The Ducal Palace fight in Baldur's Gate would be inexcusable in P&P D&D.

[tchntm43]

Imagine you are playing D&D with friends around a table:

DM: The doppelganger kills the NPC you've never met before named Liia.
Players: Huh, well... not surprising. These things are even harder than regular doppelgangers. Let's keep attacking them.
DM: The doppelganger kills Belt, another NPC you've never met before.
Players: Sucks for them. Let's keep killing the doppelgangers, maybe we can get to Sarevok after.
DM: A mage you've never seen before teleports into the room. He casts Flame Strike and kills you - no, I don't need to roll for damage and you don't need to roll saving throw. You're dead. This campaign is over. I'll have you reroll new characters next session.

It's actually worse than that because there are other seemingly random things that can trigger the automatic death.

[Winthur]

Please, OP, finance an artist to do a Darths & Droids style spoof that pokes fun at how nobody would want to actually play a D&D campaign where one of the characters is a special snowflake exalted child with superpowers and the rest are his lackeys and the DM throws level 5 spellcasters as a fairly constant threat to the level 1 party. On top of that, also arbitrarily enforce restrictions on spells because the DM is literally incapable of imagining flight or teleportation for the player, except multiple enemy mages have no problem with casting Dimension Door. Lastly, nerf the Bard and the Druid for no reason other than you couldn't be bothered with looking up their rules and figured they'd be too complicated.

[Morty]

Well... yeah, that's why it's a computer game and not a PnP scenario.

[Psyren]

Isn't this the game where you can run into Drizz't and Elminster at like level 2, and the game lets you attack them? Balancing every encounter was not the primary focus of that game.

Besides which, lest you forget, the DMG says 5% of encounters are supposed to be "Overpowering", with another 15% being "Very Difficult." So PnP is no better when you get right down to it. I'm pretty sure there are more than 20 fights in BG.

[The Glyphstone]

It sounds like the problem isn't 'overpowering encounter difficulty', but the arbitrary 'Rocks Fall Everyone Dies' moment triggered by running out an invisible timer you don't know about. That is bad design regardless of difficulty.

[Maryring]

It sounds like the problem isn't 'overpowering encounter difficulty', but the arbitrary 'Rocks Fall Everyone Dies' moment triggered by running out an invisible timer you don't know about. That is bad design regardless of difficulty.

This. Also, the timer is random and very short and you have no guaranteed way to stop the timer, since both of the dukes are pretty much defenseless, suicidal and priority targets.

I love the game, but the Ducal Palace fight is one of the few points I actively dislike.

Also, you don't have to fight Drizzle or Elmer Fudd. You can if you want to challenge yourself, but it's not a requirement. The Ducal Palace fight is a storyline encounter that you can't avoid if you want to win the game.

[Winthur]

you have no guaranteed way to stop the timer

Casting Otiluke's Resilient Sphere at Belt or Jiia would be a viable Rules As Written way to make him immune to damage and therefore guaranteeing his safety, but the problem is that ORS is a spell coded with an "attack" flag, which unintentionally causes Winski Perorate to teleport in and nuke you down regardless of the fight's outcome anyway, because you "attacked" plot-critical NPCs. Womp womp. :V

[Maryring]

Casting Otiluke's Resilient Sphere at Belt or Jiia would be a viable Rules As Written way to make him immune to damage and therefore guaranteeing his safety, but the problem is that ORS is a spell coded with an "attack" flag, which unintentionally causes Winski Perorate to teleport in and nuke you down regardless of the fight's outcome anyway, because you "attacked" plot-critical NPCs. Womp womp. :V

See, I read this post and was just about to go "but that's an attack" and... yeah. There really should be a way to remove vulnerable, plot critical elements from a fight that doesn't result in said attempt at salvation making the NPC hostile.

[Psyren]

It sounds like the problem isn't 'overpowering encounter difficulty', but the arbitrary 'Rocks Fall Everyone Dies' moment triggered by running out an invisible timer you don't know about. That is bad design regardless of difficulty.

And that's fine, but that's a problem with that specific encounter design, not CRPGs in general.

Besides, you can absolutely do something that unfair in P&P, you're just likely to get a PHB upside the head if you try

[Kish]

It'd be more a matter of,
DM: The doppelganger kills Liia.
Players: Huh, well... not surprising. These things are even harder than regular doppelgangers. Let's keep attacking them.
DM: The doppelganger kills Belt.
Players: Sucks for them. Let's keep killing the doppelgangers, maybe we can get to Sarevok after.
DM: Sarevok leaves by the door.
Players: Bah, I guess we'll have to chase him later. *finishes the fight* Now--
DM: Dozens of guards swarm into the room and attack you.
Players: What?! Why? We're the good guys!
DM: The only Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate is now Sarevok. Your arrest order has been upgraded to a kill on sight order and your goal just became literally impossible with resources you're anywhere close to having.
Players: What, because two shlubbo noname-zakis died?! This isn't fair!
DM: ...Why is it my fault you tuned out when I explained the government structure of Baldur's Gate and the nature and goal of Sarevok's scheme? Multiple times?

[LibraryOgre]

It'd be more a matter of,
DM: The doppelganger kills Liia.
Players: Huh, well... not surprising. These things are even harder than regular doppelgangers. Let's keep attacking them.
DM: The doppelganger kills Belt.
Players: Sucks for them. Let's keep killing the doppelgangers, maybe we can get to Sarevok after.
DM: Sarevok leaves by the door.
Players: Bah, I guess we'll have to chase him later. *finishes the fight* Now--
DM: Dozens of guards swarm into the room and attack you.
Players: What?! Why? We're the good guys!
DM: The only Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate is now Sarevok. Your arrest order has been upgraded to a kill on sight order and your goal just became literally impossible with resources you're anywhere close to having.
Players: What, because two shlubbo noname-zakis died?! This isn't fair!
DM: ...Why is it my fault you tuned out when I explained the government structure of Baldur's Gate and the nature and goal of Sarevok's scheme? Multiple times?

I already know EXACTLY which player of mine this is. The one who keeps interrupting any explanation given, and then is surprised by development such as "The vampires killed the corpses you found but wouldn't shut up during the description of your findings."

Literally, last night it was "Wait, Waterdeep is destroyed?"
"Yes. I told you last week about the column of silver light that descended from the sky in that direction."
"I don't remember that."
"You were explaining to everyone how your character never talks."

[Cazero]

It'd be more a matter of,
DM: The doppelganger kills Liia.
Players: Huh, well... not surprising. These things are even harder than regular doppelgangers. Let's keep attacking them.
DM: The doppelganger kills Belt.
Players: Sucks for them. Let's keep killing the doppelgangers, maybe we can get to Sarevok after.
DM: Sarevok leaves by the door.
Players: Bah, I guess we'll have to chase him later. *finishes the fight* Now--
DM: Dozens of guards swarm into the room and attack you.
Players: What?! Why? We're the good guys!
DM: The only Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate is now Sarevok. Your arrest order has been upgraded to a kill on sight order and your goal just became literally impossible with resources you're anywhere close to having.
Players: What, because two shlubbo noname-zakis died?! This isn't fair!
DM: ...Why is it my fault you tuned out when I explained the government structure of Baldur's Gate and the nature and goal of Sarevok's scheme? Multiple times?

Except for the fact you already spent an entire chapter being hunted by the Flaming Fist who were already doing the kill on sight thing. The player never neded any support from the dukes to oppose Sarevok, so from a gameplay perspective, there are exaclty two differences : you missed an easy shot at Sarevok, and the pretense of open war will allow the personal army he already had to take more obvious security measures. I certainly makes your job harder, but impossible? I don't think so.
And considering the game have you chasing him to his death immediately after that encounter, it's even questionable how the dukes being dead would have the time to impact anything.

What it justifies is a bad ending epilogue about the city falling apart or something. But since the game allows you to play an Evil dickwad, it's perfectly possible that CHARNAME wouldn't care.

[Kish]

Yeah, that just makes me want to repeat the last line I gave the DM there.

Fact is, if you decided your goal was "assassinate Sarevok," rather than "expose Sarevok's scheme to the Grand Dukes and stop him from seizing total power in Baldur's Gate," you were ignoring everything the game actually told you beyond "your enemy will be at the Ducal Palace." The game has you "chasing him to the death" as he hides in a ruined temple of Bhaal with his most fanatical followers and the surviving Dukes support you going after him, not you trying to assassinate the sole Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate; choosing not to see a difference there would get you an "implied facepalm" look from a DM I'd consider competent.

Considering that--as I pointed out--with the other two Dukes dead Sarevok is the supreme power in Baldur's Gate, and he can provably teleport away from you...why exactly would he ever stand and face you in that circumstance?

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, that just makes me want to repeat the last line I gave the DM there.

Fact is, if you decided your goal was "assassinate Sarevok," rather than "expose Sarevok's scheme to the Grand Dukes and stop him from seizing total power in Baldur's Gate," you were ignoring everything the game actually told you beyond "your enemy will be at the Ducal Palace." The game has you "chasing him to the death" as he hides in a ruined temple of Bhaal with his most fanatical followers and the surviving Dukes support you going after him, not you trying to assassinate the sole Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate; choosing not to see a difference there would get you an "implied facepalm" look from a DM I'd consider competent.

Considering that--as I pointed out--with the other two Dukes dead Sarevok is the supreme power in Baldur's Gate, and he can provably teleport away from you...why exactly would he ever stand and face you in that circumstance?

He can't seize total power in Baldur's Gate if he's dead, can he now?

The "support" of the grand dukes is more moral support than practical, they sit in their manors thinking good thoughts about you and your activities. You could just as easily have chased Sarevok down without their "support", especially since the route to him isn't through anything they control but through the thieves guild....

[Cazero]

Fact is, if you decided your goal was "assassinate Sarevok," rather than "expose Sarevok's scheme to the Grand Dukes and stop him from seizing total power in Baldur's Gate," you were ignoring everything the game actually told you beyond "your enemy will be at the Ducal Palace."

The fact remains that killing Sarevok to stop his evil scheme is still an option, even without any dukes to clear your name afterwards.

Considering that--as I pointed out--with the other two Dukes dead Sarevok is the supreme power in Baldur's Gate, and he can provably teleport away from you...why exactly would he ever stand and face you in that circumstance?

Same reason he tried to kill you since the start of the game : the simple fact you are a Bhaalspawn makes you a thorn in his side and he wants you dead. Eventualy he'll realise that none of his mooks are up to the task of killing you and will be forced to take matters in his own hands.

[Kish]

He can't seize total power in Baldur's Gate if he's dead, can he now?

The "support" of the grand dukes is more moral support than practical, they sit in their manors thinking good thoughts about you and your activities. You could just as easily have chased Sarevok down without their "support", especially since the route to him isn't through anything they control but through the thieves guild....

And how exactly do you imagine you find that out? Since (in your and Cazero's assertions) the Grand Dukes don't do anything relevant.

Same reason he tried to kill you since the start of the game : the simple fact you are a Bhaalspawn makes you a thorn in his side and he wants you dead. Eventualy he'll realise that none of his mooks are up to the task of killing you and will be forced to take matters in his own hands.

Pfft, seriously? If you're determined to assert your right to make up your own plot, you'll get less pushback if you don't try to impose it in place of something that already has a strong plot...

...actually, I just realized, you (and now GloatingSwine) are arguing for actively ignoring all the non-combat parts of Chapter Seven. The game is unambiguous: You need to go to the Ducal Palace, to stop Sarevok from assassinating the two remaining Grand Dukes and to reveal his scheme to them (which does require them being alive). You're brushing all the reasoning aside in favor of "go where I'm led and kill what has red circles," followed by shock and outrage that that was inadequate. At which point, we can agree on one thing: it would be better for you not to play with a DM who sets up anything like the Baldur's Gate plot.

[Keltest]

The fact remains that killing Sarevok to stop his evil scheme is still an option, even without any dukes to clear your name afterwards.


Same reason he tried to kill you since the start of the game : the simple fact you are a Bhaalspawn makes you a thorn in his side and he wants you dead. Eventualy he'll realise that none of his mooks are up to the task of killing you and will be forced to take matters in his own hands.

What you seem to be missing is that by the time you get to the Ducal Palace, Sarevok is not actually an active part of the problem anymore. Without the other dukes, his plan is already in motion and killing him wont actually stop the impending war with Amn. While it would be personally satisfying to kill him, if the Dukes are dead you have already lost.

[bluntpencil]

I never thought saving the Dukes was that hard.

Besides, if they die they can get Raised, most likely.

[GloatingSwine]

Right, but explain how being dead does not impede Sarevok's plan.

CHARNAME might care about the stability of Baldur's Gate and thus preserving the Grand Dukes, but they equally might only care about avenging their dead stepfather and following the urge to conflict in their Bhaalspawn blood.

It's quite possible they can arrive at the palace fully willing to allow the government of the city to perish as long as they take Sarevok, who is present, down.

But a magic railroading DM not only says no but instantly kills the party if they don't play the one true way.

That's a straight PHB-to-the-face offence, corner first for the aggravated rocks fall everyone dies.

[Keltest]

Right, but explain how being dead does not impede Sarevok's plan.

CHARNAME might care about the stability of Baldur's Gate and thus preserving the Grand Dukes, but they equally might only care about avenging their dead stepfather and following the urge to conflict in their Bhaalspawn blood.

It's quite possible they can arrive at the palace fully willing to allow the government of the city to perish as long as they take Sarevok, who is present, down.

But a magic railroading DM not only says no but instantly kills the party if they don't play the one true way.

That's a straight PHB-to-the-face offence, corner first for the aggravated rocks fall everyone dies.

Because Charname doesn't want to be held responsible for a bunch of murders they didn't commit and chased up and down the sword coast by the Flaming Fist and the Iron Throne.

At some point, the players need to buy into the idea that their characters have an iota of concern about the plot. If somebody threw a PHB at me for expecting that, i'd throw the DM guide right back at them, and then kick them out of my house for assaulting me without cause.

[Yora]

I completed the game six times, and somehow I have no clue what this is all about.

[LibraryOgre]

I completed the game six times, and somehow I have no clue what this is all about.

It's a fairly brief scene; you get back to Baldur's Gate from Candlekeep, get whisked to the Ducal Palace with a fake invitation, give your evidence against Sarevok, and then the dopplegangers show up.

I gotta agree with Keltest, here... Sarevok's position as sole grand duke of Baldur's Gate significantly changes the game, and obviates his need to flee to the temple of Bhaal.

[GloatingSwine]

Because Charname doesn't want to be held responsible for a bunch of murders they didn't commit and chased up and down the sword coast by the Flaming Fist and the Iron Throne.

At some point, the players need to buy into the idea that their characters have an iota of concern about the plot. If somebody threw a PHB at me for expecting that, i'd throw the DM guide right back at them, and then kick them out of my house for assaulting me without cause.

Again though, some versions of Charname might not actually care whether they're blamed for a lot of murders they didn't commit alongside the lots of murders they actually did commit.

Bear in mind that one of the possible interpretations of the character is that they find out they're a scion of the actual God of Murder and rather like the idea.

The players might buy into a different part of the plot than the GM anticipated, and the Baldur's Gate solution of instant death if they do it wrong is epically poor GMing.

[Kish]

Right, but explain how being dead does not impede Sarevok's plan.

Sure...as soon as you address the fact that there is no actually possible way for the Ducal Palace fight to end with him dead. If you save the dukes and show them the evidence like the whole chapter points you toward, Winski teleports him out. If you go in thinking "screw all this evidence crap, I just need to hit Sarevok as hard as I can," your character winds up dead from stupidity. You can complain about the cosmetic implementation of "you're now in a walking dead state, Flame Strike," but that's what it is--cosmetic implementation of the fact that your character has just stupidly guaranteed they cannot win and the designers chose to take you straight to the Game Over screen in that case--and so that's functionally identical to complaining about Arkanis Gath in BG2.

And if Dukes Belt and Lia die, the person in charge of arranging resurrections for the dead Dukes would probably be the surviving Duke. How he's going to keep postponing that after you're dead...is a matter you won't be around to worry about.

[GloatingSwine]

Sure...as soon as you address the fact that there is no actually possible way for the Ducal Palace fight to end with him dead. If you save the dukes and show them the evidence like the whole chapter points you toward, Winski teleports him out. If you go in thinking "screw all this evidence crap, I just need to hit Sarevok as hard as I can," your character winds up dead from stupidity. You can complain about the cosmetic implementation of "you're now in a walking dead state, Flame Strike," but that's what it is--cosmetic implementation of the fact that your character has just stupidly guaranteed they cannot win and the designers chose to take you straight to the Game Over screen in that case--and so that's functionally identical to complaining about Arkanis Gath in BG2.

And if Dukes Belt and Lia die, the person in charge of arranging resurrections for the dead Dukes would probably be the surviving Duke. How he's going to keep postponing that after you're dead...is a matter you won't be around to worry about.

Yeah, but the point of the thread is how if you had this sort of "do it my way or game over" around a tabletop your players would revolt.

The party is expected to be able to fight Sarevok at this point in the plot, and the only reason they can't do it at the palace (when he's out of armour and away from most of his non-doppelganger minions and therefore more vulnerable) is because an NPC wizard who they have never seen or heard of magically teleports him away.

It's peak railroading which would cause an absolute tableflip if you did it as a live GM.

[Yora]

It's a fairly brief scene; you get back to Baldur's Gate from Candlekeep, get whisked to the Ducal Palace with a fake invitation, give your evidence against Sarevok, and then the dopplegangers show up.

I gotta agree with Keltest, here... Sarevok's position as sole grand duke of Baldur's Gate significantly changes the game, and obviates his need to flee to the temple of Bhaal.

It's a bit excessively moustache twirling. But then, just take a look at how the guy is dressed. It's not like he isn't a cartoony supervillain to begin with.

[Keltest]

Yeah, but the point of the thread is how if you had this sort of "do it my way or game over" around a tabletop your players would revolt.

The party is expected to be able to fight Sarevok at this point in the plot, and the only reason they can't do it at the palace (when he's out of armour and away from most of his non-doppelganger minions and therefore more vulnerable) is because an NPC wizard who they have never seen or heard of magically teleports him away.

It's peak railroading which would cause an absolute tableflip if you did it as a live GM.

First off, its a video game. Its railroading by definition.

Secondly, without the support of the other dukes, then youre just marching into the palace and trying to murder a more or less legitimate official of the city. Beyond the fact that Sarevok himself is still well protected, the palace defenders and the Flaming Fist will be all over you for walking out of a corpse-filled room in the palace. Theres no situation where you escape the city alive even if you do kill Sarevok

[GloatingSwine]

First off, its a video game. Its railroading by definition.

Read the thread title again....

(And to be honest even for a videogame it's pretty clumsy railroading of the kind that people usually notice and complain about)

[Kish]

Yeah, but the point of the thread is how if you had this sort of "do it my way or game over" around a tabletop your players would revolt.

The party is expected to be able to fight Sarevok at this point in the plot,

Back the hell up.

"The party is expected"--what's under the passive voice here?

"The game expects"--manifestly not, or you would have nothing to complain about.

"Whiny, entitled players expect" is the accurate version here.

Here, you suggest:

an NPC wizard who they have never seen or heard of magically teleports him away.

...that the villain of the entire campaign, someone who is long established to have many wizards serving him, is cheating if he gets teleported away by a wizard who hasn't specifically given you his resume before. What? How does that look valid to you even for the time it took you to compose that post?

Again--for at least the fourth time now--the game is perfectly clear. You're going to the Ducal Palace to prevent the Grand Dukes from being assassinated and to reveal Sarevok's scheme to them. If you decide, instead, "Actually, all the running around Baldur's Gate I did was only about getting the invitation so I could get a shot at him," that's your problem alone.

It's peak railroading which would cause an absolute tableflip if you did it as a live GM.

It's the most basic of "having a plot." The freaking out you're doing about it would make me happy to have a player who took the same attitude out of my game forever, as a live DM.

[GloatingSwine]

Back the hell up.

"The party is expected"--what's under the passive voice here?

There’s nothing under it. It’s a strict mechanical assessment of the campaign design. The party is in the exact same state it is going to be in for the final boss fight.

This is expected to be a party capable of engaging the big bad and winning.

...that the villain of the entire campaign, someone who is long established to have many wizards serving him, is cheating if he gets teleported away by a wizard who hasn't specifically given you his resume before. What? How does that look valid to you even for the time it took you to compose that post?

Go and peruse some of the old railroad threads in the RPG section. The Big Bad escaping a confrontation through a heretofore unknown capability without giving the players a chance to act meaningfully to stop them is one of the more common acts of a GM in panic mode because their campaign tried to go somewhere they didn’t want.

Again--for at least the fourth time now--the game is perfectly clear. You're going to the Ducal Palace to prevent the Grand Dukes from being assassinated and to reveal Sarevok's scheme to them. If you decide, instead, "Actually, all the running around Baldur's Gate I did was only about getting the invitation so I could get a shot at him," that's your problem alone.


It's the most basic of "having a plot." The freaking out you're doing about it would make me happy to have a player who took the same attitude out of my game forever, as a live DM.

And again, it’s a contrived reason not to allow the players to have the confrontation with the big bad on their own terms because you thought of a cool underground temple you want to have it in and if they don’t want to play along then you’ll kill all their characters and they can do it your way next time.