Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

[Ninjaman]

not sure if I asked...

What is the best aggro deck color combo? I bet it is either mono red or something with red in it.

I don't know why you keep expecting that there's an easy answer to these kind of questions.

[Suichimo]

So, I've wanted to build around Valduk since he was originally revealed. So far this is what I have: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/vald...ental-voltron/

4 Champion of the Flame
4 Dowsing Dagger
2 Jaya's Immolating Inferno
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Spray
22 Mountain
4 Powerstone Shard
4 Giant Spectacle
4 Tilonalli's Crown
4 Tilonalli's Summoner
4 Valduk, Keeper of the Flame

Obviously, any deck that Valduk is going to be a part of is going to be Aura/Equipment heavy. The basic idea is to just pump the crap out of him with good equips and auras to generate a ton of "Spark Elementals" and over run the enemy team. I started with good R enchantments and came up with a few choices and am currently looking at Giant Spectacle(force the opponent to lose more than one creature if they decide to block Valduk) and Tilonalli's Crown(for the Trample). Looking around, Dowsing Dagger seemed to be one of the better equipment pieces that I could find. Then, I decided that if I needed it, I should have an outlet for all of the mana that the Dowsing Dagger/Lost Vale could produce and I included Tilonalli's Summoner, more of my little elemental friends(though not as vicious), and Jaya's Immolating Inferno to just finish the game. To help with powering the Summoner and Inferno, I looked to the new mana rock that is Powerstone Shard. However, I feel like Powerstone Shard, despite the massive amounts of mana that it can generate, should probably be another piece of equipment or an enchantment to help fuel Valduk's ability. Magma Spray and Lightning Strike are just good pieces of removal to help finish larger creatures, those that can tank 3/1 elementals, off. 22 lands seems to be the correct amount, but I don't know how to calculate Dowsing Dagger/Powerstone Shard into that or if I even should.

I've thought about splashing white for Danitha, cheaper equipment and another legendary creature to turn JII online, and Sram, legendary and a good draw engine. But I can't think of much more use for white, in Standard, than them and I don't know if they would be worth it.

[Fable Wright]

not sure if I asked...

What is the best aggro deck color combo? I bet it is either mono red or something with red in it.

Depends on your definition of 'aggro'. Does it mean 'winning on turn 1'? If so, then effectively colorless decks usually win that, with Goblin Charbelcher lists, Ad Nauseum Tendrils, Oops All Spells, and in the past Flash Hulk tend to be really good at winning immediately.

If you're talking about "Puts a hand of small creatures down with some backup to push through the last points of damage", Affinity might win, which is 5-color colorless. If you're talking about linear aggro (ie, small creatures that get increasingly bigger via Lord effects), Blue would probably win with merfolk. If you're talking about decks that win or lose by turn 4, are not combo decks, and are Modern-legal, then yes, Red with splash of the day will usually take the 'count to 20' prize. If you're talking about consistent small creatures that force through damage, Death & Taxes (a white weenies build) might fit the bill.

At the end of the day, the only color that can't claim to be the best at some kind of dedicated aggro is Green, and even then that's because Tarmogoyf needs other colors to pair with. (Black gets a pass because it's the color of Ad Nauseum, Dread Return, and Ballustrade Spy, or Necropotence/Yawgwill in Vintage.)

[Ninjaman]

So, I've wanted to build around Valduk since he was originally revealed. So far this is what I have: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/vald...ental-voltron/

4 Champion of the Flame
4 Dowsing Dagger
2 Jaya's Immolating Inferno
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Spray
22 Mountain
4 Powerstone Shard
4 Giant Spectacle
4 Tilonalli's Crown
4 Tilonalli's Summoner
4 Valduk, Keeper of the Flame

Short sword should possibly be in there as an easy way to enable Champion and Valduk.
Jaya's Immolating Inferno shouldn't be in there with only 4 legendaries enabling it.

[Androgeus]

Short sword should possibly be in there as an easy way to enable Champion and Valduk.

Nah should totally be running Honed Khopesh not Short Sword.

The cartouches may be a good fit for the deck, even if they do rotate in 5 months.

[Suichimo]

Short sword should possibly be in there as an easy way to enable Champion and Valduk.
Jaya's Immolating Inferno shouldn't be in there with only 4 legendaries enabling it.

Can't say I wasn't worried about only having four legendaries for Jaya's. I was mainly looking for an outlet for all the potential mana, beyond Tilonalli's Summoner, and Jaya's is currently the only "Fireball" in standard. Maybe something will come in with Core '19.

As for the Short Swords/Honed Khopeshes, I can put them where Jaya's was.

Nah should totally be running Honed Khopesh not Short Sword.

The cartouches may be a good fit for the deck, even if they do rotate in 5 months.

I thought about the Cartouche, but I opted for larger boosts rather than a one time "can't block" effect.


Edit: Ok, guys. Here is version 2, now that I've gotten comments from here and r/deckbuilding. Link is still the same: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/vald...ental-voltron/

2 Blackblade Reforged
4 Bomat Courier
4 Cartouche of Zeal
4 Champion of the Flame
4 Dowsing Dagger
3 Honed Khopesh
3 Karn, Scion of Urza
21 Mountain
4 Prying Blade
3 Short Sword
4 Tilonalli's Summoner
4 Valduk, Keeper of the Flame

The changes amount to:
-2 Jaya's Immolating Inferno
-4 Powerstone Shard
-4 Lightning Strike
-4 Magma Spray
-4 Giant Spectacle
-4 Tilonalli's Crown
-1 Mountain

+4 Bomat Courier
+3 Honed Kopesh
+3 Short Sword
+2 Blackblade Reforged
+3 Karn, Scion of Urza
+4 Cartouche of Zeal
+4 Prying Blade


Edit 2: I'm actually not quite sure about the Karns. As strong as he is, I think he belongs in something better than just a funny little project like this. I could probably get some, and this is probably the only deck I would use him in, though.

[Tvtyrant]

I was thinking about the limits of put into play cards are and wanted some opinions.

Chronostutter (U)(G)
Sorcery
Draw a card.
Put a creature of CMC 3 or less from your hand into play tapped.

Somewhere between a creature explore effect and collected company, not inherently card advantage or vard disadvantage.

[tgva8889]

This is basically a Lotus Petal that doesn't cost a card, which is something to consider. It also allows you to cheat some costs, like that of Skaab Ruinator. I don't know how dangerous that actually is, but it's certainly possible that it's very dangerous.

[Svata]

Also, I'm pretty sure Chronostutter's already a card's name. I think it's a Griptide effect?

[Dhavaer]

Also, I'm pretty sure Chronostutter's already a card's name. I think it's a Griptide effect?

Correct.

I think homebrew Chronostutter would be reasonably balanced to bad if it didn't cantrip. Making it cantrip probably makes it overpowered. We don't need a second way to get out T2 Steel Leaf Champion.

[Svata]

Cheating of Mana Costs is always dangerous. And this filters you from GU into any color, and gets around restrictions like Myr Superion's. And it doesn't even cost you a card.

[Tvtyrant]

Cheating of Mana Costs is always dangerous. And this filters you from GU into any color, and gets around restrictions like Myr Superion's. And it doesn't even cost you a card.

Personally I feel like it is weaker then Aether Vial, and even weaker then Heartless Summoning (which sees little to no play).

[Ninjaman]

Personally I feel like it is weaker then Aether Vial, and even weaker then Heartless Summoning (which sees little to no play).

It's not really weaker if it's a completely different card. This card is "free" in a way neither of those are.

[Gauntlet]

It seems fine to me. If you're playing otherwise uncastable cards (like Skaab Ruinator and Myr Superion) to cheat this out, the deck is going to be very inconsistent since if you don't draw a cheat-in effect you're going to do nothing. Also, quite frankly, a turn two tapped 5/5 isn't any scarier than other decks in modern that play similarly sized threats on turns two or three, such as Death's Shadow, Gurmag Angler, Hollow One and so on.

If you aren't using it to jam an uncastable threat of some form, you're basically playing a Manamorphose style card that puts you up one mana in exchange for being much more restrictive on what you can spend the mana on. Any form of combo deck trying to use this to chain spells (putting in Priest of Urabrask or something?) is going to have real issues with the mana cost, since UG is not a common colour combination for the other effects that deck wants. It's not impressive in midrange decks that want to cast value 3-drops, since it's air if you don't have a 3-drop in your hand and even then half the time you can't afford to cast it because you want the creature to come in untapped and be able to block.

If it was an instant it would be 'good', but since it isn't I don't think it's good enough to see play anywhere. Aether Vial is the closest comparison, but has lots of upsides - being repeatable and instant speed are the main ones. Yeah, Vial doesn't draw a card, but it stays around to activate in future so it gives all your guys flash and uncounterable (and costs 1 rather than UG) so it is more powerful in many ways.

[Zombimode]

Sure. But when designing custom Cards are outliers like Aether Vial the Standard you should aim for?

That is not a rethorical question. I honestly don't know.


A reason for me not bothering with custom Cards - wether to design them myself or the creations of others.

[Silfir]

It reads like Collected Company after it was hit with the banhammer five times. The first blow removed the card advantage, the second got rid of card selection, the third reduced the extent to which it lets you cheat on mana, the fourth made it more difficult to cast color-wise by adding a second color, and the fifth and final blow is the loss of instant speed. In the end you get a card that does let you cheat on mana, but the conditions it imposes are so strict that there's just not much you can do with that. Lotus Petal isn't a broken card because it lets you drop tapped 3 CMC creatures on turn two, I'm pretty sure.

To get it to the point where I'd happily play it in Limited, it'd have to have card selection (top four/five cards - even with the risk of whiffing that's just more useful than a simple "Draw 1) or instant speed, and have the creature enter untapped.

Though the name "Chronostutter" to me evokes the suspend mechanic, and that might be another way to get a stronger card by expanding its flexibility:

Chronosummon UG
Sorcery
Draw a card.
You may exile a creature card from your hand and put X time counters on it, where X is that card's converted mana cost minus two, or 1, whichever is higher. If that card doesn't have suspend, it gains suspend.

[Gauntlet]

Sure. But when designing custom Cards are outliers like Aether Vial the Standard you should aim for?

That is not a rethorical question. I honestly don't know.


A reason for me not bothering with custom Cards - wether to design them myself or the creations of others.

I usually aim for 'playable in at least one format competitively (including Commander), but not ubiquitous', unless I'm specifically thinking about a Limited card.

Aether Vial is approximately the power level I'd like to aim for, to be honest. Sees play in a few different decks in two formats, but doesn't dominate either format and is nowhere near the most-played cards in those formats.

[Dhavaer]

Sideboarding question!

I'm now reasonably happy with my Esper Control deck, and I think I have a reasonable sideboarding plan for the control mirror (in the deck description). I'm not sure what I want to be taking out for aggro, though. I want to bring Authority and Lyra in, but my best guess as to what to take out is Azcanta (one or both?) and/or Disallow (don't want to get caught without double blue, Supreme Will should be fine for the most important part of the game and cycles later). If I could drop enough things to bring in Gearhulks (to recur Contempt) or The Scarab God (because Hazored can't deal with him) that would be even better.

And since we're doing custom cards:

Deathflame Volley
R
Sorcery

Kicker 3B

Deathflame Volley deals 1 damage to each creature. If the kicker was paid, Deathflame Volley has deathtouch.

[Silfir]

Mass removal of 1/1s for R is aggressive. Not outright broken, I suppose.

As far the upgrade to hard mass removal for 3B - that doesn't feel quite right. Red doesn't get this effect at all, and Black has to play at least BB for it; it'd have to end up 2BBR at least. (So: Kicker 2BB.)

The main thing about it that bothers me design-wise is that while the unkicked version has a purely red effect, the kicked version completely transforms that red effect into a black one. Compare to a card like Agonizing Demise, where the red Kicker cost only adds a very red direct damage effect, and the original black kill effect is untouched.

[Dhavaer]

Mass removal of 1/1s for R is aggressive. Not outright broken, I suppose.

As far the upgrade to hard mass removal for 3B - that doesn't feel quite right. Red doesn't get this effect at all, and Black has to play at least BB for it; it'd have to end up 2BBR at least. (So: Kicker 2BB.)

The main thing about it that bothers me design-wise is that while the unkicked version has a purely red effect, the kicked version completely transforms that red effect into a black one. Compare to a card like Agonizing Demise, where the red Kicker cost only adds a very red direct damage effect, and the original black kill effect is untouched.

Unkicked it is strictly worse than Blazing Volley, which seems fair given the flexibility.

On multicolour cards a pip of the secondary colour can replace the second pip of the primary colour for an effect that would usually require two; for example, Psychic Strike is a hard, unconditional counter for 1UB, which mono-Blue would require UU for.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Pretty sure that Maro has said that we'll likely never get spells with deathtouch in black border.

[Gauntlet]

Sideboarding question!

I'm now reasonably happy with my Esper Control deck, and I think I have a reasonable sideboarding plan for the control mirror (in the deck description). I'm not sure what I want to be taking out for aggro, though. I want to bring Authority and Lyra in, but my best guess as to what to take out is Azcanta (one or both?) and/or Disallow (don't want to get caught without double blue, Supreme Will should be fine for the most important part of the game and cycles later). If I could drop enough things to bring in Gearhulks (to recur Contempt) or The Scarab God (because Hazored can't deal with him) that would be even better.

Commit // Memory is probably too slow to be good against aggro decks.
Disallow is indeed a bit awkward against fast aggro, since holding up mana on turn 3 may get you beaten to death by their 1- and 2-drops.
Search is a bit slow and you often won't be able to afford to tap out for it.
Teferi might be a bit slow too, and he isn't fantastic at stabilizing, but you do need some form of finisher / card advantage somewhere in the deck, so might be worth keeping in.
If you're cutting some of the expensive high-mana top end cards, you can also potentially cut a land or two.

[Dhavaer]

Commit // Memory is probably too slow to be good against aggro decks.
Disallow is indeed a bit awkward against fast aggro, since holding up mana on turn 3 may get you beaten to death by their 1- and 2-drops.
Search is a bit slow and you often won't be able to afford to tap out for it.
Teferi might be a bit slow too, and he isn't fantastic at stabilizing, but you do need some form of finisher / card advantage somewhere in the deck, so might be worth keeping in.
If you're cutting some of the expensive high-mana top end cards, you can also potentially cut a land or two.

This sounds pretty good to me. Definitely:

-1 Commit
-2 Azcanta
-1 Disallow
+3 Authority
+1 Lyra

and possibly some combination of:
-3 Disallow
-2 Approach
-2 Field of Ruin
+3 Gearhulk
+1 Scarab God

On the one hand I like the lifegain from Approach, but on the other the Gearhulks could help stabilise more. I'll see how it goes.

[Gauntlet]

I think the important thing with your finishers will be having them come down early enough to be relevant, and stabilise the board. I think I'd probably side out the Approaches, just because 7 mana is a real problem for you to get to.

I'd probably cut the Approaches and the Field of Ruins for Scarab God and Gearhulks. Tempted to say you should be on a 2/2 Gearhulk / TSG split rather than 3/1, since TSG costs less mana which is pretty important (especially when siding out lands).

[Dhavaer]

I think the important thing with your finishers will be having them come down early enough to be relevant, and stabilise the board. I think I'd probably side out the Approaches, just because 7 mana is a real problem for you to get to.

I'd probably cut the Approaches and the Field of Ruins for Scarab God and Gearhulks. Tempted to say you should be on a 2/2 Gearhulk / TSG split rather than 3/1, since TSG costs less mana which is pretty important (especially when siding out lands).

I would do that but I only have the one Scrabbles, and it's rotating so soon it doesn't seem worth buying. Sounds like a good plan.

[Silfir]

Unkicked it is strictly worse than Blazing Volley, which seems fair given the flexibility.

On multicolour cards a pip of the secondary colour can replace the second pip of the primary colour for an effect that would usually require two; for example, Psychic Strike is a hard, unconditional counter for 1UB, which mono-Blue would require UU for.

I went looking and indeed found two more hard counterspells that are exceptions from the UU requirement; Dromar's Charm (WUB) and Fall of the Gavel (3WU). I'd be careful using them as clear indicators since the more recent Temur Charm (URG) only has Mana Leak on it (and there are plenty of things charms have done that are discouraged these days, like Esper Charm's instant speed discard), and there are far more multicolored hard counters that do require UU. I'll certainly concede Fall of the Gavel and Psychic Strike, though - it seems the Azorius and Dimir guilds can channel their non-blue colors to produce effects that fit the flavor of the Guild as a whole.

As for mass creature destruction, the only exception of sorts I've found is Magister of Worth at 4BW; it's easier to argue that Black or White can stand in for the other color for this effect since those are the colors that could do it on their own. (It's also, however, a card designed for Conspiracy, a multiplayer format - where it doesn't have unconditional mass creature destruction.)

An example worth discussing is Terminate (BR), in which replacing the second Black pip of Murder is not only possible, it's paired with a reduction in CMC and a bonus "no regeneration" effect. But then, unconditional creature removal in Black isn't as much of a BB thing as hard counters is a UU thing, as seen in Dominaria's Eviscerate.

I'll concede that it's not impossible for a card to have unconditional mass creature removal without either WW, BB, WB or {W/B}{W/B} involved, but I'd classify it as at least highly unlikely. Mass creature removal is just a much rarer and much more powerful effect than hard counterspells.

[tgva8889]

Deathflame Volley
R
Sorcery

Kicker 3B

Deathflame Volley deals 1 damage to each creature. If the kicker was paid, Deathflame Volley has deathtouch.

I get what you're trying to do, but there's no reason for this card not to just say "Then, if the kicker cost was paid, destroy each creature dealt damage in this way" or something. That's actually just clearer than giving the spell deathtouch.

[Bucky]

We have a new set, and that means it's infinite combo hunting time again. I think I have something that'll work with a bit of work, but it'd be a very unusual flavor of infinite combo that I don't think I've ever seen before.

Meanwhile, I'm curious about what y'all will come up with.

[Ninjaman]

We have a new set, and that means it's infinite combo hunting time again. I think I have something that'll work with a bit of work, but it'd be a very unusual flavor of infinite combo that I don't think I've ever seen before.

Meanwhile, I'm curious about what y'all will come up with.

I've got one-

Requirements:

4 Jhoira's Familiar
Helm of the host (having made an additional familiar)
2 Guardians of Koilos
Anything that triggers off historic permanents. (Cabal Paladin might be the best)



Edit:
You can also have Thraxos, Helm of the Host making four tokens of him, Song of Freyalise and the two Guardians, either along with the Cabal Paladin, or just a fifth token for infinite mana.

[Androgeus]

We have a new set, and that means it's infinite combo hunting time again. I think I have something that'll work with a bit of work, but it'd be a very unusual flavor of infinite combo that I don't think I've ever seen before.

Meanwhile, I'm curious about what y'all will come up with.

Don't know if this is the direction you are going but I think this might work. It also has the benefit of using the best character in the game.

Spoiler

Show

Cards in this combo:

• Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle
• Squee, the Immortal
• Goblin Warchief
• Skirk Prospector

And one of:

• Cabal Paladin
• Diligent Excavator
• Goblin Chainwhirler

With Teshar, Squee, Warchief and Prospector in play, you can sacrifice Squee and Prospector to Prospector to make 2 red mana. Use this mana to cast Squee from the grave (He only costs RR due to Warchief). Casting Squee triggers Teshar, letting you return a thing costing 3 or less, and what so happens to cost less than 3 mana? Storm Crow Skirk Prospector. Once Squee finishes resolving you are back were you started.

You can then use one of the other 3 cards to turn it in to a game winning loop. n.b. Goblin Chainwhirler variant requires sacrificing the Chainwhirler instead of the Prospector to Prospector.

Another thing to note is that you can combo off if you have Teshar on the battlefield and the other pieces in the graveyard (except if you are using Cabal Paladin)