion. For example you will poison the black panther king first, you will detain any other black panther kings relatives, and then do an armed rebellion after the black panther king is dead.

Assassination+Riding effectively, where you kill the king and use the "conspiracy" swift mobility to prevent a counter-stroke / counter-attack.

------

Furthermore such conspiracy may want to figure out a way to create a genetic heir of the old lineage through marriage after the rebellion, sleeping with a branch house male or female, and so on.

------

Over 10,000 years I think such a thing would be inevetiable. 10,000 years is 400 to 500 generations for generations in nature is usually 20 to 25 years. Over 10,000 years it is inevitable that someone with grievance or ambition will figure out a way to have a serious conflict with the black panther king. 400 to 500 generational conflicts will always have someone who is smart enough, or savvy enough, or charismatic popular enough to challenge the existing social order and who has power and who does not.

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And who exactly would back such a rebellion and why? Why go through with the rebellion when you could instead simply challenge the king to armed combat? NOt just those of royal blood can fight for the throne; each of the tribes also have the chance to fight for it. In fact THAT is the method that people would most support in changing the king. Also your own rule could be challenged by the other tribes. If you ignore the combat ritual then surely the other tribes would rebel against you, and it would become impossible to actually unite them under your rule. Its basically a plan doomed to failure... heck even killmonger realized the simplest way to take the throne was to simply fight the king for it

Vibranium has allowed wakanda to turn into a utopian society. People who are happy are unlikely to take drastic action against the leaders. Anytime you see a rebellion happen in history you will always see problem within the society that fueled the rebellion. If there are no problems then you don't have many who would be willing to DIE to change things... Furthermore, the combat ritual for choosing kings give powerful opposition figures a legal way they can take the throne. Why try to get people to risk their lives to fight against the current king, when you can just train yourself and fight him for the throne? Rebellions in society are less likely when their is a viable legal way to change things. Most of the time when you see rebellions happen, they happen in societies where the system of government is closed off to the vast majority of people.

Assassinations, successful or not, may have occurred; unlike a rebellion which takes a significant number of people to pull off, a simple assassination only takes a select few. If you think you cna't beat the current king in combat, then have someone kill the king and then fight for the crown against the other candidates. Though killing the king would be easier said than done, due to his powers as the black panther (and getting caught means the end for yourself). Though full scale rebellion may have been avoided due to the circumstances

[Malimar]

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10,000 years is an utterly preposterous number. It's people wanting to deploy big numbers to sound impressive without any comprehension of exactly how big a number 10,000 is. 1,500 is much closer to the realm of reason, albeit still a bit implausible with such an unstable succession method. It is of course ridiculous that one policy of isolation would have held without change for even 1,500 years.

Even over 1,500 years, it's well outside the realm of possibility that they could have done this same ritual for every succession and never had anybody outside the direct descendants of the first Black Panther win it. I could believe that the rulership gets juggled between the main four tribes and it just happens to have fallen back to the descendants of the first Black Panther within the past few generations. It's a little silly that the Jabari have never won it, but I suppose if they hardly ever even deign to try then it's possible.

[GloatingSwine]

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10,000 years is an utterly preposterous number. It's people wanting to deploy big numbers to sound impressive without any comprehension of exactly how big a number 10,000 is. 1,500 is much closer to the realm of reason, albeit still a bit implausible with such an unstable succession method. It is of course ridiculous that one policy of isolation would have held without change for even 1,500 years.

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1500 years isn't unprecedented in reality, let alone the mythmaking of superhero fiction. The Imperial House of Japan has been held by the same dynasty for nearly 2700 years without superpowers. Though the level of power held by the Emperor has fluctuated wildly over that time.

So y'know, a dynastic rule in a relatively small isolated, prosperous, and stable nation being constant over time is not beyond the realm of possibility.

[Rakaydos]

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1500 years isn't unprecedented in reality, let alone the mythmaking of superhero fiction. The Imperial House of Japan has been held by the same dynasty for nearly 2700 years without superpowers. Though the level of power held by the Emperor has fluctuated wildly over that time.

So y'know, a dynastic rule in a relatively small isolated, prosperous, and stable nation being constant over time is not beyond the realm of possibility.

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Especially if, say, some portion of the vibranium-super-serum is hereditary. If the children of a Black Panther are just a bit stronger, faster and smarter than they would be otherwise, even before taking the serum themselves, then holding the title of king even in depowered single combat becomes easier. "Show him who you really are!"

To support this, both the hero and the villian are decendants of the original black panther, and the king's sister heads their R+D Department, not because of nepotisim, but because she is legitimately a tony-stark level geinus.

[Starbuck_II]

Actually, that theory:

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Think about it. Black Panther has sex while empowered by flower. Of course that chemicals is in his seed (no pun intended). So his kids aren't fully normal.

[slayerx]

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10,000 years is an utterly preposterous number. It's people wanting to deploy big numbers to sound impressive without any comprehension of exactly how big a number 10,000 is. 1,500 is much closer to the realm of reason, albeit still a bit implausible with such an unstable succession method. It is of course ridiculous that one policy of isolation would have held without change for even 1,500 years.

Even over 1,500 years, it's well outside the realm of possibility that they could have done this same ritual for every succession and never had anybody outside the direct descendants of the first Black Panther win it. I could believe that the rulership gets juggled between the main four tribes and it just happens to have fallen back to the descendants of the first Black Panther within the past few generations. It's a little silly that the Jabari have never won it, but I suppose if they hardly ever even deign to try then it's possible.

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I agree, though more on the logic that 10,000 years ago seems much too quick for development. I mean the tribes would not only have to discover the vibranium, but they would need to figure out how they could use it, and then you add in a few hundred years of tribes warring over it.

Though instead of 1500 years, I would make it something like 3,000 years. Basically they warred throughout their early history and became united during the bronze age, but did not suffer collapse like many other civilizations. This would give them not only the advantage of vibranium, but also give them a BIG headstart on the rest of the world when it comes to development, thus helping give even further explanation to their advanced tech

And who ever said that the other tribes did not sometimes take the reign of the black panther. Given their rules, the mantle could have easily been passed back and forth between the royal family and the tribes

[Legato Endless]

I can accept a hyperbolic extrapolation of stability. I'm more confused by the assertion that the succession practice has been around since the nation's founding unless I missed it being spelled out in the film proper. Even millennia old dynasties undergo significant cultural shift over time and then paper over the changes.

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To take a too serious look at a film with armored rhinos, it's rather improbable given the intro, (thought not impossible) where the original king is held to be endowed by a goddess to unite the tribes as a Priest King that his children didn't inherit the same divine mandate. It's more likely the monarchy started out hereditary, and gained elective aspects over time than the trial by combat was always in fashion. Probably as form of power sharing and appeasement.

This is also supported by the fact that while it's held onto it's isolationism for a long time, the rest of Wakanda is far from static. Shuri's role in the monarchy is commented on as being nontraditional and violating old mores by M'Baku, and given she's a teenager, her inventions are by definition recent. Wakanda's mining practices for instance have reformed significantly in the past decade or so. We also see a tribal political realignment in the film proper. Odds are that isn't the first time that happened.

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Especially if, say, some portion of the vibranium-super-serum is hereditary. If the children of a Black Panther are just a bit stronger, faster and smarter than they would be otherwise, even before taking the serum themselves, then holding the title of king even in depowered single combat becomes easier. "Show him who you really are!"

To support this, both the hero and the villian are decendants of the original black panther, and the king's sister heads their R+D Department, not because of nepotisim, but because she is legitimately a tony-stark level geinus.

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I'm not sure that fits with the depiction of the first duel scene, unless the edge is slight. M'Baku is not royal, but still comes quite close to winning before giving T'Challa an opportunity for a heroic second wind. It's also implied that the royal family is motivated to offer compensation to the other tribes to disincentivise the idea of a duel actually taking place. The challenge being actually taken up surprises everyone the first time it occurs, and meaningfully, it is taken up by the group with the loosest affiliation to the throne. Which is then taken as a deadly serious threat. So duels are probably pretty rare, as the other tribes get diplomatic incentives from the Monarch that make the risky proposition of fighting the King less attractive.

[No brains]

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Regarding their history, what can we trust of the history of a monarchy with no other sources to back it up?
Wakanda might not be any older than 1992 for all we know. Their cloaking field and magic power not only gives them a monopoly on vibranium, but also the perspective of history.

If the society really did last for ten millennia... maybe they just had some really good bread and circuses.


The movie was fun. They had some neat world building and that spirit burial thing was nifty.

[McStabbington]

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To take a too serious look at a film with armored rhinos, it's rather improbable given the intro, (thought not impossible) where the original king is held to be endowed by a goddess to unite the tribes as a Priest King that his children didn't inherit the same divine mandate. It's more likely the monarchy started out hereditary, and gained elective aspects over time than the trial by combat was always in fashion. Probably as form of power sharing and appeasement.

This is also supported by the fact that while it's held onto it's isolationism for a long time, the rest of Wakanda is far from static. Shuri's role in the monarchy is commented on as being nontraditional and violating old mores by M'Baku, and given she's a teenager, her inventions are by definition recent. Wakanda's mining practices for instance have reformed significantly in the past decade or so. We also see a tribal political realignment in the film proper. Odds are that isn't the first time that happened.

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I didn't see anything that's inconsistent with the idea that the "Royal Family", such as it is, changes dynasties over time. T'Chaka and T'Challa themselves present a pretty stable transition (though Nakia might present a problem, as marriage is usually presented as a major stabilizing influence in monarchies, but Nakia does not appear related to anyone of import), but there's no reason why, if their family lost a fight, they couldn't simply revert to being one of the major noble families while the leader of one of the other noble families takes a turn at being the Black Panther.

That being said, and not directing this specifically at you, but an involved discussion about the duration of the current Wakandan dynasty is kind of beside the point of the film. It's a bit like using The Dark Knight as a springboard to discuss zoning ordinances in Gotham; I mean, you probably could make some inferences, but that's not really what the movie was there for.

I will say, generally and again not responding specifically to you, that there wasn't a lot of ideological difference between Erik Killmonger and Erik Lehnsherr, aka Magneto. They were both violent, brutal villains whose villainy is tempered by the fact that they were radicalized by oppression. Doesn't make them right, or less of a villain. It does mean that they have a point, and that they are not merely generic placeholder villains with aspirations of global/galactic conquest. And I'm a bit saddened that apparently, any discussion of that oppression is considered "political". I won't press it, but I will note that this shouldn't really be a "political" thing.

[Mechalich]

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I didn't see anything that's inconsistent with the idea that the "Royal Family", such as it is, changes dynasties over time. T'Chaka and T'Challa themselves present a pretty stable transition (though Nakia might present a problem, as marriage is usually presented as a major stabilizing influence in monarchies, but Nakia does not appear related to anyone of import), but there's no reason why, if their family lost a fight, they couldn't simply revert to being one of the major noble families while the leader of one of the other noble families takes a turn at being the Black Panther.

That being said, and not directing this specifically at you, but an involved discussion about the duration of the current Wakandan dynasty is kind of beside the point of the film. It's a bit like using The Dark Knight as a springboard to discuss zoning ordinances in Gotham; I mean, you probably could make some inferences, but that's not really what the movie was there for.

I will say, generally and again not responding specifically to you, that there wasn't a lot of ideological difference between Erik Killmonger and Erik Lehnsherr, aka Magneto. They were both violent, brutal villains whose villainy is tempered by the fact that they were radicalized by oppression. Doesn't make them right, or less of a villain. It does mean that they have a point, and that they are not merely generic placeholder villains with aspirations of global/galactic conquest. And I'm a bit saddened that apparently, any discussion of that oppression is considered "political". I won't press it, but I will note that this shouldn't really be a "political" thing.

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I believe Nakia is actually supposed to be a highly placed member of the one of the tribes (I think River but might be misremembering) based on the fact that she stands next to one of the tribal leaders during the first challenge ceremony. That's why it's important for her to attend the ceremony in support at all, not that she used to date the Prince.

So yeah, it seems extremely likely that the tribal identity of the Black Panther has changed over time. Another piece of evidence: M'baku states that T'Challa is the first king to visit the jabarri 'in centuries' not ever. So even that tribe may have occasionally held the throne at some point in the past.

It doesn't really matter if the throne has changed hands from one family to the next over time, it only matters that they have preserved the isolationist tendencies. Since this creed is apparently imposed on Wakandans from very early in childhood it seems something the elite would be willing to maintain and it's only Killmonger as an outsider who's willing to take the ultimate radical step. And we're only really talking about roughly 500-600 years of principled isolationism. Prior to that conditions were so different that it doesn't really matter. Also Wakanda's tech is extremely advanced, but it clearly increases over time along with the rest of humanity, meaning that hundreds of years earlier their ability to project power much beyond the immediate range of central and east Africa (MCU Wakanda appears to occupy what it actually the northwest corner of Kenya) would have been very limited.

[Friv]

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Yep, Nakia is the River Tribe's champion in the succession ceremony.