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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    So how does everyone feel about the Arena banning of Nexus for 1-of games?

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    Default Re: MTG: Two Headed Giant: Hexproof & Teammate abilities

    It is correct that his creatures would all die, but not really for the reason you thought. Indeed, your partner in two-headed giant is not your opponent. Therefore, hexproof does not prevent you from targeting their things. However, in the case of Hour of Revelation it doesn't matter. Hour of Revelation hits all permanents--it doesn't target anything at all--so hexproof wouldn't protect any creature from it, regardless of the player who cast it.

    Compare this to a removal spell like Doom Blade, which calls for you to destroy a targeted creature, or, in a more mass-removal example, Hex, which also calls for its caster to target creatures. Long story short--the word 'target' on the card is what you're looking for.

    Edit: Read Hour of Devastation instead of Hour of Revelation--both behave the same way in this case but just didn't want to make things confusing.
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    Default Re: MTG: Two Headed Giant: Hexproof & Teammate abilities

    His spells are not affect, because they are not permanents.

    His permanents were affected, because it does not target, which is all that hexproof prevents. Its not 'inmunity to sorcery / instants / effects'.

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    Default Re: MTG: Two Headed Giant: Hexproof & Teammate abilities

    Thank you for the responses - that is more clear to me now. Hexproof stops targeting, but not sweeping effects. I play with a group of 6 people and we've all started playing about 6 weeks ago, so we are all very new.

    As long as I'm asking about effects I obviously don't understand, on the same turn:
    One of my opponents played an instant that gave all her creatures indestructible. We assumed that meant they couldn't be destroyed by my HOR. Is that correct? Or does indestructible also work different than how I think?

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    Default Re: MTG: Two Headed Giant: Hexproof & Teammate abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Karnitis View Post
    Thank you for the responses - that is more clear to me now. Hexproof stops targeting, but not sweeping effects. I play with a group of 6 people and we've all started playing about 6 weeks ago, so we are all very new.

    As long as I'm asking about effects I obviously don't understand, on the same turn:
    One of my opponents played an instant that gave all her creatures indestructible. We assumed that meant they couldn't be destroyed by my HOR. Is that correct? Or does indestructible also work different than how I think?
    Indestructible means it can not be destroyed. What does destroyed mean? Dead through lethal damage, dead through destroy effects. Thats it. If something exiles, indestructible wont prevent it. Neither will it stop being sent to the graveyard due to having 0 thoughness (from -x/-x effects), or other non-destroy removal options (like sacrifice).

  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    So how does everyone feel about the Arena banning of Nexus for 1-of games?
    It's a quick patch job for a much larger problem that will be more difficult to solve, specifically how to make combos, especially ones that involve loops, play out in a reasonable amount of time. In paper you can say "I do this 20 times", and if your opponent can't or doesn't interrupt it then you quickly work out the end result and apply it. Arena needs some equivalent to that. And in paper, if you're at an organized event where who wins really matters, if your opponent starts an optional infinite loop and refuses to stop then you can call over a judge to force an end without conceding.

    Even within that category, though, Nexus is especially tricky to solve in software because its loop spans multiple turns, involves a random element (shuffling the library), and may have other actions irregularly interspersed in it.

    I understand why they did it and agree it was a problem, but long term I don't think it's the right solution, and I really hope they start trying to tackle the bigger problem too.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhentarim View Post
    What really puzzles me is opposite of blue!
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    Default Re: MTG: Two Headed Giant: Hexproof & Teammate abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hellbug View Post
    Long story short--the word 'target' on the card is what you're looking for.
    This deserves special emphasis, the word "target" has specific rules significance. There are a relatively small number of cards that involve choosing something but do not use the word "target" in doing so. These cards do not count as targeting the chosen thing, and thus are not blocked by hexproof. One currently-in-Standard example is Metamorphic Alteration. This card has you "choose a creature" to copy rather than "target a creature", and therefore can be used to copy an opponent's hexproof creature such as Carnage Tyrant

    Note, however, that the rules for how an Enchantment - Aura card works do use the word "target", so you would not be able to use Metamorphic Alteration to turn your opponent's Carnage Tyrant into a copy of a 0/1 token that happens to be on the field. The creature that you choose to put the aura on does get targeted, so hexproof blocks it.
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    Default Re: MTG: Two Headed Giant: Hexproof & Teammate abilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Karnitis View Post
    I think I found the answer, but none were my exact situation so I'd love y'all's opinion.

    Playing two headed giant, where my teammate had angel that gave hexproof to all his creatures. I played Hour of Revelation, which destroys non-land permanents.

    Was it correctly ruled that since Hexproof is only hexproof from opponents, that I accidentally wiped his creatures too? Or would his spells been safe from HOR?
    The outcome of the ruling is correct - your teammate's creatures are destroyed. It's also absolutely correct that hexproof on permanents is defined by Magic rule 702.11b as "This permanent can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control", and that a teammate is not an opponent.

    However, the reason the ruling is correct is different than you think. It has nothing to do with hexproof! Even if your teammates' creatures had Shroud, which is defined as "This permanent or player can't be the target of spells or abilities", Hour of Revelation would still destroy them.

    Why? Because Hour of Relevation doesn't target. The word doesn't appear on the card. It simply destroys all nonland permanents. The only permanents left unscathed will be:

    a) lands,
    b) nonland permanents with indestructible (because while Hour of Relevation doesn't target, it certainly destroys),
    c) nonland creatures that were regenerated.

    Hexproof, Shroud and even Protection from White do not help against Hour of Relevation and other Wrath effects (named after the classic card Wrath of God).
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhentarim View Post
    What really puzzles me is opposite of blue! Why would anybody with any thinking capability be nonblue, philosophically speaking?
    It just means they don't put a lot of value in knowledge.

    By the same logic:
    Why would anyone with emotions be nonred?
    Why would anyone enjoys any kind of structure be nonwhite?
    Why would anyone with any ambitions be nonblack?
    Why would anyone who cares at all about the world be nongreen?


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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Characters of any color can put value in knowledge. Only Blue pursues knowledge for the sake of itself.

    White and Black are the ally colors of Blue because their purposes naturally align - White wants to help society prosper and preserve order, and knowledge is helpful for both ends, and Black wants power - and knowledge, particularly of magic, can easily be turned into power.

    Red characters can still value knowledge as a tool that helps them live free. They just have little patience for anything without practical application.

    Green characters value knowledge insofar as it helps them understand nature as it already is, because Green wants to honor and preserve the natural order of things. Think of botanists, zoologists, herbalists - scientists in these professions nowadays are often careful to study nature while causing the least possible amount of disturbance. The classic Green scholar in Magic is the druid.

    A character is only Blue if their mind while studying is not focused on what they can get out of it - if they pursue knowledge simply because it's there. A medical student who pounds the books because they have a clear goal of saving lives and helping people, is a White scholar. A medical student who knows they can one day pick a specialty that helps them rake in the cash, even if they have to work hard for now, is a Black scholar. A Blue medical student would simply be fascinated by the workings of the human body and seek to best understand it - and later work as a doctor simply because it pays the bills and allows them to keep advancing their understanding.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    In addition to the pursuit of knowledge, blue is also defined by believing that everyone can, and should, improve themselves. Mostly, this is through knowledge, but you could say that going to the gym for getting strong is also a blue pursuit.

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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by mythmonster2 View Post
    In addition to the pursuit of knowledge, blue is also defined by believing that everyone can, and should, improve themselves. Mostly, this is through knowledge, but you could say that going to the gym for getting strong is also a blue pursuit.
    Going to the gym is definitely not blue. It might be less blue than any of the other colors.
    It might fit the side of green that cares about raw power the most.
    Last edited by Ninjaman; 2019-02-15 at 11:19 AM.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Going to the gym is definitely not blue. It might be less blue than any of the other colors.
    It might fit the side of green that cares about raw power the most.
    I think self improvement for a better life is blue or blue green.

    Workout for body and to get swole would be green red or green.

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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by mythmonster2 View Post
    In addition to the pursuit of knowledge, blue is also defined by believing that everyone can, and should, improve themselves. Mostly, this is through knowledge, but you could say that going to the gym for getting strong is also a blue pursuit.
    That stretches the scope of Blue too much. If Blue covers all types of self-improvement - including those that don't involve learning - does that mean Red is solely made up of hedonists or layabouts?

    Working out for the purpose of gaining physical strength is Red self-improvement. Physical strength is not a particularly useful asset if you're Blue, because Blue doesn't overcome obstacles with brute force - it tries to do so through superior knowledge or skill. Physical strength is great if you're Red.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Blue is often portrayed as being about transcending/circumventing limitations, or changing the world around you to work better. Our canonical examples of Blue characters have definitely tapped into physical self-improvement... just, uh, mostly by replacing bits of themselves with metal or zombie flesh or something.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Improving your body by a clear and planned exercise routine is actually cited by example in Mark Rosewater's Blue podcast as an example of blue behavior. It is also something Red might do, but probably because exercising makes you feel good so Red would be like "I like exercising so I'm gonna do it!"

    Blue actually has had some body improvement, although not really by exercising in Magic. It turns out exercising is much less efficient than replacing half your body with Etherium or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    So how does everyone feel about the Arena banning of Nexus for 1-of games?
    The card was a mistake so I expect it to be banned in Standard sometime. I think some of the pros suggested that they didn't want to ban the card a week before their major tournament, but they might ban it after.
    Last edited by tgva8889; 2019-02-16 at 12:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889 View Post
    Improving your body by a clear and planned exercise routine is actually cited by example in Mark Rosewater's Blue podcast as an example of blue behavior.
    Weird that he said "blue" rather than "white."
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    Which is why trying to find clear-cut "philosophies" for each color and color combination is pointless; the terms are purposefully vague to avoid cutting too much design space and being able to still cover mechanical / flavor deviations when the set calls for it.

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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    I have to repeat my rant about shock and check lands in standard. I'll probably never play a standard game outside MTGA due to the price of a single shock or repeat land being 10$+. Cynics would tell me to never get into MTG as a hobby if that is the price point that worries me.

    But I like that game, and honestly limited as well as commander (and other formats where a "perfect" mana base is rarer) sound quite enticing. But I still want a bit of agenda in standard because I assume you cannot avoid people challenging you to a standard game.

    I'd really like Izzet (or Dimir) for that, and while both lands types are far from necessary, they improve the performance quite a bit (check lands more than shock lands which can in 80% of cases be replaced by tapped lands). But honestly, spending 45ish dollars alone for a solid mana base for a single deck (and not even having it be a PERFECT mana base) is outlandish.

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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    I have to repeat my rant about shock and check lands in standard.
    No you don't.


    "I'll probably never play a standard game outside MTGA due to the price of a single shock or repeat land being 10$+. Cynics would tell me to never get into MTG as a hobby if that is the price point that worries me.
    Why are we cynics? It's a hobby, it costs money. Pay the money you are willing to spend, and play what you can play for that amount.


    But I still want a bit of agenda in standard because I assume you cannot avoid people challenging you to a standard game.
    I'm sorry, what? Do you think this is like in an anime, where someone just walks up and challenges you and you have to play?
    If you want to play standard you go to standard tournaments. If you don't have a standard deck, don't go to standard tournaments. You don't have to play standard outside of standard tournaments.


    I'd really like Izzet (or Dimir) for that, and while both lands types are far from necessary, they improve the performance quite a bit (check lands more than shock lands which can in 80% of cases be replaced by tapped lands).
    Shock lands can't be replaced by tapped lands in 80% of cases. They'll come into play untapped more often than not probably, and when they do it will matter a whole lot.
    If you want to play on a budget that's fine, your deck doesn't need to be completely optimized. But that 80% figure is false.


    But honestly, spending 45ish dollars alone for a solid mana base for a single deck (and not even having it be a PERFECT mana base) is outlandish.
    Then don't spend it. But do stop complaining. It's a hobby, hobbies cost money. I've said it before and I'll gladly repeat it.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Honestly. Magic isn't a hobby where you can avoid spending money. It just doesn't work like that. New sets comes up out a handful of times a year if you're playing Standard, and extended formats are expensive.

    The other day I was at a store for a Monday Night Modern and some poor soul came in asking about what it takes to get into the format. I don't think the store owner was very happy with me saying you have to spend about 500-1500 USD just to have a competitive deck. Some hobbies are more expensive than others. I don't buy into W40K because I don't want to put that investment in. That's a fine stance to have.

    Repeatedly complaining about the price of card X or Y though? That's just futile. You complaining on some forum isn't going to magically make the card cheaper than it was beforehand. The only thing it's going to do is rehash the conversation over and over, and I don't see how that advances your situation or position in any way.

    Magic is not cheap if you are playing competitive cards. It will never be as long as it is a TCG. To complain about magic prices is to fundamentally misunderstand what MtG is.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    Magic is not cheap if you are playing competitive cards. It will never be as long as it is a TCG. To complain about magic prices is to fundamentally misunderstand what MtG is.
    I agree up to this point. I really understand what a TCG is, and I understand Wizards wants to make money off of it. Otherwise special lands would not be rare but rather uncommon.

    And I agree that paying a good price for a center piece of a deck (like Niv-Mizzet, or Teferi or whatever) is a reasonable thing. But for lands? They are the basis of any deck, special or not. I feel it is exploitative that these have the rarity they do have.

    Special lands like Cabal Stronghold or Detection Towers I am quite okay with being rarer, but not the very basic things you need to get a dual color deck going.

    Then don't spend it. But do stop complaining. It's a hobby, hobbies cost money. I've said it before and I'll gladly repeat it.
    I have a right to complain here as much as you do have a right to not accept my opinion. You do however have a right to ignore my posts if you dislike my pieces.
    Last edited by Spore; 2019-02-23 at 12:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    I do agree that price of rare duals act as gatekeepers. They're what make constructed decks, whether Standard, Modern, or Legacy/Vintage the price that they are, and I think they're too high. And I would be more enticed to play Standard if it were cheaper to get into the format. I'm waiting to see what will be in the Challenger Decks, if they have a half-decent manabase I might consider them.

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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    I mean casual magic can be played for the price of 10 seconds and a crappy printer. The prices only really matter for competitive magic, and it isn't any more expensive then a similar hobby. My legacy 12 post costs the same as a single years big game hunting.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889 View Post

    The card was a mistake so I expect it to be banned in Standard sometime. I think some of the pros suggested that they didn't want to ban the card a week before their major tournament, but they might ban it after.
    That or they'll just ignore it till it rotates this summer, or am I misremembering when core set cards rotate?

    Honestly it wasn't a problem unless people didn't have enough wildcards to make hydroid krasises yet.

    Special lands like Cabal Stronghold or Detection Towers I am quite okay with being rarer, but not the very basic things you need to get a dual color deck going.
    you do not need any dual lands for two colors.; proper deck construction will let you use basics just fine. Admittedly things get far more complicated after 2 colors, but at 2? you don't need them.

    Also, shock lands and checklands are the cheapest they've ever been right now.
    Last edited by 9mm; 2019-02-23 at 05:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    I have a right to complain here as much as you do have a right to not accept my opinion. You do however have a right to ignore my posts if you dislike my pieces.
    And I also have the right to point out that I dislike your pieces, and explain why I think what you're saying is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    you do not need any dual lands for two colors.; proper deck construction will let you use basics just fine. Admittedly things get far more complicated after 2 colors, but at 2? you don't need them.
    This is false. You'd be better off playing some tapped lands than playing all basics. Needing to hit 1CC on an all basics mana base can really screw you over hard. It's even worse with CC cards, and also a problem with 2CC. Keeping 2 mana hands will rarely be doable, as half the time you will not have one of each.
    And if you split it down the middle with 12 lands of each, that's 1 in five cards being a land of that color, giving you only about 60% chance of one of them actually showing up in your opening hand. This gets much harder when you need 2.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    Needing to hit 1CC on an all basics mana base can really screw you over hard. It's even worse with CC cards, and also a problem with 2CC.
    That's exactly why I try to avoid playing CC/1CC/2CC cards in my two-colored decks in the first place, even when I have a full set of fancy two-colored lands, unless I have some good green ramp or color-fixing.

    I remember how I played a janky Boros deck with a full set of Leonin Warleader/Rekindling Phoenix(with Goblin Chainwhirler and Benalish Marshal, god), and was unable to play them on curve very often.

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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by leninsbeard View Post
    That's exactly why I try to avoid playing CC/1CC/2CC cards in my two-colored decks in the first place, even when I have a full set of fancy two-colored lands, unless I have some good green ramp or color-fixing.

    I remember how I played a janky Boros deck with a full set of Leonin Warleader/Rekindling Phoenix(with Goblin Chainwhirler and Benalish Marshal, god), and was unable to play them on curve very often.
    That's why you just need a better mana base. Playing worse cards because your mana base can't support the better cards is obviously a disadvantage.
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    Default Re: Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaman View Post
    That's why you just need a better mana base. Playing worse cards because your mana base can't support the better cards is obviously a disadvantage.
    Yes, but I am willing to run a worse card to reduce the chance of mana screw. I get two different colors to compensate for that, after all and multicolored cards are generally more powerful than monocolored ones.

    What I mean to say is that while, yes, the dual lands can help you with the manabase, they all come with drawbacks on their own, and they are not necessary at all if you pick low-devotion cards, or play cards like Traveller's amulet or Elvish Rejuvenator.

    There is a reason why some cards are more color-restricted than others, after all - and while for a mono-green deck there is no difference between playing a Gigantosaurus and a Colossapede, the difference is huge for multicolored ones.

    That's just an opinion though - I'm just thinking out loud, and you can disagree, of course

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